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Rosie_0801

Does anyone else deliberately teach emotional intelligence as a subject?

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Not exactly.  But I did purposely buy my older boy Dungeons and Dragons when he was 12 because it was clear that he needed help with EQ.  I hate that game, but played it for 3 hours a week for 3 years with my dh and 2 boys to help my older boy learn how to collaborate, argue appropriately, deal with disappointment, be a good sport, etc.  And it worked!

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2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Not exactly.  But I did purposely buy my older boy Dungeons and Dragons when he was 12 because it was clear that he needed help with EQ.  I hate that game, but played it for 3 hours a week for 3 years with my dh and 2 boys to help my older boy learn how to collaborate, argue appropriately, deal with disappointment, be a good sport, etc.  And it worked!


GURPS is better, just sayin'¬†ūüėā

I admire your dedication. RPG's have more staying power than The Never-ending Story.

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Not as a subject, but I've had to have some very intentional conversations about the difference between reality and feelings with DD.

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We are conciously trying to! We try to very intentionally include picture books that relate to emotional awareness, processing emotions and expressing emotions.

We discuss and role play different scenarios sometimes too.

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3 hours ago, /'/'/' said:

If you don't read the Bible, maybe you could find other things to use for examples?  I also used a lot of real life examples.


We have read the Bible for cultural literacy and we certainly have a lot of very real life examples to use.

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I wouldn't have thought to call it a subject, because it's woven across subjects, and it was a pretty intentional part of my parenting before I began homeschooling, but developing EQ, is absolutely something that's in the forefront of my thinking when I choose what literature to read, or how to tackle an era in history, or what math strategy game to play, in the same way that it's part of my thinking when I set up a routine for my kids, or think about how to handle another separation, or discipline them.

 

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24 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I wouldn't have thought to call it a subject, because it's woven across subjects, and it was a pretty intentional part of my parenting before I began homeschooling, but developing EQ, is absolutely something that's in the forefront of my thinking when I choose what literature to read, or how to tackle an era in history, or what math strategy game to play, in the same way that it's part of my thinking when I set up a routine for my kids, or think about how to handle another separation, or discipline them.

 


We do that too, but also have a subject called 'Bitchery'¬†ūüėÖ¬†History and Bitchery are our core subjects. They rhyme nicely.

It'd be interesting to see your thinking if you're willing to give more detail. ūüôā

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it is sort of the main life lesson that we are working on with the twins. We work very closely with a Psychologist who  specialists in child trauma and is also a play therapist . We have all sorts of aids to help with expressing emotions, We work on  -  how what we say makes others feel, -what is reality and what is just what one wishes to be reality and how if you say it like it is real others will think you are lying, - how to address others when you are feeling upset and disappointed - how we know you are angry and we know it is because of bad things in the past   but you are safe now

we also play a board game of some sort every day so we can work on not only taking turns, but how to react when the game isn't going your way, what happens if you cheat, what happens if you loose, or win etc

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14 hours ago, lewelma said:

Not exactly.  But I did purposely buy my older boy Dungeons and Dragons when he was 12 because it was clear that he needed help with EQ.  I hate that game, but played it for 3 hours a week for 3 years with my dh and 2 boys to help my older boy learn how to collaborate, argue appropriately, deal with disappointment, be a good sport, etc.  And it worked!

Hm. You're making me want to buy D&D for DD7, even thought I also kind of hate that game. 

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We mostly just talk about emotional intelligence, but I've never worked it into our curriculum. DD7 is not terribly self-aware, though, so I think I'm going to have to handle this after she has some more cognitive leaps and can reason about it better. I think her access to this is likely to be through books, just like mine was -- books with interesting, complicated characters are great for discussing awareness of other people, behavior vs emotions, etc. 

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We use several therapy resources that tackle emotional intelligence in our homeschool.  Zones of Regulation, Story Grammar Marker, Superflex Social Thinking, Camp Cope A Lot (CBT) 
 

Summer Kinnard has a great webinar on therapeutic homeschooling for kid’s with disabilities and learning differences here https://raphaelschool.org/ancient-faith-speaker-series/ it is from an Orthodox Christian perspective, but the resources she shares can be used by anyone.

Mental health and emotional regulation are the biggest priorities in our homeschool at this point.  Until we reach a stable place with my boys there’s not much point in pressing further academics.  We still read a ton of literature, history, geography and we play with math, but I’ve backed off formal academics for the time being.

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I don't know if this will count, but I've placed "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" on my ds's booklist for next year, which will correspond to when he takes the red cross babysitting class at age 14 (this is a very common certification that 14 year olds do here.  It's not required to babysit, but it's a nice class that teaches first aid and so on).  For 9th grade, I've scheduled People Skills, which is an excellent book.  

I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're going for.  My kids don't seem to particularly struggle with emotion yet... still waiting for the hormones to hit!  

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Yeah, if you want to move into the "kid who doesn't get it and really needs serious help" category... :biggrin:

I sorta have my head wrapped around parts of it and then I realize there are whole facets I don't understand well enough yet. So, unfortunately, I'm just gonna throw out dots and see if they connect anything for you or connect to what you're wanting to deal with.

-Narrative language development hinges on emotional language development. So if the SEL is delayed (SEL=social emotional learning), then we could posit that the narrative language may also be hindered. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Here's a chart so you can see where emotions enter in (abbreviated episode) and how feelings drive the whole process of critical thinking with a problem, response, plan, and embedded plots as others have feelings/responses.

-Self-advocacy therefore rides on emotional awareness. And emotional awareness, of your affective and hypostatic emotions, is called INTEROCEPTION. https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  So there is a lot of new research going on about interoception. Kelly Mahler, in her curriculum, suggests 3 phases of development: your own hypostatic, your own affective, and ultimately hypostatic/affective of others. 

-So you can then see how reading comprehension as well relies on this phase 3 recognition of the hypostatic and affective emotions of others. This is a way school IEP teams are getting social thinking and interoception covered, by showing how the deficits affect ACADEMICS. Literally, the glitches in emotional awareness will glitch up reading comprehension and WRITING development as well. Again, see the MW/SGM charts and see the fiction/nonfiction correlations. So emotions and social understanding are not just about pragmatics and getting along. They're vital for academic growth and possibly the glitch if things seem a little odd and you can't put your finger on why.

-There are limited tests for interoception. Kelly Mahler has one, which I like a lot, and she has a team working on updating it. They're hoping to get it into a standardized form that school IEP teams can use. 

-There is a new study out showing that caregivers (both professional and parental) DRAMATICALLY UNDERESTIMATE the degree of interoceptive deficits in the clients they are completing forms on.

-Logically, your CBT based strategies like Michelle Garcia Winner's Social Thinking materials, are going to struggle to connect with students with significant interoceptive deficits. You see this over and over, when parents are saying their kids have done Zones of Regulation, done this or that, and it's not clicking, not taking. The issue is the lack of interoception. They are not connecting with their own body signals well enough to use the information they've been given by the curriculum. In kids with less interoceptive deficits, the transformation is often dramatic. But in kids like mine, you can have 4-5 different practitioners try and get NO click, NO application ever. The kid needs to work on interoception first before the cognitive strategies will be useful.

So then, what am *I* doing? :smile:

Well I've gotten trained on everything I could find. I've attended most of the Social Thinking seminars, gotten trained on Zones, you name it, done it. Really though, none of it clicked till we started working on Interoception. Went to a Mahler workshop that pulled it together for me. So we continue to work on interoception, but we're more in that phase 2 kind of thing where he's beginning to connect his body signals into affective emotions. 

I bought all the social/emotional materials Timberdoodle sells, because frankly they're CHARMING. Just go through their site and see. Anything Eboo. And I just keep dribbling it.

Mahler finds that, in general, her clients take to identifying their affective emotions pretty readily once they recognize their HYPOSTATIC (body) emotions. So think about that. The implication was that if my ds wasn't beginning to say his affective emotions, then I needed to do more bodywork. Thing is, I literally think we have a LANGUAGE issue here. We even had that with the descriptor words for hypostatic emotions. We had to go back and give the words MEANING. 

So I'm using the Timberdoodle materials (picture books, flashcards, doodle your emotions, etc., literally everything) to try to make the words mean something. It's now a language issue for him.

But admittedly, that's for some of your worst case scenarios here with a dc with ASD2 with significant language issues, kwim? We do hours of language work a day and he gets 5+ hours of speech therapy a week to continue to work on language. He has a lot of language, but there's just so much farther to go, the gap between what he has memorized and what he really understands. He's a really bright stinker, so he can memorize out the wazoo. But that doesn't mean he UNDERSTANDS. 

One of the issues they say to watch for is idiosyncratic use of emotion words. So the dc is SAYING an emotion, but it doesn't MATCH what they're feeling. So I consider it a good sign when my ds begins to use the things we're targeting (hypostatic and affective emotions), but I'm also looking for whether he's using them correctly. Yes there are also more complicated issues like trauma, kids dissociating (I used to do this), and a psych term I'm forgetting right now (who you ascribe things to=attribution). But IF the dc has interoceptive deficits, seems to me that's the MOST FOUNDATIONAL place to start. Once you get that self-awareness, body awareness, everything else flows out from there. It's why other strategies seem to fail, because they didn't get back to the root root issue. They found issues, but this is pretty new research with interoception. Ironically it was in the trauma counseling where I first started working on it, so some people are doing bodywork, yes. But some of the psychs aren't going back are enough, making the starting point still too high for some kids. It's the most basic thing. If you don't know what your body is telling you, how do you know what you're feeling or like or want? And if you don't know yourself, how do you really get other people? 

Edited by PeterPan
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And a way cool article I didn't weave into that tome, lol. 

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/102/Supplement_E1/1272?fbclid=IwAR32PB2iXqYOzHNgWz9hjW6BTdPe4w8vRQMyFepS7d6FjhGelparwYeqnXk

So you start to read about the idea of the 6 universal emotions (see mindwings site) and then you wonder ok, what should I prioritize FIRST? And I kind of went in circles, trying a lot of things. I tried gradations, teaching the words from weak to strong, categorizing them under positive negative, on and on. Really, I dont think any of it was too effective with ds, who remember is a nasty case, with language issues and ASD. 

Finally I was like nuts with this, I don't think ANY of the SLPs are right. And since I have no degree in any of this, I'm highly qualified to say that. :biggrin: Nevertheless, I'm like fine if they DON'T know and they AREN'T using an evidence-based strategy then what at least would be something that MIGHT work because it at least fits normal child development? Kwim? Like hey, why not just mirror how kids actually develop this. Woo, novel concept. Hint, it's not what is being done. 

So you read the article, and I found others, and you start to see funky things like 

-emotional language first develops as a way to say what you are NOT feeling, NOT wanting, NOT liking. So I'm like hey, we can do that! So we got out those Timberdoodle cards and created stupid little games where we trick each other and say the WRONG emotion and the other person has to correct it. He totally engaged with this. :biggrin: Actually it blew his mind for a bit, but that's what I expect if I'm hitting on the thing that didn't happen, kwim? So emotional language begins in the early years to defend yourself, correct perspectives. 

-emotional language development is driven by the POWER of it. If it doesn't get you anything, why bother?

-emotional language necessary for driving plots/conflict (the kickoff in the Story Grammar Marker narrative language intervention program that I gave you the chart for in the earlier post) is NEGATIVE. This is where I stopped, because I'm like ok that's fine to say he needs negative to drive plot and kickoff, and maybe we should do that. But frankly, I think we've got enough negative in his world already. Where do toddler's start? Do they start talking about how they're so tired/sick/bored/frustrated? I think not. they start with happy emotions. So I'm like fine, put the negative aside, we're going to do POSITIVE. Even if it SLOWS US DOWN, we're going to do positive FIRST.

So it is my considered opinion that beginning with positive emotions is a healthy, developmentally appropriate thing to do. Discriminate them, but only positive. And then, as enough of that language gets solid and is being used, introduce negative and then apply it to conflict and kickoff/plot lines and critical thinking and problem solving. That to me makes developmental sense. Or at least it's how thorough I'm finding I need to be with my ds. 

And you know, the fruit is really good! My ds actually SAID OF HIMSELF HE WAS PROUD!!! Seriously, that's a win. Huge win. Narrative language can wait in line while we focus on being positive. :smile:

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https://timberdoodle.com/products/making-faces-a-first-book-of-emotions it went really fast but actually it was a good positive intro to something that had been beaten to death by "professionals"

https://timberdoodle.com/products/feelings-flashcards love

https://timberdoodle.com/products/a-whole-bunch-of-feelings  love

https://timberdoodle.com/products/happy-sad-feeling-glad  so adorable

https://timberdoodle.com/products/stages-emotion-cards  I skipped these and I'm not sure why. Life isn't lived in studio/canned photos, so I'm not sure they're the most useful to my ds. But if I had them lying around or found them cheap, sure.

https://timberdoodle.com/products/what-s-going-on-here-flash-cards  anything eboo is good

https://timberdoodle.com/products/lion-in-my-way  My ds enjoys this more than you'd think.

https://timberdoodle.com/products/create-a-story-volcano-island  narrative language

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MS86IUP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 more eboo

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F6QPGBY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  Oh no, they're gone!! Super cute eboo cards

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XXMHT65/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1  Ok, DON'T MISS THESE. They're from a psych or someone in Australia I think, and they were one of my favorite finds. So well done and sensibly priced. Apparently I liked them better than the deck Timberdoodle is selling. But again, these are more authentic. The challenge with emotion instruction is not tying the emotion word to a situation. You're supposed to be tying it to hypostatic emotions, not context. If you tie it to context, they don't recognize it when the context changes. So you're not wanting a lot of context in the pictures because you want them to work across contexts.

Ok, this merits discussion. I thought initially that photographs would be preferable to stylized art/comic renditions. However I will tell you that the comic/colorful style cards Timberdoodle sells (linked above) resonate very well with my ds. There is another artist with cards that you'll see on amazon, and I decided *not* to go with his cards even though other autism moms locally use them. I felt like these cards Timberdoodle sells were better at giving hints for what the BODY is doing, which is the whole point. We're wanting a body/mind connection, where they realize what their body is feeling (hypostatic emotions) and can translate that into an affective emotion word. And somehow they work well for ds. Or buy something else and ignore me. LOL But that was my thought process on how I got there.

In reality, you can use magazines, youtube, whatever you've got. Anna Vagin has a free list of youtube resources. https://www.socialtime.org/free-resources She's the author of YouCubed, a book on using youtube to teach SEL. She just did a workshop (free) with the MW/SGM people, and if you can find a recording of it it might be worth your time. Sorry, I just looked at they don't have it loaded up yet. It was STELLAR. 

I'm making it sound hard. Use what you have but use it with whit, with ever growing amounts of research backing you up on how to get it to connect and click and do more for them.

 

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17 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:


We do that too, but also have a subject called 'Bitchery'¬†ūüėÖ¬†History and Bitchery are our core subjects. They rhyme nicely.\

I want to hear more about Bitchery.  Do you have books you read? Do you plan it out over the course of a year in advance?  Or deal with things as they come up? 
 

17 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:


It'd be interesting to see your thinking if you're willing to give more detail. ūüôā

I think one thing, for us, is that we have enough real life emotional challenges going on right now, that a lot of the instruction is reactive.  

So, for example, I have a 9 year old and a 10 year old.  I think that's an age that kids are really beginning to wrap their minds around the idea that other people have had different experiences than they have, and that those experiences color how they see the world.  If I was parenting kids this age who had grown up together, and had similar parenting and experiences, we might do that work largely through studying literature with characters who had different experiences than they did.  9 and 10 is a great age, for example, in my experience, for historical fiction. But for my 9 and 10 year olds, while we certainly have read a variety of literature, and talked about it, our work on perspective taking has centered on understanding each other, because for a long time they found each other absolutely baffling, and so we've had to do a lot of work on taking perspective, and looking for clues about how the other is feeling. 

We've also had lots of opportunities to talk about self care, and self regulation, and not just what to do in the moment, but what to have in place before something you know is going to be stressful.  So, for example, we have intentionally built routines at home, with the idea that we can replicate those routines across distance when DS10 is hospitalized.  So, for example, we have a bedtime routine, that is very structured, and that has pieces in it that are there because they work well over Skype, because it's easier for DS10 to hold on to the fact that he's still ours and we're still his when some things are the same.  

I also have two kids who are really bad at self advocacy, and one who is very good at telling us what he needs and wants, but can do so in a way that comes off as whiny or demanding, and so we've hit that skill hard, both in highlighting characters or historical figures and looking at how they self advocate, and in making the ability to speak up something to aspire to, or something to be proud of.

I don't know if I'm making a lot of sense.  Let me know if that's what you had in mind.  

 

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8 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I want to hear more about Bitchery.  Do you have books you read? Do you plan it out over the course of a year in advance?  Or deal with things as they come up? 

I think one thing, for us, is that we have enough real life emotional challenges going on right now, that a lot of the instruction is reactive.  

I don't know if I'm making a lot of sense.  Let me know if that's what you had in mind.  

 

Oh, you make sense. We have lots of reactive conversations too. I can't plan more than one or two books in advance because I don't know how long we'll take to get through anything.  'Queen Bees and Wannabes' took us three years! She'd groan every time I pulled it out, but admitted there were situations she'd handled better because of the information we'd read. Before that we read 'A Child's Guide to Trauma' and have done a bit more on how the brain works, and I really want to do more of that when we can fit it in. We're currently working through the "UnF*** Your Boundaries" workbook. It's not my choice of language, but it's the only book I could find that wasn't focused on marriage. I like to introduce info *before* she needs it, but that's a bit too far ahead! The boundaries book contains a little bit of the interoception stuff Peter Pan was talking about. Sex ed books these days have chapters on healthy relationships, and as Square said, literature offers a whole range of human experiences to discuss. We started off with "No Mr Wickhams!" when she was 3, watching the BBC Pride and Prejudice and added "No Mr Compeysons!" after watching Dickens. Soo muchhhh Dickennssss. She made me watch something like 60 hours of Dickens in about 3 weeks. I still suffer from Dickens Saturation Syndrome. It's a real thing, I'm telling you! We've read a few autobiographies too. Amanda Palmer's is called 'The Art of Asking' which interested dd, but probably hasn't had much effect because asking = rejection in most of her life. Still, it shows other people struggling with the same life lessons, provided a catalyst for a lot of conversation and I can now say "Remember when we were reading... ?" We're currently reading Yassmin Abdel-Magied's autobiography because she worked on the oil rigs for a while and dd is being discouraged from pursuing her goal of being a lady tradie. Also, Yassmin mentions how she loved Tamora Pierce's books, which dd does too, so that forms another connection to help her feel, I dunno, part of the rest of the world? As valid a life form as the rest of the world? I'm not big on hierarchy and always had her shake hands with the famous person/ guest lecturer or whoever was presenting when we were out at events and due to circumstances, she's lost that skill/feeling of equality. We watched Lily Singh's Youtube clip on vision boards and she made one to take home. I don't know that it inspires her to keep focus on her goals, but hey, she's only 13. She seems to find it comforting to have it there though, so I think we will make a yearly ritual out of it. When we finish the boundaries workbook, we're going to read 'Ophelia Speaks' which is about identity. Dd likes reading other people's personal stories, as I guess most people do. She enjoyed the book of first period stories I gave her back before she had her own. I think, after Ophelia, we might work through Lily Singh's 'How to be a Bawse' book. I do have an issue specific book to work through with her, but that has to wait until she's 18. This stuff seems to be working. She's more robust than I thought I could keep her.

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I love the sort of threads that have me open a dozen new tabs to check things out! Thanks. ūü•į

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Yes, it's probably the #1 thing I focus on with the kids but I call it parenting, not school. Sometimes its deliberate with books and a written activity, often its modeling and making them rephrase the way they talk or behave, sometimes its asking them to retell a story or event from the other's perspective. 

BTW, DnD is awesome. My 8yo ran a scenario for his grandmother today and it definitely helps with a lot of skills.

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I'm a little late to this thread but thought I'd chime in. I had my dh start a D&D group for my sons and their friends, and it has run 2x/month for over a year now. It truly helps with social skills across the board.  I also encouraged my oldest ds to start a D&D group last September with his friends and he has learned quite a bit this year in the process of organizing and scheduling sessions, running games, and maintaining friendships. I can't recommend it enough.

The other main thing I've used to improve EQ is Collaborative & Proactive Solutions. The creator, Dr. Ross Greene, has a few books out. I'd particularly recommend Raising Human Beings. This process has dramatically boosted both sons' ability to identify their emotions, articulate their thoughts, empathize with other perspectives, and negotiate for what they want without anger. It's been a huge win for us. 

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3 minutes ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

I'm a little late to this thread but thought I'd chime in. I had my dh start a D&D group for my sons and their friends, and it has run 2x/month for over a year now. It truly helps with social skills across the board.  I also encouraged my oldest ds to start a D&D group last September with his friends and he has learned quite a bit this year in the process of organizing and scheduling sessions, running games, and maintaining friendships. I can't recommend it enough.

The other main thing I've used to improve EQ is Collaborative & Proactive Solutions. The creator, Dr. Ross Greene, has a few books out. I'd particularly recommend Raising Human Beings. This process has dramatically boosted both sons' ability to identify their emotions, articulate their thoughts, empathize with other perspectives, and negotiate for what they want without anger. It's been a huge win for us. 

I love Ross Greene, everything Ross Greene writes is worth reading. 

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