How do you reply to COVID misinformation/conspiracies from family?

[Moonhawk]

So, I am not sure what to say to this one.  My mom prefaces with "Please read the following, I trust the sender more than the CDC."

Which doesn't bode well for the rest of it.  

Which is very, very long.

What it boils down to:

-"this is not pneumonia but that the lungs are dry with no blood in them"

"Italy has allegedly discovered covid is not a virus, but a bacterium. It clots the blood and reduces oxygen saturation from dispersing throughout the body."

Then some stuff about the WHO and CDC are in cahoots of conspiracies.

"Easily treated with aspirin and coagulant, Spread the word! Make this global! ... Before we lose all of our constitutional freedoms."

"Patients with rheumatoid arthirits have never needed to be admitted to the ICU because they are on corticosteroid therapy, which is a great anti-inflammatory." 

There are actually 3 "articles" put into one long email but the authors seem to be either unknown or fake names (no Google results that would match a reporter). 

I don't want to copy+paste the entire thing here because I don't want to give it credence and myself spread it. Hope these snippets are enough.

-----

So, how do you respond to these types of things?

My parents are becoming more militant and insistent on a lot of their "scientific information" about all of this. I've done a Google search for this conspiracy in particular and found this debunk, but any other information you guys would include (the more scientific, the more backed up, small text, cited, etc, the better!) I'd appreciate any help.

General advice also welcome. 

I'm kind of tired of doing this but feel an obligation to try and correct what I can.

 

 

[Garga]

Hmmm.  I think a FB friend might have posted the thing your parents are talking about.  She posted saying, “I don’t know if this is true. I’m going to try to find out.”  

 

This is what I wrote back:

 

I just read an article and then right underneath that I saw your post.  When I compare that article to yours, some thoughts came to me:

This is a new disease.  When it first appeared, no one knew for sure what the heck was going on. Doctors made decisions on what they saw, but obviously, they only had part of the information needed. It takes time and study to figure out what’s going on.  But they had to do their best to treat the patient in front of them based on what they saw.  (Respiratory illness.)

What you’ve posted all has nuggets of truth in it. That’s what makes it seem almost real.  But mixed in with the nuggets are a lot of hysterical accusations and guesses.  For example: yes, there are blood clotting issues, so aspirin helps. We’ve known that for weeks, maybe a few months now. About a month ago, I went out and bought myself some baby aspirin so that if I caught covid, I could use it to try to stop clots from forming.  But there’s no need to be dramatic, acting like using aspirin was some sort of thing that “they” were trying to cover up.  It’s just a new piece of the puzzle and not some trick. My nurse practitioner friend who works with Covid patients in a hospital said that they’ve recently added blood thinners to every Covid patient’s care.  

New information comes out all the time.  One day, they discover that something else helps the patients, and the next day, they discover that something they thought was going to help, doesn’t help as much as they thought (like the ventilators.). But they can only take action with what they’re seeing in front of them.  As more information comes in, different actions are taken. 

What I have issue with, is the way the information in the above is presented, as if there was some big, scary conspiracy going on to trick us.  That is nonsense. No one is out to get us. No one is trying to trick the entire world.  

And so when new information is found, it’s not because it was ever being deliberately hidden.  

When a new treatment is tried, it’s not because it was being covered up; it’s just something new being tried.

I’ll link the article I just read.  It’s saying that after studying Covid for all these months and trying to make sense of the crazy symptoms, they think this is a disease that doesn’t only affect the lungs, but actually affects the blood vessels.  

But no one knew that a couple of months ago.  It takes time for these things to be discovered.  And if it’s a blood vessel disease, then there are completely different treatments that can be tried for that.  And hopefully, those treatments can change the course of this disease.

  https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2

Edited June 1, 2020 by Garga

[HS Mom in NC]

If it were me I would just say that when it comes to medical related information and decisions, I generally follow experts in the medical field like the CDC. Who else would know more about diseases? Viruses take time to study and they can mutate, so the situation on the ground can change over time-that's to be expected, so I try to keep up with the most recent recommendations.   Based on what I know about human nature, conspiracy theories don't work because people can't keep their mouths shut. 

[kiwik]

I did respond to one aunt that something she posted was fear mongering. 

[Shoeless]

I've switched tactics from informing or correcting (which is often perceived as lecturing), to asking them to explain their theory.

"But why would the CDC and WHO be in cahoots?" ...Blah blah blah crazy theory here...

"I don't get it.  But why would that be true? But why? Why?"

I keep asking them to explain whatever weird idea they have, in depth.  They get frustrated and eventually stop. I'm hoping that once they realize they can't explain their crazy theories, they'll stop to think a little.

[Guest]

I have done like Mrs. Lemon above. I mostly try to work with one or two issues and keep pointing out how something doesn’t make sense to me because of (reasons). 

For example, when the “hot” conspiracy was that “doctors are putting COVID on all the death certificates, even if the person died getting hit by a bus,” I would say, “It doesn’t make sense to me that that could happen on a large scale. Maybe some rogue doctor somewhere might do that but for a large amount of medical examiners to do this doesn’t make sense to me...medical examiners have to determine one or more causes of death all the time, and putting fake info on there would jeopardize their reputation, job, and would risk sanctions and jail time. Why would they risk all that to make death numbers worse than they are?” 

I will say this: when people are very attached to their fake news, logical arguments rarely make much difference. It’s like they just believe 2+2=5 and no amount of logic can overcome the belief they want to be true. I don’t bother with those any more. I will only engage with people who I know to be open to hearing more information.

Actually, I’ve gotten so worn down on COVID lies that I have deleted my FB app, forcing myself to only go to FB through my computer, which I dislike. I am spending much less time on FB because of it. I have also unfollowed or snoozed literally everyone who spouts nonsense on there because I just don’t care anymore. I’m using my FB only to post about (non-political) things I care about and to keep in touch with people I actually like. I know OP didn’t say it was a FB post but this is where I encounter the kookery so this is what I’m doing. 

[Lecka]

You are in my husband’s situation and he feels an obligation to try to convince her of things also.  
 

She is not my mother, which makes a difference, but I think she is having a hard time right now and I am making an effort to engage with her around things like pictures of grandkids, recipes, gardening, cool houses for sale, etc.  

I do not comment on her questionable posts.  
 

She knows my general opinions already — I don’t need to keep telling them to her.  She knows what the “mainstream media wants her to think.”  I think she does, anyway.  
 

It’s a lot more upsetting to my husband and he wants to fact check her or convince her, but I see this as only leading to arguments.  She does not care about fact checks.  
 

I also think she just likes to post things on Facebook, and some meme is not necessarily really representing her, even if she puts it on Facebook. 
 

I am someone who sometimes just likes to share things, and it’s not that serious.  My husband is a lot more thoughtful about anything he shares and doesn’t understand thinking (like I do) some times people just hit share.  
 

I do this, though.  I am not super thoughtful sometimes.  
 

Sometimes too I think “it would be nice of me to share this thing so-and-so posted” — it seems like a nice thing to do.  It doesn’t mean, to me, “I strongly endorse this and it’s something I have given a lot of thought too.”  It’s more just like “hit the button.”

I think this is how my mother-in-law is too to some extent.  She is in a Facebook group and shares all their stuff just because she is in the group, because they are her friends.  I have done things like that on Facebook, too.

 

[TCB]

I saw that one too. The debunking article does a pretty good job.

Things that stood out to me when I read the conspiracy post I saw were:

It has definitely been isolated and found to be a virus not a bacteria. 
You would definitely not give someone with a blood clot a coagulant - something to make the blood clot - as claimed in the conspiracy post you would, of course, give an anti-coagulant.

The doses of aspirin are completely weird in that post. I don’t know what dosages all other countries have but I think they are pretty standard and those dosages are 81 mg and 325 mg.

[MEmama]

7 hours ago, Garga said:

Hmmm.  I think a FB friend might have posted the thing your parents are talking about.  She posted saying, “I don’t know if this is true. I’m going to try to find out.”  

 

This is what I wrote back:

 

I just read an article and then right underneath that I saw your post.  When I compare that article to yours, some thoughts came to me:

This is a new disease.  When it first appeared, no one knew for sure what the heck was going on. Doctors made decisions on what they saw, but obviously, they only had part of the information needed. It takes time and study to figure out what’s going on.  But they had to do their best to treat the patient in front of them based on what they saw.  (Respiratory illness.)

What you’ve posted all has nuggets of truth in it. That’s what makes it seem almost real.  But mixed in with the nuggets are a lot of hysterical accusations and guesses.  For example: yes, there are blood clotting issues, so aspirin helps. We’ve known that for weeks, maybe a few months now. About a month ago, I went out and bought myself some baby aspirin so that if I caught covid, I could use it to try to stop clots from forming.  But there’s no need to be dramatic, acting like using aspirin was some sort of thing that “they” were trying to cover up.  It’s just a new piece of the puzzle and not some trick. My nurse practitioner friend who works with Covid patients in a hospital said that they’ve recently added blood thinners to every Covid patient’s care.  

New information comes out all the time.  One day, they discover that something else helps the patients, and the next day, they discover that something they thought was going to help, doesn’t help as much as they thought (like the ventilators.). But they can only take action with what they’re seeing in front of them.  As more information comes in, different actions are taken. 

What I have issue with, is the way the information in the above is presented, as if there was some big, scary conspiracy going on to trick us.  That is nonsense. No one is out to get us. No one is trying to trick the entire world.  

And so when new information is found, it’s not because it was ever being deliberately hidden.  

When a new treatment is tried, it’s not because it was being covered up; it’s just something new being tried.

I’ll link the article I just read.  It’s saying that after studying Covid for all these months and trying to make sense of the crazy symptoms, they think this is a disease that doesn’t only affect the lungs, but actually affects the blood vessels.  

But no one knew that a couple of months ago.  It takes time for these things to be discovered.  And if it’s a blood vessel disease, then there are completely different treatments that can be tried for that.  And hopefully, those treatments can change the course of this disease.

  https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2

Yes to everything. I only wish in the moment of being confronted by wilful ignorance my brain didn’t freeze and I actually articulate even one of the excellent points you’ve made.

Thank you for posting the link. The article explains my son's Covid toes reaction (and so much more) far better than anything else I’ve read. Now I’m armed with even more questions to ask his doctor. 

[cabercro]

6 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I've switched tactics from informing or correcting (which is often perceived as lecturing), to asking them to explain their theory.

"But why would the CDC and WHO be in cahoots?" ...Blah blah blah crazy theory here...

"I don't get it.  But why would that be true? But why? Why?"

I keep asking them to explain whatever weird idea they have, in depth.  They get frustrated and eventually stop. I'm hoping that once they realize they can't explain their crazy theories, they'll stop to think a little.

 

This!! I've been handling people this way throughout the COVID crisis and it works extremely well. (I blame my middle schoolers - this is the same way I talk them out of "someone stole my pencil").

What I've found is if I go in with a tone of genuine curiosity and do a lot of "Oh, ok. I see. Now tell me about this part." they're pretty willing to dialogue. And through that dialogue one of three things will happen:

1. They'll double down and show their true crazy colors. One woman last week started ranting about the new world order, at which point I slowly backed away.

2. The process of explaining their theory helps me figure out where the holes in their knowledge are, and I can sprinkle in some hypothetical questions or basic, non-scientific facts to help them understand the more science-y bits. Like the woman who refused to wear a mask because it's 'just the flu'. I asked, okay, say you go to your grandmother's nursing home during flu season and they ask you to wear a mask. How would you feel? And once they were able to separate the basic logic of "masks help stop the spread of many different diseases" from the fearful feeling of "if I wear a mask that means the government is controlling me", we could have a more nuanced conversation.

3. They realize they can't explain their crazy theories and ghost me. Or occasionally go the "what I do is nobody's business" route.
 

[Scarlett]

I received this from a former co worker regarding the death of another former co-worker.  He was only 51. 

>>>He went in with problems breathing two weeks ago and they were determined he had covid and tested him twice.. put him on a vent and turns out he was having a heart attack and may have had another a week later.  His family couldn’t be with him. They finally let them go in and spend some time with him at the end.

He did not have covid but hospitals get an extra 32000 dollars when they have a covid patient.

If this was a few Months ago he would have been treated much different and may still be alive.>>>

Sorry I hit post too soon.  I do not believe for one  doctors are letting people die so they can collect $32000.  I just told her it is very sad that our friend died.  

Edited June 1, 2020 by Scarlett

[cintinative]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

I will say this: when people are very attached to their fake news, logical arguments rarely make much difference. It’s like they just believe 2+2=5 and no amount of logic can overcome the belief they want to be true. I don’t bother with those any more. I will only engage with people who I know to be open to hearing more information.

Actually, I’ve gotten so worn down on COVID lies that I have deleted my FB app, forcing myself to only go to FB through my computer, which I dislike. I am spending much less time on FB because of it. I have also unfollowed or snoozed literally everyone who spouts nonsense on there because I just don’t care anymore. I’m using my FB only to post about (non-political) things I care about and to keep in touch with people I actually like. I know OP didn’t say it was a FB post but this is where I encounter the kookery so this is what I’m doing. 

 

Same. 

[TCB]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I received this from a former co worker regarding the death of another former co-worker.  He was only 51. 

>>>He went in with problems breathing two weeks ago and they were determined he had covid and tested him twice.. put him on a vent and turns out he was having a heart attack and may have had another a week later.  His family couldn’t be with him. They finally let them go in and spend some time with him at the end.

He did not have covid but hospitals get an extra 32000 dollars when they have a covid patient.

If this was a few Months ago he would have been treated much different and may still be alive.>>>

I’m not 100% sure that you are asking about how to answer this so just ignore if not.

It sounds like maybe he didn’t test positive. There are problems with false negatives, however sometimes the chest CT shows the classic signs of Covid so it is almost certain they have it even with a negative nasal swab - not sure if this might have been the case.

Another issue is that I’m sure the lag in waiting for test results is causing delay and disruptions in some other tests and treatments. Is this maybe what they honk happened? On the other hand Covid definitely causes heart problems in some people so could be the cause.

ETA In my experience I find it hard to believe that a dr would treat a patient with a life threatening illness for the wrong thing to get more money. There may be some that would but I do not think this is widespread. This is not a comment about persuading some one to have a procedure etc that is not completely necessary. I am commenting on life threatening illness.

Edited June 1, 2020 by TCB

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, TCB said:

I’m not 100% sure that you are asking about how to answer this so just ignore if not.

It sounds like maybe he didn’t test positive. There are problems with false negatives, however sometimes the chest CT shows the classic signs of Covid so it is almost certain they have it even with a negative nasal swab - not sure if this might have been the case.

Another issue is that I’m sure the lag in waiting for test results is causing delay and disruptions in some other tests and treatments. Is this maybe what they honk happened? On the other hand Covid definitely causes heart problems in some people so could be the cause.

ETA In my experience I find it hard to believe that a dr would treat a patient with a life threatening illness for the wrong thing to get more money. There may be some that would but I do not think this is widespread. This is not a comment about persuading some one to have a procedure etc that is not completely necessary. I am commenting on life threatening illness.

Oh sure comments welcome but I was also just letting the OP know I too am having trouble with this conspiracy nonsense.  I don’t know how they missed heart attack twice,  but it sounds like he had Covid symptoms .  And yes I guess it could have been a false negative.  

[Liz CA]

I am thinking of my elderly mother who is not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination but it is difficult to discern loads and loads of information perhaps more so now because this generation is not used to the onslaught of sheer data that we are exposed to via internet. I sometimes have to remind her that just because it's online and published to the world, it may still not be accurate or only be partially accurate.

I was amused at the number of "experts" on pandemics that sprang up on this board suddenly. We are not immune to it either. After reading a few articles (and they may be scientifically based, peer reviewed, etc.) some people feel they are now experts on the subject. Some of these people write / blog something that someone else takes for gospel truth.  Or some people write in the format "appears to be," "seem" and "possibly" indicating that nothing is certain but others misinterpret it as fact.

Maybe I would say something like, "That's interesting. I have to research it some more, etc." With CV19 specifically, I feel scientists are finding things out as they go so there is initially a lot of conflicting info until they learn more.

[Tanaqui]

If this weren't your mom I'd suggest uproarious laughter followed by "Oh, that's so funny! I can't imagine anybody is gullible enough to pass this email along seriously, but it's sure hilarious! Thanks for sharing!"

As it IS your mother, I've got nothing.

[Moonhawk]

45 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

If this weren't your mom I'd suggest uproarious laughter followed by "Oh, that's so funny! I can't imagine anybody is gullible enough to pass this email along seriously, but it's sure hilarious! Thanks for sharing!"

As it IS your mother, I've got nothing.

Yes, my initial reaction is to send memes, but she doesn't understand them at all and sometimes, worst case scenario, sees them as supporting her instead of showing the absurdity 😱

[Moonhawk]

 

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

You are in my husband’s situation and he feels an obligation to try to convince her of things also.  

...

I think this is how my mother-in-law is too to some extent.  She is in a Facebook group and shares all their stuff just because she is in the group, because they are her friends.  I have done things like that on Facebook, too.

I'm sorry your husband is in the same position. But, Thank Goodness my mom isn't on Facebook! I can only imagine what things she'd find. It's bad enough with some of the websites my dad has found. 

I've kind of given up on the convincing them they are wrong and have started to focus on just sowing little seeds of doubt so at least it slows down the train a bit. She outright told me she wouldn't believe any other cable news source (or anything refuting something she has heard from her preferred) because she "knows they are just lying to me".

6 hours ago, Quill said:

I have done like Mrs. Lemon above. I mostly try to work with one or two issues and keep pointing out how something doesn’t make sense to me because of (reasons). 

...

I will say this: when people are very attached to their fake news, logical arguments rarely make much difference. It’s like they just believe 2+2=5 and no amount of logic can overcome the belief they want to be true. I don’t bother with those any more. I will only engage with people who I know to be open to hearing more information.

This is the mindset I'm dealing with, yes. Though she has changed on one or two things (not Covid related, but in the past 6 months). It seems that whatever she hears, if given enough time and distance from the source, she can supplant as being from her cable source. Which then makes it obviously true. 

You know the movie Inception? That's what I feel like I'm playing sometimes: throw these seeds to the wall and see what will grow. Not that I'm trying to deceive her or anything, but I'm just hopeful that something I say in a few months she'll remember the info, just not that I said it.

10 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I've switched tactics from informing or correcting (which is often perceived as lecturing), to asking them to explain their theory.

"But why would the CDC and WHO be in cahoots?" ...Blah blah blah crazy theory here...

"I don't get it.  But why would that be true? But why? Why?"

I keep asking them to explain whatever weird idea they have, in depth.  They get frustrated and eventually stop. I'm hoping that once they realize they can't explain their crazy theories, they'll stop to think a little.

The issue I'm having with this tactic is that she KNOWS she doesn't know anything scientific, so she just argues from authority, but referencing these emails or talking heads as her authority. "Oh, I don't understand everything they said, but they said this and therefore it's true." Very frustrating approach. Emails are actually easier to reply to than live conversations because I can actually dissect it down for her. Real-time conversations can go nowhere. 

3 hours ago, Liz CA said:

I am thinking of my elderly mother who is not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination but it is difficult to discern loads and loads of information perhaps more so now because this generation is not used to the onslaught of sheer data that we are exposed to via internet. I sometimes have to remind her that just because it's online and published to the world, it may still not be accurate or only be partially accurate.

I was amused at the number of "experts" on pandemics that sprang up on this board suddenly. We are not immune to it either. After reading a few articles (and they may be scientifically based, peer reviewed, etc.) some people feel they are now experts on the subject. Some of these people write / blog something that someone else takes for gospel truth.  Or some people write in the format "appears to be," "seem" and "possibly" indicating that nothing is certain but others misinterpret it as fact.

Maybe I would say something like, "That's interesting. I have to research it some more, etc." With CV19 specifically, I feel scientists are finding things out as they go so there is initially a lot of conflicting info until they learn more.

Unfortunately the last time I said this she took that as agreement. Because if I am researching it I will find it's true, right? So kind of before-the-fact agreement, which is simplified to just agreement. Otherwise I think this is a great deflection.

And, I know my own limits on scientific understanding, lol, which makes it all worse. Especially since I'm not keeping up with stuff, I know I'm not qualified to really explain things, but I know what she is saying is wrong. 

---

This whole Covid thing has really exposed me to how far my parents have mentally declined. They seem so together and obviously can function just fine, but the critical thinking skills are just gone, they rely totally on the heuristic of trusting others (and only specific others). I'm starting to wonder who I've been taking advice from for my adult life. I really regret some of the guidance I took but I thought it was just bad luck or bad execution on my part, but now I'm wondering ... can't change the past, but at least now I'm on guard for the future. 

Thanks for the suggestions and help!

[Shoeless]

On 6/1/2020 at 12:53 PM, Moonhawk said:

This whole Covid thing has really exposed me to how far my parents have mentally declined. They seem so together and obviously can function just fine, but the critical thinking skills are just gone, they rely totally on the heuristic of trusting others (and only specific others). I'm starting to wonder who I've been taking advice from for my adult life. I really regret some of the guidance I took but I thought it was just bad luck or bad execution on my part, but now I'm wondering ... can't change the past, but at least now I'm on guard for the future. 

Thanks for the suggestions and help!

 

Yeah, my dad has made some...really puzzling decisions over the last few years. I don't fear for his immediate physical safety; he's not going to burn the house down or fall or anything like that.  But the critical thinking skills are not where they used to be.  And yes, he's made some baffling choices regarding covid.  There's a lot I'm ignoring because I really can't change his mind or effect any change from where I am (we're 1000+ miles apart).  😕