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BookwormTo2

Asymptomatic COVID-19 patients aren’t spreading virus

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3 hours ago, cintinative said:

 

I have heard this story repeated on FB.  

My friend had a direct zoom chat with her cousin that had this happen to her  - this isn't some a friend of a friend of a friend FB post.

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4 hours ago, cintinative said:

Clarification:  "No choir member reported having had symptoms at the March 3 practice. One person at the March 10 practice had cold-like symptoms beginning March 7. This person, who had also attended the March 3 practice, had a positive laboratory result for SARS-CoV-2 by reverse transcription–polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) testing."

So, the person who had symptoms did not have them when he/she attended the March 3rd practice. Some people who attended the March 3rd practice only got sick.  So presumably the person was pre-symptomatic on March 3rd. 

Oops -- What I meant to put after reading that whole long CDC article is the super spreader reported cold-like symptoms starting March 7. Three days later that person attended the choir practice on March 10 and didn't realize he/she had COVID-19. No choir member was sick on March 3. CDC concluded the person who had cold-like symptoms starting on March 7 was the index patient. Possibly that person was pre-symptomatic on March 3, but the CDC report doesn't say (that I could find, could be wrong!). From what I can tell reading the CDC report (under Investigation and Findings subhead) and the discussion about odds, the March 10 choir practice was the super spreader event.

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3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

My friend had a direct zoom chat with her cousin that had this happen to her  - this isn't some a friend of a friend of a friend FB post.

One of my mom's friends said this same thing happened to her about going for a COVID-19 test and leaving and not getting tested because the line was too long...and then getting told her test came back positive. 

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48 minutes ago, BookwormTo2 said:

One of my mom's friends said this same thing happened to her about going for a COVID-19 test and leaving and not getting tested because the line was too long...and then getting told her test came back positive. 

This now begs the questions - is there some directive that if someone leaves they're automatically listed as positive?   How many people leave because the lines are too long and they don't want to wait anymore?

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4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

My friend had a direct zoom chat with her cousin that had this happen to her  - this isn't some a friend of a friend of a friend FB post.

 

55 minutes ago, BookwormTo2 said:

One of my mom's friends said this same thing happened to her about going for a COVID-19 test and leaving and not getting tested because the line was too long...and then getting told her test came back positive. 

So what did they do? They must have had a reason for going in for a test. Did they go ahead and quarantine or did they assume they didn't have covid? Was this discrepancy picked up by contact tracers or did this happen in areas without contact tracing?

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40 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

This now begs the questions - is there some directive that if someone leaves they're automatically listed as positive?   How many people leave because the lines are too long and they don't want to wait anymore?

 

I am wondering this also. When I saw it on FB, people were using it to downplay the positive numbers, and I really wondered at the veracity of it. I wonder if you are right and there is some sort of directive for this

 

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2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

This now begs the questions - is there some directive that if someone leaves they're automatically listed as positive?   How many people leave because the lines are too long and they don't want to wait anymore?

That's just not likely, at all. 

if it was, we'd have even MORE positives here. And most of our positives are from private labs, not the public free ones wiht the super long lines. It would be the opposite if that was true. 

 

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And not to be mean, but I'm going to point out that both instances being cited are still twice removed - the friend of my mom, or the friend of my cousin. Unless you KNOW the person saying this, and they are saying directly to you, with proof, I would be very hesitant to take this on blind faith. Having friends who work in labs, etc...this just isn't a thing. 

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19 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And not to be mean, but I'm going to point out that both instances being cited are still twice removed - the friend of my mom, or the friend of my cousin. Unless you KNOW the person saying this, and they are saying directly to you, with proof, I would be very hesitant to take this on blind faith. Having friends who work in labs, etc...this just isn't a thing. 

It’s a story I’ve seen repeated often recently across social media which is why I’m suspicious of it being true.

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8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

My friend had a direct zoom chat with her cousin that had this happen to her  - this isn't some a friend of a friend of a friend FB post.

 

If not a made up story, I wonder if it was a fake test site?

https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/info-2020/fake-coronavirus-testing-sites.html

where because fake in first place they didn’t notice that there was no swab

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

If not a made up story, I wonder if it was a fake test site?

https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/info-2020/fake-coronavirus-testing-sites.html

where because fake in first place they didn’t notice that there was no swab

 

 

not - it was a real site, just taking too long.

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9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

not - it was a real site, just taking too long.

 

Then it Sounds like health department that has jurisdiction for the area should be contacted.  

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13 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

not - it was a real site, just taking too long.

 

How and when and where did they get and turn in the paperwork btw? 

 

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53 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

not - it was a real site, just taking too long.

 

Okay. Well, if the line was so long you probably won't be revealing anything too identifying if you tell us what county and state this was in.

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12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

My friend had a direct zoom chat with her cousin that had this happen to her  - this isn't some a friend of a friend of a friend FB post.

I've also seen it on Facebook, also by someone claiming it was a friend's cousin (and their friend).

 

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39 minutes ago, maize said:

I've also seen it on Facebook, also by someone claiming it was a friend's cousin (and their friend).

 

 

I just did a Facebook search and multiple posts popped up with the exact scenario. It’s always “my friend’s mom...” or “my cousin’s friend...” Never a specific person’s name, never a specific place. 

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@gardenmom5

this video shows a self swab testing site, not a busy day with hours to wait, but getting the paperwork for the samples and turning in the samples don’t seem to be widely spaced out from each other.   (The how to do test information papers early in process seemed to be anonymous. )

https://youtu.be/GDVRB__lueM

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1 hour ago, lovelearnandlive said:

I just did a Facebook search and multiple posts popped up with the exact scenario. It’s always “my friend’s mom...” or “my cousin’s friend...” Never a specific person’s name, never a specific place. 

 

Which, of course, creates the impression that this must be widespread. Of course, even if it's happened in ONE area, that hardly means it's happened all over the entire USA. It's not too much to ask for a specific place, anything to verify this.

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The original "fake positives from empty swabs" story started out as "my mom's friend is a nurse at a hospital in [insert name of city], and she was suspicious of all the positives so she sent in 2 blank swabs and got fake positives, and then all the other nurses did too and they were all positive, because the government pays hospitals $X per Covid patient, so it's all a scam and the real numbers are way lower." Then that started getting repeated and reported all over the country with the city changed (but no actual hospital named) and different amounts of money that the gov't is allegedly paying for Covid patients. Then the nurse part got dropped from the story and it was just "my mom's friend" or "my friend's mom" or "my friend's cousin," sending in blank swabs and getting positives.

There are never verifiable details in any of the stories, and there is ZERO evidence that this has ever happened anywhere. It's just another fake story like the thousands of people who apparently all know the same teenage girl who got pleurisy from a mask, and the claims about all the gunshot victims and car accident injuries getting recorded as Covid patients so hospitals can claim the bonus and "they" can make it seem like Covid is much worse than it is, so "they" can take away all our freedums and.... something something gazpacho.

Edited by Corraleno
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And honestly, what nurse is going to risk her job and possibly nursing license and ability to earn a living to send in a fake test just to see what happens? She'd have to put an actual name on it, and that would be fraud. 

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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

And honestly, what nurse is going to risk her job and possibly nursing license and ability to earn a living to send in a fake test just to see what happens? She'd have to put an actual name on it, and that would be fraud. 

Not to mention that this would be plastered over the actual news - not just on the the rumor mill social media. 

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Something I've been thinking about this morning:

Given skyrocketing cases in many parts of the country, it is obvious that lots of people are spreading covid to lots of other people.

These people spreading--either they are mostly people who have symptoms and are irresponsibly ignoring the risk and behaving in ways that spread the virus.

Or they are people who don't have recognizable symptoms and are behaving in ways that spread the virus because they don't think they need to do otherwise.

In either scenario (and the likely case of a mix of both) it seems clear to me that we can't rely on individuals to choose to behave responsibly and not spread the virus. Government intervention, starting with mask mandates and continuing through shut downs if necessary, is clearly the only reasonable path forward.

I'm reading lots of rants on facebook about how we have to preserve our freedom; it seems people forget that for order to exist in society freedom must be balanced by personal responsibility. When individuals fail to choose responsible behavior it is the place of government to limit freedom in order to protect the vulnerable.

In my state, the governor has held off on mandating face covers while repeatedly calling on people, begging even, to be responsible and choose to wear a mask. At this point we're coming up against a hard limit as hospitals are nearing capacity; I think most of the people who are willing to wear a mask out of a sense of personal responsibility are already doing so; the governor is going to have to make and enforce a legal mandate to compel the rest. 

Freedom without responsibility doesn't work.

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6 minutes ago, maize said:

Something I've been thinking about this morning:

Given skyrocketing cases in many parts of the country, it is obvious that lots of people are spreading covid to lots of other people.

These people spreading--either they are mostly people who have symptoms and are irresponsibly ignoring the risk and behaving in ways that spread the virus.

Or they are people who don't have recognizable symptoms and are behaving in ways that spread the virus because they don't think they need to do otherwise.

In either scenario (and the likely case of a mix of both) it seems clear to me that we can't rely on individuals to choose to behave responsibly and not spread the virus. Government intervention, starting with mask mandates and continuing through shut downs if necessary, is clearly the only reasonable path forward.

I'm reading lots of rants on facebook about how we have to preserve our freedom; it seems people forget that for order to exist in society freedom must be balanced by personal responsibility. When individuals fail to choose responsible behavior it is the place of government to limit freedom in order to protect the vulnerable.

In my state, the governor has held off on mandating face covers while repeatedly calling on people, begging even, to be responsible and choose to wear a mask. At this point we're coming up against a hard limit as hospitals are nearing capacity; I think most of the people who are willing to wear a mask out of a sense of personal responsibility are already doing so; the governor is going to have to make and enforce a legal mandate to compel the rest. 

Freedom without responsibility doesn't work.

This is, quite frankly, a terrifying point of view and justifies any number of draconian measures, pandemic or no. Are we going to arrest and jail people who refuse to mask? Are we willing to use police force to enforce masking? Both ironic given that jails and congregate living are drivers of spread and the current zeitgeist seems to be a movement to give police less reason to use force or arrest people.

Not to mention, the reason that many models were so off in terms of high estimates of fatalities is because they failed to account for individual modification of behavior, much of which is done ahead of or in spite of government rules.

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33 minutes ago, EmseB said:

This is, quite frankly, a terrifying point of view and justifies any number of draconian measures, pandemic or no. Are we going to arrest and jail people who refuse to mask? Are we willing to use police force to enforce masking? Both ironic given that jails and congregate living are drivers of spread and the current zeitgeist seems to be a movement to give police less reason to use force or arrest people.

Not to mention, the reason that many models were so off in terms of high estimates of fatalities is because they failed to account for individual modification of behavior, much of which is done ahead of or in spite of government rules.

 

I don’t think we should be throwing people in jail for not wearing a mask or not social distancing. But I’m all for fining them.  The funds raised can go toward payments to businesses that can’t be allowed to open because the virus is out of control. Or to pay for health care for essential workers. 

I can’t tell you how many people I know who think this is a joke and are still having parties, BBQs, etc. without social distancing. They will put on a mask to walk into the grocery store because they have to.

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Isn't protecting public safety one of the only things most people can agree IS the government's job?

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1 hour ago, maize said:

In my state, the governor has held off on mandating face covers while repeatedly calling on people, begging even, to be responsible and choose to wear a mask. At this point we're coming up against a hard limit as hospitals are nearing capacity; I think most of the people who are willing to wear a mask out of a sense of personal responsibility are already doing so; the governor is going to have to make and enforce a legal mandate to compel the rest. 

I agree with this one million percent. 

Are governors not mandating masks solely because they fear the backlash of voters? Their jobs aren't worth it. Just make the unpopular decision, save lives, get voted out. They can find other jobs. 

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16 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Isn't protecting public safety one of the only things most people can agree IS the government's job?

Apparently not. . .

(I do think that it's the government's job and has been since this country started.)

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Just one of the things that has been annoying me since this pandemic came on the scene is how much contradictory information we, the public, have gotten. Is there asymptomatic spread or is it that COVID-19 is airborne, which 239 researchers recently published an article on? I'm not going to claim that there definitely isn't asymptomatic spread but an awful lot of different claims have been walked back due to what almost seems like some kind of pressure. Fauci saying masks were not needed by the general public initially...now we are being told differently. And hey, we are wearing masks when we do go out, which isn't often. I looked at the Chinese study about asymptomatic spread in an elevator, and the first thing I wondered is how do the researchers know every person who has been in that elevator and that someone wasn't missed that actually was symptomatic? How do they know for sure that the patient they say is asymptomatic is truly asymptomatic? Some symptoms cannot be seen. From all the information the public has been getting that seems to change too frequently, I'm getting a bit jaded. 

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31 minutes ago, BookwormTo2 said:

Just one of the things that has been annoying me since this pandemic came on the scene is how much contradictory information we, the public, have gotten. Is there asymptomatic spread or is it that COVID-19 is airborne, which 239 researchers recently published an article on? I'm not going to claim that there definitely isn't asymptomatic spread but an awful lot of different claims have been walked back due to what almost seems like some kind of pressure. Fauci saying masks were not needed by the general public initially...now we are being told differently. And hey, we are wearing masks when we do go out, which isn't often. I looked at the Chinese study about asymptomatic spread in an elevator, and the first thing I wondered is how do the researchers know every person who has been in that elevator and that someone wasn't missed that actually was symptomatic? How do they know for sure that the patient they say is asymptomatic is truly asymptomatic? Some symptoms cannot be seen. From all the information the public has been getting that seems to change too frequently, I'm getting a bit jaded. 

 

This is still a developing situation. News changes as we get more information. We know more now than we did in February. There's no need to get "jaded" because we learn more - it'd be much more concerning if information wasn't changing! That would mean we weren't learning much.

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1 hour ago, BookwormTo2 said:

Just one of the things that has been annoying me since this pandemic came on the scene is how much contradictory information we, the public, have gotten. Is there asymptomatic spread or is it that COVID-19 is airborne, which 239 researchers recently published an article on? I'm not going to claim that there definitely isn't asymptomatic spread but an awful lot of different claims have been walked back due to what almost seems like some kind of pressure. Fauci saying masks were not needed by the general public initially...now we are being told differently. And hey, we are wearing masks when we do go out, which isn't often. I looked at the Chinese study about asymptomatic spread in an elevator, and the first thing I wondered is how do the researchers know every person who has been in that elevator and that someone wasn't missed that actually was symptomatic? How do they know for sure that the patient they say is asymptomatic is truly asymptomatic? Some symptoms cannot be seen. From all the information the public has been getting that seems to change too frequently, I'm getting a bit jaded. 

It's not either/or.  There is asymptomatic spread.  There is also pre-symptomatic spread (which is really difficult to tell if it's different from asymptomatic until the symptoms finally show up).  This is science as it is happening.  COVID is spread by airborne droplets and sometimes aerolized particles.  None of these things preclude the other.  Of course new studies and new information are going to change the dialog. 

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One thing I keep thinking of is that I get headaches, mild sniffles, and a mild dry cough related to allergies pretty often. (I did check recently to see how easy it is to get a test here, because it is said that anyone who wants to get one, even without symptoms, should be able to. However, from the steps I took, I couldn't figure out how to make it happen.) Under the criteria, I would be considered to have symptoms. But I don't believe I have the virus, and am still going in to work, etc. If I do get it, then yes, I can look back and say I had symptoms. I won't stay home for weeks though, due to a headache, sniffles, and dry cough, because I keep those most of the time, and they haven't changed. At first, I was concerned, but I don't think I'm being irresponsible--it's just how do you make those determinations when it's typical for many people like me? 

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https://www.sciencealert.com/40-of-people-with-covid-19-don-t-have-symptoms-latest-cdc-estimate-says
 

was this mentioned up thread? “New guidance by the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 40 percent of people infected with COVID-19 are asymptomatic and the chance of transmission from people with no symptoms is 75 percent.”


isn’t this the opposite of the original linked article finding?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

One thing I keep thinking of is that I get headaches, mild sniffles, and a mild dry cough related to allergies pretty often. (I did check recently to see how easy it is to get a test here, because it is said that anyone who wants to get one, even without symptoms, should be able to. However, from the steps I took, I couldn't figure out how to make it happen.) Under the criteria, I would be considered to have symptoms. But I don't believe I have the virus, and am still going in to work, etc. If I do get it, then yes, I can look back and say I had symptoms. I won't stay home for weeks though, due to a headache, sniffles, and dry cough, because I keep those most of the time, and they haven't changed. At first, I was concerned, but I don't think I'm being irresponsible--it's just how do you make those determinations when it's typical for many people like me? 

Yeah, I've joked about the "allergies or covid" dilemma, but we're not really going anywhere, so I haven't really been all that worried about covid.  But honestly, when I'm teaching, the number of days when I have symptoms of SOMETHING (mild cold, allergy to whatever is blooming/ mold/ etc, slightly sore throat from dry overheated air, didn't get enough sleep, etc) are HUGE.  Add in multiple days for testing/ results, and I'd be out of the classroom more than I'd be in it.  And if everyone in a household is supposed to quarantine every time anyone has any kind of symptom?  I honestly don't know how that would work.  When symptoms can be SO subtle that coughing once or twice in a day or blowing your nose once a day could count as a symptom but is already a baseline, how do you quantify a symptom?  Calling in sick will generate all sorts of anxiety in everyone and expense and chaos in your classroom.  That's going to be a factor, too, even if loss of wages isn't a concern.  People are either going to be constantly getting tested and quarantining or will go in, at least sometimes, with some level of mild symptoms.  It's impossible to get all of these calls right, even without taking into account people who deliberately go in sick/ send their kids sick.  Heck, people will play, "Is my stomach slightly upset because I have covid or because I'm anxious that I might have covid?" games.  It's a horrible vicious circle, and it's really not fair.  When community transmission levels are high enough that covid is a serious danger, it's just not fair to ask people to make those kinds of gambles.  

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10 hours ago, lovelearnandlive said:

 

I don’t think we should be throwing people in jail for not wearing a mask or not social distancing. But I’m all for fining them. 

Anyone who says the bolded about any crime is being disingenuous. What happens to people who won't or can't pay the fines? What is the mechanism for enforcement? And who bears the burden of fines if not people who can least afford them? And who do we get to enforce mask wearing fines?

If you don’t want people being thrown in jail for something, you don't make laws about that thing, fines or no, because not paying fines gets you a warrant, which gets you arrested.

Then again, I know people who want non-mask wearers thrown in jail, so it's not that far out there, which is scary even for this mask compliant person.

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10 hours ago, EmseB said:

This is, quite frankly, a terrifying point of view and justifies any number of draconian measures, pandemic or no.

It's terrifying to pass laws to protect the public from a deadly virus? Is it also draconion to pass laws about smoking in public buildings, speed limits, drunk driving? What about public health laws that require restaurant workers to wash hands after using the bathroom, keep food at the proper temperature to prevent disease, etc? Should we leave all that up to individual decisions as well?

9 hours ago, kokotg said:

Isn't protecting public safety one of the only things most people can agree IS the government's job?

i certainly thought so. 

2 hours ago, Jaybee said:

One thing I keep thinking of is that I get headaches, mild sniffles, and a mild dry cough related to allergies pretty often. (I did check recently to see how easy it is to get a test here, because it is said that anyone who wants to get one, even without symptoms, should be able to. However, from the steps I took, I couldn't figure out how to make it happen.) Under the criteria, I would be considered to have symptoms. But I don't believe I have the virus, and am still going in to work, etc. If I do get it, then yes, I can look back and say I had symptoms. I won't stay home for weeks though, due to a headache, sniffles, and dry cough, because I keep those most of the time, and they haven't changed. At first, I was concerned, but I don't think I'm being irresponsible--it's just how do you make those determinations when it's typical for many people like me? 

Yup. I have sinus congestion right now, allergies I'm sure, but how would I know? I had chills and sweats last week from what I think was the start of a bladder infection, but that plus congestion? Could be Covid. 

And for testing, at this point my sister had scheduled tests every two weeks for months at an urgent care, because it takes weeks to get a spot. She figures she'll use it if she needs it, and if not pass the spot on to someone who does. It's ridiculous that it is at that point. 

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

Anyone who says the bolded about any crime is being disingenuous. What happens to people who won't or can't pay the fines? What is the mechanism for enforcement? And who bears the burden of fines if not people who can least afford them? And who do we get to enforce mask wearing fines?

If you don’t want people being thrown in jail for something, you don't make laws about that thing, fines or no, because not paying fines gets you a warrant, which gets you arrested.

Then again, I know people who want non-mask wearers thrown in jail, so it's not that far out there, which is scary even for this mask compliant person.

Well, what they did in my county was say they would fine stores/businesses if they were caught not enforcing mask rules, not individuals. 

But again, are you also against fines, etc for things like speed limits, smoking in public buildings, restaurant health code violations, etc?

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On 7/13/2020 at 11:58 AM, calbear said:

Well, there's this story reported asymptomatic spread from an elevator that wasn't occupied at the same time.

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-jumped-between-people-via-elevator-surfaces-study-2020-7

I did read that study but I’m somewhat suspicious.  China seem to really want all cases to be linked to imported cases to demonstrate they have defeated the virus and don’t have local transmission.  I’m not saying it didn’t happen that way but it wouldn’t surprise me if all the cases got linked to that one because overseas cases are acceptable whereas local outbreaks seem to result in people losing their jobs.  Not a China expert but that seems to be the pattern.

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Anyone who says the bolded about any crime is being disingenuous. What happens to people who won't or can't pay the fines? What is the mechanism for enforcement? And who bears the burden of fines if not people who can least afford them? And who do we get to enforce mask wearing fines?

If you don’t want people being thrown in jail for something, you don't make laws about that thing, fines or no, because not paying fines gets you a warrant, which gets you arrested.

Then again, I know people who want non-mask wearers thrown in jail, so it's not that far out there, which is scary even for this mask compliant person.

 

I’m curious, do you feel this way about parking tickets? Fines for smoking in a no smoking area? Littering? Should we get rid of penalties for these things because some people might not be able to pay them? Are our jails full of people that couldn’t pay these fines? I don’t see much difference between these types of violations and a fine for not wearing a mask/throwing a big party during a pandemic.

I don’t want people going to jail for these things, but the fact that penalties exist certainly shapes public behavior.

Edited by lovelearnandlive
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11 hours ago, cintinative said:

 

https://www.sciencealert.com/40-of-people-with-covid-19-don-t-have-symptoms-latest-cdc-estimate-says
 

was this mentioned up thread? “New guidance by the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 40 percent of people infected with COVID-19 are asymptomatic and the chance of transmission from people with no symptoms is 75 percent.”


isn’t this the opposite of the original linked article finding?

 

 

 

Can we talk about how this finding directly contradicts the WHO finding in the OP's first post?

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12 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

It's terrifying to pass laws to protect the public from a deadly virus? Is it also draconion to pass laws about smoking in public buildings, speed limits, drunk driving? What about public health laws that require restaurant workers to wash hands after using the bathroom, keep food at the proper temperature to prevent disease, etc? Should we leave all that up to individual decisions as well?

i certainly thought so. 

Yup. I have sinus congestion right now, allergies I'm sure, but how would I know? I had chills and sweats last week from what I think was the start of a bladder infection, but that plus congestion? Could be Covid. 

And for testing, at this point my sister had scheduled tests every two weeks for months at an urgent care, because it takes weeks to get a spot. She figures she'll use it if she needs it, and if not pass the spot on to someone who does. It's ridiculous that it is at that point. 

Well, what they did in my county was say they would fine stores/businesses if they were caught not enforcing mask rules, not individuals. 

But again, are you also against fines, etc for things like speed limits, smoking in public buildings, restaurant health code violations, etc?

It is a misdirection and false equivalency to insist that because I might be in favor of some public safety laws that I must be in favor of jailing or fining people for not wearing masks or for not tattling on their fellow citizens for not wearing masks. I am not going to debate the nuances of each law you brought up to deflect from this issue, but yes, I do think that it is terrifying that 2 or 3 months after telling people not to wear masks we now want law enforcement fining or jailing people for not wearing them *or* business owners or staff in the position of enforcing those laws or losing their livlihoods. It is appalling to me that people would think that is a good idea. That doesn't mean I have to be for or against every other measure of public safety we currently have on the books in various places.

I am probably more libertarian than most, and like I said, being in favor of jailing people for not wearing masks among other things is not what I'm about, but it isn't a far outlying position at this point. I get that people do want to fine and enforce mask wearing via local law enforcement.

If you want to put already strained business owners or staff in the position of enforcing mask laws on the general public or fine them and enforce those fines with already strained local police forces, that is not something I'm in favor of.

I am in favor of mask wearing. I don't think it should be enforced by police with guns or fellow citizens trying to tattle on non-mask wearers. I don't think we should put people in jail during a pandemic for not wearing one, or for not enforcing that other people wear one, or for not paying fines associated for either one of those things.

ETA: wrt the bolded, business owners are individuals.You can't fine a store without or a business independent of a person.

Edited by EmseB
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On 7/11/2020 at 2:21 PM, gardenmom5 said:

 

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

Can we talk about how this finding directly contradicts the WHO finding in the OP's first post?

It may have been missed, because this thread started at the beginning of June and then went dead for a while, but the WHO walked back that statement the following day. This really isn’t a point of question at this point.  We know Covid is spread by people without symptoms. They may be asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic, but it makes no practical difference at the moment they’re spreading it.  This was linked earlier in the thread and there’s a good explanation: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/who-butchers-asymptomatic-covid-comments-heres-what-they-meant/

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

It is a misdirection and false equivalency to insist that because I might be in favor of some public safety laws that I must be in favor of jailing or fining people for not wearing masks or for not tattling on their fellow citizens for not wearing masks. I am not going to debate the nuances of each law you brought up to deflect from this issue, but yes, I do think that it is terrifying that 2 or 3 months after telling people not to wear masks we now want law enforcement fining or jailing people for not wearing them *or* business owners or staff in the position of enforcing those laws or losing their livlihoods.

I think the point of the question is because you said that we shouldn’t make any laws that we’re not prepared to jail people for. So the question was whether you agree all of those things should be laws. I think there are quite a few laws that fall in the bounds of things that are appropriate to be laws, but that nobody really wants to see anyone jailed for. (Incidentally, many of those are things that are far less harmful to others then someone spreading Covid is.) I do find it interesting that you find mask laws “terrifying”. I find the thought of myself or any of my loved ones being on a ventilator for weeks in the hospital, experiencing the hallucinations and paranoia that a large percentage of ventilated Covid patients suffer far scarier than being required to wear a mask.

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On 7/12/2020 at 5:41 PM, Ktgrok said:

And not to be mean, but I'm going to point out that both instances being cited are still twice removed - the friend of my mom, or the friend of my cousin. Unless you KNOW the person saying this, and they are saying directly to you, with proof, I would be very hesitant to take this on blind faith. Having friends who work in labs, etc...this just isn't a thing. 

 

Yes I've also seen this exact story a couple times recently on social media, and never a first-hand account. It's infuriating. 

Someone suggested in response to one of these accounts, that (if true) perhaps there is some sort of scam going around and someone is just calling random people and saying they're positive. Not sure how a scammer would profit from that but we've seen some strange scams.

I also wonder if that could mean SOMEONE is positive so the result is valid but they mixed up some contact information. Again, if true. 

I just don't understand why people think there are benefits to overinflating the numbers? What would be the motivation on the part of the Dr. Fauci's of the world to tell people to wear masks? I know this has been covered at various points but I need a refresher. Even as we see these astounding numbers exploding, and accounts of anti-maskers who died and on their deathbed warned people it was real...why are people still denying it and saying Dr. Fauci is a fake?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, kand said:

 

It may have been missed, because this thread started at the beginning of June and then went dead for a while, but the WHO walked back that statement the following day. This really isn’t a point of question at this point.  We know Covid is spread by people without symptoms. They may be asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic, but it makes no practical difference at the moment they’re spreading it.  This was linked earlier in the thread and there’s a good explanation: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/who-butchers-asymptomatic-covid-comments-heres-what-they-meant/

 

I don't think the WHO was claiming 75% chance of transmission with no symptoms, though. Even in their walkback. This seems significant to me, but maybe I missed the discussion. If most people spreading the virus are asymptomatic, how do you develop a "sick" policy for a school, co-op, etc.?

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23 hours ago, maize said:

Something I've been thinking about this morning:

Given skyrocketing cases in many parts of the country, it is obvious that lots of people are spreading covid to lots of other people.

These people spreading--either they are mostly people who have symptoms and are irresponsibly ignoring the risk and behaving in ways that spread the virus.

Or they are people who don't have recognizable symptoms and are behaving in ways that spread the virus because they don't think they need to do otherwise.

In either scenario (and the likely case of a mix of both) it seems clear to me that we can't rely on individuals to choose to behave responsibly and not spread the virus. Government intervention, starting with mask mandates and continuing through shut downs if necessary, is clearly the only reasonable path forward.

I'm reading lots of rants on facebook about how we have to preserve our freedom; it seems people forget that for order to exist in society freedom must be balanced by personal responsibility. When individuals fail to choose responsible behavior it is the place of government to limit freedom in order to protect the vulnerable.

In my state, the governor has held off on mandating face covers while repeatedly calling on people, begging even, to be responsible and choose to wear a mask. At this point we're coming up against a hard limit as hospitals are nearing capacity; I think most of the people who are willing to wear a mask out of a sense of personal responsibility are already doing so; the governor is going to have to make and enforce a legal mandate to compel the rest. 

Freedom without responsibility doesn't work.

 

I agree. Freedom without responsibility does not work. 

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3 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

 

Yes I've also seen this exact story a couple times recently on social media, and never a first-hand account. It's infuriating. 

Someone suggested in response to one of these accounts, that (if true) perhaps there is some sort of scam going around and someone is just calling random people and saying they're positive. Not sure how a scammer would profit from that but we've seen some strange scams.

 

Maybe if people decide to drive away from a site without getting the test they should carefully film and document themselves driving away, then if/when they get a positive result, contact someplace that can do something about this. 

Insurance and other Billings would seem to be an issue if tests are logged as done that were not done. 

And aren’t most results coming with at least a mail follow up even if there’s an initial phone call?  Making call scam harder?  

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

I don't think the WHO was claiming 75% chance of transmission with no symptoms, though. Even in their walkback. This seems significant to me, but maybe I missed the discussion. If most people spreading the virus are asymptomatic, how do you develop a "sick" policy for a school, co-op, etc.?

Oh, I agree. I don’t think they were aware of just how common asymptomatic spread is even when they did the walk back of the original statement. I think the 75% number came from recent research. And I agree it makes the return to school particularly fraught.

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5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Maybe if people decide to drive away from a site without getting the test they should carefully film and document themselves driving away, then if/when they get a positive result, contact someplace that can do something about this. 

Insurance and other Billings would seem to be an issue if tests are logged as done that were not done. 

And aren’t most results coming with at least a mail follow up even if there’s an initial phone call?  Making call scam harder?  

 

 

I'm not sure about the mail. My daughter and I were tested at a free public drive-up site and were both negative.  We didn't even turn in paperwork until the moment we were tested, so there was no chance of someone being called unless they actually went through with the test (the wait when we went was 2 hours. They gave us the paperwork when we got into the line).   We each received a phone call and were told that was the only way we'd be contacted. But different states and sites, different procedures. 

Edited by OH_Homeschooler

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13 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Yes I've also seen this exact story a couple times recently on social media, and never a first-hand account. It's infuriating. 

Someone suggested in response to one of these accounts, that (if true) perhaps there is some sort of scam going around and someone is just calling random people and saying they're positive. Not sure how a scammer would profit from that but we've seen some strange scams.

Maybe I’ve missed some thing about how people say this is happening, but if the people turn around and leave the test site, how is it that the test site has all their info to contact them?

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