Is two years foreign language enough?

[fourisenough]

My DD15 has taken and done well with Latin 1 & 2 via WHA. She earned A’s and Cum Laude on NLE and Silver Medals on NLVE & NLEE. But it’s not her thing. She would prefer to be done now. I am wondering how much it would hurt her for selective/highly selective college admissions purposes to only complete 2 years vs. 3-4 years of foreign language?

A bit more info about her: she has/will have taken APs in English Lang, English Lit, Art History, Psychology, Stats, and likely Calc, Bio or Chem, US or Euro history by the end of 12th grade. She’s a 95+ percentile tester who doesn’t really know what she wants to study or where she wants to attend college. She’s a crazy hard worker and is drawn to the liberal arts, but excels in math/science also. She’s in a pre-professional ballet residential program with a top-tier company school, which I think will serve as an interesting hook. She thinks she would like to maybe dance professionally, but only with a top company. Since the chances of that are nearly nil, I’m planning on a direct to college path for her.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. I’ve googled and gotten many uninformed opinions on the matter, so I thought I’d turn to the real experts.

[SanDiegoMom]

The highly selective colleges my dd applied to showed 3 years of a foreign language, with some asking for four years.  Two wouldn't have looked great, tbh.  

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would look into likely universities and see what they expect.  My dd only had two years of French, but in Texas that is all that is required, plus her school is not super-selective.  She's very happy there, though.

[gstharr]

4 years seem to be the norm for highly selective school.  A long time ago I got in with only three years because my h.s did not offer a 4th.  But I had to satisfy the graduation requirement with another year of the language, and a year of of reading.  Those that came in with 4 years just had to complete the reading requirement.  

[lmrich]

I would encourage her to take another year. 

[Momto6inIN]

Selective colleges will be looking for 3-4 years. Perhaps is she's tired of Latin you could choose a different language for the next 2 years?

[8filltheheart]

Even some of the state schools now require a minimum of 3 and if they admit the student with 2, it is with the condition of completing the requirement as an UG.  I require my kids to take at least 3.

[klmama]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Even some of the state schools now require a minimum of 3 and if they admit the student with 2, it is with the condition of completing the requirement as an UG.  I require my kids to take at least 3.

And some, even with 3 years, require students to take a placement test to determine actual skill level.  

[Clemsondana]

To tag along with this question - what if your kid did a couple of years of high school language in middle school?  With other subjects it hadn't crossed my mind to worry about middle school classes - we'll take 4 years of math in high school even if we do algebra in middle school.  But, my older took middle school Latin at co-op and then wound up doing high school Latin 1 in 7th and Latin 2 in 8th.  Our teacher normally only does through Latin 3, which we'll do this year as a 9th grader.  But, he has said that he's happy to assign translations for however many years kiddo is interested in taking Latin.  Do we need to do through what, on our transcript, would be Latin 5 or 6, to get 3-4 years of high school language or is moving through Latin 4 sufficient?  I don't know if this kid will choose to apply to highly competitive schools, but the potential is there and in 4 years I don't want to have a senior saying that, with all that they've done, they would have gotten in if only Mom hadn't mucked up the Latin requirements.  🙂  

[8filltheheart]

7 minutes ago, ClemsonDana said:

To tag along with this question - what if your kid did a couple of years of high school language in middle school?  With other subjects it hadn't crossed my mind to worry about middle school classes - we'll take 4 years of math in high school even if we do algebra in middle school.  But, my older took middle school Latin at co-op and then wound up doing high school Latin 1 in 7th and Latin 2 in 8th.  Our teacher normally only does through Latin 3, which we'll do this year as a 9th grader.  But, he has said that he's happy to assign translations for however many years kiddo is interested in taking Latin.  Do we need to do through what, on our transcript, would be Latin 5 or 6, to get 3-4 years of high school language or is moving through Latin 4 sufficient?  I don't know if this kid will choose to apply to highly competitive schools, but the potential is there and in 4 years I don't want to have a senior saying that, with all that they've done, they would have gotten in if only Mom hadn't mucked up the Latin requirements.  🙂  

Many states allow students to carry up to 2 yrs of foreign language from middle school, so that would not be seen as unusual.  The typical sequence requirement for FL says something like "4 yrs of the same language," so level 3 and 4 in 9th and 10th grade would satisify that requirement for the majority of schools.  Many schools don't offer any FL beyond AP, so students entering with 2 yrs of FL in that scenario wouldn't really have any other open options. 

[Bocky]

She already has 2 strong years of outsourced high school Latin with external exam validation. Would she consider a simpler class for a third year of Latin to meet the requirement? I don't think every single high school credit needs to be equivalently hard - some credits are mostly "show up and participate" (of course this would not be a good idea if she wanted to be a Latin major!) A class could be simply reading through a Latin work 4 hours a week with a tutor (36 weeks x 1 hour = 144 hours, 1 credit). They could read an historical work - Tacitus Agricola or one of Suetonius' Lives for example, or a book from the Latin Vulgate - eg Acts, or they could work through something like DA Russell, An anthology of Latin Prose.

If the thought of more Latin is too much, then dual enrolment could a quicker way to get 3 years of the same (not Latin) language. Typically 1 semester of college equals a high school credit, so 2 semesters plus summer. Spanish or French would piggyback on her knowledge of Latin nicely.

[fourisenough]

1 hour ago, Bocky said:

She already has 2 strong years of outsourced high school Latin with external exam validation. Would she consider a simpler class for a third year of Latin to meet the requirement? I don't think every single high school credit needs to be equivalently hard - some credits are mostly "show up and participate" (of course this would not be a good idea if she wanted to be a Latin major!) A class could be simply reading through a Latin work 4 hours a week with a tutor (36 weeks x 1 hour = 144 hours, 1 credit). They could read an historical work - Tacitus Agricola or one of Suetonius' Lives for example, or a book from the Latin Vulgate - eg Acts, or they could work through something like DA Russell, An anthology of Latin Prose.

If the thought of more Latin is too much, then dual enrolment could a quicker way to get 3 years of the same (not Latin) language. Typically 1 semester of college equals a high school credit, so 2 semesters plus summer. Spanish or French would piggyback on her knowledge of Latin nicely.

Those are interesting ideas.
 

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. It seems it is important to continue on with her Latin study. I’ve dug in a bit deeper with her on her reticence toward it; turns out she really disliked the teacher (and she pretty much likes everyone). He was unresponsive to emails, took a while to grade things, and the teaching was just overall uninspiring. She also feels like she hasn’t learned much. There were no comprehensive mid-term nor final exams, so while a language should be cumulative, she feels like she would study hard for tests, then brain-dump everything she ‘knew’. Given her performance on the NLE, NLEE, and the NLVE, she must know more than she realizes, but clearly her confidence is a problem. We’re looking at other vendors. Any thoughts on Anne Van Fossen at CLRC? I think I remember that people here have raved about her.

[cintinative]

@fourisenough  I just looked and it seems that WHA uses Latin Alive? Is that correct?  Did she have any grammar level Latin before? This curriculum is intense.  My oldest and I just did two years of LA at home. Based on our experience, I wonder if part of the problem is how the curriculum is run.  My oldest who completed Latin 2 did very well on the NLE but his year of Latin sucked the life out of him. Since there was no real teacher (I was more of a facilitator), I wonder if the pacing has something to do with it. I know that @ScoutTN put her daughter in CLRC Latin after a rough stint with Latin Alive (at home, I think?) and her daughter is enjoying it SO much more.  I am honestly not sure of the differences in scope and sequence between the two programs (CLRC uses Oxford).  

I am just wondering aloud if a difference in curriculum coupled with a difference in teacher would allow her third year of Latin to be much more enjoyable. 

As for my son, he would have burned the book when we were done if I had let him. LOL.  So we are moving on to Spanish. My youngest has only done one year of high school Latin so I suppose he will do three years of high school Spanish. I will only ask two years of my oldest.  I *hope* it will go smoothly since they have the foundation of Latin. 

 

[katilac]

3-4 years for sure 

4 hours ago, ClemsonDana said:

To tag along with this question - what if your kid did a couple of years of high school language in middle school?  

They want to see it in high school, ime. Even many less selective schools. He can continue with Latin or he can add a different language. My kids had Latin 3 and 4 respectively, but also four years of French. The Latin will give him a leg up on Romance languages for sure - Italian is the closest to Latin, and starting at the beginning of a new language will quite possibly be much easier than continuing with Latin. Tons of majors have foreign language in the degree requirements, and most schools let you begin at the beginning even if you already studied it in high school (so an easy course). When you get to more selective schools, they are more likely to require you to either start at a higher level or pick another language.

A quick note about carrying up credits from middle school: this is not unusual for languages, but most highly selective schools want to see that you took the most challenging courses available to you. So a student who took French 1 & 2, and whose high school does not go past French 4, will be looked at through a different lens than a student who could have gone further but chose not to. Or a student who could have moved to a second language but chose not to.  

Actual conversation at a college road show, paraphrased: 

Student: If I only take one of them, is it better to take AP X or AP Y? 

Rep: It's better to take both of them. 

Student: But if I can't . . . 

Rep: Is it possible to fit in your schedule? Then you need to take both. 

Student: But it's going to be really hard to take both, would one look better than . . . 

Rep: We expect students to take the most challenging courses available to them. Neither one will look better. Not taking both will look bad.  

So, at least he was honest, lol. 

 

[ScoutTN]

3 hours ago, fourisenough said:

Those are interesting ideas.
 

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. It seems it is important to continue on with her Latin study. I’ve dug in a bit deeper with her on her reticence toward it; turns out she really disliked the teacher (and she pretty much likes everyone). He was unresponsive to emails, took a while to grade things, and the teaching was just overall uninspiring. She also feels like she hasn’t learned much. There were no comprehensive mid-term nor final exams, so while a language should be cumulative, she feels like she would study hard for tests, then brain-dump everything she ‘knew’. Given her performance on the NLE, NLEE, and the NLVE, she must know more than she realizes, but clearly her confidence is a problem. We’re looking at other vendors. Any thoughts on Anne Van Fossen at CLRC? I think I remember that people here have raved about her.

Anne Van Fossen at CLRC is excellent! And imo the Oxford course is better than LA. I'd contact Anne and have a conversation, if you are at all considering her program. 

[RootAnn]

 Anne VanFossen is a true gem. Not all Latin at CLRC is with her, so keep that in mind if there is a different Latin teacher. 

My dd#2 is not going for any sort of selective school. (Her transcript will have three years of foreign language but they are labeled 1A, 1B, & 2. So, two years of material in 3 years. Her college isn't going to care. They don't even offer foreign language classes!)

[Reefgazer]

I think 2 years is OK for most colleges, but highly selective ones expect 3 or 4.

[J-rap]

Two is fine for many.  Can you look at what colleges (the types she might be interested in) are requiring?  I required my kids to take 3 years to keep their options open.  I wonder, too, if she could pass out of a year, or take a shortened version of year 3.  For example, my ds took three years of Spanish, but during his 3rd year, it felt like so much repeat, that he got permission to move up to year 4.   (It seems like a lot of the first semester of the next level is going over things from previous levels.)  Or, here's another thought.  Summer school classes are usually in 6 weeks or so.  Your dd sounds very bright.  Could she get a level 3 course to do at home and plan to finish it in 6 weeks?  She could skip over the parts that she already knows or test out of them, and just focus on the new material.  Anyway, I don't know how you'd handle that as far as hours.  We were never as concerned about hours as knowledge learned.  

Our of curiosity, I just looked up our state's University which is very reputable and not nearly as easy to get into as it used to be, and they only require two years.

[teachermom2834]

When I was planning high school I really wanted to make sure to not close any doors so I was planning on 3-4 years FL. As time went on and my kids really did not enjoy FL, I backed up to the two years with the idea that ground could be recovered quickly through dual enrollment if necessary. We have a local university that is very accessible for de and they offer "fast track" FL courses. It is possible to take four Spanish classes over the course of one summer, for example. My rising senior took Intro Spanish 1 fall of junior year, just completed Intro Spanish 2 in a two week summer session, and will take Intermediate Spanish 1 and 2 fall and spring of senior year. So he will have four credits relatively painlessly. This university also offers an option to take Intro Spanish 1 and 2 in fall and then Intermediate Spanish 1 and 2 in the spring getting four credits in one year. Not suggesting that-just pointing out there are options.

Because we have a great de option here, I was able to release some of the worries about "what if" my dc decided to apply someplace that wanted something more than we would have done otherwise. I knew we could add a credit through de or do something intensive at home to make it up. 

(BTW my ds is not taking all that Spanish because his intended college requires it for admission but because it will be a college graduation requirement for him and our de school has proven to be easier than any other school my dc have attended. He has a teacher there he likes so he is getting it out of the way and transferring it in.)

[EKS]

My older son had just two years of Latin.  He applied to engineering focused schools and got into 4/5 of them, including his top choice.  So it can be done.

That said, there are a lot of schools that want to see 3-4 years, and there are a lot of others that don't mind 2 years, but will make the student take a third term of the language in order to graduate.  The wildcard with that is where they will place, since most colleges require a language placement test.

So, as seems to be the case so often, it depends on the school.