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Teaching3bears

The second dumb thing we have done in the pandemic

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2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm not impressed by self reported, anecdotal evidence (a sentiment that I hope would be shared by anyone with even a bit of critical thinking skills).

I too have medical contacts. I've yet to hear one of them express anything other than total, 100 percent support of mask wearing. Like DH's oncologist, his cousin who is a cardiac intensive care nurse at a very well known university hospital, and my rheumatologist. I could add several more. But I wouldn't expect anyone to take their opinion for it, even though each of them certainly has some degree of knowledge and expertise. There's no need to do so, given that we have quite a lot of solid, evidence based studies that support mask wearing.


Right. Arguments by authority are simply not necessary here. This isn’t abstruse.

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7 minutes ago, square_25 said:


But people have explained why they think it works. So far, your evidence it doesn’t work is a meme misunderstanding droplet spread.

I would like to KNOW whether masks work. This isn’t a religious belief for me, as it involves my own decisions. I will either get on the subway or will not. I need to know.

But I won’t be convinced by appeals to authority. I need real data.

I grabbed that because it happened to be quickly available while I was eating.  Appeals to authority are indeed weak, and anecdotes are many.  In the end this comes down to individual choice no matter what is spouted on here or elsewhere on line to one side or the other.  I’m wearing my mask, the medical teams are wearing theirs when in front of patients or passing in hallways, at least.  A couple folks had their IV poles and N100s while walking, and they’re about the only ones I think are gleaning much benefit and get a wave and thumbs up from me when I pass.

Please keep wearing masks if they make you feel better and safer and more considerate and morally upright and show love of neighbor etc etc etc.  I am not stopping you, I will smile at you, and I will comply where required.  You do you, and don’t be a dick when they do them.  That’s really my only point I care about.  This moral judgment about people who don’t wear masks for various reasons isn’t better than the judgments about those who do, no matter how much you (general you) insist that it is.

Now, as someone who doesn’t really care except that I hope everyone keeps hand washing and doesn’t go into public when sick, I’m going to eat something so I don’t get even more hangry.

 

Edited by Arctic Mama
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1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

I grabbed that because it happened to be quickly available while I was eating.  Appeals to authority are indeed weak, and anecdotes are many.  In the end this comes down to individual choice no matter what is spouted on here or elsewhere on line to one side or the other.  I’m wearing my mask, the medical teams are wearing theirs when in front of patients or passing in hallways, at least.  A couple folks had their IV poles and N100s while walking, and they’re about the only ones I think are gleaning much benefit and get a wave and thumbs up from me when I pass.


Welcome to the post-truth world, I guess. Everyone picks a side, communication is impossible if you disagree, and who cares about the data?

That's depressing. And utterly unscientific.

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The choice to wear one comes down to individuals, sure, but efficacy? Not so much.

Edited by Sneezyone
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Just now, Sneezyone said:

The choice to wear one comes down to individuals, sure, buy efficacy? Not so much.

Well, I’m sure if you wear it on top of your head, it won’t help ;-). So individual choice helps there!

Of course, I don’t have PROOF that this won’t help. Anyone got a study? 😉

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Just now, square_25 said:


Welcome to the post-truth world, I guess. Everyone picks a side, communication is impossible if you disagree, and who cares about the data?

That's depressing. And utterly unscientific.

That you got that from me being a good little citizen and wearing my little mask even better than the providers in the same facility, and wanting to show solidarity to the patients with full on respirators?  I’m not the one who is the problem here???

The data is weak at best in the current set, or contraindicated depending on if the risk is more from facial touching or damp, moldy, particle laden air as opposed to possible open air spread of CV.  That’s about as far as I’ll take it, because I have actual real problems to spend mental energy on and my mask sewing is complete for the next decade 🙂

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2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

That you got that from me being a good little citizen and wearing my little mask even better than the providers in the same facility, and wanting to show solidarity to the patients with full on respirators?  I’m not the one who is the problem here???

The data is weak at best in the current set, or contraindicated depending on if the risk is more from facial touching or damp, moldy, particle laden air as opposed to possible open air spread of CV.  That’s about as far as I’ll take it, because I have actual real problems to spend mental energy on and my mask sewing is complete for the next decade 🙂

If the data is weak, let’s talk about the data. I’m willing to be convinced. What is your data?

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17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


Actually, it’s the official, collective scientific opinion of MULTIPLE national governments that have seen positive results from universal masking versus random internet experts.

A lot of the people masking in stores near me are wearing surgical masks anyway. They’re readily available on Amazon from Chinese suppliers.

What national governments have presented an official, collective scientific opinion?  I am not sure what that would mean in the US.  Is it an official opinion of someone at a governmental agency?  Is it a policy endorsed by a group of scientists?  Do all officials or scientists hold that same opinion?  Do the majority?  Is that majority 51% or99%?  

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

I think the store discussion is a really excellent illustration of why everyone deciding on the risk for themselves is not a great idea. 

First of all, I think every single person on this thread is trying to do the best, safest thing for both themselves and everyone around them with respect to grocery shopping. For some of us, that seems to be getting food delivered. For some of us, that seems to be going to stores. 

You know what would really help here? A cohesive plan for how people are going to get groceries and a public health message about it. Then instead of "virtue signaling," we might actually be able to figure out the right thing. 

For example, one plan could involve only the vulnerable population getting their groceries delivered, as well as extreme care not to have sick people working (paid sick leave, testing, etc.) and mask rules for every store. That would actually make a lot of sense! That way, we would keep risks in grocery stores low, and we would also protect the vulnerable population. 

Another plan would be to ramp up deliveries so that the stores practically never have anyone but the delivery people in them. That would also probably reduce spread and would also make jobs for people (and it would make sense to pay these jobs well.) 

Either of these plans make sense! The thing that makes less sense is all of us making these decisions separately so there's no rhyme or reason to them. For all I know, I've been taking slots away from vulnerable people when I've been getting food delivered :-/. For all you know, you've had an asymptomatic case in a store and you spread it to a vulnerable older person while in there. There's no plan, which leads to chaos instead of reduced spread. And that's a problem. 

I was just thinking th exact opposite. 😂

I don't want a one-size fits all mandate or message from above because my needs and safety factors are vastly different from everyone else's and what someone needs or wants delivered, other people want or need to get for themselves. I don't think there is a right or even best way in this case.

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1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

What national governments have presented an official, collective scientific opinion?  I am not sure what that would mean in the US.  Is it an official opinion of someone at a governmental agency?  Is it a policy endorsed by a group of scientists?  Do all officials or scientists hold that same opinion?  Do the majority?  Is that majority 51% or99%?  

It’s recommended by the CDC in the US. I’m sure the US is not alone.

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What I really want to know is how much is actually lowers risk to every one else when I am there at the grocery store.  That's really the only place I am going right now, and once the library fully opens we will be going there like once a week or once every other week.  

I am asymptomatic, meaning, I am not coughing, I am not sneezing.  I have no reason to believe I have been exposed.  As I mentioned, my county has a very low concentration of cases, and the nearby surrounding counties...even less.  

What I want to know is if wearing a homemade mask is going to provide enough risk mitigation to others to make it worthwhile to spend my time and fabric making my own, compared to someone in my situation with no mask.  How likely am I to infect someone wearing a particular type of mask (pattern and fabric), vs how likely am I to infect someone without anything.  I am already pretty unlikely to infect someone else....so how much less likely am I to infect someone with a homemade mask.  (again, actual medical masks, I am not interested in because I believe those should be reserved for those who have much greater risks like medical personnel.)

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2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

What national governments have presented an official, collective scientific opinion?  I am not sure what that would mean in the US.  Is it an official opinion of someone at a governmental agency?  Is it a policy endorsed by a group of scientists?  Do all officials or scientists hold that same opinion?  Do the majority?  Is that majority 51% or99%?  

I don’t think we’re going to get to 99% given the amount of data. And yet we still need to make decisions both as individuals and as a nation. That’s why I’m asking people for evidence.

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1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

What I want to know is if wearing a homemade mask is going to provide enough risk mitigation to others to make it worthwhile to spend my time and fabric making my own, compared to someone in my situation with no mask.  How likely am I to infect someone wearing a particular type of mask (pattern and fabric), vs how likely am I to infect someone without anything.  I am already pretty unlikely to infect someone else....so how much less likely am I to infect someone with a homemade mask.  (again, actual medical masks, I am not interested in because I believe those should be reserved for those who have much greater risks like medical personnel.)

It’s a good question. And the problem is there won’t be perfect answers. 

But I think the better question is “What is the rate of spread if most people wear masks versus if most don’t?” It’s simply too hard to evaluate the question at the individual level.

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4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It’s a good question. And the problem is there won’t be perfect answers. 

But I think the better question is “What is the rate of spread if most people wear masks versus if most don’t?” It’s simply too hard to evaluate the question at the individual level.

You are totally correct.....there won't be perfect answers.  Which means that really, if I have looked at the information I have, in the situation I am in, and have decided that, given all that, mask wearing isn't really worth it, then no, I am not going to make my own, and no, I don't want others to make them for me.  I will however wear a bandana (or one of my cloth napkins lol) just to conform, for the moment.  

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6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

What I really want to know is how much is actually lowers risk to every one else when I am there at the grocery store.  That's really the only place I am going right now, and once the library fully opens we will be going there like once a week or once every other week.  

I am asymptomatic, meaning, I am not coughing, I am not sneezing.  I have no reason to believe I have been exposed.  As I mentioned, my county has a very low concentration of cases, and the nearby surrounding counties...even less.  

What I want to know is if wearing a homemade mask is going to provide enough risk mitigation to others to make it worthwhile to spend my time and fabric making my own, compared to someone in my situation with no mask.  How likely am I to infect someone wearing a particular type of mask (pattern and fabric), vs how likely am I to infect someone without anything.  I am already pretty unlikely to infect someone else....so how much less likely am I to infect someone with a homemade mask.  (again, actual medical masks, I am not interested in because I believe those should be reserved for those who have much greater risks like medical personnel.)

Basically, what Square said. The probability that you specifically not wearing a mask is going to make a difference is very low, but not zero. Each person wearing one reduces the risk though, so that if you have every person masked, everyone’s collective contribution to reducing the risk adds up to a sizable impact. The fact is that there are some people out there that will be infected and not know it. There’s a low chance that it’s you, but you don’t know and we don’t know. If everyone masks, that ensures whoever draws the unlucky card and is the asymptotic carrier will be keeping their droplets to themself. 

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4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

You are totally correct.....there won't be perfect answers.  Which means that really, if I have looked at the information I have, in the situation I am in, and have decided that, given all that, mask wearing isn't really worth it, then no, I am not going to make my own, and no, I don't want others to make them for me.  I will however wear a bandana (or one of my cloth napkins lol) just to conform, for the moment.  

And that bandana or napkin is fine. It’s unlikely to protect you, but hopefully it is catching a good portion of your droplets so they don’t spread out from you to others. 

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4 minutes ago, kand said:

The probability that you specifically not wearing a mask is going to make a difference is very low, but not zero.

Well, the same could be said of hitting a patch of black ice and sliding into another car on my way to Meijer.  I still drive to Meijer once a week.

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6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

You are totally correct.....there won't be perfect answers.  Which means that really, if I have looked at the information I have, in the situation I am in, and have decided that, given all that, mask wearing isn't really worth it, then no, I am not going to make my own, and no, I don't want others to make them for me.  I will however wear a bandana (or one of my cloth napkins lol) just to conform, for the moment.  

Makes sense.

Would it change your mind if there are more cases near you?

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Just now, happysmileylady said:

Well, the same could be said of hitting a patch of black ice and sliding into another car on my way to Meijer.  I still drive to Meijer once a week.

And if you knew there was lots of black ice and didn’t have the right tires, I’d recommend you stay home ;-).

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3 minutes ago, kand said:

And that bandana or napkin is fine. It’s unlikely to protect you, but hopefully it is catching a good portion of your droplets so they don’t spread out from you to others. 

I consider myself very low low risk for catching Covid, as well as for having complications.  I think my greatest exposure risk is actually coming from DH, who is back at work now (though he has never worked with the public.)  

People who aren't coughing, aren't sneezing and trying their dangdest to avoid small talk (I really didn't want to talk to people in the grocery line before covid lol) are producing so few respiratory droplets that the risk to others is already extremely low.  

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19 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

What I really want to know is how much is actually lowers risk to every one else when I am there at the grocery store.  That's really the only place I am going right now, and once the library fully opens we will be going there like once a week or once every other week.  

I am asymptomatic, meaning, I am not coughing, I am not sneezing.  I have no reason to believe I have been exposed.  As I mentioned, my county has a very low concentration of cases, and the nearby surrounding counties...even less.  

What I want to know is if wearing a homemade mask is going to provide enough risk mitigation to others to make it worthwhile to spend my time and fabric making my own, compared to someone in my situation with no mask.  How likely am I to infect someone wearing a particular type of mask (pattern and fabric), vs how likely am I to infect someone without anything.  I am already pretty unlikely to infect someone else....so how much less likely am I to infect someone with a homemade mask.  (again, actual medical masks, I am not interested in because I believe those should be reserved for those who have much greater risks like medical personnel.)

All those things are exactly what we need to know!

ETA - But I don't know if we will be able to get that information.

Edited by TCB

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Makes sense.

Would it change your mind if there are more cases near you?

It might very well do so, because the overall risk level changes.  

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6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

And if you knew there was lots of black ice and didn’t have the right tires, I’d recommend you stay home ;-).

Much like asymptomatic carriers, levels of black ice are just a guess.  In terms of weather, I would be making my decisions based on the actual weather conditions I could see.  The more weather I can see, the more likely that dangerous conditions I can't see are present.  I am not going to not go to the grocery store if it's 25*, but not snowing.   But there could still be black ice on the road.  

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8 minutes ago, TCB said:

All those things are exactly what we need to know!

ETA - But I don't know if we will be able to get that information.

You are correct, we probably won't.  

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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

You are correct, we probably won't.  

Actually, randomized sampling in the population is a great way to get the rate of local asymptomatic spread. And we should have been doing this starting, oh, I don't know, February. 

We do always have to evaluate the risk. 

Edited by square_25
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8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It might very well do so, because the overall risk level changes.  

That makes sense to me, then. 

I mean, no one is pushing "masks anywhere," right? If you're at home, no one is going to say you should wear a mask. That's because we figure rate of spread if you're home is... limited ;-). 

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The other thing you do when you wear a mask is you normalize mask-wearing. Even if you believe you yourself are low risk (which I firmly believe about myself), you can help make sure people who are higher risk don't feel embarrassed about wearing a mask and feel comfortable doing so. 

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4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

The other thing you do when you wear a mask is you normalize mask-wearing. Even if you believe you yourself are low risk (which I firmly believe about myself), you can help make sure people who are higher risk don't feel embarrassed about wearing a mask and feel comfortable doing so. 

Sure, I have no problem helping other folks feel better about it.  Thats why I do it when I am at the store.  

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49 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

What national governments have presented an official, collective scientific opinion?  I am not sure what that would mean in the US.  Is it an official opinion of someone at a governmental agency?  Is it a policy endorsed by a group of scientists?  Do all officials or scientists hold that same opinion?  Do the majority?  Is that majority 51% or99%?  

 

The U.S. For starters has recommended, OFFICIALLY, mask wearing where 6 ft of distance cannot be maintained regardless of what King Cheeto says. Let's start close to home. Beyond that, more than 50 countries have made it compulsory. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/countries-wearing-face-masks-compulsory-200423094510867.html Hmm...what do the countries that have made it compulsory have in common?

Edited by Sneezyone
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10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

The U.S. For starters has recommended, OFFICIALLY, mask wearing where 6 ft of distance cannot be maintained regardless of what King Cheeto says. Let's start close to home. Beyond that, more than 50 countries have made it compulsory. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/countries-wearing-face-masks-compulsory-200423094510867.html Hmm...what do the countries that have made it compulsory have in common?

These are the third and fourth sentences of the article you link:

There have been a number of conflicting opinions on whether face masks can prevent the new coronavirus from transmitting from one person to another. The World Health Organization (WHO) has recommended that healthy people do not need to wear a mask, but those who are feeling unwell and are coughing and sneezing, as well as caring for someone who is infected, should do so.

I happen to be in one of the fifty countries listed and it is not a requirement to cover your face when you leave home here.  So, I would be careful in drawing any conclusions from that list and the article.  

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2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

These are the third and fourth sentences of the article you link:

There have been a number of conflicting opinions on whether face masks can prevent the new coronavirus from transmitting from one person to another. The World Health Organization (WHO) has recommended that healthy people do not need to wear a mask, but those who are feeling unwell and are coughing and sneezing, as well as caring for someone who is infected, should do so.

I happen to be in one of the fifty countries listed and it is not a requirement to cover your face when you leave home here.  So, I would be careful in drawing any conclusions from that list and the article.  

 

You asked which countries made it compulsory, a choice that reflects a national consensus. That does NOT mean unanimity. These countries also have significantly lower curves than the U.S. Is the information as reported inaccurate or have conditions loosened or changed?  Be specific.

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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

You asked which countries made it compulsory, a choice that reflects a national consensus. That does NOT mean unanimity. These countries also have significantly lower curves than the U.S. Is the information as reported inaccurate or have conditions loosened or changed?  Be specific.

I do not recall asking what countries made it compulsory.  Even if a country does make something compulsory, that in no way reflects a national consensus. 

This title More than 50 countries require people to cover their faces when they leave home. is not correct.  Some of these countries have limited situations in which face coverings are required--not when people leave their homes.  Some of the countries that are listed have enacted these requirements this past week (one as recent as yesterday), so in those situations I do not think you can link any difference in outcome of cases to this requirement.  Also, I do not think all of those countries have significantly lower curves--look at Spain; France is reporting less cases per capita than the US but many more deaths per capita (and has less than half the testing per capita)

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

It’s recommended by the CDC in the US. I’m sure the US is not alone.

Still, I have never seen any data from them, just a recommendation.  How can there possibly be any legitimate data?  No one from certain circles accepts anything positive unless it comes from an randomized, etc, etc trial - how can that even be possible for masks???  You could test some individual mask, but it is hardly like everyone is wearing an n95 respirator...the masks I see in common use (they are required here inside public buildings) are a cotton pickin’ joke.  Most fit like a sloppy sweatshirt-gaps all around, the fabric isn’t designed to stop a virus even if it happens to fit well, people pull them down because no one can understand them speak, and they are constantly adjusting them or shoving them in a pocket or a purse to be reused later.  Don’t even get me started on bandanas and scarves.  There is no way on God’s green earth that they are doing any good IN PRACTICE even if (and that’s a big if) you could find some data that a homemade cotton or store bought nylon number does any good at all.  I wear my mask and pray that I am not causing myself more harm than any potential good.  
 

 

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14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

You asked which countries made it compulsory, a choice that reflects a national consensus. That does NOT mean unanimity. These countries also have significantly lower curves than the U.S. Is the information as reported inaccurate or have conditions loosened or changed?  Be specific.

National consensus doesn’t equal data showing effectiveness -

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Just now, Mom2mthj said:

National consensus doesn’t equal data showing effectiveness -

 

Pretty sure my post already said that.

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Ultimately, just like in 1918, those countries that are successful will serve as models of what to do and those with 100K plus deaths will serve as examples of what not to do. Twas ever thus. Individuals are free to make other choices. It's necessarily hard to gather exacting data in the middle of an uncontrolled outbreak. I think the relative success of nations with more robust responses speaks for itself.

Edited by Sneezyone
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50 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Sure, I have no problem helping other folks feel better about it.  Thats why I do it when I am at the store.  

I wear mine at the store because currently it is mandated In my state.  Making someone “feel better” if it is a false sense of security doesn’t help anyone in the long run.

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4 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

I wear mine at the store because currently it is mandated In my state.  Making someone “feel better” if it is a false sense of security doesn’t help anyone in the long run.

totally correct.  

But since it's super easy, I don't have an issue with it.  Much like I feel like it's pretty much security theater to wear it into the store....It's also really not worth the hassle to me to potentially deal with the other side of things.

 

My costco cheese is much more important to me than trying to take some sort of stand about a topic that doesn't matter than much to me IRL.   (FTR, that's not sarcasm.  I would rather wear a mask in costco and get the cheese that's affordable to me, than deal with trying to take some sort of political stance at costco.....or spend more money than necessary trying to order pick up from Kroger.....that's going to screw it up anyway.  )

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1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I do not recall asking what countries made it compulsory.  Even if a country does make something compulsory, that in no way reflects a national consensus. 

This title More than 50 countries require people to cover their faces when they leave home. is not correct.  Some of these countries have limited situations in which face coverings are required--not when people leave their homes.  Some of the countries that are listed have enacted these requirements this past week (one as recent as yesterday), so in those situations I do not think you can link any difference in outcome of cases to this requirement.  Also, I do not think all of those countries have significantly lower curves--look at Spain; France is reporting less cases per capita than the US but many more deaths per capita (and has less than half the testing per capita)

 

This is really too soon to tell. If, out of 50 countries, you can point to FIVE as exemplars of less successful outcomes (but only in terms of deaths per capita), yeah, I'm OK with following their national leaders and NOT my own. The article was posted, literally, yesterday so I see no falsehoods indicated.

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

Still, I have never seen any data from them, just a recommendation.  How can there possibly be any legitimate data?  No one from certain circles accepts anything positive unless it comes from an randomized, etc, etc trial - how can that even be possible for masks???  You could test some individual mask, but it is hardly like everyone is wearing an n95 respirator...the masks I see in common use (they are required here inside public buildings) are a cotton pickin’ joke.  Most fit like a sloppy sweatshirt-gaps all around, the fabric isn’t designed to stop a virus even if it happens to fit well, people pull them down because no one can understand them speak, and they are constantly adjusting them or shoving them in a pocket or a purse to be reused later.  Don’t even get me started on bandanas and scarves.  There is no way on God’s green earth that they are doing any good IN PRACTICE even if (and that’s a big if) you could find some data that a homemade cotton or store bought nylon number does any good at all.  I wear my mask and pray that I am not causing myself more harm than any potential good.  
 

 

Actually, I would guess any covering over your mouth is better than nothing. Anyway, there was a link above showing that they tested different times of masks. 

As for how you could have legitimate data... well, you're sure not going to have a RCT, but we can make observations and try to conclude things from them. And then sometimes we'll be wrong, because that's how science works. But we can't wait for perfect data here. 

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1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

Also, I do not think all of those countries have significantly lower curves--look at Spain; France is reporting less cases per capita than the US but many more deaths per capita (and has less than half the testing per capita)

Yeah, I see their curves. They are far steeper on the way down than ours, but that says very little about masks and a lot about the effectiveness of stricter shutdowns. 

We'll see how well masks work in Western settings as places reopen. Currently, our best mask data (other than actual localized studies of which masks allow particles to pass through and which don't) is from Asia. And we do know that HCWs have lower rates of antibodies in NY than the general population, which to me is suggestive, although of course they are wearing actual surgical masks and N95s and not random stuff. But of course, we'll see. 

Edited by square_25

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4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

For real.....I don't care if others look at whatever evidence is available and decide that masks are worthwhile.

I disagree with that conclusion.  I straight up don't have to agree.  And since it isn't required in my state.....I don't even have to do it anyway.  

SO, which would you prefer....that I wear a homemade mask that you believe protects the most vulnerable, to make you (general you) feel better ....or that I chose not to and walk around the grocery store without a mask (and without coughing or sneezing or talking to people) in order to not be pretending.

 

Um, wear the mask, because the limited data we DO have says that means you are less likely to spread it. 

4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

If someone could tell me that Pattern X, or Pattern Y or Pattern Z, made with A or B fabric, would reduce the risk to others by a reasonable amount....I would be all about making a regular mask.

I just don't think that sort of information exists.  

Yes, it does. I linked some earlier.

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

 I’m more interested in the fact that the staff at an extensive, renowned children’s hospital visibly do not buy into it and admit this is more of a ‘makes the parents feel better’ and ‘complies with policy’ move than that it helps much or at all.  It has been interesting to listen to their thoughts and see their actions, which are sometimes contrary to what they have said.

Don’t mistake me for someone who cares much at all, I was That Mom before this started, and I’ll be her after this blows over too. But not on masks, except where sterile protocol is enacted and we are suited up properly.  That’s a completely different animal though.

Well, given how many in the medical profession continued smoking LONG after it was known to be dangerous, yeah, even doctors do dumb stuff regarding their health. 

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:


Please keep wearing masks if they make you feel better and safer and more considerate and morally upright and show love of neighbor etc etc etc.  I am not stopping you, I will smile at you, and I will comply where required.  You do you, and don’t be a dick when they do them.  That’s really my only point I care about.  This moral judgment about people who don’t wear masks for various reasons isn’t better than the judgments about those who do, no matter how much you (general you) insist that it is.

Now, as someone who doesn’t really care except that I hope everyone keeps hand washing and doesn’t go into public when sick, I’m going to eat something so I don’t get even more hangry.

 

People make moral judgements all the time. I think smoking in public is also a moral issue, as it can cause harm to others. It is their personal choice, obviously, just like it is to not mask. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have effect on others. 

3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

 

The data is weak at best in the current set, or contraindicated depending on if the risk is more from facial touching or damp, moldy, particle laden air as opposed to possible open air spread of CV.  That’s about as far as I’ll take it, because I have actual real problems to spend mental energy on and my mask sewing is complete for the next decade 🙂

What data is there that there is any risk in wearing a mask to the store for say, an hour? What moldy particles is someone inhaling, if they wash their mask or sterilize it as they are supposed to? I mean, sure, I might wear gross dirty shoes and get athletes foot, but it doesn't mean wearing shoes in a store is risky. 

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

What I really want to know is how much is actually lowers risk to every one else when I am there at the grocery store.  That's really the only place I am going right now, and once the library fully opens we will be going there like once a week or once every other week.  

I am asymptomatic, meaning, I am not coughing, I am not sneezing.  I have no reason to believe I have been exposed.  As I mentioned, my county has a very low concentration of cases, and the nearby surrounding counties...even less.  

What I want to know is if wearing a homemade mask is going to provide enough risk mitigation to others to make it worthwhile to spend my time and fabric making my own, compared to someone in my situation with no mask.  How likely am I to infect someone wearing a particular type of mask (pattern and fabric), vs how likely am I to infect someone without anything.  I am already pretty unlikely to infect someone else....so how much less likely am I to infect someone with a homemade mask.  (again, actual medical masks, I am not interested in because I believe those should be reserved for those who have much greater risks like medical personnel.)

I linked an evidence review earlier today..one of those showed that masks reduced SARS transmission by nearly half. There is also the study about the hamster cages and masks. Or this, which is based on assumptions, but assumptions that experts feel are decent. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_brand=vf&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR06bKoBRQABxq-D7SqD5AHVGR8jVGE77cWzx5f1OMwKz0hkLT-_Nkcn0Gw

2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Still, I have never seen any data from them, just a recommendation.  How can there possibly be any legitimate data?  No one from certain circles accepts anything positive unless it comes from an randomized, etc, etc trial - how can that even be possible for masks???  You could test some individual mask, but it is hardly like everyone is wearing an n95 respirator...the masks I see in common use (they are required here inside public buildings) are a cotton pickin’ joke.  Most fit like a sloppy sweatshirt-gaps all around, the fabric isn’t designed to stop a virus even if it happens to fit well, people pull them down because no one can understand them speak, and they are constantly adjusting them or shoving them in a pocket or a purse to be reused later.  Don’t even get me started on bandanas and scarves.  There is no way on God’s green earth that they are doing any good IN PRACTICE even if (and that’s a big if) you could find some data that a homemade cotton or store bought nylon number does any good at all.  I wear my mask and pray that I am not causing myself more harm than any potential good.  
 

 

1. the point is to protect others. 2. No one is saying wearing a mask without actually covering your mouth and nose is effective - they are not magic. Doing so is the equivalent of wearing a condom on your thumb instead of the relevant body part. People can be taught though. 3. What harm would you be causing yourself?

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5 hours ago, square_25 said:

The other thing you do when you wear a mask is you normalize mask-wearing. Even if you believe you yourself are low risk (which I firmly believe about myself), you can help make sure people who are higher risk don't feel embarrassed about wearing a mask and feel comfortable doing so. 

I understand your point, or at least I think I do, that by "normalize" you mean "remove a stigma from". I agree that people should feel free to wear them without fear of repercussions or ridicule. And I'm willing to be wear mine in public as a temporary measure til we get a better handle on this thing.

But I have to say that I am not interested in living in a country where it is considered "normal" to wear a mask. Not being able to read a person's facial expression? Not being able to converse easily? Social interaction out in public being curtailed? Having my young kids/baby get so used to it that they're not shy around people in masks anymore? No thanks.

In other countries I understand the culture and practices and norms are different, and that's fine. No judgment. But that's not how I want to live as an American and have it be the "new normal".

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1 minute ago, Momto6inIN said:

I understand your point, or at least I think I do, that by "normalize" you mean "remove a stigma from". I agree that people should feel free to wear them without fear of repercussions or ridicule. And I'm willing to be wear mine in public as a temporary measure til we get a better handle on this thing.

But I have to say that I am not interested in living in a country where it is considered "normal" to wear a mask. Not being able to read a person's facial expression? Not being able to converse easily? Social interaction out in public being curtailed? Having my young kids/baby get so used to it that they're not shy around people in masks anymore? No thanks.

In other countries I understand the culture and practices and norms are different, and that's fine. No judgment. But that's not how I want to live as an American and have it be the "new normal".

 

Well, I do mean temporarily normalize. Whether it becomes the permanent new normal. will simply depend on how long this sticks around and whether we have more pandemics :-/. For Asia, this isn't their first rodeo. 

I also don't want this to be the new normal, by the way. I just don't know if I get to decide that. 

Edited by square_25
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18 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

I understand your point, or at least I think I do, that by "normalize" you mean "remove a stigma from". I agree that people should feel free to wear them without fear of repercussions or ridicule. And I'm willing to be wear mine in public as a temporary measure til we get a better handle on this thing.

But I have to say that I am not interested in living in a country where it is considered "normal" to wear a mask. Not being able to read a person's facial expression? Not being able to converse easily? Social interaction out in public being curtailed? Having my young kids/baby get so used to it that they're not shy around people in masks anymore? No thanks.

In other countries I understand the culture and practices and norms are different, and that's fine. No judgment. But that's not how I want to live as an American and have it be the "new normal".

I kind of feel this. I took my baby for his 6 month check and he was so freaked out by no one having faces. I mean, I get it and I don't want them not wearing masks right now, but the ability to smile at a baby when they are scared...it just caught me off guard what a difference it made in our appointment with the tech, doctor, and at immunizations to have literally no one there, not even mom, being able to show their face to him. It was so sad.

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One layer of high thread count cotton combined with two layers of silk filters out greater than 90% of particles larger than 300 nanometers.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/allisongasparini/2020/04/27/how-effective-are-cloth-face-masks-anyway-here-are-the-fabrics-which-filter-out-airborne-particles-best/#253f659c33ce

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7185834/

https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-homemade-mask-material-DIY-face-mask-ppe.html

I'm trying to convince my mother in law, who is the person who can sew, that it really would be better to make masks out of something other than gauze.  

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33 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I kind of feel this. I took my baby for his 6 month check and he was so freaked out by no one having faces. I mean, I get it and I don't want them not wearing masks right now, but the ability to smile at a baby when they are scared...it just caught me off guard what a difference it made in our appointment with the tech, doctor, and at immunizations to have literally no one there, not even mom, being able to show their face to him. It was so sad.

It’s a difficult situation for deaf/HOH who rely on lip reading too

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54 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

I understand your point, or at least I think I do, that by "normalize" you mean "remove a stigma from". I agree that people should feel free to wear them without fear of repercussions or ridicule. And I'm willing to be wear mine in public as a temporary measure til we get a better handle on this thing.

But I have to say that I am not interested in living in a country where it is considered "normal" to wear a mask. Not being able to read a person's facial expression? Not being able to converse easily? Social interaction out in public being curtailed? Having my young kids/baby get so used to it that they're not shy around people in masks anymore? No thanks.

In other countries I understand the culture and practices and norms are different, and that's fine. No judgment. But that's not how I want to live as an American and have it be the "new normal".

I hate the idea myself...in large part because I have hearing issues and rely on reading lips a lot. But I'd rather have masking be the new normal than have my kids grow up without me, or have them live in a place where people are dying in huge numbers, etc. 

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So, apparently an elderly man in our building died of COVID :-/. That makes me feel 

a) sad

and 

b) anxious, because we had the virus in the building and we had no idea. 

The man's neighbor told DH in the elevator (we've been using the elevator, because we're on the 8th floor, and bringing up groceries that far up is a huge pain), which is also not great, because who knows whether this man also got exposed. Cue DH and me imagining symptoms in the next few days :-(. 

Sigh. I'm tired of this pandemic. Anyone else? 

Edited by square_25
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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

So, apparently an elderly man in our building died of COVID :-/. That makes me feel 

a) sad

and 

b) anxious, because we had the virus in the building and we had no idea. 

The man's neighbor told DH in the elevator (we've been using the elevator, because we're on the 8th floor, and bringing up groceries that far up is a huge pain), which is also not great, because who knows whether this man also got exposed. Cue DH and me imagining symptoms in the next few days :-(. 

Sigh. I'm tired of this pandemic. Anyone else? 

That sounds stressful. 

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