What is helpful to know in another language?

[egao_gakari]

In my job teaching Japanese, the most common demographic of student is the adult who is planning a trip to Japan next year and wants to learn the kind of Japanese he/she will need in order to get around there... but they always want more than phrasebook Japanese. They want to be able to reliably create original sentences on their own. That requires instruction of grammar patterns, with workbook exercises, listening/speaking exercises, etc. Basically, they need a full curriculum--and all the Japanese curricula I'm familiar with target high school or college students and teach a bunch of vocabulary that my kind of students find totally unnecessary, and frankly discouraging to learn. So I'm kicking around the possibility of creating my own program, or at least a few lessons, that more directly suit the people I teach. I'm curious to know what situations people have encountered in foreign countries, when if they'd just known how to say XYZ, they would have had an easier time. I've come up with these so far:

-Taxi driver took you to the wrong location
-Ordering food at a fast food restaurant vs. a sit-down restaurant
-Finding a place to stay/ people to help in an emergency situation
-Visiting a doctor
-Understanding when someone's telling you not to do something/ apologizing for minor infractions (like using flash when taking photos in a museum, etc.)
-Complaining to the hotel concierge when the people next door are being super loud, or your room stinks of cigarette smoke and you paid extra for a non-smoking room

[Andromeda]

I haven't traveled to Japan, but in general here are some of the things I found useful to know when traveling overseas:

- Polite phrases (obviously such as please and thank you)
- Directions to bathroom/washroom
- Compass directions (north, south, etc.) for navigation
- Do you speak (language)?
- Sizes /flavors/numbers to order food at fast food restaurants that don't use picture menus
- main dish ingredients for sit down restaurants such as chicken, beef, etc.
- how you wanted the dish cooked, especially if you have to be careful regarding allergens
- sparkling water vs. flat water vs. mineral water
- names for currency notes and coins as well as their values
- knowing how to list any medical conditions (good to have a paper with this written out)

[Miss Tick]

ATM location

grocery store location

I eventually find myself asking for the cultural equivalent of "ummm" An aural placeholder while I slowly construct my next sentence.

 

 

[TheReader]

Adding to the list...

....how to ask for the grocery store (if they will be visiting one)
....names of typical foods they might buy (for ex, how to buy flour, or milk, or juice, or to know that the juice carton you have is really a soy product vs. an actual juice product)
....definitely money terms (how to ask how much something is, the numbers, etc.)
....time/how to ask for the time/how to understand someone telling you the time 
....words for open/closed (for stores and such)
....vocabulary to navigate things like train stations, metro, airport, etc. that may or may not have signs in English or announcements in English (ex: "your gate has changed to..." "your terminal has changed to..." "Flight/Train xyz has moved to....")
....clear understanding of the terms for men/women (such as in bathroom signs, etc.)
....clear understanding of "not permitted" and similar terminology
....info on any "need to know" customs

Also, it's important to know a lot of these both verbally/auditory but also written, so you recognize the words/symbols/etc. when you see them. 

[KungFuPanda]

Have you looked at Berlitz? I think this is their main deal. 

[PeterPan]

50 minutes ago, egao_gakari said:

the adult who is planning a trip to Japan next year

Is Japan the type of place where they'll just reply to you in english anyway because their english is better than your japanese? I'd make sure they can read metro/transportation names. Anything beyond that is how much time they want to put in.

[egao_gakari]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Is Japan the type of place where they'll just reply to you in english anyway because their english is better than your japanese? I'd make sure they can read metro/transportation names. Anything beyond that is how much time they want to put in.

Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Tokyo/Yokohama people typically understand English well, but are notoriously shy about speaking it... For the tourist who's planning a more rural/countryside experience, they actually may not run into anyone who even understands what they need. Most of the folks who hire me are looking to spend 6 months to a year practicing before their trip (planning for anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months of time in-country).

[gardenmom5]

I've been working intensely on learning a language to be able to actually converse.  (then I can proceed to fluency).

I've watched a lot of lectures from polyglots on how to do so.  The best phrase to know I heard was: "my friend will pay".

all jokes aside, jeff brown is a Spanish prof whose channel is poly-glot-a lot and he did one video (produced over a years time) where he went from zero to being able to converse in Arabic. (a level five language.)  He also speaks mandarin, and is working on Korean.  (he speaks at least seven languages in total.)

he does a lot of language exchanges with native speakers who are trying to learn English.  the key is the student must hear it spoken by a native so they can "hear" it.  in order to speak comfortably, you need to be able to think in the language and you need to be able to "hear" the words and understand on the fly by a native speaker at their speed.

 I wouldn't trust that a lot of people actually speak English. (or understand spoken English).  business people in tokoyo other large cities, maybe.  I heard an exchange between an ATC and a Japanese pilot.  the pilot knew enough English to get his license, but he definitely wasn't fluent.

right now - I do OK at reading (considering I started in January) - but I can barely put two or three words together (maybe) for a VERY simple question.

[egao_gakari]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Have you looked at Berlitz? I think this is their main deal. 

Oo, good idea. Their "Confident Japanese" textbook looks like a good starting-point. (Lots of disgruntled reviews on Amazon, though, because it doesn't teach any of the writing system.)

[Bootsie]

Language associated with opening hours, holiday closings, public transportation directions and purchasing tickets.  Sometimes the difference on a schedule of "only on Mondays" and "not on Mondays" is minor to a non-native speaker who recognizes "Monday".  Language regarding one-way versus round-trip tickets, or day-tickets, family tickets, and senior discounts is very helpful.  

[Xahm]

One big thing to teach in the situation you describe is how to communicate when you don't know the words. Yes, as a teacher you teach lots of relevant vocab and basic grammar structures, but they aren't going to get close to fluent in that time, so they need to practice strategies, like using different words, miming, sketching a quick map, etc that will help them bridge the gap. Without practice it is too easy to either withdraw and give up on communication or fall into the trap of speaking English more and more loudly, hoping it will get through. When I went to live in Russia I only know how to decide the alphabet and really basic greetings. After two years, I could hold basic conversations about certain topics and understand a lot. (I was teaching English, so my growth was stunted in that much of the time I was required to speak English.) Midway through my time, I needed to buy a lightbulb, but I kept forgetting to look up that word when I was near a dictionary. I searched all through a store and ended up having to ask an employee using the words I did know "I have a lamp, but there is no light. I need this." Then I mimed screwing in a bulb. It worked like a charm, and I'll forever remember how to say lightbulb, even after all else is forgotten. 

2 hours ago, egao_gakari said:

In my job teaching Japanese, the most common demographic of student is the adult who is planning a trip to Japan next year and wants to learn the kind of Japanese he/she will need in order to get around there... but they always want more than phrasebook Japanese. They want to be able to reliably create original sentences on their own. That requires instruction of grammar patterns, with workbook exercises, listening/speaking exercises, etc.

 

I think we'd all love to be completely fluent in any number of languages, but how much of the above is really reasonably achievable in a year by an adult learner?  Especially one who has a full plate of adult activities to do in their lives?  How much time (both in-class and out-of-class) are these students willing to devote to this task?  Would that time be more usefully spent learning a few phrases and number, and the rest studying about culture?

While google translate generates phrases that are no where near fluent, it is darned useful, and, I think, changes the calculus about what the bare minimum a traveler might need to learn.

Edited June 8, 2020 by GGardner

[prairiewindmomma]

The Rick Steve’s phrases books are more helpful than Berlitz, imo. I would look to those for suggestions.

Fwiw, when I used those while living abroad most of the phrases I missed were certain food names (while grocery shopping) and language for dealing with government bureaucracies and medical stuff.

[Tap]

Basic health needs to ask a pharmacist for a medication or to communicate to a doctor.

Diarrhea, dizziness, exhaustion, nausea, vomiting, fever, pain, headache etc. 

Very basic medication names like Tylenol, Tums, allergy med, etc. 

Instruction on how to take medications.  3 pills once per day vs 1 3x per day. Every 4 hours vs 4 per hour. With food/without food. 

[egao_gakari]

3 hours ago, GGardner said:

I think we'd all love to be completely fluent in any number of languages, but how much of the above is really reasonably achievable in a year by an adult learner?  Especially one who has a full plate of adult activities to do in their lives?  How much time (both in-class and out-of-class) are these students willing to devote to this task?  Would that time be more usefully spent learning a few phrases and number, and the rest studying about culture?

While google translate generates phrases that are no where near fluent, it is darned useful, and, I think, changes the calculus about what the bare minimum a traveler might need to learn.

I would kind of agree from a practical standpoint that Google Translate makes it almost unnecessary to study a language at all before going on a trip. But people come to me for lessons because they aren't satisfied with that approach/method. I charge enough that those who register for my classes are typically pretty dedicated. Complete fluency isn't their learning goal (or my teaching goal)--but they want to be able to express the basics without turning immediately to the phone or pocket phrasebook, and they want a human conversation partner/teacher rather than an app like Duolingo. When they come to me, many have already tried learning via app and aren't happy with their progress. So it's kind of a self-selected group. (Gotta admit, age-wise it's mostly late-Gen-Xers and older Millennials who don't have kids--so their "full plate of adult activities" is work and hanging out with friends sometimes.)

8 minutes ago, egao_gakari said:

But people come to me for lessons because they aren't satisfied with that approach/method. I charge enough that those who register for my classes are typically pretty dedicated. Complete fluency isn't their learning goal (or my teaching goal)--but they want to be able to express the basics without turning immediately to the phone or pocket phrasebook, and they want a human conversation partner/teacher rather than an app like Duolingo.

 

I'm curious if your clients are vacationers going to Japan for a couple of weeks, or people planning to move to Japan for an extended period of time.  If the former, a lot of the posters here seem to be planning for a much less fun vacation that I hope for....

[egao_gakari]

2 minutes ago, GGardner said:

I'm curious if your clients are vacationers going to Japan for a couple of weeks, or people planning to move to Japan for an extended period of time.  If the former, a lot of the posters here seem to be planning for a much less fun vacation that I hope for....

I've had people come to me expecting to make visits of 3 weeks at the minimum, 1 year at the maximum. Seems like 2 weeks is the "phrasebook" threshold and beyond that, people want to have conversation practice and prepare for more potential happenings 🙂 

[TheReader]

Gardenmom's reply made me think of something -- "can you repeat that more slowly, please?"  Or whatever the friendly, polite equivalent is in Japan. 

But also remind your learners that even LOTS of study ahead of time (we had 40 hrs of classes before moving to Brazil, and another 40 hrs of classes once there) and it's still hard to *hear* the language when spoken at speed. Ex: sometime in our first month in country, we were at a park. A little kid came up to us asking "queiras sol?" quite frantically. We could not understand why on earth he was asking if we wanted sun. Made no sense. He repeated several times, with us more and more confused. Finally he pointed at his wrist and we realized he was asking "que horas sao?"  (what time is it)  

Likewise the first time we ordered a popular Brazilian drink, which our language teacher had even taught us how to say, it took 5 tries before the waiter understood us. Because our very practiced English-speaking person carefully pronouncing this Portuguese word was not quite the way normal Brazilian speaking person says it. (the speed thing, again). 

Also, how do (if there are any) English words that have made their way into Japanese culture/usage actually sound. For ex, in Brazil, they have milkshakes. Labeled "milk shake". Pronounced "milk-uh shake-ee"  Or "catsup/ketchup" pronounced "ket-shoop-y".  Some of the hardest words for us to pronounce in Portuguese......were the English words they were mispronouncing (but spelling in English). 

And random things like that an umbrella is called a "guarda-chuva" during rainy season but a 'guarda-sol" during dry season. (rain guard vs. sun guard), and if you ask for a "rain guard" when it's dry season, the guy selling the "sun guard" will laugh at you. 

But so much of this is "learn on the street while there" stuff.....you are brave to try and create a curriculum for this sort of thing!

[egao_gakari]

On 6/8/2020 at 4:32 PM, TheReader said:

Gardenmom's reply made me think of something -- "can you repeat that more slowly, please?"  Or whatever the friendly, polite equivalent is in Japan. 

But also remind your learners that even LOTS of study ahead of time (we had 40 hrs of classes before moving to Brazil, and another 40 hrs of classes once there) and it's still hard to *hear* the language when spoken at speed. Ex: sometime in our first month in country, we were at a park. A little kid came up to us asking "queiras sol?" quite frantically. We could not understand why on earth he was asking if we wanted sun. Made no sense. He repeated several times, with us more and more confused. Finally he pointed at his wrist and we realized he was asking "que horas sao?"  (what time is it)  

Likewise the first time we ordered a popular Brazilian drink, which our language teacher had even taught us how to say, it took 5 tries before the waiter understood us. Because our very practiced English-speaking person carefully pronouncing this Portuguese word was not quite the way normal Brazilian speaking person says it. (the speed thing, again). 

Also, how do (if there are any) English words that have made their way into Japanese culture/usage actually sound. For ex, in Brazil, they have milkshakes. Labeled "milk shake". Pronounced "milk-uh shake-ee"  Or "catsup/ketchup" pronounced "ket-shoop-y".  Some of the hardest words for us to pronounce in Portuguese......were the English words they were mispronouncing (but spelling in English). 

And random things like that an umbrella is called a "guarda-chuva" during rainy season but a 'guarda-sol" during dry season. (rain guard vs. sun guard), and if you ask for a "rain guard" when it's dry season, the guy selling the "sun guard" will laugh at you. 

But so much of this is "learn on the street while there" stuff.....you are brave to try and create a curriculum for this sort of thing!

Every Japanese textbook teaches "mo ichido itte kudasai" or some variant of that for "please repeat it." I often wondered why I'd never heard any Japanese people actually say that--I say "Sorry, what was that?" like 3 times a day in English. Eventually I found out why. Japanese native speakers use a dialogic pattern called aizuchi in conversation. It sounds like interrupting, but it's not--it's a give-and-take where the listener uses little verbal cues to inform the speaker that the listener is still following what's being said. Think of completing another person's sentences, or saying "uh-huh" after every meaningful group of words. The way Japanese people inform the speaker that something needs to be repeated or clarified is to fall silent! The speaker is expecting an "uh-huh" and when it doesn't come, the speaker's mental flow is disrupted, they pause, and they ask, "Do you understand?" or "You know?" Then the listener has the opportunity to say, "No, can you go back a bit?" 😄 

[mumto2]

On understanding.......My family has found it helpful when asking for any sort of help in a foreign language or just in a place where we are not finding local accents easy to be able to turn what we believe we heard back into a conversational sentence to check our understanding.

Someone tells us the museum opens at 9( we think).........We respond with a because the museum opens at 9, should we arrive a bit earlier to be first in line? type of sentence.  We try to build the question around the part of the directions we are unsure of or care the most about.

[egao_gakari]

1 minute ago, mumto2 said:

On understanding.......My family has found it helpful when asking for any sort of help in a foreign language or just in a place where we are not finding local accents easy to be able to turn what we believe we heard back into a conversational sentence to check our understanding.

Someone tells us the museum opens at 9( we think).........We respond with a because the museum opens at 9, should we arrive a bit earlier to be first in line? type of sentence.  We try to build the question around the part of the directions we are unsure of or care the most about.

That is a FANTASTIC strategy. Did it take a while to train yourself to come up with those kinds of responses on the fly?

On 6/8/2020 at 3:04 PM, egao_gakari said:

I would kind of agree from a practical standpoint that Google Translate makes it almost unnecessary to study a language at all before going on a trip. But people come to me for lessons because they aren't satisfied with that approach/method.

 

Note that I just said that google translate changes the calculus of what to teach.  Meaning not that it should always be used instead of learning anything, but maybe it changes what you want to focus on when teaching.  If a student can quickly and easily look up any word in either direction, maybe you can spend more time on pronunciation or listening, and less time on vocabulary memorization.  Or you can spend more time on cultural things, like the neat aizuchi  you mentioned above.  Or strategies for how to use automated translation assistance, without completely relying on it.

For me at least, google maps and translate has changed the way I travel, making me much more bold and willing to stretch my wings.  However, I suspect I'm not using these tools as well as I could to enhance what we get out of traveling.

[Junie]

I don't travel internationally, but I have been attending Spanish church services for the last six months or so.

There are quite a few topics that I have wanted to talk about that I had to research on my own.  I can imagine that some of these topics might be used when conversing with someone in another country.  (i.e. small talk)

Talking about myself is something that I am having to learn.  What kinds of foods I like (and as someone mentioned above -- food allergies).  Hobbies.  How many children I have and what they are doing.  Health problems.  What kinds of books I like to read.  Occupation of me and/or my husband.  These are things that I can learn and memorize, but not something that a native speaker could help me with in the moment.  If someone asks me what my husband's job is, it is more helpful to know the words for electrical engineer than for me to try to describe it or for the other person to guess.

[mumto2]

4 hours ago, egao_gakari said:

That is a FANTASTIC strategy. Did it take a while to train yourself to come up with those kinds of responses on the fly?

I think it was training or at least conscious effort on our part.  We moved to a part of England that is known for heavy local accents......people who have always lived in the area joke that they can’t understand what is being said in villages that are only a couple of miles away. So lots of practice........

  Both hubby and I were somewhat used to Scottish accents because he was raised with his Scottish grandma living with his family.  His Russian grandmother lived there too, but died before I knew him.  I always worked to have a good conversation with Grandma and picked up many of my methods as a teen I think, I wanted her to like me.😉. As an adult I actually coordinated much of his grandmother’s heath care in her nursing home so I needed to understand her problems and she never lost her accent.   I had to be discreet because she would have been furious if I sat there saying I don’t understand what you are saying. So Grandma trained me most likely......Dh never had a problem understanding her or the relatives he grew up with btw.

 That said I went into life in England with my questioning conversational skills in place and found myself to be our family’s voice because I was superior at getting things done in the first weeks.  Telephone conversations are particularly difficult because you lack the facial clues btw.  Eventually we all adapted with the method being used when needed.

Both Dd and Dh are varying degrees fluent in some EU languages and have discovered the question back technique helpful.  Natives talk quickly in response if your accent etc is good and can almost be a disadvantage if your listening comprehension isn’t equally good.  We made Dd be the main communication person on many trips and told her exactly what information she wanted before conversations were started.   The sort of a question while repeating back what you understand from the last sentence works,  we are aiming for confirmation that she/we understood.  If you can phrase it so you get a yes or no even better......try to always repeat location directions.