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The CDC and singing in church


MercyA
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3 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I'm confused about what you're confused about 😄   Is this the portion you are referring to? :

I didn't think the article was saying that people attended the practices being sick (or thinking they were sick with something).  I remember that one article I read a while ago stated that no one coughed or seemed sick at the choir practice.   The CT article is the first one I've read that references 2 different practices, so I don't know what's up with that. 

 

"An investigation by the US Center for Disease Control and Prevention, however, established that Skagit Valley choir members were sitting six to ten inches from one another, and sharing snacks and stacking chairs together, and that 19 members with “probable symptoms” were never tested."

This is the part I meant. It makes it sound like the probable symptoms occurred at the time of the practice (since all the other listed events did). That's why I was confused.

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5 minutes ago, cintinative said:

"An investigation by the US Center for Disease Control and Prevention, however, established that Skagit Valley choir members were sitting six to ten inches from one another, and sharing snacks and stacking chairs together, and that 19 members with “probable symptoms” were never tested."

This is the part I meant. It makes it sound like the probable symptoms occurred at the time of the practice (since all the other listed events did). That's why I was confused.

I think it is poorly written and you're right and can be misunderstood.  The way I understood it is that at the practice the choir was not practicing any kind of distancing and they were doing other activities other than singing, such as sharing food (mostly likely from a common table as I have experienced in choir practices) and stacking chairs- which requires some lifting, etc.   Then later 19 members were considered part of some of the research as probably having covid -but were never actually tested.  

Of course,, you could be right too 🙂  But I do remember other articles stating that no one at practice appeared sick or coughed.  

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7 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Welp. Our church has been singing communally for five weeks now, no cases in the body and no known asymptomatic spread among the members who are being tested regularly through work.

This was my first week back, though the kids other than Benjamin have been going for a month. It was so nice to be back and feel mostly normal. Seating was still distanced, doors propped open, bathrooms being monitored and cleaned throughout.

This is really great!  All with masks or scattered mask wearing?

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47 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Welp. Our church has been singing communally for five weeks now, no cases in the body and no known asymptomatic spread among the members who are being tested regularly through work.

This was my first week back, though the kids other than Benjamin have been going for a month. It was so nice to be back and feel mostly normal. Seating was still distanced, doors propped open, bathrooms being monitored and cleaned throughout.

Yay! That's great news - we are not yet back to in person services. Some churches have started, at 25% capacity, I think. So far so good but it's only the 2nd week. Our church has probably an average age close to 70, so I think we'll be staying virtual longer than most if I were to guess due to the fact that probably 80% of people there are senior citizens. 

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46 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Welp. Our church has been singing communally for five weeks now, no cases in the body and no known asymptomatic spread among the members who are being tested regularly through work.

This was my first week back, though the kids other than Benjamin have been going for a month. It was so nice to be back and feel mostly normal. Seating was still distanced, doors propped open, bathrooms being monitored and cleaned throughout.

That is encouraging.  My sister's parish had their first services today.  She's in the midwest.   We're still in prep mode.    People are getting frustrated here in my county.  I heard there was a demonstration at a recent County Council meeting with our County executive.  This was before all the demonstrations too. 

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First service back today.  Congregational singing happened - I was out-voted 🙂.  It was nice to be back but the six-foot distancing was being very loosely interpreted by some!  I saw my mil trying to politely back away from several people. 

Someone not from our family, unmasked and really in precarious health,  decided to sit right behind (no pew in-between) my row of teens.  I tried to direct her elsewhere but she declared that she wasn't afraid because she had Jesus.  That's a great sentiment but I told her that I did not want her to pick it up from my teens who are working and out and about.  She argued but someone else stepped in and got her off by herself.  I'm more concerned about us being the carriers since my 18yods is now working in an Amazon warehouse and my basketball players are beginning to get with friends for summer training.

It was nice to be back but awkward, too.  Lots of mask-wearing which surprised me.  I let our kids take theirs off before the sermon because we were in the front row then the pastor started speaking but forgot his microphone and started really loud preaching instead of getting the mic!  I was trying to figure out how to put mine back on without being obvious. 

 

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2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Another problem with the keep your mask on while receiving the Body of Christ in the hand is the very increased likelihood of dropping the Body of Christ on the ground while trying to remove a mask, not to mention the increased likelihood of someone with evil intentions of taking it with them instead of consuming it when no one is watching.  Also, when kneeling to receive on the tongue you are still and even if you don’t hold your breath you are no where even close to his face.

I mean, you pick it up with one hand to put in your mouth, mask or no mask. In this case the other hand, not holding it, is used to remove the mask. I think the risk is greater in walking a few feet and dropping, than the taking the mask off part, actually. (I know some just lift both hands to the mouth to partake, but that always seemed risky to me as far as dropping it down my cleavage or something!)

I think the kneeling thing is a good point! The episcopal church has the people kneel at the altar rail, like in the older Catholic Rites, but most receive in the hand. That might be the safest compromise. People spaced at the rail 6 feet apart, keep mask on as masked priest places the host in your hand, when he walks off and is 6 feet away you remove mask with one hand, consume host, replace mask, get up and walk away. 

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

I think it is poorly written and you're right and can be misunderstood.  The way I understood it is that at the practice the choir was not practicing any kind of distancing and they were doing other activities other than singing, such as sharing food (mostly likely from a common table as I have experienced in choir practices) and stacking chairs- which requires some lifting, etc.   Then later 19 members were considered part of some of the research as probably having covid -but were never actually tested.  

Of course,, you could be right too 🙂  But I do remember other articles stating that no one at practice appeared sick or coughed.  

Also, even if they are all 10 inches apart, the idea was ONE of them was the spreader. He was not 10 inches away from all 45 people he infected, right? I mean, that isn't possible. Some of those people were quite far away. 

And the eating thing is still annoying me...."they" say that consuming food with the virus on it is safe. But that sharing food is not safe. Which again, makes very little sense. (and I posted in the other thread that some scientists have shown that it can infect/replicate in the intestinal cells, that many mild cases have ONLY GI symptoms, no respiratory symptoms and a lot more START with GI, then go to respiratory. And MERS can spread via consuming the virus, via the digestive tract. So....I think they REALLY need to look again to see if you can get this by consuming food with the virus on it.)

Also, we have reports of people in restaurants, etc that are farther apart than the 18 inches that german study mentions, who catch it from each other. 

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3 minutes ago, JanOH said:

First service back today.  Congregational singing happened - I was out-voted 🙂.  It was nice to be back but the six-foot distancing was being very loosely interpreted by some!  I saw my mil trying to politely back away from several people. 

Someone not from our family, unmasked and really in precarious health,  decided to sit right behind (no pew in-between) my row of teens.  I tried to direct her elsewhere but she declared that she wasn't afraid because she had Jesus.  That's a great sentiment but I told her that I did not want her to pick it up from my teens who are working and out and about.  She argued but someone else stepped in and got her off by herself.  I'm more concerned about us being the carriers since my 18yods is now working in an Amazon warehouse and my basketball players are beginning to get with friends for summer training.

It was nice to be back but awkward, too.  Lots of mask-wearing which surprised me.  I let our kids take theirs off before the sermon because we were in the front row then the pastor started speaking but forgot his microphone and started really loud preaching instead of getting the mic!  I was trying to figure out how to put mine back on without being obvious. 

 

Ugh. Do people like this not wear seatbelts, because they have Jesus? Or not look both ways before crossing the street, because they have Jesus? Or keep a fire extinguisher in the house, because they have Jesus? 

Moving back one row is NOT anymore difficult than looking both ways before you cross the street. I do NOT understand this logic! And i hear it a lot!

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6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I mean, you pick it up with one hand to put in your mouth, mask or no mask. In this case the other hand, not holding it, is used to remove the mask. I think the risk is greater in walking a few feet and dropping, than the taking the mask off part, actually. (I know some just lift both hands to the mouth to partake, but that always seemed risky to me as far as dropping it down my cleavage or something!)

I think the kneeling thing is a good point! The episcopal church has the people kneel at the altar rail, like in the older Catholic Rites, but most receive in the hand. That might be the safest compromise. People spaced at the rail 6 feet apart, keep mask on as masked priest places the host in your hand, when he walks off and is 6 feet away you remove mask with one hand, consume host, replace mask, get up and walk away. 

Also, even if they are all 10 inches apart, the idea was ONE of them was the spreader. He was not 10 inches away from all 45 people he infected, right? I mean, that isn't possible. Some of those people were quite far away. 

And the eating thing is still annoying me...."they" say that consuming food with the virus on it is safe. But that sharing food is not safe. Which again, makes very little sense. (and I posted in the other thread that some scientists have shown that it can infect/replicate in the intestinal cells, that many mild cases have ONLY GI symptoms, no respiratory symptoms and a lot more START with GI, then go to respiratory. And MERS can spread via consuming the virus, via the digestive tract. So....I think they REALLY need to look again to see if you can get this by consuming food with the virus on it.)

Also, we have reports of people in restaurants, etc that are farther apart than the 18 inches that german study mentions, who catch it from each other. 

Don’t you think it would be way more widespread if you could catch it from food? I don’t know how it is where you are, but our drive thrus have stayed crazy busy throughout all of this and most local restaurants have done a lot of take out as well. I mentioned in another thread that a worker at my local Chick fil A tested positive but there was no spread that seemed to happen. And this Chick fil A is just as busy as any other. I just feel like with the amount of people that have continued to eat out we would be seeing much higher cases if food was a culprit.

That said, I don’t want to be near anyone singing in an enclosed space. So no church for us for a while yet. Ds did attend a protest last week and I’m keeping my fingers crossed nothing comes of it as most were masked.

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29 minutes ago, JanOH said:

First service back today.  Congregational singing happened - I was out-voted 🙂.  It was nice to be back but the six-foot distancing was being very loosely interpreted by some!  I saw my mil trying to politely back away from several people. 

Thanks for sharing! Today was supposed to be our first day back, but last night my 22-year-old daughter messaged me as we were finishing setting up out at church, and said she had a fever of 102! Well, our family members were 3 of the 5 people running the service..... We cancelled and will try again next week. It was quite a stunning blow after weeks of preparation and meetings, but we did know we needed to stay home! Times have changed for sure.

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28 minutes ago, Joker said:

Don’t you think it would be way more widespread if you could catch it from food? I don’t know how it is where you are, but our drive thrus have stayed crazy busy throughout all of this and most local restaurants have done a lot of take out as well. I mentioned in another thread that a worker at my local Chick fil A tested positive but there was no spread that seemed to happen. And this Chick fil A is just as busy as any other. I just feel like with the amount of people that have continued to eat out we would be seeing much higher cases if food was a culprit.

That said, I don’t want to be near anyone singing in an enclosed space. So no church for us for a while yet. Ds did attend a protest last week and I’m keeping my fingers crossed nothing comes of it as most were masked.

From what I'm reading, the cases that are just GI symptoms or start that way tend to be more mild, and because the symptoms are GI and not respiratory, those people end up not getting tested. So, good news is that if you get it from food you likely don't get that sick, but can still spread it. 

And at least in my state, we have a whole lot of cases where no one knows where they got it from. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Ugh. Do people like this not wear seatbelts, because they have Jesus? Or not look both ways before crossing the street, because they have Jesus? Or keep a fire extinguisher in the house, because they have Jesus? 

 

The other day our pastor referred to "people who think it is a sin to wear a mask" and "people who think it is not loving to your neighbor not to wear one."  He didn't elaborate on the first statement (it was a video) and I didn't ask. I sort of wonder if that idea is coming from the "Jesus will protect me" philosophy. However, people don't go trying to have car accidents or running into fires because "Jesus will protect me." So I am really confused about where this idea comes from.  Why *would* someone consider it a sin to wear a mask? I guess that's another thread. 

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17 minutes ago, cintinative said:

The other day our pastor referred to "people who think it is a sin to wear a mask" and "people who think it is not loving to your neighbor not to wear one."  He didn't elaborate on the first statement (it was a video) and I didn't ask. I sort of wonder if that idea is coming from the "Jesus will protect me" philosophy. However, people don't go trying to have car accidents or running into fires because "Jesus will protect me." So I am really confused about where this idea comes from.  Why *would* someone consider it a sin to wear a mask? I guess that's another thread. 

They get Jesus and politics messed up, maybe? 

You'd think masks were invented for COVID--surgeons wear masks, dentists wear masks, etc. all in "normal" non-pandemic times, and I don't think they would call that a sin. 

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Today our church met outside for the first time.  We didn't attend for several reasons.  It definitely made watching the live video harder it was very windy and their is traffic noise.  Every one wore a mask, family groups sat well spaces in chairs they brought with them.  Communion was in those individual serving things they had stations setup and 1 person from each family retrieved them than the congregation took it at the same time.  They did sing two songs with masks on plus the doxology. The whole service was only an hour long. 

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I haven't read all of the results, but I can tell you what we're doing at my Catholic Church in So. Cal, since I'm a singer and Youth Choir Director....No choir until further notice, likely Jan. 2021 at the earliest. We are discussing the possibility of having a single singer with a piano, but not singing anything too familiar so the congregation won't sing. Also no song books in the pews so the people won't be tempted to sing. It's sad but I agree that being cautious is important. My church has not opened yet. We've been closed since March, 16. Hoping to open by the end of June...lots of procedures to figure out. It's been crazy...

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4 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

There are absolutely people who believe that if you're a "good" person, and you pray, and you believe in Jesus, bad things won't happen to you.  I've been told that seeking medical care for my sick child is evidence that I don't have enough faith, or that now my kid is in a "Christian" family, and has people praying for him, he'll surely recover.  

I honestly wonder how people like that make it to adulthood.  Like, are they just so lucky that nothing bad has happened to them or anyone they're close to?  Do they do weird mental gymnastics?  How do you live with that kind of thought process?

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1 hour ago, Happymomof1 said:

Well, the masks were not as prevalent in the early service as they have been.  I even saw hugs. I heard several older members say, if the protestors can do that and not wear masks and no one says anything, then there is no reason for me to wear them here.  UGGHH..  I know that no one wants to offend the protestors, but that is the message my community got. 

Okaaaay, but they get that their own community is the one they'll likely be hurting the most, right? Virus gonna do what virus gonna do, it doesn't care if you're at a protest or in church. 

Edited by katilac
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1 minute ago, Seasider too said:

The people I know who are somewhat like this are also the ones who mostly manage to escape significant consequences for their poor decisions. I don’t wish bad things to happen to them by any stretch of the imagination, yet I confess I can’t help think that’s the only way some will learn to be more careful and compassionate. 

This is what my family calls having more luck than sense. 

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33 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

There are absolutely people who believe that if you're a "good" person, and you pray, and you believe in Jesus, bad things won't happen to you.  I've been told that seeking medical care for my sick child is evidence that I don't have enough faith, or that now my kid is in a "Christian" family, and has people praying for him, he'll surely recover.  

I do wonder what they think of the Christian martyrs then...those that had so much faith they died for their faith..I mean...being killed is a "bad thing" that happened to them, but they had faith, so?

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37 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I honestly wonder how people like that make it to adulthood.  Like, are they just so lucky that nothing bad has happened to them or anyone they're close to?  Do they do weird mental gymnastics?  How do you live with that kind of thought process?

 

i would think the first major personal loss (health, death, etc. ) would be viewed as somehow God's judgment.  I often wondered if my MIL felt like that. Up until the very end she said she had faith that God would heal my FIL (he had Lewy Bodies Dementia, and we knew that medically this meant death).  I wondered if when he died, she felt like it was because she didn't "believe" enough that he would be healed. That would be an awful burden to carry in addition to your grief. 

Edited by cintinative
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16 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

It's also possible that bad things happen to them, and they hide it.  Like the emperor's new clothes.  I mean if you believe that bad things don't happen to good people, and then something bad happens to you you could conclude that you were wrong, but you could also conclude that you weren't so good after all.  

 

True.  If the last few years have taught me anything, it's that a person's capacity for self delusion is almost unlimited.  

Edited by Terabith
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My mom had people tell her that my sister died (of hypoplastic left heart) because of some sin my mom had committed. SO unBiblical. SO wrong. But I think it displays the reverse of the "if you have enough faith, X will not happen" statement, which for them was, "If X bad thing happens, you must have done something to deserve it."  Let me be clear--that is not in Scripture. 

John 16:33 (ESV, Jesus speaking, emphasis added):  "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

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6 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I have had people see my kid, with all sorts of attached medical apparatus and ask me if I had an amnio, or if I breastfed him.  Of course I didn't, since he was almost 9 when I adopted him (pretty sure amnio doesn't work that way).  I have no idea if an amnio was performed, but there's not that would have shown up if it was.  He was breastfed until after 2, just not by me.  

 

I'm so sorry. That's truly awful. I don't see how any such question could ever be helpful.  

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52 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

It's also possible that bad things happen to them, and they hide it.  Like the emperor's new clothes.  I mean if you believe that bad things don't happen to good people, and then something bad happens to you you could conclude that you were wrong, but you could also conclude that you weren't so good after all.  

 

When I was a teen, the church we went to was a Word of Faith church. When I was sixteen, one of the girls I grew up with at that church was diagnosed with cancer. The parents were advised not to seek “the world’s treatments,” but to believe God for a miraculous healing. Well...I probably don’t need to tell you what happened. The girl died. And her parents left the church. 

I don’t know what ever became of them, but that had a huge impact on me. I was already at a crucial juncture, in which I was beginning to doubt the antics going on at that church.

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13 minutes ago, Violet Crown said:

Time for the Gregorian Chant!

That couldn’t be allowed... the congregation might realize they like chant much better than the typical Marty Haugen type fare served up at many Catholic parishes.  I know I did 😉.  I grew up Baptist and still know the hymnal backwards, forwards, and upside down, converted to Catholicism (despite the absolutely awful tunes passed off as music-no wonder Catholics have a reputation for not singing) and then discovered the Traditional Mass and never went back.  Not just because of the music, but on every level I could finally appreciate the words of the saints when speaking of the beauty of the Mass.  Chant is beautiful and easy to sing.  Our organist/choir director is from Syria originally and when he chants it really sounds like I imagine the ancient church to sound like.

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1 minute ago, Mom2mthj said:

That couldn’t be allowed... the congregation might realize they like chant much better than the typical Marty Haugen type fare served up at many Catholic parishes.  I know I did 😉.  I grew up Baptist and still know the hymnal backwards, forwards, and upside down, converted to Catholicism (despite the absolutely awful tunes passed off as music-no wonder Catholics have a reputation for not singing) and then discovered the Traditional Mass and never went back.  Not just because of the music, but on every level I could finally appreciate the words of the saints when speaking of the beauty of the Mass.  Chant is beautiful and easy to sing.  Our organist/choir director is from Syria originally and when he chants it really sounds like I imagine the ancient church to sound like.

Okay, I'm not Catholic, but I have spent a LOT of time at Catholic masses, and I have always wondered why the music all sounds like Coke commercials from the 70's.  

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Just now, Terabith said:

Okay, I'm not Catholic, but I have spent a LOT of time at Catholic masses, and I have always wondered why the music all sounds like Coke commercials from the 70's.  

I think you might be insulting the Coke commercials from the 1970s.

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15 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Okay, I'm not Catholic, but I have spent a LOT of time at Catholic masses, and I have always wondered why the music all sounds like Coke commercials from the 70's.  

LOL!

My parish wasn't that bad, but we had some amazing musicians and vocalists who could make anything sound good. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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14 hours ago, Terabith said:

I honestly wonder how people like that make it to adulthood.  Like, are they just so lucky that nothing bad has happened to them or anyone they're close to?  Do they do weird mental gymnastics?  How do you live with that kind of thought process?

I think there are some churches where this is par for the course and a lot where some individuals quietly believe these things but don't speak it aloud--often these people do a lot of mental gymnastics and don't apply this idea consistently at all. Some are consistent but feel persecuted for speaking truth in a context that doesn't appreciate them; when they share this information with you, they think you are doing them a favor.

If the masks=sin thing showed up in my church, 99% would be politics that has manipulated their theology, and 1% people who honestly believe they will be safe because of some faith-related thing. 

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On 6/1/2020 at 9:27 AM, Quill said:

Oh, I totally, emphatically agree! And it is extremely concerning to me what happens with people who simply can’t obtain good information. I think we already see that inequality among the higher cases and deaths in disadvantaged populations. I think it’s a travesty! But, that is my non-political response: caveat emptor

 

Some of the medical channels on YT have addressed this.  There are difference in biochemistry between races, just as there are differences in biochem with different blood types.  So races that have higher circulating levels of VonWillebrand's Factor, for example. will see more clotting, all other things being equal.  That is not to say that there are not also socio-economic factors, such as more front-line jobs, etc.  I suspect we'll find that the second is a much larger, more influential factor, but it doesn't negate the former. 

Edited by Halftime Hope
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12 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

That couldn’t be allowed... the congregation might realize they like chant much better than the typical Marty Haugen type fare served up at many Catholic parishes.  I know I did 😉.  I grew up Baptist and still know the hymnal backwards, forwards, and upside down, converted to Catholicism (despite the absolutely awful tunes passed off as music-no wonder Catholics have a reputation for not singing) and then discovered the Traditional Mass and never went back.  Not just because of the music, but on every level I could finally appreciate the words of the saints when speaking of the beauty of the Mass.  Chant is beautiful and easy to sing.  Our organist/choir director is from Syria originally and when he chants it really sounds like I imagine the ancient church to sound like.

Haugen and his ilk, including GAI, have a lot to answer for. They have done so much to infantilize music for Catholics and convince them they aren’t capable of singing the 2000 year history of music in the Church. I don’t have a lot of nice things to say about what they’ve done to music. 

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16 hours ago, Violet Crown said:

Time for the Gregorian Chant!

HaHa. That would definitely work with our younger families...but the old ones would all be revved up to sing!! I occasionally add chant with my choir, but it's not a main part of our repertoire! But I grew up with it and sometimes miss some of it.

 

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