Math difficulties with 7 year old

[lwest]

Hello, I have a daughter (just about eight) and finishing grade 2. She did MUS Beta this year and did extremely well with it. She was able to get 90% and above on all the tests. 

I have had her working through BA 2 since she finished MUS Beta and I've run into problems. BA teaches horizontal addition and in addition it teaches addition by finding an easier number to work with. For example, 46+118 = 50+114. She is having trouble retaining this concept. She ends up messing up her place values. I've gone over it again and again and she will get it by the end of the lesson, but when we come back to it again the next day she has forgotten.

I admit I have gotten overly frustrated and lost patience with her over it. I've had to apologize to her.  

Should I just keep moving forward or is there a concept I've failed to teach her well enough? I don't know how to figure out whether we just keep marching forward and if it is just a development issue that she will understand when she is a bit older or if I need to back up and reteach something. 

[lwest]

49 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Can you give me an example of how she messes up her place values doing this? 

It is usually on the horizontal addition when regrouping is involved that she messes up. So for example, she will rewrite 194 + 153 = 200 + 14 + 7 instead of 200 + 140 + 7. She can do it no problem if there is no regrouping. If I get her to add 194+153 vertically she can carry the one no problem. Now if I get her to do 194 + 153 the second way BA teaches, by having her make it 200 + 147 she really struggles with taking away what she has added to the first number. I have explained it multiple times the BA way and also using blocks and she gets it then, but isn't retaining it. For most things she has a freakishly excellent memory and part of why I am having her do another curriculum is to make sure she isn't just memorizing algorithms. I want her to understand the concepts.

[lwest]

58 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

For all of my kids, the single most powerful thing they did at that stage for them to really get place value and regrouping was to play tons of Monopoly, with just 1's, 10's, 100's and 1,000's.  You could see their brain really begin to internalize things, as they became faster at trading in their bills with the bank and paying, or collecting.

 

I will try even though I despise Monopoly lol.

[lwest]

4 minutes ago, Servant4Christ said:

Could be the way this particular curriculum teaches the concept or that she needs extra practice through multiple different methods until you find the one that clicks. We had to slow down and play with concepts until I was confident he had it before moving on. I learned the hard way that just plowing forward usually has future consequences.

She can do it the MUS way by lining up vertically. She can do it with blocks. But I want her to really get horizontal addition too because I feel like by learning to carry the one she doesn't really understand why she is carrying the one. Does that make sense? Or am I being overdoing it by not letting her stick to a method she gets?

[lwest]

16 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I would keep working on this the horizontal way, although I wouldn't worry about the BA shortcuts yet, since she doesn't seem solid on place value and therefore doesn't seem ready for those. Are you letting her use blocks every time she does addition? 

 

Thanks I will have her work on more horizontal addition. I let her use blocks and I usually suggest it when she's struggling, but she gets upset and acts like I'm punishing her for bringing out the blocks. 

I was reading on the BA website and they seem to really emphasize doing addition horizontally and discourage adding vertically and carrying the one. Should I avoid teaching the vertical way to do addition in the future? I have two younger kids and if it is better to avoid teaching it that way I will from the start. Or is it good to teach that way once they have a firm understanding of place value? I really thought my daughter understood but now I'm wondering if she was just able to memorize how to do the questions without internalizing the concept.

[lwest]

I think I'm too much of a list checker and I probably moved on to the shortcuts too quickly just because that was the next thing in the book. I need to remember what Lori D told me in another thread about me controlling the curriculum and not the other way around. 

[Rosie_0801]

The minicomputer lessons in CSMP are great for place value and the breaking up and rearranging of numbers. I wouldn't expect her to master it immediately, but the lessons are short and sweet and can probably be added into your rotation without being too much of a burden. If you want to give it a go, start with grade one.

[The Governess]

When I was teaching this concept, we started out with a ton of “make a ten” problems. So for example:

me: 8 + 5 = ?

dd: 10 + 3

We did problems like this until she was completely fluent. Then from there, scaled up to problems like:

me: 65 + 7 = 

dd: 70 + 2

Then we’d eventually move up to the next level: 

me: 34 + 22

dd: 40 + 16

and then to problems of the sort that you described.  If your dd isn’t retaining/mastering the concept at the higher level, I’d break it down into simpler concepts and wait for the fluency to come, then slowly work up. 

Another way to scaffold would be to break this up into steps. You could create a template with blanks for her to fill in for each problem:

46 + 118:

Look at the first number. What’s the next ten? __ (50)

How many ones do I need to make the next ten? __ (4)

If I move __ (4) from the second number to make the next ten with the first number, I will have ___ (50) + __ (114).

This is the same as  __(5) tens + __ (11) tens + __ (4) ones, which is the same as  __ (16) tens and __(4) ones, which is the same as ____ (164).

There are other ways you can explain/break this down into steps, but you get the idea. As you can see, when you write it out like that, you can see what a complex skill it is! It’s understandable that a 7 year old needs some scaffolding to be succsssful with it.  I know many adults that have trouble with manipulating numbers like this. 

I have one dd that could “see” the numbers breaking down into parts. This is the same dd that learned how to read when she was newly 3 because she could break words down into their phonograms like it was nothing. I have another dd that always struggled with this type of mental math. She has a hard time breaking the whole down into parts, across many subjects (spelling, grammar, phonics, foreign language).  She is actually pretty quick at mental math, but tries to cheat and visualize problems vertically rather than break them down this way. 😉

 

[lwest]

43 minutes ago, lovelearnandlive said:

When I was teaching this concept, we started out with a ton of “make a ten” problems. So for example:

 

This would probably work well with coins and kill two birds with one stone:) Now I just have to get my hands on some pennies (Canadian here).

Also, it is a much more complex skill than it appears to be at first. I have a really good memory and I was able to do very well with math without fully understanding some key concepts. I want better for my kids. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by lwest

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

A few possible tips:

- set aside the "tricks" methods for a bit, and just work on horizontal addition.  I have my kid place their index finger under the place value they are working in, add them, then slide their fingers to the next place value.  If they need to regroup, they would mentally (and out-loud) correct the previous place, say the new place, and then slide their fingers again.  And so on.  

- If necessary, I allowed them to take notes as they worked.  This is best on a whiteboard for quick erasing.  So, 157+385 might have the child write down 4, then erase and write down 53, then erase the 3 and finally write 542.  Out loud, this would sound like "400...530...542"  By shifting some of the working memory tasks to paper or out loud, it can free up some space for more computation.  

- Come back to the tricks with significantly easier numbers.  The problem given as an example seems fairy advanced for 2nd.  Singapore spends a lot of time adding 9, 19, 99, etc, by adding 10, 20, 100, then subtracting 1.  Then try it with 8s.  Work your way through, but each time make sure the subtraction is relatively explicit.  We do a lot of "giving back" for these types of problems.  I find telling the child they need to "give back" the extra that was added to make the problem easier worked well.  

So, for 46+118, the child would loan 4 to 46 to make the math easier.  50+118 is 168.  Then from this answer, they need to give back the 4, so 168-4 is 164.  I feel like you have to hold less in your head this way.  

[8filltheheart]

Quote

 194 + 153 = 200 + 14 + 7 instead of 200 + 140 + 7

Have you worked with manipulative so that she can see the regrouping?  100 rod 9 ten rods 4 ones + 100 rod 5 ten rods 3 one rods

Seeing the fact that she has 14 ten rods might help her solidify what she is doing.

FWIW, I teach my kids to just look for the easiest way to make 10s when adding.  I start it with single digit addition when they first start adding.  So, 7+5= 2+5+5  or 8+7= 8+2+5 or 5+3+7

What you are seeing BA is basically the same idea.  It is just moving numbers around to make addition simpler.  If the way the book is dividing up the numbers is making it more confusing, just try to explain with simpler problems and work toward more complex ones. If seeing it with manipulatives makes it easier to explain so that she can visualize what they are talking about, that's ok too.  49+61..... it is easier to just move the 1 from the 60 and make it 50 + 60.  THen move to 48+ 62, then 47+63, etc.  Once she really understands that concept with repeated examples, then move to "messier" examples.  49+62  and making it 50+60+the 1 left over, etc. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[Kathy in Richmond]

9 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

The minicomputer lessons in CSMP are great for place value and the breaking up and rearranging of numbers. I wouldn't expect her to master it immediately, but the lessons are short and sweet and can probably be added into your rotation without being too much of a burden. If you want to give it a go, start with grade one.

Since I can't like Rosie's posts, I'm just going to repeat it here with a link. 🙂 The minicomputer (and all there stuff) is quite good and fun for kids!

CSMP

[Ellie]

14 hours ago, lwest said:

Hello, I have a daughter (just about eight) and finishing grade 2. She did MUS Beta this year and did extremely well with it. She was able to get 90% and above on all the tests. 

I have had her working through BA 2 since she finished MUS Beta and I've run into problems. BA teaches horizontal addition and in addition it teaches addition by finding an easier number to work with. For example, 46+118 = 50+114. She is having trouble retaining this concept. She ends up messing up her place values. I've gone over it again and again and she will get it by the end of the lesson, but when we come back to it again the next day she has forgotten.

I admit I have gotten overly frustrated and lost patience with her over it. I've had to apologize to her.  

Should I just keep moving forward or is there a concept I've failed to teach her well enough? I don't know how to figure out whether we just keep marching forward and if it is just a development issue that she will understand when she is a bit older or if I need to back up and reteach something. 

I would expect a 7yo to have trouble retaining that concept. o_0 

Why not continue with MUS?

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, lwest said:

I have had her working through BA 2

If the problems didn't start till she started BA, then dump the BA. The problem you gave is pretty challenging cognitively, requiring significant working memory to accomplish. Although boardies here make BA sound mainstream, reality is it's not. It was designed by a company specializing in high IQ, math gifted kids who want to do competition math. It's really a niched company/approach.

If she has trouble doing the same thing with smaller numbers (22+19=21+20) then you have a question. Most people do two digit math mentally, so that's a good goal with a 7 yo, yes. If she's struggling with math tasks is a mainstream math curriculum meant for a general audience (BJU, MUS, Saxon, whatever), then I'd be concerned. But if the issue only occurs with BA, just move on from BA. There are so many other great things you could be using.

Have you thought about playing math games? Ronit Bird has a free card games ebook. Family Math is wonderful. I've used the Daily Math Warm-ups type books and like them a lot. They have them for word problems. 

13 hours ago, lwest said:

I let her use blocks and I usually suggest it when she's struggling, but she gets upset and acts like I'm punishing her for bringing out the blocks. 

She does not need the blocks when she can visualize. As long as she's visualizing and can slow down and see it in her mind, it's ok not to use the blocks. 

13 hours ago, lwest said:

I was reading on the BA website and they seem to really emphasize doing addition horizontally and discourage adding vertically and carrying the one.

And is that serving her well or is that an example of non mainstream instruction that is appropriate for the intended audience?

So I would connect this and say that using the blocks to slog through something that isn't mainstream instruction and isn't fitting well is maybe not the best use of your time. You don't want her frustrated about math. My ds has SLD math, so it's actually a disability for him. I never ever do that to him. We keep math awesome, no slogging. 

Move on to something that fits her better. It sounds like BA just doesn't. And that's ok. My ds has that high IQ and is actually considered math gifted on top of being math disabled. Yes, it's a thing, lol. No way would I try it with him. We have so much joy other ways with math. Why would I waste our math time doing something that isn't a good fit??

[PeterPan]

Have you looked at Tang Math? Seriously, there's so much out there you can be doing that will fit her. Don't give BA more time when it's frustrating her and not fitting. It's ok. Lots of types of math programs so everybody can find something that fits them. This is not a situation where slogging through it means you're doing a better job or something.

[Kathy in Richmond]

3 hours ago, square_25 said:

Is the mini-computer a mishmash of binary and base 10, if I'm looking at the right link? 

Yep, that's right. Here's a teacher guide with some games.

[PeterPan]

What is "normal" gets pretty skewed here on the boards.

https://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/math/math-grades-k-6/beast-academy-math

What seems like "losing track of place value" is also possibly "insufficient working memory". 

19 hours ago, lwest said:

Should I just keep moving forward or is there a concept I've failed to teach her well enough?

What you could do is do the same problems from the text together on a whiteboard, dropping the hundreds. That way if the issue is working memory, you can reduce the cognitive load and start to get it down to the actual math. Also, you could consider a kit like this or just replicating it yourself with what you already have https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/math/place-value/hands-on-addition-regrouping-kit/p/FF297  I used this specific kit with my ds. You'll see it in fact has cards with 2 digit + 2 digit (which we did mentally) and cards with longer (which we did written). Obviously you don't have to buy a kit for that. It was just idiotproof for me because we could do two of each kind as we worked through the kit. That's all we did, two a day, till it clicked. That also allows you to shake up the manipulatives, using them or not, using a different kind even. If she's burnt on c-rods, you could relabel clear plastic chips or punch paper or use Dollar Tree play money or abacus turned to show place value, whatever you want. 

What I did, when we worked through the kit, was I would get his solution and then ask for ANOTHER way he could have done it. I keep asking till I hear the strategy I wanted. So I didn't so much care about the right answer as the thought process. That way, if the curriculum has taught you 3-4 strategies, you get a chance to practice them. And if using a strategy isn't natural, she still gets a chance to practice it. And then you look at problems and discuss what strategy you're using and which might be more efficient or why you'd use it. And you can do that when you're just taking your time, doing 1-2 a day, and really talking about them and lingering. That was with 2 digit + 2 digit done mentally. That's developmentally appropriate.

 

[lwest]

I appreciate all the feedback. I will try and explain my reasoning. 

I have an extremely good memory. I don't know if photographic memory is a real thing or not, but I have the ability to read extremely fast and memorize easily. I still recall science notes from high school and picture the words on the page like I am reading them. I was able to do extremely well through high school and university because of my memory. The problem with this was that I could get by without understanding just by memorizing how to do problems. I was able to skip classes in university and then read the textbook the night before an exam and do very well. This made me academically lazy and did not work well for classes that required conceptual understanding (linear algebra for example). It was not ideal to have to relearn things I should have learned when I was younger at the same time as I was trying to complete challenging classes in university. I would have been much better off had I learned problem-solving skills earlier in life.

Both my daughters seem to have the same memory abilities as me. As an example, we've been doing IEW poetry memorization this year and both my DD7 and DD10 can memorize a very long poem in one sitting in under ten minutes. It does take them reciting it for several days after to commit it to long-term memory however. Because of this, I worried with math that they would do what I had done. Both girls were pulled from school last year so have one year of homeschooling under their belts. In school, they skirted by easily at the top of their classes with zero effort. I found out that my oldest got through grade three multiplication by memorizing the times tables they were tested on immediately before the test, but she only put it in her short-term memory. She would ace each test and then forget the facts usually by the next day.

The reason I have added BA in (as a supplement) is because I want to ensure that they cannot skirt by memorizing algorithms. I don't know that I would have discovered this issue with my DD7 if I hadn't been doing BA. She did every test in MUS with 90+ %. I don't think I am at the point where I should throw in the towel with BA yet. She thoroughly enjoys reading the guidebooks and does so often for fun. She loves the puzzles she has been doing. The frustration has just come out in the current chapter with the horizontal addition. She is an anxious child but she also has not had to overcome challenges in schoolwork until this year. I do agree that I don't need to follow every topic or have her complete every problem. I don't know if we should stick with MUS because it is 'working' because I'm not convinced that it truly is working the way I want it to.  I think I need to get her to understand horizontal addition to ensure she has a full understanding of place value. Just because she can break a number like 137 down no problem into 100 + 30 + 7 doesn't mean that she can use that understanding to add or regroup at this point. 

I am aware it is marketed to gifted students, but I had read many reviews from knowledgable people that the results with BA can be very good with bright students.

I don't want her frustrated, I want her challenged, but that seems to be a tricky balance. I'm not opposed to giving up BA at some point, I just don't necessarily agree that because we've hit a wall that I should throw it away.

[Little Green Leaves]

18 hours ago, lwest said:

It is usually on the horizontal addition when regrouping is involved that she messes up. So for example, she will rewrite 194 + 153 = 200 + 14 + 7 instead of 200 + 140 + 7. She can do it no problem if there is no regrouping. If I get her to add 194+153 vertically she can carry the one no problem. Now if I get her to do 194 + 153 the second way BA teaches, by having her make it 200 + 147 she really struggles with taking away what she has added to the first number. I have explained it multiple times the BA way and also using blocks and she gets it then, but isn't retaining it. For most things she has a freakishly excellent memory and part of why I am having her do another curriculum is to make sure she isn't just memorizing algorithms. I want her to understand the concepts.

What would happen if you added an additional step for now? So for your example, if she first rewrote 194+153 as 200 + 153 - 6 ? and then 200 + 147 ? 

It might help her to really spell out what she's doing.

 

[lwest]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Is there any particular reason you're using MUS?

To be honest, because I worried about my abilities to teach these concepts. I know I can do better than what they were doing at school, but I want them reach their full potential. 

Rant here. When I was searching and reading trying to figure out what was going on (math) with my DD10 before I pulled her from school I found some very interesting studies and articles. It seems that one of the main reasons for the wage gap between men and women is math. Math acts like a great big filter. Meaning that women tend to avoid higher education when math is involved which leads to lower paying careers. This is found even in education. Women tended towards elementary and men more towards high school and the difference was largely related to a fear of higher math. So this leads to elementary teachers being quite weak in math skills and this passes on to kids. 

I don't want my girls limited by a fear of math. If they choose careers that don't require university math I want them to choose based on preference, not a fear of math. Does that make sense?

I can spout out the algorithms all day long but I didn't want to teach my kids that way. I am brand-new to homeschooling this year and I liked the idea of video lessons as a crutch to help if I was unable to explain concepts to my kids. I watched an example video and the way Steve Demme explained addition (9+5 as making a 10 so needing to take from the 5) seemed like a great way to learn. I wanted a curriculum that was mastery and straightforward. After using it, I felt like the problem-solving skills weren't enough alone. My province is very weak on math. I took my oldest out for her grade 5 year and she tested in at a beginning grade 3 level on Math-U-See. She was able to complete Gamma, Delta, Epsilon and part of Zeta this year. She went from hating math to loving it. I have her doing BA (behind grade level) now and she is doing very well with it.

So I guess I don't really know where to go with any of my kids. I have an upcoming grade 1 student. He doesn't have the memory abilities of my girls but he just seems very intuitive with math. So I am using Miquon with him right now and think I will transition him into Singapore for grade 2. 

I also feel a lot more confident than I did at the beginning of the year. I just don't know if this is too many different curricula to use as I have a fourth (only turning 4).

[lwest]

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Not to  mention much less frustrating in the penmanship demanded of second graders. Lots of oral work still, especially early in the year when the group/regroup in double digits work begins.

 

This makes a ton of sense to me. My daughter's main struggle with vertical addition was lining up her numbers when writing them which caused errors. She knew which numbers went under each other but her penmanship would often lead to them being skewed to the side causing her to add ones with tens accidentally.

[8filltheheart]

15 minutes ago, lwest said:

To be honest, because I worried about my abilities to teach these concepts. I know I can do better than what they were doing at school, but I want them reach their full potential. 

Rant here. When I was searching and reading trying to figure out what was going on (math) with my DD10 before I pulled her from school I found some very interesting studies and articles. It seems that one of the main reasons for the wage gap between men and women is math. Math acts like a great big filter. Meaning that women tend to avoid higher education when math is involved which leads to lower paying careers. This is found even in education. Women tended towards elementary and men more towards high school and the difference was largely related to a fear of higher math. So this leads to elementary teachers being quite weak in math skills and this passes on to kids. 

I don't want my girls limited by a fear of math. If they choose careers that don't require university math I want them to choose based on preference, not a fear of math. Does that make sense?

I can spout out the algorithms all day long but I didn't want to teach my kids that way. I am brand-new to homeschooling this year and I liked the idea of video lessons as a crutch to help if I was unable to explain concepts to my kids. I watched an example video and the way Steve Demme explained addition (9+5 as making a 10 so needing to take from the 5) seemed like a great way to learn. I wanted a curriculum that was mastery and straightforward. After using it, I felt like the problem-solving skills weren't enough alone. My province is very weak on math. I took my oldest out for her grade 5 year and she tested in at a beginning grade 3 level on Math-U-See. She was able to complete Gamma, Delta, Epsilon and part of Zeta this year. She went from hating math to loving it. I have her doing BA (behind grade level) now and she is doing very well with it.

So I guess I don't really know where to go with any of my kids. I have an upcoming grade 1 student. He doesn't have the memory abilities of my girls but he just seems very intuitive with math. So I am using Miquon with him right now and think I will transition him into Singapore for grade 2. 

I also feel a lot more confident than I did at the beginning of the year. I just don't know if this is too many different curricula to use as I have a fourth (only turning 4).

I think you are putting too much stress on yourself.  I am cannot teach math beyond the 1st 1/2 of alg 2.  I relearned alg 1 and geo alongside my oldest.  As long as your being interactive with your kids and make sure that they really do KNOW what they are doing vs just doing, it will be ok.   Students can arrive at a solid understanding of math from many different directions.  Find what works for your family with you actively engaged with them, and it will be fine. 

[sweet2ndchance]

It is possible to have a good verbal working memory but for that to not crossover to numbers. I have a great verbal working memory, much like you describe. But I usually have to write down numbers to keep them straight. I understand place value perfectly, I just make silly mistakes if I try to do it all in my head.

[lwest]

5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think you are putting too much stress on yourself.  I am cannot teach math beyond the 1st 1/2 of alg 2.  I relearned alg 1 and geo alongside my oldest.  As long as your being interactive with your kids and make sure that they really do KNOW what they are doing vs just doing, it will be ok.   Students can arrive at a solid understanding of math from many different directions.  Find what works for your family with you actively engaged with them, and it will be fine. 

Thank you. How do you do things when your kids move past your abilities? Are you doomed to outsource things?

[8filltheheart]

6 hours ago, lwest said:

Thank you. How do you do things when your kids move past your abilities? Are you doomed to outsource things?

No, not necessarily. I'm not a typical 2020 homeschooler, though.  Outsourcing is not my default go-to option.  Once my kids surpass me in alg 2, I still sit with them while they work. I can reverse answers in the solutions manual to understand what they are supposed to be doing even if I can't do it myself without the SM.  Precal we handle similarly.  WIth my last 2 my kids, they watched DO's vidoes and then we used Sullivan's pre-cal text similarly to alg 2. I grade their math problem by problem to ensure they are mastering concepts as they go. We talk things through when they don't have a clear understanding.  If that isn't enough, we search online for additional video explanations.   It is an approach that has worked well here.   (Older siblings took AoPS, DE, or had a private tutor for pre-cal bc I had too many younger kids to dedicate this much time to 1 subject for 1 student.)  Cal....that is default not with me.  At that point, I do surrender.

FWIW, learning alongside your kids or finding resources to use at home for teaching subjects beyond your abilities are both effective if you are committed to engaging with your kids and ensuring that learning/mastery is occurring.  It isn't if you are handing it to them to do and then walking away.

[PeterPan]

18 hours ago, lwest said:

she only put it in her short-term memory. She would ace each test and then forget the facts usually by the next day.

 

15 hours ago, lwest said:

My daughter's main struggle with vertical addition was lining up her numbers when writing them which caused errors.

 

18 hours ago, lwest said:

She is an anxious child

I pulled these quotes to see if the dots could connect. I'm just thinking out loud here. It sounds like you're saying you find her difficulties *unexpected* and that by family and past performance you consider them quite bright, possibly gifted. So if I were just looking at what you're saying, I would be thinking about some basic things. I'm not saying like spend a ton of money and go crazy, just thinking.

-optometrist--My dd is quite bright but she had some developmental vision issues. The lining up you're describing can reflect vision issues. You would screen for these with a developmental optometrist. Are her other things solid, like she's comfortable writing? To what do you attribute the difficulty with lining up? And her math sense and sense of quantity is intact in all other situations, yes? Then we don't expect the explanation to be dysgraphia or dyscalculia (both of which my ds has btw). So maybe a simpler explanation like eyes. She could have some convergence issues or something a developmental optometrist would catch. Even just screening the eyes (annual exam but done with a developmental optometrist to get a screening) could be good.

-low working memory or processing speed--These are very common in ADHD and have zilcho to do with IQ. Well they do in the sense that you expect the processing speed and IQ to correlate and that discrepancy is a disability. So my dd has a super big spread in her IQ (GAI and processing speed, diagnosed ADHD btw) and those types of errors for her would be her brain bogging down because of the low processing speed. You can bump working memory to try to make up for the low processing speed, but really only meds alter processing speed.  So you'd be looking at psych evals. I'm not saying super rush, but look at your next point and just be thinking.

-anxiety--So if there's say some mild ADHD, you'd expect anxiety simply because they're frustrated at their inability to perform as they expect. So the low processing speed or working memory, etc. could affect her just enough that she gets anxious. ADHD meds bump those parameters, dropping the anxiety. It's just an explanation, a really mild explanation. Then you have clinical anxiety. Either way, you're back to psych evals. I will tell you I had *inklings* at age 7 with my dd and full blown oh my lands we really have to have evals by age 10-11. So if you were asking *me* I'd say to watch and be aggressive on evals. That's just me.

But if you're asking for what you can do that is *not* evals, I'd be saying mindfulness. Evidence based, 10 minutes a day gives a 30% EF bump. Won't hurt anything, costs nothing, and if done before math might put her in just a good enough place that she can get there. I'd probably also pair that with some metronome work and games for working memory, again because they cost nothing, are fun, and *might* help.

EF=executive function

[PeterPan]

11 minutes ago, square_25 said:

So, if she adds 43 + 28 vertically,

Yes, two digit math should be done mentally. My ds has SLD math and no stamina for the 6 years of human calculator number crunching regular curricula do. We did 2 digit math mentally and went immediately to super longs as soon as he knew his facts. We did the 3 and 4 digit cards and then started combining/expanding them into 5-6 digits asap. Doing 2 digit on paper makes exceptionally little sense. 

Ironically, getting to the full expression of the concept is the whole POINT of the MUS levels. I mean, I haven't used it, but I'm perplexed why a student who has supposedly completed a level of MUS successfully is struggling to do 2 digit mental math. MUS gives instruction in various types of strategies and visualizations that are similar to other major curricula (RightStart, BJU, etc.). So if the dc has completed the level successfully, they ought to be able to do this. Which goes back to the question of whether the problem is organic. 

So dropping it down to 2 digit + digit will let her see if the *skill* is mastered. Taking it larger is a working memory/processing speed game. And it's really not reasonable to assume all the cognitive and visual skills are intact and IQ appropriate just because one is. And it's certainly not reasonable to assume they are just because they are in the parent. My dd has had all kinds of challenges I never had. People are themselves and every dc needs to be interacted with individually, where they are, at face value. If the dc is having (mild) anxiety and bogging down, then drop the cognitive load and use strategies for anxiety and see what happens. If she's having trouble with vision skills, then get the eyes checked. Kids are individuals. It's very tempting to want things to work across kids when you're busy teaching a bunch, and sometimes you have to slow down and see them as individuals, stop the crazy train, figure out what's going on. Sometimes it's really inconvenient.

[PeterPan]

For op, something free https://www.shambhala.com/sittingstilllikeafrog/

Doing a body scan or just a few minutes of mindfulness is evidence based to bump executive function, improving emotional regulation, about to organize/focus. It would cost nothing, and who knows.

Also consider movement breaks or midline activities before math. If you have squash balls or bean bags, you can do simple versions of the BalavisX (rhythmic bouncing/tossing) at home. I did the simpler levels with my ds and he did more complicated levels (waterfall, multiple balls, etc.) with an OT. But again, something simple you can do to get her in a better place before math.

  

[PeterPan]

41 minutes ago, OKBud said:

You're getting into a place where you're not being nice with a seven year old about math

Bingo. Whatever is going on, whether it's processing speed or the curriculum or a vision problem or ADHD or whatever, will become evident with time. What op DOESN'T want is water under the bridge, regrets. It's better NOT to do the math and just move on and paint and do a nice Djeco art kit than it is to push and have bad memories. Homeschooling girls is HARD. You're going to have hormones, all kinds of things in a few years. You want good memories. If it's not working, go eat a cookie, go do some art. Kwim? 

We waited on evals with my dd till she was 11, and that was a lot of water under the bridge. It's better to sacrifice the content than it is to push through and have people blowing up or anxious or stressed. Live to come back at it another day. Drop the number of problems. Use these bodywork strategies. Consider evals. You wouldn't BELIEVE how many astonishingly bright kids we have over on LC who have some confounding issue on top of their significant brightness/giftedness. 

You don't need to homeschool from a place of fear. It won't lead you to good things. Any homeschool mom is competent to teach 1st grade math, and if it's not clicking it's something about them, not you. And what's the WORST that happens if the dc does not get the skill? Was it a life skill and necessary? Was it your fear? Sometimes it's a life skill and it's so important you're going to work on it now through high school. And sometimes it was just a more sophisticated, challenging expression of the skill and not quite in reach for that dc at that time. And that's OK. It's more important to respect the relationship and come back at it later, when you have a way to bring it in reach.

[Reisa]

On 6/6/2020 at 10:00 PM, lwest said:

It is usually on the horizontal addition when regrouping is involved that she messes up. So for example, she will rewrite 194 + 153 = 200 + 14 + 7 instead of 200 + 140 + 7. She can do it no problem if there is no regrouping. If I get her to add 194+153 vertically she can carry the one no problem. Now if I get her to do 194 + 153 the second way BA teaches, by having her make it 200 + 147 she really struggles with taking away what she has added to the first number. I have explained it multiple times the BA way and also using blocks and she gets it then, but isn't retaining it. For most things she has a freakishly excellent memory and part of why I am having her do another curriculum is to make sure she isn't just memorizing algorithms. I want her to understand the concepts.

What method is she using to subtract? 

If she's trying to mentally subtract 153 - 6 using regrouping, that's a lot of information to keep in her working memory!

Does she know how to "bridge through 10" when subtracting? 153 - 6 can be made easier: 153 - 3 - 3

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, square_25 said:

It's about my temper.

Oh I would NEVER have that happen. It's why I'm 40 pounds overweight, cuz I just eat. 

[daijobu]

21 hours ago, lwest said:

I don't want my girls limited by a fear of math. If they choose careers that don't require university math I want them to choose based on preference, not a fear of math. Does that make sense?

 

This is the number 1 reason I homeschool.  My weakness is teaching writing.  I wasn't worried about their math skills, but worried that I was causing them anxiety over their writing, so I outsourced that at around middle school.  

Locally I have seen families who pull their sons out of regular school to homeschool, but leave their girls enrolled.  The difference is boys are more likely to complain and make a fuss if they aren't challenged.  Many (not all) girls are more eager to please even if they aren't adequately challenged.  As long as they receive praise for sitting quietly at their desks and solving their multiplication problems, then they keep on in school.  

[lwest]

4 hours ago, Reisy said:

What method is she using to subtract? 

She was doing just fine with vertical subtraction with regrouping in Beta, but we haven't got to the horizontal subtraction in BA yet. I'm going to sit for awhile with the addition until she is fluent before I move on.

I shouldn't have worded that comment to imply outsourcing is bad. It is not a bad thing to be aware of and accept our own limitations.  I don't want outsourcing to be my default.  I have no one really to discuss these ideas with in real life. The homeschoolers in my area that I have met this year are mostly radical unschooling or just not similar to me in educational ideals. They often suggest doing coops for things like science but I really don't get the concept of pulling my kids from school (because I don't think they are getting a good enough education) to then put them in a coop with a parent I don't know very well and assume they are going to get a good education from them. My kids do primarily get socialization through other means so a coop wouldn't serve that purpose either.

 I am very thankful for the great feedback and advice here, including the advice calling me out:) I think I need to go back through the thread and take some notes. 

It did sting a bit to hear it suggested that I'm not nice to my DD7, but I needed to hear that. I've been thinking about it and this morning talked to her about math. I think I may have pinpointed the issue she is having: anxiety. She is very eager to please me and she feels like I'm angry with her when she doesn't get something. I'm not, but I do get frustrated sometimes. She perceives any slight sigh, look on my face, even a slight change in my tone as me being angry. So, I've apologized and promised her that I am not upset and that she can take all the time she needs to work things through. She wants me to sit right next to her while she is working so I guess she just needs extra reassurance. Changing my demeanour seemed to make a huge difference this morning. We went through some more horizontal addition and I do think she mostly understands but lacks fluency and it is not a good combination with her worrying the whole time she is working. I have to mindfully stay very upbeat and avoid giving her the perception that I'm upset with her. She did much better today when I stayed very lighthearted. Her anxiety has gone way down since bringing her home and I kind of brushed it off thinking it's not really a problem anymore. It seems to be wired into her though. When she was just a toddler she would have complete meltdowns if the corners of her blanket weren't perfectly straight and in the exact right position over her body. I have brought it up to the doctor in the past and she told me that DD isn't trying to be difficult and that her fears are real to her so I should just reassure her. Reassurance seemed to do a lot today during our math session.

I don't want homeschooling to be negative for my kids. That is the exact opposite of what I want so I need to be more mindful of giving off the impressions I make in my kids, especially DD7. 

I probably will break for summer soon, but I don't want to end on a sour note. I just need to shut down the math if I can't give her what she needs on a particular day.

I feel those of you who have discussed the issues with girls in school. My girls are very compliant and people-pleasers. My oldest DD would just be on the iPad or chrome books when she was done her work playing mindless games and didn't seem to care whether or not she was challenged. She is very social and cared more about seeing her friends. My DD7 would let all her anxiety out on me when she came home. When I talked to the teacher about her anxiety she was shocked to hear that she was anxious as she was always 'perfect' in class. They were always seated at the back of class. Whenever I would ask what they could work on the answer was always "Nothing. Just keep doing what you are doing." It is hard to complain about teachers because I know they have a lot to deal with. Both of my daughters classes were around 30 kids and there were some serious needs among some of the students that took up a lot of the teachers' time. How could I expect them to spend extra time on my girls? I have two younger sons and I can see how they might be totally different. I could see my DS6 acting out in school rather than being compliant. I sent him this year for kindergarten and he did not enjoy school at all. Right now during the shutdowns it is like pulling teeth trying to get him to do the work sent home from school. I have Miquon and started doing that with him. He begs me for "Mummy Math" rather than what got sent home from school. So, most weeks we have been reading and doing the Miquon and being very selective about what he does from school. He will be homeschooling next year along with my daughters.

Edited June 8, 2020 by lwest

[lwest]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

You could also see if you can think of something that's more fun for her and that will also allow her to practice horizontal addition.. games? Fun mathematical activities? Puzzles? I have lots of math crossword puzzles if you like 😄

She always asks for more of the BA honeycomb puzzles and I bet she would enjoy math crosswords if you have them🙂 She really likes games and puzzles. 

[lwest]

5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Having watched the teaching that goes on in those, it's all over the place...

I got asked at one of the local events if I would be interested in putting my kids in a science coop course on essential oils! My background is medical science and research so just a bit of a mismatch for me. I don't really want to get kicked out of our local homeschooling community because we do some great classes (drama, swimming lessons, etc.), so I just have to keep my mouth shut in real life and give polite excuses for some of the offerings.

[lwest]

21 hours ago, square_25 said:

DD7 is a very accelerated math learner -- she's about done with elementary school math and we've started working on pre-algebra/algebra

 That is awesome that you are able to do this with your DD. Do you have a general idea of how you are going to proceed with math for her or are you just going to go wide, exploring mathematical concepts outside of the traditional scope? 

[lwest]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Also consider movement breaks or midline activities before math. If you have squash balls or bean bags, you can do simple versions of the BalavisX (rhythmic bouncing/tossing) at home. I did the simpler levels with my ds and he did more complicated levels (waterfall, multiple balls, etc.) with an OT. But again, something simple you can do to get her in a better place before math.

I am going to try this for sure, thank you.

[lwest]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

ptometrist--My dd is quite bright but she had some developmental vision issues. The lining up you're describing can reflect vision issues. You would screen for these with a developmental optometrist. Are her other things solid, like she's comfortable writing? To what do you attribute the difficulty with lining up? And her math sense and sense of quantity is intact in all other situations, yes? Then we don't expect the explanation to be dysgraphia or dyscalculia (both of which my ds has btw). So maybe a simpler explanation like eyes. She could have some convergence issues or something a developmental optometrist would catch. Even just screening the eyes (annual exam but done with a developmental optometrist to get a screening) could be good.

 

We do yearly optometrist exams but haven't this year due to covid. I will take her in to be sure once everything is settled down here. I think the issue with her lining up her numbers is neatness. I've tried graph paper but it is too small for her her. Maybe I should find some larger graph paper? I try not to focus too much on it during math because there are so many other things she needs to concentrate on. Her writing when she is doing Zaner Bloser is top notch. Any time she writes on her own it is a complete mess. I think she has a hard time getting her ideas out while concentrating on neatness at the same time and probably especially so during math when her brain is working hard.

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, lwest said:

 

We do yearly optometrist exams but haven't this year due to covid. I will take her in to be sure once everything is settled down here. I think the issue with her lining up her numbers is neatness. I've tried graph paper but it is too small for her her. Maybe I should find some larger graph paper? I try not to focus too much on it during math because there are so many other things she needs to concentrate on. Her writing when she is doing Zaner Bloser is top notch. Any time she writes on her own it is a complete mess. I think she has a hard time getting her ideas out while concentrating on neatness at the same time and probably especially so during math when her brain is working hard.

You can find custom graph paper generators online, but a quick hack is to turn ruled notebook paper sideways. You could also consider letting her work on a whiteboard (I keep them in all sizes, including small ones for at the table) or even scribing. What you're describing with the difficulty doing the writing plus the cognitive load can be reflective of low processing speed or working memory. So if that's going on, then you scribing for her to allow the focus to be on the MATH, not the handwriting, would be an appropriate accommodation. You might try it and see if her level of output or stamina changes. 

Yes, I used to say you could literally see steam coming out of my dd's ears. Her processing speed was so discrepant from her IQ that when she would try to do things she was conceptually bright enough to do, her brain just bogged down. So if you want to make something more accessible, you do things to reduce the brain drain and keep the focus on what you really really want in the moment. This means scribing, going to nonverbal, shorter sessions, reduced workload, etc.

Does she have unevenness in her work week? Not on your end, but with her energy or readiness to participate? That would be a thing to watch for. Hopefully it's not. My ds has a processing speed discrepancy (more than 30 points) but that doesn't happen to him so much because his overall processing speed is still tolerable (mid 60s). My dd's processing speed was in the 30s before meds, so she would wear out from work one day and it would be such a slog the next. So it's just a thing you can watch for.

As far as the optometrist, you might look for a developmental optometrist, which you find through COVD. They can screen for extra things and are trained to be more thorough for developmental vision. The issue with the lining up could be a convergence issue, and a dev. optom. is the one to catch and treat that.

Does she have any sensory issues like textures or foods or sounds or anything bothering her?

Edited June 8, 2020 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

On 6/8/2020 at 9:27 AM, OKBud said:

Oh, sure. Think of literally anything having to do with math, then think of the most outrageously round-about way a child could use to arrive at the correct answer. Then think of the most tedious process imaginable that might need to be employed in getting someone to explain to their thinking. 

I'm trying to think of something specific.... but like he would understand for example that fractions are little pieces of division problems. He would conjur up the correct answer to problems involving fractions, seemingly out of thin air.

I have one of those kids, lol! He's gifted plus he has ASD and ADHD. He's tutored for math at this point, and his tutor is quite impressed with how he can use math in ways she's never seen but still be conceptually sound. He'll use most any roundabout logic + arithmetic to avoid actually using algebra.

We did Dimensions Math for a bit in 7th and 8th, and he would do fine with the easy problems, struggle, often unsuccessfully, with the intermediate ones, and then solve the enrichment problems almost as soon as he read them (and explain them, which is saying a lot because he has expressive language issues). The enrichment problems usually required those intuitive but logical leaps. 

On the horizontal addition--I would suggest maybe doing them the Singapore way that another poster mentioned. I've never found value personally in doing it the way BA does it. Breaking it into place value and then adding while understanding the regrouping? Yes, for sure. But transferring bits from one number to another? Only for certain combinations of numbers. The Singapore way helps me a lot more, and it's accomplishing the same thing as BA, but it's held in memory differently, and that is a more intuitive way to me. I tend to have my own shortcuts that I developed as a kid, and they involve visualizing it on a number chart, but it does involve regrouping tens--just not in a way that I can easily describe.

If working memory does turn out to be an issue, I would look into evals. As Peter Pan has noted, it goes along with ADHD/anxiety, and it will rear its ugly head in other ways too. It can be very hard if the child is borderline too--the constant compensating at a high level is exhausting, and that kind of compensating takes its toll in stress levels and later on in adulthood it's harder to unlearn unhelpful strategies and build better strategies. It's much nicer to learn ways to work with it early on.

[kbutton]

On 6/7/2020 at 3:18 AM, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

A few possible tips:

- set aside the "tricks" methods for a bit, and just work on horizontal addition.  I have my kid place their index finger under the place value they are working in, add them, then slide their fingers to the next place value.  If they need to regroup, they would mentally (and out-loud) correct the previous place, say the new place, and then slide their fingers again.  And so on.  

- If necessary, I allowed them to take notes as they worked.  This is best on a whiteboard for quick erasing.  So, 157+385 might have the child write down 4, then erase and write down 53, then erase the 3 and finally write 542.  Out loud, this would sound like "400...530...542"  By shifting some of the working memory tasks to paper or out loud, it can free up some space for more computation.  

- Come back to the tricks with significantly easier numbers.  The problem given as an example seems fairy advanced for 2nd.  Singapore spends a lot of time adding 9, 19, 99, etc, by adding 10, 20, 100, then subtracting 1.  Then try it with 8s.  Work your way through, but each time make sure the subtraction is relatively explicit.  We do a lot of "giving back" for these types of problems.  I find telling the child they need to "give back" the extra that was added to make the problem easier worked well.  

So, for 46+118, the child would loan 4 to 46 to make the math easier.  50+118 is 168.  Then from this answer, they need to give back the 4, so 168-4 is 164.  I feel like you have to hold less in your head this way.  

 

6 hours ago, OKBud said:

How do they do it? I never used the lower levels of Singapore.

I copied it in above. 

 

[Sarah0000]

When my kiddos first start learning to mentally add and subtract by place value I have them say the place value with the digit. So as they do each place they would answer "2 hundreds, 4 tens, 3 ones which is 243." It forces them to pay attention to the place they are working in.