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The second dumb thing we have done in the pandemic


Teaching3bears
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Just saying — I think coughing is different from just breathing and talking.

I don’t think someone violently coughing should probably be out in public.  
 

But saying it doesn’t work for coughing doesn’t mean it is ineffective for talking and breathing.

I think it’s important for health care workers to know if their patients who are coughing need a stronger mask.

But I don’t feel like that changes anything for me as far as masks in public.

At this point, at least.  I am not sure what it will seem like 3 or 6 months from now.  

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I have read accounts where there are people in an emergency room with numerous people coughing very hard and wearing a mask they are given by the hospital.  I think it’s important to know what they need and what is good enough.

Separately — we are on track to go to a destination wedding at Lake of the Ozarks over Labor Day.  It is up in the air if they will have the wedding or if we will go.  They might do a tiny wedding with live-streaming (we would not he invited in person if that is the case).  The pictures made me hope we can go even though — we will be at a family place if we go, not a party place.  It looked so fun.  I talked to my husband and we are just going to wait and see.  The bride and groom are also going to wait and see.  I so hate this whole thing.  

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39 minutes ago, Skippy said:

There is some recent research evaluating effectiveness of surgical and cotton masks in filtering SARS–CoV-2 specifically. I found it in the Annals of Internal Medicine.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342

"In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface."

That was interesting, however the discussion below the initial study seemed to raise a number of questions about the conclusion they reached. I don't know if I missed it but what was the deal with the petri dishes? Did they test those? I think it's pretty unsurprising that there were virus particles on the mask after someone coughed in it. I don't know if that says anything about whether a mask protects other people from the particles.

Just went back and looked and saw that they did test the petri dishes so we do know that it's probably not safe to stand 20 cm from someone even if they are wearing a mask. Actually looking at it again, does it seem to say that there was less growth on the petri dish when the patient had a cotton mask on?

 

ETA I keep looking back at that study and it really looks like it actually seems to provide evidence that masks do protect those around from someone with the virus. The amount of virus detected on the petri dish was definitely less with a mask on than without, and it looks like the amount was lower, and even Not Detected on some of the samples when wearing a cotton mask. I may be losing my marbles lol so someone else look at that and correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by TCB
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2 hours ago, dmmetler said:

Does anyone know if face shields would provide a similar level of protection to a cloth mask? I know medical personnel use shields plus N95 masks for close procedures. I'm thinking a clear shield might be a better choice for teaching young children, because they could see my facial expressions and mouth movements. And it wouldn't get damp, etc, the way a cloth mask does, and could be wiped down vs needing to be machine washed/dried. 

I have seen a lot of restaurant workers and store clerks wearing them.  It seems as if it would help contain sneeze spray if someone was sneezing straight ahead.  But, when I have seen people look down, it appears that they are really breathing underneath the shield.  If a properly fitting mask is supposed to be tight across the nose and fit under the chin, then the shields definitely don't do that.  When you see what they look like after someone has worn one for a while, it will make you wonder what the inside of a cloth mask fitting close to your face really looks like (think about what a window  looks like when a kid breathes on the window and smudges their nose all over it).  

They can provide eye protection and it would be easier to see when doing things like getting on an escalator if you find the mask is impacting your peripheral vision a bit.  I have also noticed people touching their face underneath them.  I was even in a store and saw the cashier kept putting a finger in her mouth and picking at her teach underneath the visor (I went to another checkout line.) 

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44 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

KEEP READING. 

"We do not know whether masks shorten the travel distance of droplets during coughing. Further study is needed to recommend whether face masks decrease transmission of virus from asymptomatic individuals or those with suspected COVID-19 who are not coughing."

That's an excellent point.

https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/52/3/177/312528#203384098

Here's an earlier study which measured "normal breathing, deep breathing, turning head side to side, moving head up and down, talking, grimace, bending over and returning to normal breathing. Earlier studies have shown that the protection levels determined using the set of exercises included in the OSHA protocol highly correlated with the actual exposures from a simulated health-care workplace study."

For reference, the size of of the COVID-19 particles are 0.12 μm.

Conclusion: "Most of the tested N95 respirators and surgical masks in this study were observed to perform at their worst against particles approximately between 0.04 and 0.2 μm, which includes the sizes of coronavirus and influenza virus. The tested N95 respirators provided about 8–12 times better protection than the surgical masks..."

The above study is for N95 respirators and surgical masks and not homemade cloth masks.

So my tone is clear, I'm offering this for further information and not to be argumentative. :)

(Edited because I left out the link to the study.)

Edited by Skippy
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25 minutes ago, TCB said:

That was interesting, however the discussion below the initial study seemed to raise a number of questions about the conclusion they reached. I don't know if I missed it but what was the deal with the petri dishes? Did they test those? I think it's pretty unsurprising that there were virus particles on the mask after someone coughed in it. I don't know if that says anything about whether a mask protects other people from the particles.

Just went back and looked and saw that they did test the petri dishes so we do know that it's probably not safe to stand 20 cm from someone even if they are wearing a mask. Actually looking at it again, does it seem to say that there was less growth on the petri dish when the patient had a cotton mask on?

 

ETA I keep looking back at that study and it really looks like it actually seems to provide evidence that masks do protect those around from someone with the virus. The amount of virus detected on the petri dish was definitely less with a mask on than without, and it looks like the amount was lower, and even Not Detected on some of the samples when wearing a cotton mask. I may be losing my marbles lol so someone else look at that and correct me if I'm wrong.

I also find it extremely interesting that there was virus detected on the outside surfaces of the mask in all cases, but in three-fourths of the cases (surgical and cloth), none was detected for the inner surfaces of the masks. I hope that they continue to do more tests like this.

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18 minutes ago, Skippy said:

That's an excellent point.

https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/52/3/177/312528#203384098

Here's an earlier study which measured "normal breathing, deep breathing, turning head side to side, moving head up and down, talking, grimace, bending over and returning to normal breathing. Earlier studies have shown that the protection levels determined using the set of exercises included in the OSHA protocol highly correlated with the actual exposures from a simulated health-care workplace study."

For reference, the size of of the COVID-19 particles are 0.12 μm.

Conclusion: "Most of the tested N95 respirators and surgical masks in this study were observed to perform at their worst against particles approximately between 0.04 and 0.2 μm, which includes the sizes of coronavirus and influenza virus. The tested N95 respirators provided about 8–12 times better protection than the surgical masks..."

The above study is for N95 respirators and surgical masks and not homemade cloth masks.

So my tone is clear, I'm offering this for further information and not to be argumentative. :)

(Edited because I left out the link to the study.)

 

Understood. All masks, regardless of their type, need to be fitted to be effective in any way. I find talk of thin bandanas and draped scarves on bearded people annoying for that reason. Haphazardly draping a cloth somewhere near the source of possible contagion is ineffective at best, useless as worst. If one were using that info on N95s as definitive, you'd expect to see HCW dropping like flies when, in actuality, their likelihood of catching the disease despite higher viral loads is lower.

Edited by Sneezyone
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53 minutes ago, Skippy said:

That's an excellent point.

https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/52/3/177/312528#203384098

Here's an earlier study which measured "normal breathing, deep breathing, turning head side to side, moving head up and down, talking, grimace, bending over and returning to normal breathing. Earlier studies have shown that the protection levels determined using the set of exercises included in the OSHA protocol highly correlated with the actual exposures from a simulated health-care workplace study."

For reference, the size of of the COVID-19 particles are 0.12 μm.

Conclusion: "Most of the tested N95 respirators and surgical masks in this study were observed to perform at their worst against particles approximately between 0.04 and 0.2 μm, which includes the sizes of coronavirus and influenza virus. The tested N95 respirators provided about 8–12 times better protection than the surgical masks..."

The above study is for N95 respirators and surgical masks and not homemade cloth masks.

So my tone is clear, I'm offering this for further information and not to be argumentative. 🙂

(Edited because I left out the link to the study.)

Right, but that again is for protecting the wearer, which no one is really claiming for homemade masks. 

And we do know that despite what that says, mask wearing does lower flu transmission. 

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

 

KEEP READING. 

"We do not know whether masks shorten the travel distance of droplets during coughing. Further study is needed to recommend whether face masks decrease transmission of virus from asymptomatic individuals or those with suspected COVID-19 who are not coughing."

Which is actually the whole freaking point. Soo....if they don't know that, than the whole thing is pretty useless. 

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4 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

I don't want my kids to be shy around people because they look different either. But I think it is entirely normal for kids (and adults for that matter) to be wary of people whose facial expressions you can't see and/or read accurately and who they can't have a normal social interaction with because of the difficulties of communication that the masks impose. And I would hate for my kids to have to adapt and think of that type of non-interaction as "normal" when it's not and shouldn't be.

It's not racially motivated and it's not "other-ing" people to want to be able to genuinely communicate with people in public. Other cultures are more reserved than Americans when it comes to that type of thing, and that's fine. But it is at least somewhat uniquely American to be friendly and interactive with strangers in public and I don't want us to lose that. I feel the loss already myself when I'm out and about in my mask, and I am much less likely to initiate friendly conversations in public, even from a good social distance. Other people are less likely too, from what I have experienced. It contributes to the sense of isolation I feel and it's not a good place to be mental-health wise, for me or for my kids.

It's about the communication aspect of it, not the looks of it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/photos-from-the-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic/

As American as Baseball...   masks during 1917-1920 Influenza:

Major League Baseball

players and also fans watching are masked:

Unident. baseball players, one batting & one catch

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14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Which is actually the whole freaking point. Soo....if they don't know that, than the whole thing is pretty useless. 

I can't really agree with this conclusion regarding it being useless, although I respect your opinion that it is. I think that all study of this type is useful, and adds to our knowledge base. I hope they do much, much more of it. Also, this tends to be a really emotional topic right now more than just a scientific one, and I get that. 

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5 hours ago, JanOH said:

Comparing my grocery shopping this morning with the same stores as last week, I'll say that people in my area think the threat is over and they are just going to go back to normal.  Last week, same time, same stores, I'd say 90% of the people I encountered were masked.  This morning, maybe 50% and that may be over-estimating.  I literally also had to back away from other customers who were invading my personal space and even employees.  It's like everyone decided that the Memorial Day holiday had magically made Covid-19 disappear.  I may have to go back to my online ordering routine.  I so enjoyed actually going to a store last week but last week I felt like everyone was being very careful - not this week.  

Our county cases have doubled in the past few weeks.  Those numbers aren't large but we are rural so I've just been watching the local trends.  One plant in the area had a breakout which changed our numbers.  It seems people aren't paying attention any more though.  The next few weeks will be interesting to watch.  Hopefully, the virus is in small enough numbers that we won't continue to see increasing numbers.  I'm a bit nervous this week because my 18yods starting work at our local Amazon Warehouse where there have been employees test positive but he needed a summer job.  He's being careful and showering after his shifts but if the numbers keep increasing our family is going to be more exposed than we were before 😞

 

Jan, are you in OH? I was concerned when they said the R0 is over one in a couple of local counties now.

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@Momto6inIN

I would be wary of much communication with you or anyone at this time with both of us masked if indoors, not because of the mask but because my goal is to be in and out of necessary essential errands as quickly as possible and with as little interaction as possible.  The reason is the virus, not the mask.

If I encountered you in an indoors location and you were unmasked, I would be even more wanting to distance from you and not communicate with you in person. At. All. Again due to the virus.

If I encountered you outdoors and we were both masked and distanced, then I would be happy to communicate in a friendly manner.  

Again, for me the issue is the virus. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Skippy said:

I can't really agree with this conclusion regarding it being useless, although I respect your opinion that it is. I think that all study of this type is useful, and adds to our knowledge base. I hope they do much, much more of it. Also, this tends to be a really emotional topic right now more than just a scientific one, and I get that. 

That was more of just my frustration, I know. But gee, don't put your nose right up to the outside of someone's mask while they are actively coughing. Ok. Um, wasn't gonna do that anyway, lol. 

For the general public what we need to know is exactly what they said they didn't test - if it helps reduce the distance the virus travels when someone coughs, and if it recduces spread via non coughing activities. 

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A Novel virus is of course different than anything we have seen before.

But clearly we have used things like cloth drapes during surgical procedures to maintain more cleanliness / less infection.  That is not a new idea.

And clearly even before modern materials like N95 masks were available, coverings were thought to do some good in reducing infection from respiratory conditions as well.

I would prefer to err on that side while we figure out if it helps for certain and in what situations. 

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

That was more of just my frustration, I know. But gee, don't put your nose right up to the outside of someone's mask while they are actively coughing. Ok. Um, wasn't gonna do that anyway, lol. 

For the general public what we need to know is exactly what they said they didn't test - if it helps reduce the distance the virus travels when someone coughs, and if it recduces spread via non coughing activities. 

 

I have a feeling that a fairly simple homeschool experiment might show that there would be some reduction at least in droplets, and reduction is helpful even if it is not perfect because it seems to take a certain amount of virus to get sick for most people.

Perhaps having some bright colored substance spread in one’s mouth that comes out with droplets, and cough with a large white paper underneath one with various types of masks  on and with mask off to get comparison to see if droplets reduce.

And trying to blow out a candle with masks on versus mask off. 

Etc.

I am sure you can think of others.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, kand said:

 Sharing this particular study is the kind of thing that has made me ask in the past whether people even want masks to be effective.

But I was supplying information to someone who specifically asked for studies that indicated that masks weren't effective. 

I would rather know the truth than win the argument, but I understand why you would think that.

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38 minutes ago, kand said:

Where is MythBusters when you need it?!

 

Personally, I’ll go with this film until someone proves it is wrong to me. 

 

Which is to say, an ordinary cloth mask won’t solve the problem to keep me safe. 

But it it is possible to make one that might.

And a mask on the person breathing out, or coughing or sneezing or talking would help a lot even if ordinary type.

so my mask protects you and yours protects me seems to have some correct ness from this report and from the Hamster study.

 

 

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3084779/coronavirus-hamster-research-proof-effectiveness

Edited by Pen
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23 minutes ago, Skippy said:

But I was supplying information to someone who specifically asked for studies that indicated that masks weren't effective. 

I would rather know the truth than win the argument, but I understand why you would think that.

I appreciate you putting it on here so we can look at it! I really appreciate being able to look at all the information/evidence on either side of the argument.

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3 minutes ago, TCB said:

I appreciate you putting it on here so we can look at it! I really appreciate being able to look at all the information/evidence on either side of the argument.

I really appreciate you saying this! It's actually pretty hard to find many formal studies that prove that cloth masks are effective in the way that they're being used today. That does not prove at all that this means that they're not, but there hasn't been much time for investigation on this particular question. I imagine this will change soon though.

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1 hour ago, kand said:

I feel the loss of communication as well, and that’s perhaps my most disliked part of it. I strongly disagree that it’s “uniquely American to be friendly and interact with strangers”, though.  There are a lot of cultures in the world that are far, far friendlier than ours typically is. I might even hazard that the US is on the lower side of the range of typical amounts of communication by people in public. Even within America, it varies widely from location to location how interactive and outgoing people are with others in public. 
 

Well, I did say "somewhat uniquely" 😉And I totally did not mean that people from other cultures are UNfriendly.

I'm no world traveller, so I could be totally wrong. But many of my fellow Midwesterners who are have told stories about how surprised people in other countries seem to be when they strike up random conversations in public with strangers and smile and make eye contact and say hi and other inane random pleasantries walking down the street. I've heard several foreign exchange students here express that same surprise. *shrug* So I thought it was a thing. 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

@Momto6inIN

I would be wary of much communication with you or anyone at this time with both of us masked if indoors, not because of the mask but because my goal is to be in and out of necessary essential errands as quickly as possible and with as little interaction as possible.  The reason is the virus, not the mask.

If I encountered you in an indoors location and you were unmasked, I would be even more wanting to distance from you and not communicate with you in person. At. All. Again due to the virus.

If I encountered you outdoors and we were both masked and distanced, then I would be happy to communicate in a friendly manner.  

Again, for me the issue is the virus. 

 

This makes me sad. I don't want to lose those types of interactions, indoor or outdoor. I realize not everyone feels the same way.

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7 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

This makes me sad. I don't want to lose those types of interactions, indoor or outdoor. I realize not everyone feels the same way.

 

I don’t **want** to lose them either, but my desire not to get the virus is greater than my desire to interact with people in circumstances that seem relatively risky. 

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From same CBS link as the baseball picture:

 

 

"Better be ridiculous than dead"

During the 1918 pandemic, the New York Health Board's stance regarding wearing masks was: "Better be ridiculous than dead."

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8 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

This makes me sad. I don't want to lose those types of interactions, indoor or outdoor. I realize not everyone feels the same way.

 

8 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t **want** to lose them either, but my desire not to get the virus is greater than my desire to interact with people in circumstances that seem relatively risky. 

Around here loss of those little types of communications were one of the first signs that people were taking the pandemic seriously. I live in a place where people will stop and chit chat with strangers at the drop of a hat. But by late February/early March almost all of that had stopped. In the grocery store people were all business--get my stuff and get out. Like I said, it's the first significant widespread change I noticed. I don't like the loss of it either, but it's necessary. And it seems to me that wearing masks is one of the easiest things (along with maintaining distance and good hand hygiene) we can do that may get us back to normal as quickly as possible. So being against masks for this reason seems to me to be a cutting-off-ones-nose-to-spite-ones-face thing. It makes no sense when taking the long view.

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17 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

Around here loss of those little types of communications were one of the first signs that people were taking the pandemic seriously. I live in a place where people will stop and chit chat with strangers at the drop of a hat. But by late February/early March almost all of that had stopped. In the grocery store people were all business--get my stuff and get out. Like I said, it's the first significant widespread change I noticed. I don't like the loss of it either, but it's necessary. And it seems to me that wearing masks is one of the easiest things (along with maintaining distance and good hand hygiene) we can do that may get us back to normal as quickly as possible. So being against masks for this reason seems to me to be a cutting-off-ones-nose-to-spite-ones-face thing. It makes no sense when taking the long view.

Grocery store chitchat is not something I see much here at any time - people tend to be more about getting the shopping done.  However, I've seen an increase in communication in other settings during lockdown: we are allowed to go out to exercise every day, and we have all got to know our neighbours much better, I think.  We stand on opposite sides of the village roads and chat.

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8 hours ago, Pen said:

From same CBS link as the baseball picture:

 

 

"Better be ridiculous than dead"

During the 1918 pandemic, the New York Health Board's stance regarding wearing masks was: "Better be ridiculous than dead."

That literally should be my motto. I should print it on a shirt. 

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23 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Grocery store chitchat is not something I see much here at any time - people tend to be more about getting the shopping done.  However, I've seen an increase in communication in other settings during lockdown: we are allowed to go out to exercise every day, and we have all got to know our neighbours much better, I think.  We stand on opposite sides of the village roads and chat.

I'm seeing (and experiencing) more of the neighbor talk, too. But that's between people who at least kinda sorta know each other, at least by sight. But the random little chats in stores . . no, that's not happening and it's not because of mask wearing. It stopped weeks before masks became normalized here.

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2 hours ago, cintinative said:

He mentioned Hamilton and Butler which is Cincinnati and northern suburbs.  

I missed his press conference yesterday, so hadn't heard that information.  It's concerning.

I'm actually really disappointed that Ohio isn't showing the improvement that other states are.  I read an article yesterday showing that Ohio was not meeting 4 out of 5 parameters for successful reopening.  It was one of the 17 states showing "Little Progress" in achieving the goals of testing, etc.  All of the states surrounding Ohio were showing Some Progress or Strong Progress.  I just don't understand it.  DeWine acted very proactively IMO.  He shut things down quickly.  He understands the need for testing, etc.  We have some innovative companies here and some major universities and hospital systems.  Yet, we aren't doing well.  I just don't get it.  

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5 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Ohio never got bad to begin with, especially with community spread, except up by Cleveland and even that was still pretty mild. So the trickle of cases has continued and there was never an enormous curve to flatten.  It’s just drip drip drip and that’s not terrible, given the population size and things reopening now.  

Yeah, I’m confused when I keep seeing Ohio mentioned here like it’s bad there. Ohio is about double the population of us here in Indiana but our numbers are pretty much the same. So, Indiana I guess should be considered doing really awful but we’re already on phase 3 of reopening and people here act like everything is fine.

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15 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

This makes me sad. I don't want to lose those types of interactions, indoor or outdoor. I realize not everyone feels the same way.

 

14 hours ago, Pen said:

I don’t **want** to lose them either, but my desire not to get the virus is greater than my desire to interact with people in circumstances that seem relatively risky. 

 

6 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Around here loss of those little types of communications were one of the first signs that people were taking the pandemic seriously. I live in a place where people will stop and chit chat with strangers at the drop of a hat. But by late February/early March almost all of that had stopped. In the grocery store people were all business--get my stuff and get out. Like I said, it's the first significant widespread change I noticed. I don't like the loss of it either, but it's necessary. And it seems to me that wearing masks is one of the easiest things (along with maintaining distance and good hand hygiene) we can do that may get us back to normal as quickly as possible. So being against masks for this reason seems to me to be a cutting-off-ones-nose-to-spite-ones-face thing. It makes no sense when taking the long view.

I understand it is necessary, and I wear a mask when in stores, but I am wondering how this all is going to affect the fabric of human interaction on a fundamental level, if we are beginning to see every fellow human as a threat. Without the dozens of little daily interactions with acquaintances, colleagues, and strangers, I feel a loss of community. I also observe a decrease in online interactions because everybody is tired of screens and stressed.
Throughout the isolation, I have never seen the increased interactions and strengthening of community that some of you here report; everybody in my circle has been desperately trying to cope with their stress (which included being drowned in work), online socializing was infrequent, and almost nobody had any leftover capacity to reach out individually. At the beginning, it was an exciting event to see a neighbor across the street; now it feels everybody has gotten used to the situation. It's very lonely, and as people are adapting to the loneliness, I wonder what that means for community in the long term. It's not fun to live among other humans anymore, when most joint experiences are too risky . This goes so fundamentally against human nature that I wonder what lasting effects will come of it.

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My husband got a call from his  boss yesterday.  He wants dh to come back to the office.  😞  Dh is pretty stressed about it, but he got up and left the house at 7 this morning.  Dh is the last employee to return to the office.

My boss called me last week with the same. He's willing to wait until June 8 when our preferred childcare camp opens locally.

And yes I'm the last. I'm not that stressed though. People are wearing masks in the office I discovered. (was there for a meeting last Friday)

And I talked to the owner of the company so I think being back home intermittently in the future will be fine -- they just want me in the office for a new supervisor/new mail program they are loading and my boss feels better scheduling meetings when I'm there than ahead of time for me to plan to be there.

 

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11 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

My boss called me last week with the same. He's willing to wait until June 8 when our preferred childcare camp opens locally.

And yes I'm the last. I'm not that stressed though. People are wearing masks in the office I discovered. (was there for a meeting last Friday)

And I talked to the owner of the company so I think being back home intermittently in the future will be fine -- they just want me in the office for a new supervisor/new mail program they are loading and my boss feels better scheduling meetings when I'm there than ahead of time for me to plan to be there.

 

I was talking to someone who is working in an office setting. The workers are wearing medallions around their neck that begin buzzing if it gets within a certain distance (perhaps 6 feet) of another medallion to help people remember to social distance.  Has anyone else heard of those?

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5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I was talking to someone who is working in an office setting. The workers are wearing medallions around their neck that begin buzzing if it gets within a certain distance (perhaps 6 feet) of another medallion to help people remember to social distance.  Has anyone else heard of those?

No but I love this idea! 

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5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

No but I love this idea! 

 

10 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I was talking to someone who is working in an office setting. The workers are wearing medallions around their neck that begin buzzing if it gets within a certain distance (perhaps 6 feet) of another medallion to help people remember to social distance.  Has anyone else heard of those?

https://www.social-distancing-contact-tracing.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjw5cL2BRASEiwAENqAPkKiieQqdUNxITHJmMe4ndZKXQ3hDT_rg_e-JIgeFi5MRja_4snfSBoCh5AQAvD_BwE

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59 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 

 

I understand it is necessary, and I wear a mask when in stores, but I am wondering how this all is going to affect the fabric of human interaction on a fundamental level, if we are beginning to see every fellow human as a threat. Without the dozens of little daily interactions with acquaintances, colleagues, and strangers, I feel a loss of community. I also observe a decrease in online interactions because everybody is tired of screens and stressed.
Throughout the isolation, I have never seen the increased interactions and strengthening of community that some of you here report; everybody in my circle has been desperately trying to cope with their stress, online socializing was infrequent, and almost nobody had any leftover capacity to reach out individually. At the beginning, it was an exciting event to see a neighbor across the street; now it feels everybody has gotten used to the situation. It's very lonely, and as people are adapting to the loneliness, I wonder what that means for community in the long term. It's not fun to live among other humans anymore, when most joint experiences are too risky . This goes so fundamentally against human nature that I wonder what lasting effects will come of it.

I have wondered some of the same things.  And, I have wondered if it will impact certain age groups more than others.  I have also found it interesting that some countries that are being held up as examples of cultures accepting masking are also countries known for public baths.  The nudity of the public baths that many Americans find shocking has been claimed to have public health benefits in that individuals can't hide disease or health problems.  

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

 

I understand it is necessary, and I wear a mask when in stores, but I am wondering how this all is going to affect the fabric of human interaction on a fundamental level, if we are beginning to see every fellow human as a threat. Without the dozens of little daily interactions with acquaintances, colleagues, and strangers, I feel a loss of community. I also observe a decrease in online interactions because everybody is tired of screens and stressed.
Throughout the isolation, I have never seen the increased interactions and strengthening of community that some of you here report; everybody in my circle has been desperately trying to cope with their stress, online socializing was infrequent, and almost nobody had any leftover capacity to reach out individually. At the beginning, it was an exciting event to see a neighbor across the street; now it feels everybody has gotten used to the situation. It's very lonely, and as people are adapting to the loneliness, I wonder what that means for community in the long term. It's not fun to live among other humans anymore, when most joint experiences are too risky . This goes so fundamentally against human nature that I wonder what lasting effects will come of it.

 

I think people tend to have circles somewhat like themselves.  And also that emotions are contagious. 

 

***If*** it ends up looking like both sides of interactions masking does help prevent transmission, for example if the hair stylist who worked while sick but with mask on did not infect anyone, then I think people like myself who are currently not in chatting indoors with strangers mode will start to feel more comfortable lingering a little and chatting so long as all are masked. 

 

I think some people are worried about other things, like possibility that the virus is not a normal virus and won’t be something that can be gotten over as “easily” as the 1917-20 influenza pandemic...from which, though it lasted years, the social fabric did “recover”.  

 

For  example, there are concerns that SARS2 may harbor some HIV-like aspects, and not be at all a “normal” respiratory illness where most people will get it and recover fully, but instead may cause later problems for those who have had “mild” or “Asymptomatic” infection. 

Edited by Pen
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2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

  The nudity of the public baths that many Americans find shocking has been claimed to have public health benefits in that individuals can't hide disease or health problems.  

Fascinating thought. In my home country, we have nude pools (normal community pools), and the etiquette dictates that you make sure NOT to look at other peoples' bodies. S I wonder how this effect would come to be.

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5 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think people tend to have circles somewhat like themselves.  And also that emotions are contagious. 

I do not understand what you are getting at with this response and what emotions you are referring to. (As an aside, emotions can only be contagious if people are actually interacting)

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

 

I understand it is necessary, and I wear a mask when in stores, but I am wondering how this all is going to affect the fabric of human interaction on a fundamental level, if we are beginning to see every fellow human as a threat. Without the dozens of little daily interactions with acquaintances, colleagues, and strangers, I feel a loss of community. I also observe a decrease in online interactions because everybody is tired of screens and stressed.
Throughout the isolation, I have never seen the increased interactions and strengthening of community that some of you here report; everybody in my circle has been desperately trying to cope with their stress (which included being drowned in work), online socializing was infrequent, and almost nobody had any leftover capacity to reach out individually. At the beginning, it was an exciting event to see a neighbor across the street; now it feels everybody has gotten used to the situation. It's very lonely, and as people are adapting to the loneliness, I wonder what that means for community in the long term. It's not fun to live among other humans anymore, when most joint experiences are too risky . This goes so fundamentally against human nature that I wonder what lasting effects will come of it.

I don't understand this.  I can laugh and chat and share with people with a mask on.  The only change is that I might have to enunciate more clearly and if someone was hard of hearing then that would be a problem.  But to connect with people?  I still see people.  I can hear the emotion in their voice.  I can respond to their words.  I can see the crinkle of their eyes in laughter or the tear drop in sadness.  I see the virus as a threat, not people (though I do joke about people being Virus Vectors). 

I understand that doing things virtually has made things a lot busier for my friends who are college professors.  But they are coping well. 

I know people like my Mom95 who are much more isolated than I am from other people due to being in lockdown in their facilities.  But they aren't emotionally isolated.  They have people (like me and my siblings) who are reaching out to them.  They are looking for ways to cope and aren't wringing their hands in frustration.  (This isn't directed specifically at you but people can frame even the negative circumstances they find themselves in so that they can not only cope but can even thrive.) 

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25 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I do not understand what you are getting at with this response and what emotions you are referring to. (As an aside, emotions can only be contagious if people are actually interacting)

 

 

Quote

everybody in my circle has been desperately trying to cope with their stress

 

 

You said people in your circle and described how they are feeling.  I believe you. 

But that isn’t true for everybody I know (or even most people I know). It is not a universal.  

 

And that very “everyone” followed by a bleak description is itself the way people tend to see the world when feeling depressed. 

 

Quote

and almost nobody had any leftover capacity to reach out individually.

 

 

Quote

It's very lonely, and as people are adapting to the loneliness,

 

Some people, may be not anyone you know, but some,  are reaching out to others. 

At least by telephone. 

 

 

What you teport is not true for all “circles”...

your “everyone” is just a subset of people.

Some circles are attending car rallies in Bay Area.  Some “circles” were recently partying at Lake of the Ozarks.

Some “circles” are gardening. 

Some “circles” are cooking.

Some “circles” are teaching their kids to ride a bike. 

 

Some “circles” are tending to their farms. 

Many things besides online teaching and whatever your circle is doing. 

 

As to contagious emotions

 

I think people even right here on Wtm can sometimes bring a downer emotion that can be contagious. It does not take physical up close interaction.

 

Or people may feel depressed because of friend with a terrible family situation, or a suicidal friend, etc, even if not in physical contact.  Even just from knowing it is going on. 

 

And what Jean wrote above. 

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26 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don't understand this.  I can laugh and chat and share with people with a mask on.  The only change is that I might have to enunciate more clearly and if someone was hard of hearing then that would be a problem.  But to connect with people?  I still see people.  I can hear the emotion in their voice.  I can respond to their words.  I can see the crinkle of their eyes in laughter or the tear drop in sadness.  I see the virus as a threat, not people (though I do joke about people being Virus Vectors). 

I understand that doing things virtually has made things a lot busier for my friends who are college professors.  But they are coping well. 

Where do you see all those people to laugh and chat with? I find, as others reported, that people keep their errands brief and don't stop to chat. Many people still actively limit in person interaction and stay home. Some refuse distanced outdoor get togethers. Of the various group activities I am involved in, our women's circle no longer meets because people are not comfortable, choir of course is suspended indefinitely (and after one zoom chat, nobody felt the desire to get together again), book club is virtual. Everybody works from home, which eliminates all the casual interactions that happen during a normal workday. We are just allowed to return to the offices, but aren't allowed to enter the department office to chat because you can't distance enough from the secretaries. 

As for the college professors: the stress level is bizarre. Many who are not tenured are worried about being fired, as we prepare for massive cuts. We have to prepare plans to teach in person in the fall with rooms filled to 25% capacity but obviously have neither  4x as many rooms nor 4x as many instructors and are wracking our brains trying to solve an unsolvable problem. I am not sure what "coping well" means for your friends. I have never worked as hard in my life than in the past semester, and many of my colleagues report the same.

Edited by regentrude
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I visit my mom weekly and we distance outdoors.

I see many friend groups meeting in large parking lots around here and they just bring their own chairs and space themselves.

I’ve met many neighbors I didn’t know before when dh and I go on walks and we chat from opposite sides of the street.

In none of these instances is anyone wearing a mask since everyone is outdoors and keeping a good distance from each other. My social media friends seem to all be doing the same in other states. I just assumed most had been able to find ways to socialize. 

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21 minutes ago, Pen said:

You said people in your circle and described how they are feeling.  I believe you. 

But that isn’t true for everybody I know (or even most people I know). It is not a universal.  

And that very “everyone” followed by a bleak description is itself the way people tend to see the world when feeling depressed. 

Some people, may be not anyone you know, but some,  are reaching out to others. 

At least by telephone. 

What you teport is not true for all “circles”...

your “everyone” is just a subset of people.

 I was reporting what my personal experience is, as I made repeatedly clear by writing "I observed", "I have seen".

It is wonderful to see that other people reach out and commune and have capacity to call their friends. Almost every single interaction I have, I had to initiate myself. Since I  do not believe people are actively shunning, excluding, or ignoring me, I can only ascribe it to them being too busy or wrapped up in their own affairs. 

And I notice that the initial excitement about getting together online or, recently, distanced outside, has greatly waned, and the once weekly virtual happy hour quietly went away with nobody having enough desire or energy to revive it. A distanced outdoor backyard gathering "series" was abandoned after the first try. Observing those facts does not make me depressed.

Edited by regentrude
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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

 

I understand it is necessary, and I wear a mask when in stores, but I am wondering how this all is going to affect the fabric of human interaction on a fundamental level, if we are beginning to see every fellow human as a threat. Without the dozens of little daily interactions with acquaintances, colleagues, and strangers, I feel a loss of community. I also observe a decrease in online interactions because everybody is tired of screens and stressed.
Throughout the isolation, I have never seen the increased interactions and strengthening of community that some of you here report; everybody in my circle has been desperately trying to cope with their stress (which included being drowned in work), online socializing was infrequent, and almost nobody had any leftover capacity to reach out individually. At the beginning, it was an exciting event to see a neighbor across the street; now it feels everybody has gotten used to the situation. It's very lonely, and as people are adapting to the loneliness, I wonder what that means for community in the long term. It's not fun to live among other humans anymore, when most joint experiences are too risky . This goes so fundamentally against human nature that I wonder what lasting effects will come of it.

Ad usual, regentrude is more eloquent than me. But this is what I fear too. I still have people reaching out and our church family has somewhat maintained a feeling of community, although skewed because it's all virtual. But it's not the same. And it's not good.

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8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Where do you see all those people to laugh and chat with? I find, as others reported, that people keep their errands brief and don't stop to chat. Many people still actively limit in person interaction and stay home. Of the various group activities I am involved in, our women's circle no longer meets because people are not comfortable, choir of course is suspended indefinitely (and after one zoom chat, nobody felt the desire to get together again), book club is virtual. Everybody works from home, which eliminates all the casual interactions that happen during a normal workday. We are just allowed to return to the offices, but aren't allowed to enter the department office to chat because you can't distance enough from the secretaries. 

As for the college professors: the stress level is bizarre. Many who are not tenured are worried about being fired, as we prepare for massive cuts. We have to prepare plans to teach in person in the fall with rooms filled to 25% capacity but obviously have neither  4x as many rooms nor 4x as many instructors and are wracking our brains trying to solve an unsolvable problem. I am not sure what "coping well" means for your friends. I have never worked as hard in my life than in the past semester, and many of my colleagues report the same.

I know people in my community.   I stop to talk to them when I see them in their yards and I'm walking the dog.  Or we both stop while we are both walking our dogs.  I go on masked walks with friends.  I talk to people I know in the grocery store.  Some interactions are brief, some are longer (as they always have been in that setting.)  I chat with those who I meet with for healthcare during my in person treatments.  We are all masked.  We are all six feet apart (except for some medical treatments but since those tend to be for my back, we aren't face to face but they are facing my back).  We can hear each other just fine without talking too loudly. 

Most longer intimate conversations are on walks or on the phone but that's more a product of busy schedules.

One of my college professor friends is a department chair.  She's working particularly hard to set things up for all the professors in her department but her report is that the most work was in the first month.  Coping well means that she, and others (who are not department chairs but are still busy) are working hard, have a sense of humor, are making adjustments without more than the occasional vent. 

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