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So are we going to talk about Seattle?

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I think all hospitals are barring visitors right now. They're certainly doing that in Houston. That's mainly to protect the visitors from being exposed to Covid which is a very real possibility here right now given our growth curve. 

You're taking a risk by going to an outdoor protest, but you're taking a much, much larger risk by entering a hospital without PPE right now.

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29 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

 No, Lucy, you completely missed the point. A person is not allowed to see her dying mom or people not allowed to attend funerals while thousands of people protest with 0 distancing and George Floyd got to have 3 huge funerals with thousands and thousands in attendance with 0distamcing. That's what she meant. Such double standards. 

I'm not missing the point, I am rejecting the point because all it is is blaming one thing on another that did not cause it. 

There were large protests *because people wanted to get their hair done and eat in restaurants* that this woman's employer (The Blaze) praised.  Blaze also amplified voices for weeks into months saying that Covid is no big deal and was a hoax. 

The double standards in our culture right now are hardly limited to supporters of BLM.  Remember too that some BLM supporters were actively discouraging participation in in-person protests because of the pandemic.  Things are not so simple or one-sided.  

The pandemic is awful and has cost many families precious and valuable time.  At the same time, the BLM protests are not what is keeping a daughter from her mother's death bed.  These remain unrelated events.  The pandemic remains the cause of those restrictions.  I haven't seen the Blaze retract any of the objectively false statements it made about the pandemic. 

Edited by LucyStoner
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10 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I'm not missing the point, I am rejecting the point because all it is is blaming one thing on another that did not cause it. 

There were large protests *because people wanted to get their hair done and eat in restaurants* that this woman's employer (The Blaze) praised.  Blaze also amplified voices for weeks into months saying that Covid is no big deal and was a hoax. 

The double standards in our culture right now are hardly limited to supporters of BLM.  Remember too that some BLM supporters were actively discouraging participation in in-person protests because of the pandemic.  Things are not so simple or one-sided.  

The pandemic is awful and has cost many families precious and valuable time.  At the same time, the BLM protests are not what is keeping a daughter from her mother's death bed.  These remain unrelated events.  The pandemic remains the cause of those restrictions.  I haven't seen the Blaze retract any of the objectively false statements it made about the pandemic. 

People are not allowed to attend funerals because of pandemic restrictions and people were allowed to attend a man's three funerals and allowed to BLM protest with 0 distancing. This is what I meant. So what is wrong with saying this? I do not want to discuss Autumn but this general observation. 

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31 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I think all hospitals are barring visitors right now. They're certainly doing that in Houston. That's mainly to protect the visitors from being exposed to Covid which is a very real possibility here right now given our growth curve. 

You're taking a risk by going to an outdoor protest, but you're taking a much, much larger risk by entering a hospital without PPE right now.

I was exposed by four people who had CV or are having it, one Native American with three family members just died from CV, one Honduras guy, one nurse who had CV and still had not recovered her sense of smell and works at a CV ward and infected her own mom who is still in critical condition. None of them had masks on. This was at a volunteer place serving and giving out free groceries indoors. I wa sitting with them at a dining table eating lunch indoors and they shared this info. I won't surprised if I get CV. Hopefully not. I would not put myself in that kind of situation if I had know beforehand. 

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

I think it's that the state and local governments aren't putting the kibosh on protests (or at least the messaging here surrounding them is mostly positive) and yet are still enforcing social distancing policy for other things like funerals and such. Maybe it's just my local area, but state officials seemed to have painted themselves into a corner, in that no one trusts them to be objectively enforcing any kind of gathering guidelines. And it seems all political, not based on science or public health.

I did not dig into her Twitter account, but hers isn't the first or only tweet or post along those lines.

More than a month ago the government here allowed a permit to be issued for a large outdoor Christian service, even though gatherings of that size were not allowed at the time. It was with the caveat that social distancing be maintained. It wasn’t and nothing was done. The same with outdoor open up rallies. So no inconsistency here with allowing recent outdoor marches and protests. 
 

I’ve actually only heard of one instance here of someone being charged for defying the restrictions. And that was likely because it was indoors, close contact (hairdresser) and she made a big, public deal out of it and invited people to gather and rally for her. As far as I know, the focus has almost completely been on education.
 

As for restrictions on visitors at hospitals, senior facilities, etc., I think many places would be doing it no matter what the government said. My mom’s place certainly locked harder and sooner than required by the state. As did my husband’s hospital. Even during regular flu season they have very strict visitation policies. Indoors with vulnerable populations is extremely high risk.

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38 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

People are not allowed to attend funerals because of pandemic restrictions and people were allowed to attend a man's three funerals and allowed to BLM protest with 0 distancing. This is what I meant. So what is wrong with saying this? I do not want to discuss Autumn but this general observation. 

No one is allowing people to protest, people are just doing it.  You saw the devastation of the riots and you worked with your community to help clean up.  Do you think that there is a practical and safe way to stop people from protesting police brutality right now?  Without more problems than the protests on their own?  

Why did armed men protest in my state and other states over covid restrictions and not get gassed, shot at with rubber bullets or arrested?  I think that for some, the disparity in how those white conservative leaning protesters were treated by law enforcement and how BLM protesters were treated is dialing up people's desire to take to the streets and stay on the streets.  Tamir Rice dies for playing with a toy gun at age 12, George Floyd dies for suspicion of a minor crime, Beonna Taylor dies while sleeping yet Dylan Roof and white people who have committed serious crimes and are armed when they were apprehended come into custody alive?  It grows old.  Trump is about to hold a big rally, is anyone at the Blaze upset about that?  What is the difference between a rally and protest in terms of public health concerns during a pandemic?  

Autumn seems to be a voice on the right that does care about systemic racism and police brutality.  I commend her for that.  Unfortunately, she works for a media site that is definitely fueling double standards between types of protesters and a very low level of discourse around the pandemic.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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10 hours ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

I was exposed by four people who had CV or are having it, one Native American with three family members just died from CV, one Honduras guy, one nurse who had CV and still had not recovered her sense of smell and works at a CV ward and infected her own mom who is still in critical condition. None of them had masks on. This was at a volunteer place serving and giving out free groceries indoors. I wa sitting with them at a dining table eating lunch indoors and they shared this info. I won't surprised if I get CV. Hopefully not. I would not put myself in that kind of situation if I had know beforehand. 

 

I am sorry to hear that!!! For them very sorry — 3 relatives dead of it for the one person and mother in critical condition for the nurse sounds extremely rough.

 

In your position I would do what I could think of as available home remedy stuff...   MATH++ recommendations...

 

ETA: aren’t there mask wearing requirements at least? It seems like a lot of people in addition to you will have been exposed.  I wonder if something should be said to the management? 

 

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Did anyone ever figure out if the $20 actually was a forged bill? I have wondered if it was a set-up situation .

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6 hours ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

People are not allowed to attend funerals because of pandemic restrictions and people were allowed to attend a man's three funerals and allowed to BLM protest with 0 distancing. This is what I meant. So what is wrong with saying this? I do not want to discuss Autumn but this general observation. 

The viewing and funeral in Houston were socially distanced and enforced mask wearing. Speakers did take off their masks to speak so there are pictures of them but they were on a dais that was distanced from the attendees. I think the City of Houston did its best effort to make the viewing and funeral as safe as possible and managed to avoid sparking looting. I'm proud of my city's response.

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6 hours ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

I was exposed by four people who had CV or are having it, one Native American with three family members just died from CV, one Honduras guy, one nurse who had CV and still had not recovered her sense of smell and works at a CV ward and infected her own mom who is still in critical condition. None of them had masks on. This was at a volunteer place serving and giving out free groceries indoors. I wa sitting with them at a dining table eating lunch indoors and they shared this info. I won't surprised if I get CV. Hopefully not. I would not put myself in that kind of situation if I had know beforehand. 

Wow, that's awful!!! Why were these people not self isolating? Why were you sitting at a table with them? Are you self-isolating at home now, especially from your high risk son? 

I thought my area of Houston (which has many Covid skeptics) was being lackadaisical about safety, but honestly, we're doing much better than this. Actually, since the local news has been full of the sharp rise in Covid cases, I haven't seen many people without masks and they're getting the stink eye and a wide berth. Are things that much worse in Minnesota? 

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Are you self-isolating at home now, especially from your high risk son? 

 

👍👍👍As much separation, mask wearing etc.,  at home as possible, especially from high risk child for 2 weeks self quarantine sounds like an excellent idea!!! 👍👍👍

 

4 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Wow, that's awful!!! Why were these people not self isolating?

 

It sounded to me like the nurse is probably considered recovered, and might now, so long as she has cleaned up from caring for patients actually be very low transmission risk.  

The Native American who lost family members may not have been infected and might have been past quarantine time. 🤷‍♀️  But both should probably have been masked whenever not eating to be on safer side.  And eating should have been staggered and/or physically distanced with plexiglass shield or similar.  Don’t know much about the situation as to likely already recovered for the 3 other than the nurse.  Loss of smell seems to be something that many CV19 recovered people have persisting after they are no longer infectious though.  And we know from other viruses in past that for some, loss of smell may be permanent. 

I guess unless they told Jade why they weren’t self isolated there’s no way to know.  But it is s good lesson for all of us to understand that people may not be self isolating when perhaps they should be. And that’s true even if not the situation for these who perhaps were tested and told they did not need to. 

Public Meals should probably be done much more separately— There is a  thread about this  in work context. 

 

 

 

Quote

Why were you sitting at a table with them?

 

Jade said she was eating with them and would not have if she had known beforehand.    

I think the learning curve can be steep and hard, I know I had a few encounters in February and early March where I realized in retrospect that I should have done something differently (like left a business that had a man there who seemed clearly sick with CV19 typical symptoms and no mask—it was my favorite UPS store, but I could have driven to another, I guess, I was mid transaction, or at least walked out and waited outside till he was done;  not accepted a social hug from an old friend I ran into at a store—neither of us masked ..., etc) , but luckily CV19 infection rate in city I was in was probably fairly low still. 

 

Almost  anyone we meet could have CV19 so we probably need to make decisions as if we already **do** know beforehand that each person we encounter may be CV19 positive.  

@JadeOrchidSong did you have a mask on except for during eating? And how long and how close were you to the others during eating? Especially the ones other than the nurse, as nurse seems the one most likely to be post infectious period unless she indicated otherwise. 

 

How long was the total time spent in that indoors place?

 

 

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here's the latest - the protestors are going outside their zone.  (map of zone.)  the business is located across the street - so immediately adjacent to the zone.

a business owner caught the suspect who broke into his business, stole cash, stole car keys, set a fire. - the protestors forced him to release him. 

the business is on the other side of the barricade, and no - law enforcement and fire did not respond.  (the police precinct is a block south - and that has been taken over by the protestors so police must come from further away.)

this isn't "rumor". this is a named, specific business, with the business owner talking to the local media.

 

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Thanks for the links.  I would say that if things are degrading now then I hope this breaks apart naturally.  We shall see, but some crime is going to happen anywhere there are people, here’s to hoping this doesn’t cause a big spike, right?

Seems like it’s gone fairly well so far, actually. At least the past few days.

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3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

here's the latest - the protestors are going outside their zone.  (map of zone.)  the business is located across the street - so immediately adjacent to the zone.

a business owner caught the suspect who broke into his business, stole cash, stole car keys, set a fire. - the protestors forced him to release him. 

the business is on the other side of the barricade, and no - law enforcement and fire did not respond.  (the police precinct is a block south - and that has been taken over by the protestors so police must come from further away.)

this isn't "rumor". this is a named, specific business, with the business owner talking to the local media.

 

It's absolutely not ok.  It doesn't help the aims of the protesters at all and the business owner needs to be able to get police assistance during a robbery.  

That picture of the zone is not where the boundaries are.  https://chaz.zone/

Edited by LucyStoner

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On 6/15/2020 at 5:04 PM, gardenmom5 said:

here's the latest - the protestors are going outside their zone.  (map of zone.)  the business is located across the street - so immediately adjacent to the zone.

a business owner caught the suspect who broke into his business, stole cash, stole car keys, set a fire. - the protestors forced him to release him. 

the business is on the other side of the barricade, and no - law enforcement and fire did not respond.  (the police precinct is a block south - and that has been taken over by the protestors so police must come from further away.)

this isn't "rumor". this is a named, specific business, with the business owner talking to the local media.

 

Thanks for sharing. I was about to share the same news. Also, this business is said to be 100 yards from the zone. LucyStone says it's not in the zone. That's true. but being 100 yards away is real close and the man might be a zone-r. 

Of course this crime does not help their aims. But what would? 

 

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22 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

Thanks for sharing. I was about to share the same news. Also, this business is said to be 100 yards from the zone. LucyStone says it's not in the zone. That's true. but being 100 yards away is real close and the man might be a zone-r. 

Of course this crime does not help their aims. But what would? 

 

I said it was adjacent, not in it.  If you look at the map of the chop zone - it is right across the street, much closer than 100 yards.   here is video of protestors crossing the street,  knocking down his chain link fence, and attempting to surround and intimidate him.  fortunately there were some saner heads among the protestors, but if they hadn't been there, this guy would have been in serious trouble.

Here's a picture of the auto shop and its proximity to the chaz/chop zone.  I have gotten this picture off the internet, and circled the shop.  

 

here is a local new story, that includes interviews with people who live in the zone - and are refusing to go to their own homes during this time.  they've couch surfed with friends, and at least one is staying in a hotel.  

InkedCUSTOM_MAP_Seattle_Capital_Hill_Autonomous_Zone_Precint_LI.jpg

Edited by gardenmom5
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4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I said it was adjacent, not in it.  If you look at the map of the chop zone - it is right across the street, much closer than 100 yards.   here is video of protestors crossing the street,  knocking down his chain link fence, and attempting to surround and intimidate him.  fortunately there were some saner heads among the protestors, but if they hadn't been there, this guy would have been in serious trouble.

Here's a picture of the auto shop and its proximity to the chaz/chop zone.  I have gotten this picture off the internet, and circled the shop.  

 

here is a local new story, that includes interviews with people who live in the zone - and are refusing to go to their own homes during this time.  they've couch surfed with friends, and at least one is staying in a hotel.  

InkedCUSTOM_MAP_Seattle_Capital_Hill_Autonomous_Zone_Precint_LI.jpg

Yes, I would get the hell out of that place, too. In fact we moved to my parents in law's house for three nights when Minneapolis was being destroyed and burned on May 28-30 because the four pharmacies I tried to use to pick up my son's insulin were looted, burned, looted, and looted one after another and we had to go to my in-law's city to get insulin. When we came back, we immediately joined the neighborhood defense team of 20 people taking two shifts defending our small grocery store and deterred two arson attempts! The team were armed with baseball bats, pickaxes, and a few guns. Thank God we defended the place. I am very angry and emotional about the massive damages. 

I can't believe how these anarchists are being grorified and pampered by some people. No, I would not stay  if my home were in that zone. I would not want to live where tents were set up in front of my house for who knows how long. 

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1 minute ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

Yes, I would get the hell out of that place, too. In fact we moved to my parents in law's house for three nights when Minneapolis was being destroyed and burned on May 28-30 because the four pharmacies I tried to use to pick up my son's insulin were looted, burned, looted, and looted one after another and we had to go to my in-law's city to get insulin. When we came back, we immediately joined the neighborhood defense team of 20 people taking two shifts defending our small grocery store and deterred two arson attempts! The team were armed with baseball bats, pickaxes, and a few guns. Thank God we defended the place. I am very angry and emotional about the massive damages. 

I can't believe how these anarchists are being grorified and pampered by some people. No, I would not stay  if my home were in that zone. I would not want to live where tents were set up in front of my house for who knows how long. 

one person in the news article said they'd move - but they're afraid to try and bring a moving truck into the zone.  (let alone get it back out.)

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58 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

one person in the news article said they'd move - but they're afraid to try and bring a moving truck into the zone.  (let alone get it back out.)

So ridiculous! Speechless!

Edited by JadeOrchidSong
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another video from car tenders.  things are calm on the surface, but they're making threats.

his business was robbed of cash and keys, and the robber set the counter on fire.  

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7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

another video from car tenders.  things are calm on the surface, but they're making threats.

his business was robbed of cash and keys, and the robber set the counter on fire.  

I wish there were an WTM emoji to show anger, but here it is 😡😡😡 

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Teacher Tom's post about the zone today:  

"Humans are so resilient!" We've all heard it these past few months, an expression of astonishment that we are somehow managing to survive, even thrive, in the face of the challenges. And it's true that we, as a species, are adaptable. The flip side, of course, is that those who can't adjust to their changing environment will suffer and even perish.
 
When someone expresses amazement about resiliency I understand that more often than not, they are celebrating that someone has overcome something, be it the loss of income, a business, a house, our a spouse, emerging on the other side, perhaps not better off than before, but certainly different. I'm thinking right now of the generation that grew up with the deprivations of the Great Depression. The "resilient" ones are most often those who learned to economize and that adaptation is still evident today in many of our oldest citizens who have never fully unlearned the lessons of scrimping and saving. Many tout this adaptation as an admirable trait, one to be emulated, while others find those same behaviors depressingly Scrooge-like. 
 
Pandemics, economic depressions, wars, natural disasters, and revolutions are the kinds of obvious, massive events that test our resiliency, but we are also tested every day through our personal challenges as well: illness, job loss, conflict, and other strife. Whether we thrive or not, whether we survive or not, is unknown, but what is certain is that we won't emerge the same as when we went in. And there's no going back: that is in the nature of transformation for better or worse.
 
Children are no less resilient than adults. Indeed, I would argue that in most cases they are more adaptable, probably because they have less history with the way things always have been and are therefore less prone to clinging to the "good old days." In other words, they tend to be more open to transformation, not so much because they crave change, because many don't, but because they are accustomed to having little or no power to control anything but their own response to it.
 
It is those with the most to lose, the most powerful, who we see engaged in the Sisyphean project of fighting against change. We have an entire federal administration in the US that is simply declaring that the pandemic is over, not because it is, but because they must get back to the business of consolidating their power. We have American businesses pushing to "re-open" the economy ahead of the schedule recommended by pandemic experts in order to get back to the business of refilling their depleted coffers. They fear that if we don't get back to "normal" soon, they will find themselves deprived of their power and wealth. 
 
And then there are white people who are doing everything they can to resist the dismantling of the systems of white supremacy. They fear that the toppling of the hierarchy of race and the deconstruction of the myth of merit will rob them of the unearned power of their privilege. 
 
When we look over the short history of the United States, we see a nation of resilience, one that has adapted and evolved, but the single most resilient aspect of our culture is not freedom or justice or apple pie. It is white supremacy. It adapted to abolition. It adapted to civil war. It adapted to the end of Jim Crow. It adapted to voting rights, civil rights, desegregation, and every other effort at racial progress, time and again not going away, but simply adapting itself to the new landscape. Surface change, while it might make us feel good and may even be a true expression of our hopes and dreams, is not enough to kill a virus as adaptable and resilient as systemic racism. 
 

I'm not smart enough to know if the pandemic played a part in the Black Lives Matters earthquake that is shaking the world right now, but the foundations are nevertheless shaking, and it's making a lot of white people nervous. And I'm nervous too, in all honesty, because change can be frightening, but this hierarchy of race that has adapted itself to every aspect of our lives makes racists of even the "best" people. 

 

"Humans are so resilient!" This is true of our human systems as well, and not always for our betterment. 

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Terabith, the pandemic is not ending soon. And the economy cannot be shut down until a vaccine is found. We need to live with virus and have a balance. Not one extreme, not the other extreme either. 

 

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1 hour ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

Terabith, the pandemic is not ending soon. And the economy cannot be shut down until a vaccine is found. We need to live with virus and have a balance. Not one extreme, not the other extreme either. 

 

I’m confused how this relates to what Terabith just posted. Wrong thread, maybe?

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I think the whole thing is a very interesting experiment and I would like to see the government kind of keep hands off for a while to see what happens. I would like some unbiased people (don't know if they exist) to monitor and document what is going on. This would not be for the purpose or regulating them but rather to take advantage of what we can learn from what is going on. Also..we need to stay hands off if this were to work..no sending in police, ambulances, fire trucks, etc. 

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2 hours ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

Terabith, the pandemic is not ending soon. And the economy cannot be shut down until a vaccine is found. We need to live with virus and have a balance. Not one extreme, not the other extreme either. 

 

I'm totally confused.  

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52 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I think the whole thing is a very interesting experiment and I would like to see the government kind of keep hands off for a while to see what happens. I would like some unbiased people (don't know if they exist) to monitor and document what is going on. This would not be for the purpose or regulating them but rather to take advantage of what we can learn from what is going on. Also..we need to stay hands off if this were to work..no sending in police, ambulances, fire trucks, etc. 

100% this. 👍👍👍

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5 hours ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

Terabith, the pandemic is not ending soon. And the economy cannot be shut down until a vaccine is found. We need to live with virus and have a balance. Not one extreme, not the other extreme either. 

 

Totally agree with you!!!

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Okay, look, I am not arguing for the economy to be completely shut down until there's a vaccine.  But I am SUPER confused.  I have said NOTHING about covid or the economy in this thread.  All I did was post content from a blog of a friend who lives in Seattle and has been hanging out in the CHAZ area about his observations.  He referenced the pandemic as part of the general societal context for this, but a) it wasn't my words, and b) that was SOOOOOOOO not the main point of his article.  

I'm happy to talk pandemic stuff, but this isn't the thread for it.  

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4 hours ago, Janeway said:

I think the whole thing is a very interesting experiment and I would like to see the government kind of keep hands off for a while to see what happens. I would like some unbiased people (don't know if they exist) to monitor and document what is going on. This would not be for the purpose or regulating them but rather to take advantage of what we can learn from what is going on. Also..we need to stay hands off if this were to work..no sending in police, ambulances, fire trucks, etc. 

please go tell that to the residents and business owners who live in/near this zone.

they're begging the police to come back.  here's another one, where a resident witnessed the same person stealing on at least two separate occasions and felt threatened by the thief and could only go in their apartment and lock the door.

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Gardenmom5, I think I understand what Janeway was trying to say, so I said "100% this". Now that more autonomous zones sprung up, I think it is best that this illegal establishment be taken down very early on. they have no right blocking normal residents' streets and pathway. And those supplying their free this and free that are enabling such irresponsible behavior. This is my opinion. I do support your point of view. 

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Terabith, please accept my apology. I am in the wrong for picking one thing in the article you shared. 🙏️ 

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21 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-officers-responding-to-shootings-met-with-hostile-crowds/571390012/ Similar thing happened last night in Minneapolis. At GF memorial Site, one man shot himself dead. A few blocks away two shootings happened. At both places, the police met hostility, barred from getting access to the victims. There is more chaos in Minneapolis. Last night, this happened in Uptown ⬇️

 

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4 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-officers-responding-to-shootings-met-with-hostile-crowds/571390012/ Similar thing happened last night in Minneapolis. At GF memorial Site, one man shot himself dead. A few blocks away two shootings happened. At both places, the police met hostility, barred from getting access to the victims. There is more chaos in Minneapolis. Last night, this happened in Uptown

Policing effectively really really requires community trust at least in a free non authoritarian culture.  This is highlighting what happens when (rightly or wrongly) that sense of trust is broken.  

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Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

Policing effectively really really requires community trust at least in a free non authoritarian culture.  This is highlighting what happens when (rightly or wrongly) that sense of trust is broken.  

 

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

Policing effectively really really requires community trust at least in a free non authoritarian culture.  This is highlighting what happens when (rightly or wrongly) that sense of trust is broken.  

"Justice for the minority should trump order for the majority," one Bible teacher just said about this situation. 

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On 6/13/2020 at 6:56 PM, Arctic Mama said:

And as someone coming from the other side of this than you, I’ve seen the same thing.  Using shaming or cancelling to shut down vigorous debate.  Using ‘tolerance’ as an excuse to silence and deplatform whatever ‘isn’t tolerable’, which is all well and good when you disagree with what is on the other side.  But eventually one may find they are the ones or hold the beliefs and views now deemed intolerable.  
 

Free speech means freedom for everyone, including and especially dissenting voices, however minority it may be.  And depersonalizing or removing enough emotional reaction from the equation to actually hear one another instead of just reacting.  It’s such a double edged sword that’s been created, and becomes very baiting when discussions are salted with things like “.... and any (terf, racist, sexist, etc etc) will out themselves in just a moment here in commenting and discussion” - this prejudging nonsense I’ve seen where a view must just be stated like it’s fact and any disagreement is inherently indicative of the quality of the character of the person on the other side.

That nonsense is toxic, even and especially in such difficult and personal discussions as sex, race, politics, religion, individual rights, community obligation, etc. 

It is the most illiberal and anti-intellectual impulse and destroys rather than builds up.  And in the last year or two I feel like someone dumped growth hormone on the public discourse and this destructive seed spread like wildfire.

Someone has and it was proven (Russia was proven to have fomented discourse by putting out inflammatory posts on all kinds of social media and also making up rallies for people on both sides of an issue so they can have problems when they both had rallies advertised in the same locations or nearby locations),  That was in 2016,  Since that time, I think other unfriendly nations have problably joined in spreading stuff to make people hate on each other.  

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6 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

 

"Justice for the minority should trump order for the majority," one Bible teacher just said about this situation. 

I started reading a little about the law and order versus rule of law way of thinking about policing as posted by Pam somewhere on the forum.  It’s quite interesting.  Even looking into policing history of us versus uk versus Australia you can see how different historical backgrounds seem to have influenced the way things are done.  Dh likes to watch the police shows and I have always been surprised by how differently the US to Aus ones present.  (Not that we don’t have problems here of course, we do.)

I don’t know about individual situations but I think ultimately order has to follow justice.  If you have order maintained at the expense of justice eventually disorder will happen.   But turning these kind of idealogical things into practical social measures is a very different thing to talking about them of course.

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The summer of love picnic seems pretty violent and nasty to me.  I guess we all have different definitions.  That’s not a world I’d want to live in.  

Shootings last night in CHOP.  I think the mayor needs to decide and announce clearly whether the protestors now control that area or the city does.  It’s unfair to the police who were called in to help the shooting victims and treated so ugly by the mob, yet can’t do anything.  If the protestors are in control, don’t call the police. Maybe the mayor should be on call instead and go in at night. The media and left have divided this country way more than the people themselves have done over the past decade. 

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https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/shooting-seattle-protest-zone-leaves-wounded-71378362#click=https://t.co/WtRQlfBJYI
another person wounded in a second shooting.  
 

This seems drastic but I realise I’m lacking the US perspective to know how common shootings are in the area?  I mean in Aus any shooting makes the news but it seems like they are less of a big deal in the US?

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4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This seems drastic but I realise I’m lacking the US perspective to know how common shootings are in the area?  I mean in Aus any shooting makes the news but it seems like they are less of a big deal in the US?

 

This is not normal.

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34 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

This is not normal.

Well, not normal for that area.  It would be a light shooting weekend for some parts of the US, where the violence never really gets reported beyond a footnote nationally 😞

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicago-fathers-day-weekend-shootings-homicide-gun-violence-june-19-22

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6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/shooting-seattle-protest-zone-leaves-wounded-71378362#click=https://t.co/WtRQlfBJYI
another person wounded in a second shooting.  
 

This seems drastic but I realise I’m lacking the US perspective to know how common shootings are in the area?  I mean in Aus any shooting makes the news but it seems like they are less of a big deal in the US?

Shootings on Capitol Hill are pretty rare.  To have shootings two nights in a row anywhere in Seattle is alarming and it’s definitely dampening enthusiasm for the zone locally.  After the first one a false story circulated that it was someone who had come to “deal with” CHAZ/CHOP.  That did not turn out to be the case.  My guess is that fewer people will be staying there overnight in the week ahead.  

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14 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Shootings on Capitol Hill are pretty rare.  To have shootings two nights in a row anywhere in Seattle is alarming and it’s definitely dampening enthusiasm for the zone locally.  After the first one a false story circulated that it was someone who had come to “deal with” CHAZ/CHOP.  That did not turn out to be the case.  My guess is that fewer people will be staying there overnight in the week ahead.  

Thank you.  I’m glad that it’s not a regular thing though disappointed things went south I guess.  

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Councilmember Sawant immediately claimed it was right wing outsiders.  She didn’t have any basis for that besides rumor.  
 

I’m curious if this will change her election prospects if residents either don’t want the zone there or they see her as being untruthful about the reality of what has happened.  

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1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

Councilmember Sawant immediately claimed it was right wing outsiders.  She didn’t have any basis for that besides rumor.  
 

I’m curious if this will change her election prospects if residents either don’t want the zone there or they see her as being untruthful about the reality of what has happened.  

She's also demanding a police investigation while simultaneously saying that the police shouldn't be there.  How then are they supposed to investigate? 

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2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

She's also demanding a police investigation while simultaneously saying that the police shouldn't be there.  How then are they supposed to investigate? 


My father is a big Sawant supporter and he’s mad at her over this.  He lives a short walking distance from the zone.  (Low income senior housing)

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So, Seattle Department of Transportation arrived at 6AM this morning to move the barricades.  Goal is to reopen the street and clear the park.  Very few SPD were present.  Representatives from the Mayor's Office were also there.  A journalist friend posted a livestream on FB.  They are 1 hour and 45 minutes into this effort.  

All I know for sure is that Jenny Durkan is a 1-term mayor.  Seattle mayoral races have a pattern- both candidates are generally quite liberal (it's Seattle), one is framed as having business community support and one is framed as a community oriented progressive.  She was the former.  She has now pissed off both the people who voted for her and the people who didn't.  I will be curious to see if she even mounts a reelection campaign next year.  One term mayors aren't uncommon here.  Neither is an incumbent mayor losing reelection.  

ETA:  SDOT left around 7:30.  The perimeters seem to have changed but the zone is still there.  

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