What can *I* do? How do I talk about race? S/o from BlsdMom’s post

[EmseB]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

If a theory is valid, work with me here, should't it be supported by more than white people's opinions and include published scholarship in various disciplines? Wouldn't its findings be validated by multiple people across disciplines? Critical race theory has data to support it. What is the research-based alternative?

That's rather begging the question.

Did you read the critique? Have you explored those authors who are critical of crt and there reasons for it? Do you think they are going to get published in a place where crt is seen as the dominant world view? Are there any poc who disagree with crt you would be willing to read? Most I know of are called vile names on social media and essentially shouted out of the room precisely because they don't subscribe to crt and intersectionality.

CRT as a researched-based discipline is kind of a self-licking ice cream cone in that respect. It's a social science and philosophy that begs its own questions among academics. Departments that publish the research you are speaking of would absolutely not give one red cent or even the time of day to someone who doesn't agree intersectionality and crt are foundational truths that society is based on.

I kinda realize why AM didn't bother now because no one wants to engage in the critque but rather whether critiquing the idea is even legitimate in the first place.

[EmseB]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

What is the 'power structure' of intersectionality and how has it impacted your life? A power structure, by its very definition, has some kind of systemic support and infrastructure to enforce it across a variety of social groups. Please define/explain what that is.

You want me to explain intersectionality? Seriously? Lol.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, EmseB said:

You want me to explain intersectionality? Seriously? Lol.

 

No. I want someone to explain exactly what I said, how the 'power structure' (as yet undefined) of intersectionality has affected their lives.  What is this power structure?

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, EmseB said:

That's rather begging the question.

Did you read the critique? Have you explored those authors who are critical of crt and there reasons for it? Do you think they are going to get published in a place where crt is seen as the dominant world view? Are there any poc who disagree with crt you would be willing to read? Most I know of are called vile names on social media and essentially shouted out of the room precisely because they don't subscribe to crt and intersectionality.

CRT as a researched-based discipline is kind of a self-licking ice cream cone in that respect. It's a social science and philosophy that begs its own questions among academics. Departments that publish the research you are speaking of would absolutely not give one red cent or even the time of day to someone who doesn't agree intersectionality and crt are foundational truths that society is based on.

I kinda realize why AM didn't bother now because no one wants to engage in the critque but rather whether critiquing the idea is even legitimate in the first place.

 

I think *any* research or critique that is able to be duplicated will be published. I think any critique that is based on non-cherry picked facts will be published somewhere. There's nothing illegitimate about any critique. I simply think any critique that is based on more than hyperventilation and hurt feelings will be supported by multiple people who study the discipline for a living. I'm asking for supporting documentation. Do you have any?

Edited June 9, 2020 by Sneezyone

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I think *any* research or critique that is able to be duplicated will be published. I think any critique that is based on non-cherry picked facts will be published somewhere. There's nothing illegitimate about any critique. I simply think any critique that is based on more than hyperventilation and hurt feelings will be supported by multiple people who study the discipline for a living. I'm asking for supporting documentation. Do you have any?

Supporting documentation for people who disagree with crt and intersectionality as a foundational worldview? There are plenty. I am not a search engine though and crt is not a hard science anyway.

Paraphrasing, AM said not everyone takes the recommended books as gospel truth and one should read with their critical thinking cap on. Someone asked what specific issues she had with them. AM had other things going on and didn't want to get bogged down in a discussion like this. I provided three internet *opinion articles* about the underlying philosophies of the books and what AM may have been thinking of when she originally posted. I'm not in an academic debate and doing research because someone demands it on an internet discussion board.

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

That's rather begging the question.

Did you read the critique? Have you explored those authors who are critical of crt and there reasons for it? Do you think they are going to get published in a place where crt is seen as the dominant world view? Are there any poc who disagree with crt you would be willing to read? Most I know of are called vile names on social media and essentially shouted out of the room precisely because they don't subscribe to crt and intersectionality.

CRT as a researched-based discipline is kind of a self-licking ice cream cone in that respect. It's a social science and philosophy that begs its own questions among academics. Departments that publish the research you are speaking of would absolutely not give one red cent or even the time of day to someone who doesn't agree intersectionality and crt are foundational truths that society is based on.

I kinda realize why AM didn't bother now because no one wants to engage in the critque but rather whether critiquing the idea is even legitimate in the first place.

Have you read the book?  What books have you read on racism, black history, or just by black authors,  and what did you take away from them?  Please share your journey. 

That is what the OP asked for, to have a discussion about what to *do* about racism, how to talk about race, so it's really weird to come into this thread and tell us why we shouldn't, or that you don't want to engage, or why XYZ theories are all wrong if you haven't done anything other than read other people's thoughts on these ideas, but have not engaged with them yourself.  It's like if someone started a thread "please share how to eat healthfully as a vegan" and someone comes in and shares links to paleo sites about how wrongheaded veganism is, and then when asked if you've ever tried veganism yourself, won't even admit to ever having eaten a vegetable and you find it rude that anyone would ask.

Personally, I would not recommend this particular book you've mentioned as first reading on the subject, as 1) I don't think it's a good starting point on the topic  and 2) its author is white.   White person talking about white people.  It might help me understand why white people get all defensive when threads like this pop up, but it won't tell me much about black people, their thoughts, or their history.  I think the right starting place is to read a lot of books on history (or historical fiction) by people of color, to fill in those places in history that the textbooks 'forgot' to teach you.  Read a few of them, not just one, get different viewpoints.  Then you'll be on much better footing to see where people are coming from and get a more complete picture of why the heck are 'they' so angry?   First step: Listen to black people.  

Intersectionality just means that you're a member of more than one minority that is not the 'default' (cis-gendered white male), so you get extra helpings of othering from society.  You're telling me it's not harder to be a queer black woman, than any one of those things alone?  

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Supporting documentation for people who disagree with crt and intersectionality as a foundational worldview? There are plenty. I am not a search engine though and crt is not a hard science anyway.

Paraphrasing, AM said not everyone takes the recommended books as gospel truth and one should read with their critical thinking cap on. Someone asked what specific issues she had with them. AM had other things going on and didn't want to get bogged down in a discussion like this. I provided three internet *opinion articles* about the underlying philosophies of the books and what AM may have been thinking of when she originally posted. I'm not in an academic debate and doing research because someone demands it on an internet discussion board.

 

Social science is science. It really shouldn't be  that hard to find a published critique that meets journalistic standards. The fact that not everyone takes the recommended books as Gospel doesn't negate the underlying premise of CRT. This is a homeschooling forum. If you're going to allege that something is, essentially, nonsense and not to be believed you ought to be able to back that up. Nothing is being demanded of you. If you don't wish to, or are unable to, provide anything to support your argument just say so. That's perfectly OK. Putting something out there as an alternative tho with nothing to back it up is just throwing sand in the gears.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

Have you read the book?  What books have you read on racism, black history, or just by black authors,  and what did you take away from them?  Please share your journey. 

That is what the OP asked for, to have a discussion about what to *do* about racism, how to talk about race, so it's really weird to come into this thread and tell us why we shouldn't, or that you don't want to engage, or why XYZ theories are all wrong if you haven't done anything other than read other people's thoughts on these ideas, but have not engaged with them yourself.  It's like if someone started a thread "please share how to eat healthfully as a vegan" and someone comes in and shares links to paleo sites about how wrongheaded veganism is, and then when asked if you've ever tried veganism yourself, won't even admit to ever having eaten a vegetable and you find it rude that anyone would ask.

Personally, I would not recommend this particular book you've mentioned as first reading on the subject, as 1) I don't think it's a good starting point on the topic  and 2) its author is white.   White person talking about white people.  It might help me understand why white people get all defensive when threads like this pop up, but it won't tell me much about black people, their thoughts, or their history.  I think the right starting place is to read a lot of books on history (or historical fiction) by people of color, to fill in those places in history that the textbooks 'forgot' to teach you.  Read a few of them, not just one, get different viewpoints.  Then you'll be on much better footing to see where people are coming from and get a more complete picture of why the heck are 'they' so angry?   First step: Listen to black people.  

Intersectionality just means that you're a member of more than one minority that is not the 'default' (cis-gendered white male), so you get extra helpings of othering from society.  You're telling me it's not harder to be a queer black woman, than any one of those things alone?  

 

Indeed. I always recommend, as a starting point, seminal works by BLACK authors on the topic. The debate predates any modern author. The debate (internal to the black community) between W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington is more than enough to get started. 

[prairiewindmomma]

46 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I would say thay at least the article about crt acknowlges a problem with how poc are treated in America. Disagreeing with the power structure of intersectionality or the underpinnings of crt doesn't mean one doesn't think there is a problem or problems to solve.

The biggest issue I see as it relates to current events is that injustice is going to happen. It's going to happen over and over and over again even if people, any one group of people, get the all of the reforms they want. What do we do when injustice happens? How do I respond as an individual?

But secondly is the fact that groups can't reconcile. Especially in the US there is no one or two or three monolithic groups with the voice of one person that would ever agree on terms of reconciliation. Individuals can reconcile with each other, but races cannot, at least in my view.

I'm trying to learn more about this.  Where do you think I should read?  I'm trying to understand different points of view here, because I think in my personal circle of people, we tend to be coming at this from some very different view points.  I think one of my friends lines up with the conservative voices in this Vox article.....about how she acknowledges that there are systemic problems, but thinks that rectifying them is just going to continue a cycle of oppression, we'll just be oppressing different people.  

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/5/20/18542843/intersectionality-conservatism-law-race-gender-discrimination

This is Crenshaw's article....AFAIK the(?) first time intersectionality was coined as a scholarly phrase. https://www.jstor.org/stable/1229039?seq=1  It's a free online read.

[prairiewindmomma]

@EmseB, just saw your last post while I was reading. Don't see my post as a demand you offer up scholarly proof. 🙂 It was a sincere question, but I get we all have other stuff going on IRL and can't necessarily devote a time to digging up links.

I'm just, uh, literally waiting for paint to dry. (I'm painting trim today.)

[BeachGal]

Another important concept is to understand why and how we "other" groups of people.

My husband and I recently watched a Great Course class called The Science of Mindfulness. In one of the lectures, the Professor -- Ron Siegel -- explained that the posterior cingulate cortex in the brain is an area that determines (not sure if that's the right word) self and our relation to others. More connections in this area can lead to de-othering groups of people. They were able to do this with meditation, any kind, 20" per day, and noticed changes -- more connections -- in functional MRI in about four days. So, one way to improve relations with people is to practice meditation. I thought it was interesting.

[Pam in CT]

40 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Indeed. I always recommend, as a starting point, seminal works by BLACK authors on the topic. The debate predates any modern author. The debate (internal to the black community) between W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington is more than enough to get started. 

As a premise: I truly believe that black people know more about the lived experience of being black in America, than white people.

It's a premise, and as such I cannot PROVE this. Nonetheless, as premises go, it checks out pretty solidly for me.  

(Similarly: mothers of large families know more about the experience of mothering large families; mothers of kids with significant disabilities know more about the experience of raising kids with significant disabilities; mothers who homeschool know more about homeschooling, and etc.)

 

So just as I wouldn't start a journey to learn about homeschooling from a public school teacher... or (say) learning about the challenges of the elderly from a 30-something hot shot... or etc... I would not START a journey to learn about racism from white authors.  

Even less so, if the premise is an upfront rejection that any systemic problem exists at all, only individual malice.... so that all we should do in terms of aggregate public policy, is nothing.  

 

But as is so often the case, it does come down to premises.  So if you KNOW upfront which of those two (unprovable) premises more-or-less feels right to you, then you should go there first.  And if upon critical reading, including plumbing whichever premise you start with, the body of work *still* feels right, then you're good.

We're all grownups here. We're all able to peel back to the premises (even if, as sometimes happens particularly in rhetorical writing, they are not always made explicit.)

Edited June 9, 2020 by Pam in CT
omitted word

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

As a premise: I truly believe that black people know more about the lived experience of being black in America, than white people.

It's a premise, and as such I cannot PROVE this. Nonetheless, as premises go, it checks out pretty solidly for me.  

(Similarly: mothers of large families know more about the experience of mothering large families; mothers of kids with significant disabilities know more about the experience of raising kids with significant disabilities; mothers who homeschool know more about homeschooling, and etc.)

 

So just as I wouldn't start a journey to learn about homeschooling from a public school teacher... or (say) learning about the challenges of the elderly from a 30-something hot shot... or etc... I would not START a journey to learn about racism from white authors.  

Even less so, if the premise is an upfront rejection that any systemic problem exists at all, only individual malice.... so that all we should do in terms of aggregate public policy, is nothing.  

 

But as is so often the case, it does come down to premises.  So if you KNOW upfront which of those two (unprovable) premises more-or-less feels right to you, then you should go there first.  And if upon critical reading, including plumbing whichever premise you start with, the body of work *still* feels right, then you're good.

We're all grownups here. We're all able to peel back to the premises (even if, as sometimes happens particularly in rhetorical writing, they are not always made explicit.)

 

Works of the same time period by white people, for self-evident reasons, cast aside arguments/or argue that black Americans are not human at all. While white 'scholars' were busy arguing that black people were ignoble, hopeless beasts, black people were busy arguing about the best way to convince white people that they were, indeed, sentient beings, equally valued by God. When people advance modern arguments based on the former while ignoring contemporaneous arguments that demonstrate, prima facie, the latter, I question their motives.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pam in CT]

re peeling back to another set of dueling premises, are blacks even human?

18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Works of the same time period by white people, for self-evident reasons, cast aside/argue that black Americans are not human at all. While white 'scholars' were busy arguing that black people were ignoble, hopeless beasts, black people were busy arguing about the best way to convince white people that they were, indeed, sentient beings, equally valued by God. When people advance modern arguments based on the former while ignoring contemporaneous arguments that demonstrate, prima facie, the latter, I question their motives.

 

Henry Louis Gates quoting Thomas Jefferson re Phillis Wheatley, rather ironically arguing that her gifts were produced "only" by religion, rather than the in his estimation higher-order gifts of intellect and imagination.

Quote

Jefferson took a harsher tone towards Wheatley and Black people, saying: "Misery is often the parent of the most affecting touches in poetry. Among the blacks is misery enough, God knows, but no poetry. Love is the peculiar oestrum of the poet. Their love is ardent, but it kindles the senses only, not the imagination. Religion, indeed, has produced a Phillis Weatley [sic]; but it could not produce a poet"...

Phillis is, for Jefferson, an example of a product of religion, of mindless repetition and imitation, without being the product of intellect, of reflection. True art requires a sublime combination of feeling and reflection"

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Pam in CT
dueling, not "dualing" which, I don't even know how that got past spell check

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, kand said:

I read the critique. After reading it, I was left with a question mark over my head because it didn’t read true to me and rather felt like a super long winded dismissal of systemic racism and saying all lives matter, so I kept scrolling and saw the long list of names of contributors with pictures of white faces next to them. That matters to me, because if you have an entire website that seems devoted to discussing these issues currently but you haven’t included any Black voices, well, in the very least that leads me to want to know who these people are that people are supposed to take seriously, even when there’s not a lot of substance behind what they’re saying. 
 

It’s like when I’m reading COVID-19 stuff, and someone makes a claim that disagrees with everything else I’ve read. If they’re talking about airborne transmission and I scroll down and I see they are a computer programmer, it’s going to carry less weight for me than if I scroll down and see they have a PhD in aerosol science. In this case, I’m seeing these are people who are tweeting about it being wrong to teach kids about racism and retweeting lots of Joel Osteen. Sorry, it just doesn’t carry weight for me.

The interesting thing is, I understand your underlying argument about going against the dominant narrative and it being difficult for that narrative to even be allowed by main stream media. I’m experiencing that with another issue right now. I totally get that. I just don’t agree in this case. On the other hand, I have seen quite a number of critiques on the White Fragility book, including by people of color, and based on what I’ve read, that book is unlikely to be a top pick for me. There are lots and lots of others that have been shared here that look really interesting to me, though. One of my kids read Ta- Nehisi Coates’ “Between the World and Me” last quarter, and it was challenging for her, and put her on the defensive at times, but I think it was an important read and she grew from reading it.

I appreciate you reading the article. I think your summary is a bit of an oversimplification of what's being said (although there is, I think, a simple disagreement in there in fundamental beliefs about humanity and society and how individuals relate to one another). I disagree with everything Joel Osteen stands for so I haven't read anything he's said on this issue in particular, however that is coming into play.

The foremost experts I know who disagree on crt are pastors (experts in the sense that they regularly study and write about the issue of race and humanity) though the one's whom I know who disagree with crt fundamentals and are black are, in general, excoriated on social media pretty regularly and called stooges and worse. Secular people who I know who disagree are considered persona non grata in academia and elsewhere *because* they write from a differing viewpoint. In other words, their disagreement is de facto evidence of their incompetence and lack of expertise and knowledge on the subject. Anyway, I appreciate your response.

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, EmseB said:

I appreciate you reading the article. I think your summary is a bit of an oversimplification of what's being said (although there is, I think, a simple disagreement in there in fundamental beliefs about humanity and society and how individuals relate to one another). I disagree with everything Joel Osteen stands for so I haven't read anything he's said on this issue in particular, however that is coming into play.

The foremost experts I know who disagree on crt are pastors (experts in the sense that they regularly study and write about the issue of race and humanity) though the one's whom I know who disagree with crt fundamentals and are black are, in general, excoriated on social media pretty regularly and called stooges and worse. Secular people who I know who disagree are considered persona non grata in academia and elsewhere *because* they write from a differing viewpoint. In other words, their disagreement is de facto evidence of their incompetence and lack of expertise and knowledge on the subject. Anyway, I appreciate your response.

 

The credentials and bonafides of these pastors cannot be assessed without more information.

[Stacia]

From the New York Public Library: Schomburg Center Black Liberation Reading List

"For 95 years, the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture has preserved, protected, and fostered a greater understanding of the Black experience through its collections, exhibitions, programs, and scholarship. In response to the uprisings across the globe demanding justice for Black lives, the Schomburg Center has created a Black Liberation Reading List. The 95 titles on the list represent books we and the public turn to regularly as activists, students, archivists, and curators, with a particular focus on books by Black authors and those whose papers we steward.

..."

https://www.nypl.org/blog/2020/06/09/schomburg-center-black-liberation-reading-list

[Stacia]

And this advice too...

 

 

[BlsdMama]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:03 AM, Quill said:

 

When the kneeling football players happened, some friends and family were furious about it (you know how that went!), but I almost always avoided the topic entirely, in part because I don’t care about football one iota so I could ignore it with relative ease, but also because I didn’t want to have the conflict about it. If a friend said, “Well, I’m boycotting football!” I just shrugged. Internally, I felt like those players had every right to kneel as a peaceful protest but I did not want to have a conflict with a friend/family about it. (I hate football anyway and think the NFL is inherently racist.) 

I’m looking for guidance. I feel very useless as a white middle class, middle aged woman. I am married to someone who really likes our current administration. I don’t know how to help someone see their own lens when they don’t know it is there. I don’t want to simply have unproductive arguments at the dinner table. How do I help that happen? Additionally, how do I help with the larger narrative in our society? 

In a smarta$$ comment, you could just dress in Iowa black and yellow.  Apparently our football team has officially ticked every sport fan off everywhere.  I know because my stupid FB feed is FLOODED with anger.  People who were willing to live/let live over the Minneapolis outrage (REaLLY?!) are now outraged.  The commentary that is running through my head as to who that makes them as humans you don't EVEN want to go there.

I live a "vanilla existence" to put into terms a black friend summed up for me - and it's true.  Even the black kids I know were raised in white families, it's doubtful there is a person alive in 2020, my age or younger, who has had less exposure to black community.  And, like you, I recognize my limitations.  I have my hands absolutely full raising my kids with my health issues right now.  Otherwise? I'd start in the schools - do they accept volunteers? People to teach reading skills? Help with homework?  Education is going to be the key to change.  

I think narratives need to change from, "You're being held down," to sharing stories of success.  Even now, the white folk are going to sweep in and say, You know when the black community needed us to protest so they could succeed?" Mark my words, this will be rewritten as a white hero story.  Don't be the hero - be the humble servant.  Serve where there is need. (So sayeth the person who can't - I recognize the irony.)

My closest black friend is a woman from a board that I met 19 years ago.  Our kids are the same ages/stages.  We share much alike.  So I went to her and said, "Now what?"  And essentially she said not to underestimate the sphere of influence - our kids, our grandkids, our families to some degree.  Some won't have the conversation.  Some can't be swayed.  But, those who can?

I was incredibly encouraged yesterday by a young cousin of mine.  He's fanatical about sports. His insight and understanding is beyond his upbringing.  I was so grateful to see someone else in the family gets it. 

I'm also picking my battles pretty careful these days.  I've always loved the art of argument, logic, discussion, lively debate....  I have an opinion on everything (roll eyes) and I enjoy other people who feel discussion should be a sport.  But, I'm starting to recognize that if I lend my voice to every argument, the words I speak have less impact.  Fewer words carefully chosen?  

[Wheres Toto]

16 hours ago, EmseB said:

I would say thay at least the article about crt acknowlges a problem with how poc are treated in America. Disagreeing with the power structure of intersectionality or the underpinnings of crt doesn't mean one doesn't think there is a problem or problems to solve.

The biggest issue I see as it relates to current events is that injustice is going to happen. It's going to happen over and over and over again even if people, any one group of people, get the all of the reforms they want. What do we do when injustice happens? How do I respond as an individual?

But secondly is the fact that groups can't reconcile. Especially in the US there is no one or two or three monolithic groups with the voice of one person that would ever agree on terms of reconciliation. Individuals can reconcile with each other, but races cannot, at least in my view.

This view is a completely new one to me.   If I'm understanding correctly, the idea is that:

1.  Some group will always be oppressed so if we lift up on group, another is just going to take it's place as the oppressed? 
(I disagree with this because it seems like every group except white males has some form of oppression in this country, and why can't everyone be lifted up?  I saw one meme somewhere that said something like, it's not pie giving people rights doesn't take away yours.  This sounds like an argument for the people who are obtaining or maintaining exalted positions off of others to keep their exalted positions).

2.  Races getting along is impossible.
(But if the majority of individuals can get along, as long as people are being treated fairly and as people, doesn't that basically work out to the larger demographics getting along, since they are not a monolithic group with one person in charge?   or if 90% of people regardless of race get along and reconcile their differences, does it matter if person A in charge of organization A doesn't want to get along with person B in charge of organization B?)

I'm not sure if I'm really understanding, but I am, I find that a very depressing point of view. 

[Pam in CT]

re NY Public Library/Schomburg list

7 hours ago, Stacia said:

From the New York Public Library: Schomburg Center Black Liberation Reading List

"For 95 years, the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture has preserved, protected, and fostered a greater understanding of the Black experience through its collections, exhibitions, programs, and scholarship. In response to the uprisings across the globe demanding justice for Black lives, the Schomburg Center has created a Black Liberation Reading List. The 95 titles on the list represent books we and the public turn to regularly as activists, students, archivists, and curators, with a particular focus on books by Black authors and those whose papers we steward.

..."

https://www.nypl.org/blog/2020/06/09/schomburg-center-black-liberation-reading-list

 

That is a great list, thank you.

In my genre-spanning rant, I'd forgotten to plug the power of theater if "that's* a portal that opens doors of understanding; and my son lives (well, used to, before CoronApocalypse) smack in August Wilson land.  Lorraine Hansbury, Ntozage Shange, Athol Fugard (white, South African, painfully relevant to the US).

@Stacia and others - have you read The Warmth of Other Suns?  Just added to the cart (seems like old times, old friend LOL)

[HeartString]

16 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The debate predates any modern author. The debate (internal to the black community) between W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington is more than enough to get started.

I had never heard of this. DuBois got covered some in my sociological theory classes, but not a whole lot.  So I found this..

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/debate-w-e-b-du-bois-and-booker-t-washington/
 

and it’s interesting that the same debate is still being played out more than 100 years later.  
 

 

 

ooker T. Washington, educator, reformer and the most influentional black leader of his time (1856-1915) preached a philosophy of self-help, racial solidarity and accomodation. He urged blacks to accept discrimination for the time being and concentrate on elevating themselves through hard work and material prosperity. He believed in education in the crafts, industrial and farming skills and the cultivation of the virtues of patience, enterprise and thrift. This, he said, would win the respect of whites and lead to African Americans being fully accepted as citizens and integrated into all strata of society.

W.E.B. Du Bois, a towering black intellectual, scholar and political thinker (1868-1963) said no–Washington’s strategy would serve only to perpetuate white oppression. Du Bois advocated political action and a civil rights agenda (he helped found the NAACP). In addition, he argued that social change could be accomplished by developing the small group of college-educated blacks he called “the Talented Tenth:”

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Cnew02

[Matryoshka]

48 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

 

@Stacia and others - have you read The Warmth of Other Suns?  Just added to the cart (seems like old times, old friend LOL)

I have , and I highly, highly, highly recommend it.  I thought it was fantastic. If anyone wants to learn more about black history, that book is full of it, and it's told through the eyes of individuals that the author interviewed to get their stories, which are all quite different, and quite interesting.  It is not at all dry.

[Stacia]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

In my genre-spanning rant, I'd forgotten to plug the power of theater if "that's* a portal that opens doors of understanding; and my son lives (well, used to, before CoronApocalypse) smack in August Wilson land.  Lorraine Hansbury, Ntozage Shange, Athol Fugard (white, South African, painfully relevant to the US).

@Stacia and others - have you read The Warmth of Other Suns?  Just added to the cart (seems like old times, old friend LOL)

No, haven't read The Warmth of Other Suns. Yet. I intend to.

I read some August Wilson last year. I'm not even much of a fan of plays, but I am glad I read them. 

I really need to update that big list of mine. I've definitely got some stuff I could add.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Cnew02 said:

I had never heard of this. DuBois got covered some in my sociological theory classes, but not a whole lot.  So I found this..

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/debate-w-e-b-du-bois-and-booker-t-washington/
 

and it’s interesting that the same debate is still being played out more than 100 years later.  

 

A lot of people haven't. Both strains of thought run all up and through these discussions from respectability politics (e.g. It only matters when the police kill a "good black" which, according to some, has never happened), to an emphasis on "firsts" (e.g. the first black service chief in the history of the US Armed forces was confirmed yesterday), as well as to what extent we should protect ourselves by appeasing white people and/or self-segregate vs. confront racism and demand equality through protest. One hundred years later, Booker T.'s positions (and his ideological progeny) have largely fallen out of favor because of the concrete gains achieved by following DuBois' approach. No one on that side can point to similar gains from following Booker T.'s model. In fact, when it was tried, black Wall Street was razed and the 60s separatist movements were infiltrated and dismantled by government agents. IOW - there's no evidence that just being nice and respectable or keeping to ourselves humanizes us, reduces individual or systemic racism, or leads to any improvements in equality or access to opportunities. And so, when I see people disdain CRT without knowing a darn thing about the origins of the debate or the lived experience the black community has had when applying both approaches, I bristle. BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOT STUPID. The undercurrent of "just comply" or "just live right" or "focus on black on black crime" is that black people are too stupid to have considered that as an option. It has been considered. It has been tried. It's not enough to affect real change. Black history is American history. It's a shame that it's not taught that way.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

I sat down and watched 13th (referring to the 13th amendment) last night with my kids. It’s on Netflix. The movie talks about systemic racism within the legal system. I recommend it. 
 

Does anyone have a good movie/show to recommend about redlining, food deserts, school property tax dollars and other economic impacts that is teen appropriate? 
 

 

[Matryoshka]

23 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I sat down and watched 13th (referring to the 13th amendment) last night with my kids. It’s on Netflix. The movie talks about systemic racism within the legal system. I recommend it. 
 

Does anyone have a good movie/show to recommend about redlining, food deserts, school property tax dollars and other economic impacts that is teen appropriate? 

Not a movie, but if you can get them to read something, I'll recommend The Warmth of Other Suns again.  It answers a lot of questions of what happened after the Civil War, and why African-Americans couldn't get ahead even if they fled the Jim Crow South to the more 'enlightened' North.  Lots of systemic policies sprung up to 'deal' with the influx.  It was eye-opening. 

If anyone wants to do some reading, I think this book is a much better starting point than something like White Fragility.  If it had been out already when my kids were teens, it would have been required reading.  I have to say to my high school's credit, we had a whole semester of English class that was dedicated to Native American and African-American literature.  The books that have stayed with me from that time are Anne Moody's Coming of Age in Mississippi (memoir of Civil Rights activist in the 60's) - not sure if it would resonate with me as much now, but it knocked my socks off back then when this chapter of history was new to me, and Jubilee by Margaret Walker, which is a work of fiction about a woman who lives through the transition from slavery to emancipation.  We also read some of the seminal works by men, but for me it seems the ones focused on women's experiences resonated more with me.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Jaybee]

Not prairiewindmomma, but thank you. I had put White Fragility in my cart without realizing it was written by a white. I've exchanged it for The Warmth of Other Suns and may also get some others recommended on this thread. I only have my phone right now, and it's hard to research as well. My oldest ds lives (in the same community) and works with many people of different races; he has recommended some books in the past that I just hadn't ordered yet, so I need to do that as well.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Jaybee

[Pam in CT]

re "sitting back and watching" vs witnessing

34 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Haven't read all the posts. I might be repeating something. I was very saddened this week to see a former white male coworker post something (really a question but sounding a bit oblivious) on his facebook wall and get some of the negative stereotypical white responses. Well, I called out one of the responses for being at best insensitive (really, sounded pretty racist). Then a black woman (his friend, I don't know her) said he should have called out that comment. I agreed. It was his wall. But he said he was not going to bash anyone on his wall. It was an open forum. I suggested that his silence could be seen as acceptance and since it's his wall he has every right to speak up and I encouraged him to do so in similar situations. Told him not to take his voice for granted. But he basically said aloud (to someone else), "well, I guess we will get called out as part of the problem. I'm over this. I'm just going to watch."

YES, that's part of the problem!! Watching. Like those three cops. Just there. Not helping!!

So I just wish people would stop just watching someone spout hate. I will admit, I haven't directly called out my inlaws for their comments... eek. But I have told dh and the kids, "that's not cool. Don't say that" when his family jokingly refers to a Chinese meal in a racist way (deliberately mispronouncing it ugh). The first time I talked to ds about it privately he agreed immediately that it was rude and not funny. I am so glad I didn't have to sway him. However, I have a feeling his similar-aged cousins probably laugh and think it's normal/funny. 

According to 23 & Me I'm like 1% black so I don't refer to myself as black. I don't look black. I don't have the struggles of a black person. I don't even know how that is viewed today... I hear some people give people that are half black a hard time for counting themselves as black. It's amazing the different reactions to this topic. So I wonder sometimes how the mixed (half black specifically) community is feeling about all this. Like do they feel included or excluded or what. I'm part white and part Mexican so I feel like I've seen things from different angles my whole life, but still could always grow and learn. I'm contemplating getting the book "White Fragility." 

My faith tradition has long drawn a distinction  between being an "observer" vs serving as "witness."

As you might imagine, the experience of the Holocaust provided urgency, and moral clarity, and a large body of case studies underscoring the difference.  

Observing is what, as you point out, the other officers who watched for eight minutes as their colleague pressed the life out of George Floyd. Or what the line of officers who who kept on walking on after Martin Gugino was shoved to the ground.  Watching, like with popcorn.

Witnessing is taking careful note and re-telling what happened. Over and over and over, in different ways in different voices, as long as it takes.  There is no doubt in my mind that videos that are the all that's making a difference, why are these incidents of police brutality not like all the other incidents?  Witnessing, like Primo Levi and Elie Wiesel, like in Nuremberg, like in other courtroom contexts.

 

Sitting back and watching, with popcorn, so as to avoid being "called out"  (???!!)  amounts to ratification. As surely now as then.

[Matryoshka]

This just came across my Facebook feed, and since someone just asked about documentaries, I thought I'd share it.  I have not watched any of these, and this list seems to have been compiled in Australia, as about 1/3 are about the aboriginal people there and they all say they're free to view in Australia, but those are also illuminating stories, and the rest seem to be US-based.

https://www.docplay.com/articles/10-documentaries-to-watch-about-race-instead-of-asking-a-person-of-colour-to-explain-things-for-you/?fbclid=IwAR2uajg-DtBJrIx3DadwFVEbi9_nJV_lEnrUZnKab2h-Y1Pr8v5CqhiY_gA#.XtwfjxxwI4s.facebook

Not on that list but one I have seen is the documentary "13th".

[Stacia]

Quote

 

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

Witnessing is taking careful note and re-telling what happened. Over and over and over, in different ways in different voices, as long as it takes.  There is no doubt in my mind that videos that are the all that's making a difference, why are these incidents of police brutality not like all the other incidents?  Witnessing, like Primo Levi and Elie Wiesel, like in Nuremberg, like in other courtroom contexts.

I will point out that many ACLU branches offer legal observer training, for those who may be looking for volunteer opportunities.

“Legal observers act as visible witnesses at demonstrations, rallies and other free speech events, documenting any incidents of police misconduct or violations of constitutional rights,” said Antonio Serrano, organizer for the ACLU of Wyoming. “Legal observers are committed to defending free speech in a way that is as objective as possible so that their documentation can be used as evidence if police misconduct or obstructions to constitutionally protected free speech are challenged in court.”

You can google to find your local chapter.

 

[Stacia]

Re: mentions of documentaries. I recommend watching Emanuel (about the Charleston church killings that is coming up on five years next week). 

‘Emanuel’ documentary about Charleston church shooting now free to stream. (Looks like it will be free through June 16 -- next Tuesday.)

Quote

“Emanuel” focuses on the nine victims, family members left behind and the community’s response to the tragedy. It tells the story of the horrific night in Charleston through the eyes of surviving relatives, local officials, journalists and other community members. Conversations are had about the history of the city’s race relations, significance of the Mother Emanuel Church and the healing power of forgiveness that arises in the aftermath. 

This particular documentary's subject matter is especially important to me because Charleston holds a special place in my heart. My sister knew & had worked with Clementa Pinckney, the church's pastor (& a SC state senator) who was murdered that evening. I watched the documentary when it was out in the theaters & it focuses a lot on the victims & their families. 

 

 

ETA, @Pam in CT, the first part of this trailer speaks very much to your discussion of witnessing the events & retelling the story.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Stacia

[Carrie12345]

11 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

There is systematic racism entrenched in systems and cultures even if they are POCs and were themselves colonized and oppressed that they are unaware of. Two examples from growing up.

1. I had a cherished family doll called Golly which was handed down to me. It looked like this.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=golliwog

I never knew it was racist until I came here and why.

2. We used to sing songs called N-word spirituals in Church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_(music)

I did not know referencing it that way was wrong until I came here. 

I have grown up in a country with a history of colonization and with grandparents who grew up under them. They have stories of trauma and even songs and words that were painful to hear. But they were never able to identify or know what was racist. So I always spoke through my actions and words and corrected people's verbiage with what I knew and threw away the doll. It did cause some upset especially the doll because it was a family heirloom. But I would rather throw away a heirloom than pass it down to my daughter because what I teach her is more important than a doll her great grandmother played with. 

So many people, good, kind people do not know what is racist. So we must speak up is my view. 

“How to Be an Anti-Racist” talks about all versions of racism, including the author’s own experiences with “other” racism as a black man.  It did throw me off kilter at first (as a white woman) because I’ve always jumped on racists who used “reverse racism” as their defense. So talking about POC having racist thoughts was automatically on my no-no list.  But his message isn’t specifically about that (ridiculous) argument, but all types of racist behavior and ideas and the need to identify and overcome them. It’s been interesting.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I still have a few chapters to go so, please, no one come for me if I’ve oversimplified!

[Guest]

Had a private conversation with someone from high school yesterday. It’s interesting how this came up. He sought a private conversation with me. You see, he was arguing on the wall of another high school mate, who is black. I considered, but did not, posting to tell the white guy to close his mouth. I think it’s really bad form to tell a black person on their own wall what black Americans are experiencing/what it means, which is what he was doing. But I also thought it would be bad form for *me* to come in and correct him. So I only liked or loved a bunch of the black people who argued with him. Well I guess he looked to see who was “liking” those posts, and then he PM’d me. So, I guess that’s one good thing; he PM’d me instead of arguing with me on someone else’s wall. 

I just think there’s something interesting about the fact he sought me out. I’m not sure I can articulate it, but it gives me this feeling...like, he knows there is something he needs to know. Sometimes I think people go looking for an argument when they see cracks in their foundation. 

[Guest]

I’m just bumping this thread up so people who want to access the books and resources can find it again. 😊

[Stacia]

 

 

[Liz CA]

Have not read the entire thread; this author has perhaps been already mentioned.

Dr. Perkins has written several books. His message is not about pointing out the obvious but more of a "where do we go from here" and reconciliation, equality, etc.

His brother died during an incident with police, so he definitely has something to say about this.

[Stacia]

Fandango is currently streaming some movies for free to spotlight Black cinema.

"We believe movies can be a powerful tool for education and have worked with our studio partners to make these movies available to watch for free on FandangoNOW."

Edited June 12, 2020 by Stacia

[Matryoshka]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:18 AM, Carrie12345 said:

“How to Be an Anti-Racist” talks about all versions of racism, including the author’s own experiences with “other” racism as a black man.  It did throw me off kilter at first (as a white woman) because I’ve always jumped on racists who used “reverse racism” as their defense. So talking about POC having racist thoughts was automatically on my no-no list.  But his message isn’t specifically about that (ridiculous) argument, but all types of racist behavior and ideas and the need to identify and overcome them. It’s been interesting.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I still have a few chapters to go so, please, no one come for me if I’ve oversimplified!

I just finished the book, and he has a whole chapter on why POC can, in fact, have racist ideas - both against white people, against other black people (for their color or their lower economic status), or against other 'races'. I also had that thought on my no-no list, but it was an interesting and thoughtful chapter.  This comes back to how he defines 'racism' - his careful, detailed explanation of racism, racist ideas, and racist policies and which comes first in a chicken/egg kind of way are I think the best part of the book.  We all need definitions, and he I think successfully argues that the way the definition has been blurred and co-opted so that it's a 'slur' and therefore shouldn't be used is just a way to shut down conversation and not deal with the issue.  He says we shouldn't think of people themselves as being racist, but as people having racist ideas- it's the racist ideas we have to challenge.  The whole book was interesting and thoughtful.  He also covers, as you say, a lot of kinds of 'intersectional' racism.  Highly recommend (though I'd also say to anyone who's done very little reading of African-American history and experience so far that you'll get even more out of a book like this after you've covered some of that first).  The audio, which he reads himself, is great.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Guest]

One area where I’m uncertain is whether or not I should challenge someone’s meme on FB on their own wall. I have chosen both ways; sometimes I challenge what was said and sometimes I scroll on by or snooze the person. I don’t know which choice is more appropriate, or if it depends on who is saying it. I’m definitely much more likely to just scroll or to snooze/unfollow someone whose response will be ferocious. 

On the one hand, I love to share information and always naively think that others are just lacking information and once they have the info they are missing, they will understand. But sometimes I think it’s just me being a know-it-all and my information is falling on closed ears. So I’m not sure about that. 

[Rosie_0801]

On 6/11/2020 at 9:04 PM, Quill said:

Had a private conversation with someone from high school yesterday. It’s interesting how this came up. He sought a private conversation with me. You see, he was arguing on the wall of another high school mate, who is black. I considered, but did not, posting to tell the white guy to close his mouth. I think it’s really bad form to tell a black person on their own wall what black Americans are experiencing/what it means, which is what he was doing. But I also thought it would be bad form for *me* to come in and correct him. So I only liked or loved a bunch of the black people who argued with him. Well I guess he looked to see who was “liking” those posts, and then he PM’d me. So, I guess that’s one good thing; he PM’d me instead of arguing with me on someone else’s wall. 

I just think there’s something interesting about the fact he sought me out. I’m not sure I can articulate it, but it gives me this feeling...like, he knows there is something he needs to know. Sometimes I think people go looking for an argument when they see cracks in their foundation. 

 

Sometimes people need to hear stuff from a "safe" person before they'll be ready to hear the same thing from the "scary other."

[Carrie12345]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

One area where I’m uncertain is whether or not I should challenge someone’s meme on FB on their own wall. I have chosen both ways; sometimes I challenge what was said and sometimes I scroll on by or snooze the person. I don’t know which choice is more appropriate, or if it depends on who is saying it. I’m definitely much more likely to just scroll or to snooze/unfollow someone whose response will be ferocious. 

On the one hand, I love to share information and always naively think that others are just lacking information and once they have the info they are missing, they will understand. But sometimes I think it’s just me being a know-it-all and my information is falling on closed ears. So I’m not sure about that. 

For me, it does sometimes depend on who’s posting, and even the content in relation to the person .

Most recently, a friend posted about a specific incident during the few days of constant riot coverage. The incident involved something very personal to both our families. His post was along the lines of “If you can justify this, get off my friends list.” So I responded “okay” and unfriended!

1. He clearly was not open to discussion.
2. He is a big part of my life, so I’ll always be available to have that discussion when he’s able to.

I also keep in mind that friends see my posts so, even if I skip engaging some things, they do know where I stand.

[Stacia]

25 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

a friend posted about a specific incident during the few days of constant riot coverage.

There have been some riots and many more instances of protests (largely peaceful).

If it was days of only riot coverage that's inaccurate coverage in the media. And it also shows the power of individual words like "riot" and "protest". Even supposedly simple word choices like that can contribute to "othering", skewing the conversation before it even starts, or shutting down the conversation altogether, imo.

Please know I am just using the post to point out how even one word choice can have an impact. I say it because I have tried to be much more aware of my own choices.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Stacia

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, Stacia said:

There have been some riots and many more instances of protests (largely peaceful).

If it was days of only riot coverage that's inaccurate coverage in the media. And it also shows the power of individual words like "riot" and "protest". Even supposedly simple word choices like that can contribute to "othering", skewing the conversation before it even starts, or shutting down the conversation altogether, imo.

I am aware. The incident was indeed specific to riot conditions, my choice of word. And I find the incident and surrounding scenario justified, his choice of word.

[Stacia]

I did add to my previous post that I was pointing it out in a general sense and how I have tried to be aware of my own choices.

[Stacia]

 

 

[Stacia]

 

 

[Stacia]

https://www.eddiemoorejr.com/21daychallenge

Quote

21-Day Racial Equity Habit Building Challenge ©

...

About the 21-Day Racial Equity Habit Building Challenge 

• For 21 days, do one action to further your understanding of power, privilege, supremacy, oppression, and equity 

• Plan includes suggestions for readings, podcasts, videos, observations, and ways to form and deepen community connections. Suggestions are in the following categories:

• Read

• Listen

• Watch

• Notice

• Connect

• Engage

• Act

• Reflect

• Stay Inspired

• Use the tracking chart provided below to stay on course. You can drag the image to your desktop and print, or you can access a digital version here and copy it for editing.

• We think understanding white privilege and white supremacy is a powerful lens into the complexities of doing social justice work, so we’ve focused our resources on that specific issue.

• Adaptable to all forms of social justice

• Can be done individually, with friends and family, or organization-wide.

...

 

[Stacia]

 

 

[Stacia]

A conversation worth having...