The second dumb thing we have done in the pandemic

[Teaching3bears]

The first dumb thing we did was not shut down soon enough.  We could have prevented a lot of spreading and a lot of deaths if we had.  If we could only turn back time.



The second dumb thing we did was to open too early.  I understand that some of this was necessary for economic reasons and businesses are taking precautions but it has not just been businesses that might go bankrupt that have been opening up.  In general, I think that people have been given the message that this thing is almost over and that we are easing back into our previous society.  In my area there were less than  5 cases when everything closed.  Last week there were record high cases and they still decided to open some things up.  It is not the things they opened up that concerns me but the message of this being over.  The park was more full of people than I have ever seen it, the streets are full of cars, bigger lineups for stores, more traffic in the road even though people are still working from home,  my neighbours are having get-togethers.  The flat curve is going to go up again and this time, especially with summer coming, nobody is going to want to go back inside and people will want to travel again.  



Big mistake!  I think if we had waited A few more weeks we might have seen the numbers go down to zero.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Teaching3bears
Clarity

[Selkie]

Same thing is happening here. People are acting like it is all over, even though cases and deaths are going up and up.

[*****]

Teaching3, can you edit your title to add covid or something so others will know what your topic relates to?  When you said 'we', I thought you meant your family.  I think it is a topic worth others weighing in on if it relates more...

In a local area, they had about 13 cases before moving on to phase 2. The move was made to allow for opening for Memorial Day weekend, IMO. Guess what was announced the morning after easing restrictions? 31 new cases, 20 of which are being said to belong to a single outbreak (factory). It sounds fishy to me, as if the announcement of 31 cases was purposely not reported until the county opened up. And now they are downplaying it by saying the 20 belong to a single outbreak, as if the single means only 1 person.  The news is reporting with full confidence that the workers will self quarantine and others who could have been infected have been notified. They are downplaying this so much. What about all the places these people have visited before showing symptoms with the possibility of infecting others? Seems the rules change for the powers that be, wth?!

[Carrie12345]

I no longer feel like I have a good handle on “what should have been”.  I mean, I guess I still feel strongly about the theory, but the practice is a whole other thing.

My household has spent weeks and weeks talking about “the right thing” and the actions of others, but 2.5 out of the 6 of us (out of 7 if you count the kid in another state) have definitely hit quarantine fatigue.  Over the past few days, we’ve had a lot of difficulty trying to stay on the same page.  As a household that had been holding fast and strong, and seeing that get shaky, I do not imagine all that many would accept longer periods.

Our immediate area hasn’t had group protests or anything like that, but people have been making their own rules for quite a while now.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

The first dumb thing we did was not shut down soon enough.  We could have prevented a lot of spreading and a lot of deaths if we had.  If we could only turn back time.



The second dumb thing we did was to open too early.  I understand that some of this was necessary for economic reasons and businesses are taking precautions but it has not just been businesses that might go bankrupt that have been opening up.  In general, I think that people have been given the message that this thing is almost over and that we are easing back into our previous society.  In my area there were less than  5 cases when everything closed.  Last week there were record high cases and they still decided to open some things up.  It is not the things they opened up that concerns me but the message of this being over.  The park was more full of people than I have ever seen it, the streets are full of cars, bigger lineups for stores, more traffic in the road even though people are still working from home,  my neighbours are having get-togethers.  The flat curve is going to go up again and this time, especially with summer coming, nobody is going to want to go back inside and people will want to travel again.  



Big mistake!  I think if we had waited A few more weeks we might have seen the numbers go down to zero.

I agree. In my family there have already been multiple incidents of A Person wanting to stop doing a precaution and citing as their reason, “things are opening back up.” Well I don’t care if things are opening back up or not; that’s not how I make my decisions. 

I’m reading the book The Great Influenza right now. One thing that’s absolutely chilling are reports of how newspapers or government authorities concealed, lied or whitewashed the facts about the flu pandemic of 1918 because they were concerned it would “hurt morale”. People went to the Liberty Bond parade with no idea civilians were getting this strain of the flu. There was a newspaper (in Philadelphia, I think) that kept printing “we have reached the peak”, even as the next day there would be more deaths and that number would double, triple, quadruple. People didn’t grasp the reality of the situation until the morgues had bodies stacked “like cordwood” and there were no more coffins for burying the dead. 

It makes me happy that at least in 2020, we have more access to information; we are less dependent on whatever the local newspaper says. Yet, strangely, some people still want to only listen to what the equivalent of a local newspaper is today. They only want to listen to their favorite opinion show talking heads. Voluntary ignorance. 

[Ausmumof3]

Same thing here I think.  Well we still have really low cases.  It’s just I think once we’ve opened if cases do start skyrocketing there’s no way we close again.  Contact tracing is working so let’s hope it keeps working.  I think there’s been a shift from people being paranoid and going over above toward people not worrying at all.
 

I must admit to having isolation fatigue this week.  I’ve been enjoying the quiet but this week I’m starting to feel it.  

[happi duck]

I'm frustrated with how many people seem to think that this is something they can just *decide* to be done with. 

 

[cintinative]

@Teaching3bears do you mind sharing what region of the US you live in?
 

I am seeing this a bit too--people declaring they are "done" with social distancing, stores seem crowded, etc. but I am not sure yet how prevalent this idea is. I try to remember that sometimes the most vocal people on FB don't represent the majority. I am concerned though.

[Wheres Toto]

13 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

The first dumb thing we did was not shut down soon enough.  We could have prevented a lot of spreading and a lot of deaths if we had.  If we could only turn back time.



The second dumb thing we did was to open too early.  I understand that some of this was necessary for economic reasons and businesses are taking precautions but it has not just been businesses that might go bankrupt that have been opening up.  In general, I think that people have been given the message that this thing is almost over and that we are easing back into our previous society.  In my area there were less than  5 cases when everything closed.  Last week there were record high cases and they still decided to open some things up.  It is not the things they opened up that concerns me but the message of this being over.  The park was more full of people than I have ever seen it, the streets are full of cars, bigger lineups for stores, more traffic in the road even though people are still working from home,  my neighbours are having get-togethers.  The flat curve is going to go up again and this time, especially with summer coming, nobody is going to want to go back inside and people will want to travel again.  



Big mistake!  I think if we had waited A few more weeks we might have seen the numbers go down to zero.

My list of dumb things is slightly different.  Maybe because I'm in a hot spot (NJ).

First, I agree we didn't shut down some areas soon enough.  There were enough signs that this was coming that more could have been done.  

Second, we waited too long to get PPE and testing in place.

Third, we shut down some areas too soon, before they showed any cases.

IMO, we should have done a short shut-down to put PPE and testing in place, then opened up places that testing showed weren't having problems, while continuing shutdowns in problem areas.   Testing should have been ongoing at a high level in ALL areas, so that we could catch outbreaks in new areas quickly and shut down before they became an issue.  This way, places aren't hitting quarantine fatigue before the cases even get to them.   Instead the whole thing was a screw-up and people have had enough and I don't think it's going to end well at all.  

[SereneHome]

I think it doesn't matter at all what we should have done or did or didn't do. US has a very different and unique culture of people. Despite all the "we are this together" commercials and messages from celebrities , I have seen a very divided mindset when it came to this virus. It was either "govt is trying to trick us and equating this to concentration camps" or "anyone who doesn't want shut everything is evil and don't care about human life". Very few people were somewhere in between.

So when you have 300M people pulling in all kinds of different directions - it's hard. Also, it's easy to say  let's treat different places differently, but reality is unless you close borders between states or even within states - it's way too easy to bring virus from hot spots anywhere.

Anyway, it is what it is. I think people will get very relaxed now, with sun out and places opening back up and it won't be until late Sept - Oct when panic will set in again and we will be going back on the same thing we went through in March. I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. I HOPE I am wrong.

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

@Teaching3bears do you mind sharing what region of the US you live in?
 

I am seeing this a bit too--people declaring they are "done" with social distancing, stores seem crowded, etc. but I am not sure yet how prevalent this idea is. I try to remember that sometimes the most vocal people on FB don't represent the majority. I am concerned though.

Not the OP,  but I can tell you that the same thing is happening here in Illinois. Lots of people are acting like the whole thing is over, despite all the evidence to the contrary. The number of cases and deaths in our area is rising rapidly. Yet stores are packed, tons of tourists were here over the weekend, very few people are wearing masks. Local stores are defying the state mandate and allowing their employees to go mask-less. Some people who had been making the effort to shop at our locally owned grocery store and hardware store have now started shopping at Walmart instead, because all the employees there wear masks.

I live close to Iowa and Wisconsin and am hearing the situation is even worse there. In the town where my boys go to college, people wearing masks are being openly mocked.

[Pen]

41 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I think it doesn't matter at all what we should have done or did or didn't do. US has a very different and unique culture of people. Despite all the "we are this together" commercials and messages from celebrities , I have seen a very divided mindset when it came to this virus. It was either "govt is trying to trick us and equating this to concentration camps" or "anyone who doesn't want shut everything is evil and don't care about human life". Very few people were somewhere in between.

So when you have 300M people pulling in all kinds of different directions - it's hard. Also, it's easy to say  let's treat different places differently, but reality is unless you close borders between states or even within states - it's way too easy to bring virus from hot spots anywhere.

Anyway, it is what it is. I think people will get very relaxed now, with sun out and places opening back up and it won't be until late Sept - Oct when panic will set in again and we will be going back on the same thing we went through in March. I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. I HOPE I am wrong.

 

I am not sure.

Locally we had messaging to use Memorial Day to honor the dead. And in our rural area there was only one party I was aware of whereas usually there are many more, both at local homes and people coming out to party and camp in government lands areas. 

 

And there were lots of messages to stay local and support local businesses, but not travel, not go to beach or mountains etc. 

There was intermittent rain which may have helped, but even then partying was way down compared to recent years. And I am very glad of it. 

I have not seen news reports on what actually happened. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Pen

[Joker]

I’ve already posted that things where I live look back to normal. So many people are out and about, packing the stores, and eating in restaurants. I do still see many wearing masks indoors though so hopefully it helps. 

[cintinative]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

We had to do a writing assessment workshop for our fall homeschool extension school this morning,

What homeschool extension school? PM me if you want.  

[Garga]

3 hours ago, Seasider too said:

I think anyone not feeling quarantine fatigue by now can be a certified hermit. 

 

That’s me!  I am missing being out in store (alone), but I am not missing hanging out with other people.  I’m all peopled out due to the fact that my dh is home ALL DAY.  That’s enough people!

Just yesterday I was thinking, “Any day now, my in-laws are going to say, “Why don’t we get together for a backyard cookout,” and I’ll have to die a little inside . I just don’t want to see anyone yet.  

 

I meant to quote, but must not have hit the button right—someone else mentioned that they wanted their family to leave the house so they could finally be alone.  I’ve been feeling that.  My husband and sons went for a walk together yesterday and I had 30 glorious minutes by myself in the house.  I’m also the one who goes shopping every 2 weeks for food, and I love the alone time.  Last week, DH said, “Do you need me to come with you?”  “NO!....er, I mean, No thank you, dear.”

1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

My list of dumb things is slightly different.  Maybe because I'm in a hot spot (NJ).

First, I agree we didn't shut down some areas soon enough.  There were enough signs that this was coming that more could have been done.  

Second, we waited too long to get PPE and testing in place.

Third, we shut down some areas too soon, before they showed any cases.

IMO, we should have done a short shut-down to put PPE and testing in place, then opened up places that testing showed weren't having problems, while continuing shutdowns in problem areas.   Testing should have been ongoing at a high level in ALL areas, so that we could catch outbreaks in new areas quickly and shut down before they became an issue.  This way, places aren't hitting quarantine fatigue before the cases even get to them.   Instead the whole thing was a screw-up and people have had enough and I don't think it's going to end well at all.  

I agree with the above.  A harsh, strong lockdown initially to assess.  Collect the needed supplies, and then open up the areas that could be opened.  I have friends who live in a county with only 3 active cases and they were all just miserable being locked down.  They should have been open.

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Garga

[cintinative]

Just now, Arctic Mama said:

PEP!  Super excited, they just started the Dayton branch and it is perfect for my older kids and where we are at in our lives.  I was planning on doing it all myself at home but we have so many commitments with therapy and such  that the college model is an excellent fit. 

https://www.pep1.org

There is one in Mason and one in Milford, as well as some down in Jacksonville and the new Dayton branch.  And they’re still enrolling for the following year.

I wondered. We did look at PEP, but that's another thread.  God closed the door for us.  A good friend of mine teaches Spanish at the Milford and Mason campuses. If we could afford it, we would go do Spanish there.  She is fantastic. 

[AFwife Claire]

16 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

We had to do a writing assessment workshop for our fall homeschool extension school this morning, and only one family remembered masks.  Many of us intended to but just spaced it.  However it was a big building and the kids were all easily spread out, as were the adults.  ALL of us expressed high levels of quarantine fatigue and loneliness, missing fellowship, kids going stir crazy.  Just getting together for TESTING in the same room was a treat for the kids.  
 

I asked the director about the fall and she said unless there were rules specifically binding private schools, she was planning on the normal two day in person classes, especially as each has less than ten kids to a class.  Lunch could be trickier but we should still be able to spread kids out if need be.  

Ahh, we will finally meet in person then, Lord willing!  We are headed over there this afternoon to do the writing assessment!  

[SereneHome]

44 minutes ago, square_25 said:

And yet the United States has an excellent record of containing pandemics and, in fact, of helping other countries do so. 

I do not believe this was in any way predetermined. This was simply a failure. 

I am not saying US can't handle pandemics. I am saying that people are very very divided and EVERYONE has found something to complain about re: how it was handled, how it is still being handled, what should happen, what shouldn't happen.

Also, NOW people are saying we should have closed things earlier. Well, even when things started getting close, there were massive complaints about how this is not a big deal and it's all about govt trying to control us. My coworker went ballistic when her son's basketball championship got cancelled bc you know, the horror of missing a game.

Like I said - people complained, complain, and will continue to complain.

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I am not sure.

Locally we had messaging to use Memorial Day to honor the dead. And in our rural area there was only one party I was aware of whereas usually there are many more, both at local homes and people coming out to party and camp in government lands areas. 

 

And there were lots of messages to stay local and support local businesses, but not travel, not go to beach or mountains etc. 

There was intermittent rain which may have helped, but even then partying was way down compared to recent years. And I am very glad of it. 

I have not seen news reports on what actually happened. 

I am in New England. I think it's a mess as far as opening things and people's reactions to it. Also, I live within a very short distance from at least 4 other states and their rules are different than ours and number of cases they have is also very different.

this summer will be a challenge, for sure

[Arcadia]

44 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I asked the director about the fall and she said unless there were rules specifically binding private schools, she was planning on the normal two day in person classes, especially as each has less than ten kids to a class.  Lunch could be trickier but we should still be able to spread kids out if need be.  

Pre-COVID, my kids outsourced classes at three different locations have the teachers and students eating at the outdoor tables. It was to minimize eating crumbs in the classrooms. 

[SereneHome]

3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I thought we should have closed earlier back then ;-). But then I'm in NYC. 

But mostly I think we needed to have tested earlier. Going in blind was just dumb. 

I agree. But then again, I think we run into the "size" of the country and logistics of it all.

Also, there was an outrage when Trump started shutting down borders bc many thought it was just one of his tactics. So, that brings me back to  - people weren't happy, aren't happy and won't be happy with anything related to this whole mess.

I do hope you and your family are doing well. My husband's uncle died in NY last month....we have family friends who are in NY and on week 6-7 of still not feeling well after testing positive twice. My heart truly goes out to you

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

@Teaching3bears do you mind sharing what region of the US you live in?
 

I am seeing this a bit too--people declaring they are "done" with social distancing, stores seem crowded, etc. but I am not sure yet how prevalent this idea is. I try to remember that sometimes the most vocal people on FB don't represent the majority. I am concerned though.

Well, in my area we've gone from about half or more people wearing masks in stores to maybe 5%, and many are just doing it as a token gesture, with the mask around only their mouth, hanging from an ear, etc. 

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Why can’t we decide that risk for ourselves?  This is where you’re getting people chafing.  I don’t really care how much your family isolates, and in fact we do a lot of that ourselves each year and as needed in group activities because of our risk factors.  But each person deciding what level of risk they are willing to accept in how much they mingle and go out is how it SHOULD be in areas with very low density or public spread, like ours.  Over 70% of the cases in this county have been in nursing homes, and the deaths of lower risk people in the 40 and under range are very low as well.  I’m totally comfortable deciding what level of precaution to take from here and adjusting as things change.  This is not something DeWine can decide better than I can for myself.

Well, the reason in general, not saying your specific area, is that no one really IS deciding on that risk only for themselves. If they catch it, and spread it, it increases the risk for everyone else. So that's why. 

Those cases in the nursing homes didn't start in the nursing homes, they came from the community. So reducing community spread helps protect people in nursing homes. 

Now, not speaking to your area, I don't know what the numbers are there, can't judge the risk/reward ratio, but in general, yeah, the "decide for myself" works in a pandemic as well as it does in a black out. If you open your curtains, you don't just put yourself at risk, you put the whole neighborhood at risk. 

The people at my local store going around without masks, not social distancing, etc put me and mine at risk. 

 

[cabercro]

When this all started, I think (know?) that I was more informed than most of the people in my rural area, thanks to you all here and my husband's Reddit habit. So for the first half of March, we spent this eeire period feeling like we were overreacting. Buying staple groceries items, planning for our respective schools to close (we're both teachers), working through a schedule for how we would work from home and care for our preschooler. All the while, trying to fight the doubt we felt but couldn't fully explain. March 13th was our last day of school and our internet happened to be out (pretty rare for our school), so I spent the class period passing out consumable workbooks from the dusty corners of the bookroom and explaining to the kids, "Hey, if we don't come back to school on Monday, do this this and this until we get a plan in place." Then I spent the second half of class drawing flattened curves on the board and trying to explain epidemiology to 12 year olds. I had them take all their stuff home - notebooks, books, gave out extra pencils 'just in case'. My co-workers (who are very intelligent and who I love) literally told me I was crazy. And then Saturday we found out we weren't coming back to school. And finally we felt like we'd made the right call. My mother, who took a decent amount of convincing to stop.going.out. called and said "How did you know it was going to get this bad?!" My coworkers scrambled to get materials together for kids. And since then, all has been calm. Our friends and families were respecting the orders. We were banding together to support local businesses. Parks and Rec made a quarantine reunion episode! We made a routine of going out on Friday mornings as a family to do any needed shopping (just DH going into the store) and visiting a local walking trail and creek that were always deserted.

The last few weeks have felt like March again. I'm once again feeling like I'm being overly protective while I watch others just not understand. And once again I find myself second guessing all of my decisions. And I feel like it's only going to get worse. I think what frustrates me most, without getting too political, is it shouldn't have been this hard. We should be able to reopen safely by now. We should have the things in place we need to get back to normal life. But we don't. And that's a direct failure of our leadership - at all levels - for physically not preparing, for spreading misinformation, for downplaying the importance of facts and science and experts, and for creating a culture where every decision you make can be seen as politically motivated. 

[EmilyGF]

55 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Also, frankly, this country is not ruled by public opinion. It doesn't matter whether people were happy with what they were doing at the time or not. People's level of satisfaction about specific actions change in retrospect, anyway. If that had turned out to be one of many things that had kept the virus out of the USA, I think people would remember it gratefully, no matter what they had felt about it at the time. 

I'm so worried about what happens going forward :-/. I can't see our way clear of this mess. I hope we don't discover any other unpleasant after-effects, like we have with the pediatric inflammatory syndrome. I hope immunity lasts a relatively long time. I hope the country isn't deep in turmoil again by the fall. It's all frightening. 

It makes me think of polio, which my mom nearly died of at 18 months, spending 10 days in an iron lung. She survived and was very active as an adult, into rock climbing and backpacking. Now, from post-polio syndrome, which started creeping up for her in her 50s, she's nearly crippled, unable to walk more than a block at a time. That's one thing that is keeping us cautious. We just don't know. Also, we want there to be no after-effects, so we're more likely to believe that until proved otherwise.

Emily

[Selkie]

Here, the anti-maskers believe that the number of Covid deaths is a lie. They've been trumpeting that all over social media, and saying that Covid is being listed on death certificates for people who died from other diseases, car accidents, etc.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I've heard you say that before. Do you have any idea why? Are they no longer worried? 

Honestly, I wasn't the one at the stores, DH went to one, and DS 20 to the other. Both independently, without hearing the other describe their trip, said it was maybe 5% of people masking, describedthe mask around only the mouth thing, etc. 

So I wasn't there to ask them, and I wouldn't have wanted to get that close anyway. But my guess? Because it is "hard". Somehow we got to a point in our society where "hard" equals "don't have to" or "can't". It's like hard became a bad word. 

I think there is also a culture here that wearing a mask shows you are giving into fear. 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Guest]

@cabercro, I could not have said it any better. Your whole post resonates with me. I even remember so clearly, early March, declining certain activities, saying, “It’s probably silly, but I just came back from Europe and I’m just not comfortable thinking I could spread that virus to this whole group.” I didn’t go to a baby shower, asking instead if someone could facetime me in. I’m sure at least some of my friends were completely rolling their eyes. 

What I miss is the fun of FB in the early part of quarantine. Jokes about snacking, COVID Bingo cards with things like, “sterilized your steering wheel?” Even the inspirational-quote-type posts. FB seems totally empty of that now. People who are still positive have retreated into silence. Vocal people are just sharing hostile memes and heckling the governor. It’s just gotten so ugly...

[Selkie]

14 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

You do realize multiple states and countries have actually reclassified deaths that were coded incorrectly, right? Like homicide and car accident victims being listed as a death of the virus, either in reporting or in the state totals?  Or estimations on the population being substituted in for verified numbers? The entire thing is by no means a conspiracy, but this isn’t really debatable. This isn’t huge but it is a factor and serves to undermine the credibility of the counts, unfortunately.  

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/new-york-times-lists-homicide-victim-coronavirus-d/

https://disrn.com/news/washington-officials-admit-to-counting-gunshot-victims-as-covid-19-deaths

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/
 

Also, most of the people I know who aren’t in favor of wearing a mask are not denying that people are getting sick from this? They simply don’t want to and would rather take the risk.  But they’re also not verbally abusing or harassing mask wearers. I have seen ZERO of that here, and nobody has said a word to me when I wear one, either.

What’s happening here is that every time one of the local health departments posts an updated number of deaths, the anti-maskers respond with the laughing emoji and then post about how this is all a bunch of lies and these people died from something else, etc., etc. Then heartbroken family members of the victims respond that yes, my family member absolutely did die from the virus.

It is not just a few anti-maskers behaving this way, either. There are many of them.

[TCB]

34 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

You do realize multiple states and countries have actually reclassified deaths that were coded incorrectly, right? Like homicide and car accident victims being listed as a death of the virus, either in reporting or in the state totals?  Or estimations on the population being substituted in for verified numbers? The entire thing is by no means a conspiracy, but this isn’t really debatable. This isn’t huge but it is a factor and serves to undermine the credibility of the counts, unfortunately.  

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/new-york-times-lists-homicide-victim-coronavirus-d/

https://disrn.com/news/washington-officials-admit-to-counting-gunshot-victims-as-covid-19-deaths

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/
 

Also, most of the people I know who aren’t in favor of wearing a mask are not denying that people are getting sick from this? They simply don’t want to and would rather take the risk.  But they’re also not verbally abusing or harassing mask wearers. I have seen ZERO of that here, and nobody has said a word to me when I wear one, either.

I'm wondering why people, who are concerned about the figures, don't look at the excess deaths figures? Why would they not check that out? If you look at those you can see that something unusual is happening. Calm and common sense seem to have gone out of the window.

[TCB]

17 minutes ago, Selkie said:

What’s happening here is that every time one of the local health departments posts an updated number of deaths, the anti-maskers respond with the laughing emoji and then post about how this is all a bunch of lies and these people died from something else, etc., etc. Then heartbroken family members of the victims respond that yes, my family member absolutely did die from the virus.

It is not just a few anti-maskers behaving this way, either. There are many of them.

I honestly don't know how many think this way in my area, but the ones that do are extremely vocal about it. It also keeps escalating with them and they keep coming up with more bizarre interpretations. I do know, from my few visits out to the store etc, and unfortunately from pictures of my area that made international news, that there are many people going about their lives again very much as they were 2 months ago.

[Selkie]

6 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Meanwhile @Selkie, adults are bullying non-mask wearers.  Sigh. Can’t we all just leave one another alone and mind our own habits without getting aggressive?  This isn’t okay when done on either side.

 

Maybe the NY residents can weigh in on this incident. I personally have seen no bullying of non-mask-wearers where I live, either in person or on social media. 

I brought up the behavior of the Covid death deniers because someone upthread asked why some people have abandoned masks and social distancing. In my area, it seems to be in large part because they do not believe this to be a deadly virus.

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

Maybe the NY residents can weigh in on this incident. I personally have seen no bullying of non-mask-wearers where I live, either in person or on social media. 

I brought up the behavior of the Covid death deniers because someone upthread asked why some people have abandoned masks and social distancing. In my area, it seems to be in large part because they do not believe this to be a deadly virus.

Read Square's post about what things have been like in NYC and you get an idea of why people might feel a little tense about people choosing to violate the law and put others at risk.  

I was in a store for the first time since March about a week ago and 100% of people I saw in the store were wearing masks.   I'm in a red county/area of a blue state.  (Edited:  I think we may actually be moving purple at this point). 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Where's Toto?

[EmseB]

34 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

Yelling was uncalled for. But social pressure is a powerful motivator. And I'm glad the social pressure is pro-masking over here. 

By the way, as I mentioned upthread, this isn't a political statement. Staten Island is not a liberal place. 

This is bullying; calling it social pressure is a bit orwellian. There are people for whom masks are contraindicated and if masking is popular,, they will be a tiny minority. I would hate for them to get this kind of "social pressure", liberal or conservative.

[EmseB]

And I truly do not get why people don't want to mask or why they would deliberately walk the wrong way in directional grocery aisles in order to stick it to the man or whatever they think they are doing, but I also hate, hate the idea of bullying from the opposite side. Like someone else said, it's all turning ugly.

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Right. The yelling was uncalled for. I said that already. 

It seemed like the rest of the post was excusing the overall sentiment of pressuring people into masking or not going into stores at all. Willing to admit I read you wrong. 

[EmseB]

Just now, square_25 said:

 

Hmmmmm, it's a little more complicated than that. I do think societal pressure is a powerful motivator, and I think it's a positive thing when that societal pressure leans the sensible direction. That's not just about masking -- that's in general. 

For instance, I've absolutely seen people give the stink-eye to people who won't stand up for older people or pregnant women on public transit. And occasionally, someone is outspoken enough to say (or yell) something about it. Is this always fair? No, it's not. It's possible that some of the people not standing up are in fact unable to do so due to hidden disabilities. But it reinforces that the MORAL thing to do is to stand up on the bus, and it promotes community standards. 

I think this is the same thing, taken to an unreasonable extreme. Do I think people should be shouting down people without masks? Absolutely not. That's a ridiculous way to express your opinion. But is it basically a good thing that we've decided that the moral thing to do is to wear a mask? I absolutely think so. 

It's easy to forget the moral thing to do 2 months ago was *not* wear a mask and there was all kind of social media on my feeds about people getting the stink eye for having on an N95 or surgical mask in public places because they were keeping it from health care workers, even if it was an expired n95 you found in your garage from home repairs two years ago. Or how ridiculous it was to wear a cloth mask because they did nothing. The moral, social pressure was on not wearing masks, and making cloth masks for hcws, and hcws being outraged about having to take donated cloth masks because they did little to nothing to protect from the virus. Now we're all supposed to immediately believe that cloth masks are going to vastly reduce the spread of the virus.

The science on what masks did or didn't do did not change in those two months. So I think societal pressure about what's moral and causing people to be shamed or feel shamed needs to be examined very carefully, especially when winds change so very swiftly.

*I wear a mask when indoors in public spaces.

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

What masks did or didn't do did not change. Our understanding of it may have. Now, perhaps we should have understood that masks work a few months, looking at Asia. Chalk this one up to American arrogance. 

Note that we still don't think handmade cloth masks would do much for HCWs -- we just think they protect other people from us, should we happen to be asymptomatic carriers. 

If the preponderance of the evidence turns out to be that masks are ineffective, I'll be the first to change my mind on whether this is a reasonable societal stance. 

I guess my point is more toward the use of the word moral (not wearing a mask being immoral) and how public pressure can rapidly shift from one thing to the next based on our understanding of data or new scientific discoveries, and can quickly turn into a negative mob mentality.

[happi duck]

I'm willing to give the shouting shoppers a pass because of fear.  I can imagine in a hot spot that an unmasked person triggers a true fear/danger response.

I live in a different hard hit county and grocery shopping plus my anxiety turns into a massive effort to not panic...fight or flight or freeze...run out of the store or tell people to back off! or freeze in terror.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by happi duck

[SereneHome]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

Maybe the NY residents can weigh in on this incident. I personally have seen no bullying of non-mask-wearers where I live, either in person or on social media. 

I brought up the behavior of the Covid death deniers because someone upthread asked why some people have abandoned masks and social distancing. In my area, it seems to be in large part because they do not believe this to be a deadly virus.

I was yelled at by a woman in Whole Foods. She was trying to get others (including a cashier) on board, no one responded. She asked cashier if I am allowed in the store. Since I was, she stopped ranting.

I can not get people to stay the heck away. Every time I went to the store since March 12th, I have to wait people out, step away, move out of the way just not to have them too close to me.  But they wear masks. They do move them up and down to talk on the phone, to take a bite of something, or drink of water, but they do wear masks. And don't stay anywhere close to 6ft apart.

 

[EmseB]

19 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I'm willing to give the shouting shoppers a pass because of fear.  I can imagine in a hot spot that an unmasked person triggers a true fear/danger response.

I live in a different hard hit county and grocery shopping plus my anxiety turns into a massive effort to not panic...fight or flight or freeze...run out of the store or tell people to back off! or freeze in terror.

 

 

I am not willing to give them a pass. Mob mentality like this gets dangerous very quickly. No one should be shouted at for wearing a mask or not wearing one and certainly not ganged up on as if they were physically threatening those other people. If she was unwilling to distance herself or was deliberately putting herself in someone else's space i might change my mind.

[EmseB]

Also, in general I can't figure out why people aren't doing grocery pick up or delivery but I guess it isn't available in many areas?

[KungFuPanda]

5 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

You ladies crack me up.  I’m probably one of the most cautious, data driven CV responsive people in my circle of friends.  The one distancing, cancelling or changing activities, staying home from church, wearing a mask, etc.  And then I come on here and try to gently present the viewpoint I hear in the wild and end up looking like the crazy science denier who doesn’t care if everyone gets sick.  It’s major cognitive dissonance for my self image 😁

::whispers:: I heard Arctic Mama is a Flat Earther.

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

::whispers:: I heard Arctic Mama is a Flat Earther.

 

[Frances]

9 hours ago, Selkie said:

Not the OP,  but I can tell you that the same thing is happening here in Illinois. Lots of people are acting like the whole thing is over, despite all the evidence to the contrary. The number of cases and deaths in our area is rising rapidly. Yet stores are packed, tons of tourists were here over the weekend, very few people are wearing masks. Local stores are defying the state mandate and allowing their employees to go mask-less. Some people who had been making the effort to shop at our locally owned grocery store and hardware store have now started shopping at Walmart instead, because all the employees there wear masks.

I live close to Iowa and Wisconsin and am hearing the situation is even worse there. In the town where my boys go to college, people wearing masks are being openly mocked.

Most of my immediate family is near you and am I hearing the same thing from them. I’m still not venturing out here, but the pictures in the paper since we entered Phase 1 on Friday (despite increasing cases) showed no customers wearing masks at all, just employees, as they are required to. It was just photo galleries, no articles, so I don’t think they were choosing certain pictures to make a point. We’ve been having beautiful weather, so hopefully most people who are going out are doing outside stuff rather than indoors.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Frances

[Bambam]

8 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Why can’t we decide that risk for ourselves?  This is where you’re getting people chafing.  I don’t really care how much your family isolates, and in fact we do a lot of that ourselves each year and as needed in group activities because of our risk factors.  But each person deciding what level of risk they are willing to accept in how much they mingle and go out is how it SHOULD be in areas with very low density or public spread, like ours.  Over 70% of the cases in this county have been in nursing homes, and the deaths of lower risk people in the 40 and under range are very low as well.  I’m totally comfortable deciding what level of precaution to take from here and adjusting as things change.  This is not something DeWine can decide better than I can for myself.

I would feel great about this, however, I live in a state where individualism is taken to new heights. Mask wearing is obviously an infringement on our rights by XYZ, and many will refuse to wear any mask here for any reason (except when they have to go to the doctor, but they will complain and make a fuss and carry on like you are forcing them to give up their first born child).  I'm not kidding, either. I wish I were. Plus we still have a VERY large number of people who  either A) Don't believe the virus is real (yes, still) or B) Believe the virus is no worse than the flu. My poor oldest is now not allowed to work, because she reported she had a contact with someone who believes they might have the virus (although this person also does not believe the virus is a real thing, but I digress), and her boss won't let her come in. Person who suspected he is infected *still* hasn't went in to get tested because *no clue*, so the people who have had close contact with him are all sidelined from working for two weeks.  

So, it is a little hard to accurately access your risks. If everyone were doing the right thing and wearing masks, not going out when they were having symptoms, it would be fine. But, at least here, you should probably just assume that every other person you encounter is sick.  If you are willing to include that in your risk analysis, then you'd probably be okay. 

There is also a huge amount of peer pressure going on here. Like if you don't do this behavior (that most would consider risky), then you are a fear-controlled idiot. If you wear a mask, you are obviously a fear controlled idiot. 

But really, I am with you. I'd like for people to be responsible, to evaluate the risk, and do acceptably risky things. I just wish people would do that. 

[Ausmumof3]

49 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I guess my point is more toward the use of the word moral (not wearing a mask being immoral) and how public pressure can rapidly shift from one thing to the next based on our understanding of data or new scientific discoveries, and can quickly turn into a negative mob mentality.

When there’s a mask shortage leaving them for healthcare workers is the moral thing to do.  When there’s not wearing them to protect healthcare workers is the moral thing to do.  
 

that said we aren’t wearing masks here.  I’ve seen three or four people wearing them during the worst time and outside of that only Asians.  There’s a pretty strong cultural negativity toward it and it’s not advised in government messaging.  DH did have to wear one for work - I’m not sure if that’s still required.

[Frances]

7 hours ago, kand said:

Certainly can’t help that prominent cable news personalities tweet insults about Joe Biden looking dumb for wearing a mask out of the house and that then that same insult gets re-tweeted by the potus. That kind of thing is undoubtedly not helpful in keeping mask wearing up, particularly in red areas of the country. So darn sad when it’s one of the few things the public can do right now to try to keep things from swinging out of control as we open things up.

The kind of leadership we need on this. Here’s a video of the governor of North Dakota talking about mask wearing.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/23/politics/doug-burgum-north-dakota-face-masks/index.html

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Selkie said:

Here, the anti-maskers believe that the number of Covid deaths is a lie. They've been trumpeting that all over social media, and saying that Covid is being listed on death certificates for people who died from other diseases, car accidents, etc.

Exactly what my brother from that area said when he called me this weekend. It’s difficult conversing with him sometimes because he repeats things verbatim from potus or Fox News talking heads.

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Also, most of the people I know who aren’t in favor of wearing a mask are not denying that people are getting sick from this? They simply don’t want to and would rather take the risk.  But they’re also not verbally abusing or harassing mask wearers. I have seen ZERO of that here, and nobody has said a word to me when I wear one, either.

But they aren’t taking the risk for themselves, they are risking the well being of others. If we were like South Korea and had an adequate supply of cheap n95s for the general public, they choosing to wear or not wear a mask would be more of a decision that only affects the individual. But we are not remotely there yet. In our situation in the US, wearing a mask is an act of kindness and respect that protects others.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

I was yelled at by a woman in Whole Foods. She was trying to get others (including a cashier) on board, no one responded. She asked cashier if I am allowed in the store. Since I was, she stopped ranting.

I can not get people to stay the heck away. Every time I went to the store since March 12th, I have to wait people out, step away, move out of the way just not to have them too close to me.  But they wear masks. They do move them up and down to talk on the phone, to take a bite of something, or drink of water, but they do wear masks. And don't stay anywhere close to 6ft apart.

 

Staying 6ft apart is meaningless without a mask in a confined space.