help me think through math options

[ktgrok]

This is for a rising 2nd grader and a rising 5th grader. We are looking more for engaging and enjoyable than the most rigorous, as I feel kids that don't hate math do better 🙂  At least with my kids that is how it works. If it takes a long long time an is a slog they get in a negative mood about it and then don't think well. 

2nd: This kid is very math intuitive, does a lot of mental math in his head, finds it very easy for the most part. BUT he sometimes can be very logical in his thinking to the point that he misinterprets/overthinks directions and gets frustrated. and angry. Then he shuts down. He has PANDAS and when he's flaring picture ASD type behavior. It also causes brain fog, and realistically I can expect at least one flare per school year it seems. So "tricky" is not good. We once tried some Beast Academy and he found it very frustrating - he wants straightforward, but he also is "mathy" enough that a ton of repetition or too much instruction bores him. TGTB math was very teacher intensive, manipulative intensive, and lost his attention with all the wordy explanation when he just wanted to "do the math". We ended up using pages from Mathematical Reasoning, which was mostly but not always a good fit. "Brain Puzzler" type pages not so much, but the math itself was good. And fairly independent which he likes. Oh, and he likes knowing HOW things work....he's my kid that goes "OH!" when he figures something out or understands it. I'm looking at either continuing Mathematical Reasoning, Horizons Math, or Math U See. 

5th: She is my kid with the good attitude and good work ethic. She tries hard, and it isn't as easy for her as it is for the younger one, but she's very bright and gets the concepts without any dificulty. She doesn't enjoy math like he does - she's into art. But she doesn't struggle either, other than for a while with her math facts, which she has down now. She's been doing Math Lessons for a Living Education which she enjoyed, and did well with. She felt successful, which was important. I don't like how little actual instruction there is though - I could help with that with my own knowledge but at some point we could use more instruction in the book, so she can look back herself rather than just relying on me. She also has dyslexia, so I think the sheer amount of words in say, Saxon would overwhelm her. For her I'm also looking at Mathematical Reasoning, Horizons, Math U See. 

I've also considered MCP but there seems to be no review? I'm not married to a spiral approach but do need review built in. 

Both kids almost always get all problems right on their work - to the point where I'm not worried about tests, as they pick it up just fine. It's just about teaching it to them in a away that doesn't turn them off, and gets it done. 

CLE we've used in the past, but it has more practice than either of them need, and becomes a slog. I'd rather not have to be crossing off problems every day to decrease the workload, although I suppose something simple like, do the odd problems, would be workable. Math Mammoth is not our style, and again, a lot of problems. 

Thoughts?

[almondbutterandjelly]

My vote would be to use Mathematical Reasoning, and just skip the Brain Puzzler pages for the student that doesn't like them.  It keeps things fun, and it's colorful.  Mathusee is a bit of a slog, and no color although manipulatives.  But I actually was sad that I used MUS in elementary because when we hit a wall (rounding), we switched and placed way way back in another curriculum.  

I also really liked Singapore Math, just the textbook and workbook and no teacher guide.  US edition not Standards. 

But Mathematical Reasoning is good and colorful and not too cumbersome for assignments.  Since you are familiar with it and it mostly worked for one student, I would give it a try for both.

[Syllieann]

Of the options listed I think I'd go for horizons for the older.  There's enough instruction, practice, and review for most kids.  I don't think MR is enough on its own for most kids.

For the younger I'd do MUS because you can easily adjust the pace and review.  It also will cover the why well.  I'd also consider one of the Singapore programs.  (I know you're aware of these and they're not listed as options, so I assume they've been eliminated for some reason.)

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, perkybunch said:

My vote would be to use Mathematical Reasoning, and just skip the Brain Puzzler pages for the student that doesn't like them.  It keeps things fun, and it's colorful.  Mathusee is a bit of a slog, and no color although manipulatives.  But I actually was sad that I used MUS in elementary because when we hit a wall (rounding), we switched and placed way way back in another curriculum.  

I also really liked Singapore Math, just the textbook and workbook and no teacher guide.  US edition not Standards. 

But Mathematical Reasoning is good and colorful and not too cumbersome for assignments.  Since you are familiar with it and it mostly worked for one student, I would give it a try for both.

He liked Mathematical reasoning most of the time, other than the brain puzzler logic pages. (the ones where you have to figure out who took the package or whatever....where it is like, John is taller than Sheila, Bob has curly hair and is shorter than Greg, etc etc) So this is sort of where I'm leaning. I can't remember if Singapore has enough review for me. 

 

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I don't have experience with a lot of curricula, so I'm going to ask about Beast, because that's the one I've actually used. Was all of it too frustrating, or was any of it fun at all? I know for us, some of the puzzles were too frustrating but some were just right, especially if we run it behind the concepts we're working on. 

From what I heard, Math U See isn't generally loved by intuitive kids, and it seems like it might not be fun enough for your younger kid. By the way, can you give me any examples of math he'd find fun?

It was fun for a minute, until he got something wrong because he didn't understand what to do, and then it was NOT fun. And I can say that there will be a lot of days where discovery math, figuring it out and getting it wrong multiple times before getting it right, will not work out. I have the 2nd grade book and my use it for extra or fun on days when he's not dealing with brain fog, having a good mood day, etc. But I can't count on it as a full curriculum. He's a thinker - but also easily frustrated. Which is sort of a bad combination it seems. Although probably not uncommon. I'll look at Singapore again. 

A huge issue for him, is that the directions have to be VERY CLEAR and to the point.

He liked Mathematical Reasoning most of the time, and was good at figuring out which shapes were missing pieces, visual spatial stuff. And he sometimes just sits around figuring out how say, multiplication works, or easier ways to do math, etc. 

Oh, and he LOVES Khan Academy - he likes the badges and such, lol. But he didn't want to watch the videos, and again, had some frustration when he then couldn't do it because he didn't watch the video. So I just sat with him and explained things as we went, but then he rushed through to get the badges and I don't think really retained it as well as I'd like. And it doesn't seem to cover things like money, etc that he also needs to learn. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Ktgrok

[ktgrok]

46 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Of the options listed I think I'd go for horizons for the older.  There's enough instruction, practice, and review for most kids.  I don't think MR is enough on its own for most kids.

For the younger I'd do MUS because you can easily adjust the pace and review.  It also will cover the why well.  I'd also consider one of the Singapore programs.  (I know you're aware of these and they're not listed as options, so I assume they've been eliminated for some reason.)

Can you explain more why MR isn't enough? Not enough practice, or not enough instruction, or? I've only used the first grade level, with a kid who pretty much already knew how to do almost everything, so I'm interested in hearing it. 

[Syllieann]

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Can you explain more why MR isn't enough? Not enough practice, or not enough instruction, or? I've only used the first grade level, with a kid who pretty much already knew how to do almost everything, so I'm interested in hearing it. 

I think it needs more practice to be enough for most kids.  Of course, some kids will need only a small amount of practice.  To me, I think it's easier to skip unneeded problems than to try to add in more problems.  I think it's also easier on a child to see you cross out unneeded problems than to have you add more in.  I think it's more likely to foster confidence if you're crossing out extra.

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

I think it needs more practice to be enough for most kids.  Of course, some kids will need only a small amount of practice.  To me, I think it's easier to skip unneeded problems than to try to add in more problems.  I think it's also easier on a child to see you cross out unneeded problems than to have you add more in.  I think it's more likely to foster confidence if you're crossing out extra.

Gotcha. At least for what we did this year, it was plenty of practice, we actually skipped pages when I new he didn't need to do them. I'd rather add a page in, or print a worksheet off the internet, etc than cross problems off. Mostly because then they ask me to cross more and more off, etc and it becomes a pain. If it is something clear, where I can say "just do the odd number problems" that is fine,but if I'm picking and choosing it sets up an expectation to want problems crossed off. 

[ktgrok]

43 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Hmmm. Is frustration tolerance something he could work on or is that out of reach? Because it’s hard for me to think of “fun math” that doesn’t involve any frustration... I tend to think of fun math as involving problem solving, which is always annoying.

It does sound like BA wouldn’t be a good main curriculum, anyway.

Does he like the BA puzzles when they aren’t too hard? The kids in my classes liked math crosswords and hexagon honeycombs and whatnot.

No, he'd probably find the crosswords and such annoying, lol. He'd rather think about numbers in his head than write stuff down and fill things in, if that makes sense? 

Today he realized that it was cheaper to buy Robux in individual 99 cent increments, than to buy a bundle for $4.99. My husband argued, saying it is always cheaper to buy in bulk, then did the math and realized my son was right - it was five cents cheaper to do it in separate transactions!

So that stuff, he does in his head, He picks up on patterns and such easily as well. But the same kid was sobbing in tears minutes earlier because he'd forgotten how much robux cost in general. He also, on "bad brain days" will read a problem wrong, then SWEAR and BELIEVE to some extent that the numbers switched on the page by magic. (OCD intrusive thoughts are part of this syndrome). Hence needing VERY clear instructions. 

Best way to explain the frustration is that it is actual brain inflammation. It is similar to if you went without sleep for a few days, or had a bad migraine or something, it's physical, not an attitude thing. When his brain is not inflamed he's actually very easy going, and the type to realize he made a mistake, laugh about it, erase and fix it. But when he IS having trouble...he can't do that. He cries. He gets in fight or flight. We work through it, but it's a process. And again, this is more often over the directions than the actual math, but the first bad flare, he went from figuring out multiplication on his own, in his head, to unable to subtract 2 from 5. Literally. Unable. He's not that bad now, as we can catch the flares earlier, etc. And now it is more often the directions, or understanding what is wanted, than the actual math. (thinking language is effected more than math maybe? that would explain why the logic puzzles upset him as well) But yeah, directions must be very literal and clear. 

Oh, he is good at looking at a flattened out shape and knowing what it would like like if it was folded up, if that makes sense. Mathematical reasoning had those, and he could see it.I, on the other hand, could not and needed the answer key, lol. I have the worst visual spatial awareness ever, lol. Give me words! (I am notorious for not being able to understand Ikea instructional diagrams...even after I have someone show me what to do, I can't see how the diagram matches up with what is being done)

(he also, to balance out the tears, will laugh hysterically for no reason during flares..so that's weird but not as upsetting).

OH!!! Almost forgot, he has REALLY REALLY REALLY struggled with money. With coins, to be exact. Going to work on that with actual money over the summer. As I said, he can figure out real money, but coins, looking at them and knowing which is which is super hard for him some reason. For the longest time he was insistent that dimes were worth less than nickles because they are smaller, wouldn't believe me that they were not, then when we dropped it and came back around to it he remembered that he'd had it wrong, regarding size, but then decided all the big ones were worth less than all the small ones....etc. Plus I swear all workbooks have terrible photos of coins, and then they go and CHANGE the actual pictures on the coins...sigh. Not sure I'm even worried about this though, just will make sure he can do it with actual coins. And we found some math games online with money, and he likes those. 

[ktgrok]

Realized, when I said not looking for super rigorous, what I meant was not long lessons. Short and sweet works better for both of them (and me). We have ADHD strong in this house, lol. And they both, thankfully, are quite bright and pick it up easily enough. As long as it is a spiral program so they are practicing over the period of weeks, months, etc, they don't need a ton of practice problems per day. 

The last part of kindergarten the younger one, while in a PANDAS flare, did all of Khan Academy K and 1st grade and part of 2nd grade levels in about 3 months. At that point I stopped him because he was getting frustrated a bit because he was not watching the videos, just trying to figure it out, but he definitely picks it up easily. I do NOT want to have him slogging through lots and lots of problems and killing his enjoyment. 

[Syllieann]

24 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Realized, when I said not looking for super rigorous, what I meant was not long lessons. Short and sweet works better for both of them (and me). We have ADHD strong in this house, lol. And they both, thankfully, are quite bright and pick it up easily enough. As long as it is a spiral program so they are practicing over the period of weeks, months, etc, they don't need a ton of practice problems per day. 

The last part of kindergarten the younger one, while in a PANDAS flare, did all of Khan Academy K and 1st grade and part of 2nd grade levels in about 3 months. At that point I stopped him because he was getting frustrated a bit because he was not watching the videos, just trying to figure it out, but he definitely picks it up easily. I do NOT want to have him slogging through lots and lots of problems and killing his enjoyment. 

Did you think Khan was enough practice for most kids to master the material?  Just curious because it looks like my little cousins will be using it as primary instruction for another school year and my uncle is concerned.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Syllieann said:

Did you think Khan was enough practice for most kids to master the material?  Just curious because it looks like my little cousins will be using it as primary instruction for another school year and my uncle is concerned.

Maybe. I think they can do more practice problems after the video, before doing the challenges that show what they know. He didn't do that. He just did the challenge mission things, to "level up". Once they get a type of question right multiple times they stop being shown it other than very seldom just to check they didn't forget. 

25 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Hmmmmm, ok, that is tricky!!! Honestly, a kid like that, I might just play games, work with real coins, tell time, cook, do a teeny bit of written math, and call it a day... 

Basically, I think there are a few separate strands here, and it sounds like he gets the concepts easily but doesn’t have the maturity to problem solve. So there’s kind of nowhere to go, because conceptually he’s way ahead of problems he can actually do.

Given my own background, I’d probably also let him play with interesting later concepts. Talk about variables, do lots of easy problems with missing numbers, introduce him to simple binary or simple combinatorics, let him work with primes and prime factorizations, etc. That’s actually the tack I took with DD7 at ages 5 and 6 — conceptually, she could get hard stuff, but she simply didn’t have the frustration tolerance for harder problems. So then we played with new patterns and new ideas, but didn’t do particularly hard stuff. It worked well :-).

I don’t know how interested you’d be in that approach, since it’s probably work-intensive unless you already know all this random “fun math”... just what came into my head, given your description!! I also needed pretty clear but conceptually rich stuff for my advanced but young and immature kid :-).

Yes to the bolded - plus he has mental stamina issues. If it is too long, I lose him. 

I'm probably not able to do all the stuff you are saying...but I think maybe Mathematical Reasoning does some of it, as far as introducing concepts like missing numbers, patterns, breaking things down, etc. And it is just enough work to not overwhelm him. We got through the whole book even though we didn't start until December I think...before that we used TGTB. he was able to do multiple pages some days, some pages we skipped as it was just more review, etc. So if we started at the beginning of the year, and just planned on a page or two a day, he could do that plus have the time/mental energy for some more games, taking some days to just do cooking, play store with money, etc. And I can get him back on Dragonbox math, he liked that before, but got bored with big numbers and numbers, but wasn't ready for the algebra one. He may be now. 

[Clemsondana]

I was going to suggest Singapore for your younger - it's one of the few things that worked for both of my kids.  I would just get the workbook and textbook.  For your older, would something life Life of Fred work?  We didn't use any of the elementary series, but when we had some extra time this year I used the Fractions and Decimals books and my younger said that they were good  They can also be done independently and the lessons are short, although the amount of reading might be prohibitive.  

And, I got one Beast Academy book, thinking that my mathy kid would think it was fun, but he just thought it was weird.  Our middle (and soon to be high) school plan for this kid has been the unusual combo of AoPS and LOF, so maybe we're our own kind of weird.