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Janeway

Do we need a do over?

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3 hours ago, Janeway said:

How much of this do you think is real unemployment and how much from prejudice? We have faced so much and have been told the most nasty stuff through the years.  I am talking from anyone from educators on over. My sister, who was a high school counselor in our very large district was informed to not allow kids with ASD to enroll in AP or preAp courses. We have been told by more than one educator and person in position of authority, that kids with autism do not go to college and just need to focus on life skills. When my son was in kindergarten, he was reading chapter books before he started kinder and turned 6 in the first month of kinder, yet the teacher demanded that he was not ready for kindergarten because of his special needs and then wanted to hold him back at the end of the year. She made it clear she did not want him in her class all year and knew he would be at a different school then. Public school was hell for my son. I could write pages and pages over how he has been treated through the years, but my blood boils and I think places should be sued and held accountable.

I don't think it is from prejudice, but multiple issues that impact employability. Employers want employees who are self-directed, adaptable, and work quickly.  All of those are traits that autistics struggle with.  My ds, for example, is very methodical.  He is successful with repetition and no surprises.  He does not adapt to new expectations quickly.  Other employees are going to be more desirable b/c he doesn't fit the white collar employee profile very well.   He is an incredibly hard worker and puts in tremendous effort.  But, he will never be a fast worker.  He will never change gears quickly.  He also has a strong resistance to change, so when they implement new procedures, etc at work, he struggles with adapting.

We have attended parents of adult autistics meetings and the number of adult autistics who hold multiple degrees but can't hold a job is high.  THere are reasons for that.  Accommodations that  help students succeed in a classroom like double time for assignments do not exist with employers. ADA accommodations don't require employers to pay employees that take twice as long to complete a job.  Like I shared above, our ds has never struggled with classwork.  But, expectations that vary on a daily basis, rapid output, flexibility....those are huge obstacles for him.  And those are the very traits that make most college graduates employable.  

FWIW, working with our state's DRS has been invaluable.  Employers do get tax breaks for hiring individuals with disabilities.  DRS offers a lot of support disabled adults.  (And fwiw, their highest case loads are  often austics (We have lived in 3 states and 4 total different DRS locations since ds turned 18. SOme are better than others, but all have shared that autistics really struggle with maintaining employment. )

So in essence, in no way do I think it isn't real.  Nor do I think it is prejudice.  At least for our ds, I know that it is his very real limitations hitting reality.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I thought of one other thing I wanted to share.  When our ds was in high school, I got furious with his therapist when he said to me that all of the education in the world wouldn't matter if ds couldn't hold a job.  I was so angry bc  I knew my ds was incredibly intelligent and could learn and master anything he wanted!! How dare he deny ds's intelligence and strengths.

BUT, no truer words were ever spoken to me by anyone.  My ds is gifted (he has an incredibly high IQ) and he can learn anything he wants to.  But, all of the education in the world doesn't make one a good employee.  And, being a good employee is what allows you to keep a job.  Our ds is employable.  He has had 3 jobs now where he has been one of the top employees. 2 were with Goodwill (which is not a place I would want my kids to ever work, but it was the perfect place for ds to master how to be an employee bc he could make a lot of mistakes without any real repercussions b/c they really worked with him.)  Those 2 jobs are what trained him to be excellent employee he is now.  BUt, he is a great laborer worker bc those skills fit his coping abilities.

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On 5/28/2020 at 12:46 PM, FuzzyCatz said:

I agree with this.  Both my kid's DE CC experience and his big university experience reflect this. The other thing is different profs can be very exacting and diverse with how their classes operate and how work comes in.  It may not be consistent across a campus or even a department.  My son was using all sorts of different websites and apps this spring with his classes after the went online, and was using several before he went online.  College is a lot of hoop jumping.

I also agree CS programs have heavy work loads.  You really need to look at them individually. They can vary widely.

I just want to be clear, I do think a BA can be fine in CS.  I would say that could be a good path for the unsure student who might change majors and has broader interests.  I do think in most cases, you will not be eligible for many tech heavy software development jobs with just that undergrad degree.  But may be eligible for a wide variety of other types of jobs and well positioned for grad programs.   It can be helpful to ask questions with placement.  There are some small privates that can well place ambitious students that possibly go above and beyond with the BA with connections.  Larger tech hubs can be more competitive for opportunities.   But for the companies my husband and I worked and hired for, often flagship engineering programs were the most coveted CS degree undergrad hires.  Over many schools with fancier names.

That said, if that were the path, I would not choose a school based solely on the CS program.  I would choose a school that is a financial fit and seems like it will work  a quirkier student overall.  I still think the CC path could be really good  as a stepping stone if he hasn't done college work to this point.  I wouldn't sign on for a college you can make work for 5 years financially with a kid that may change direction or have hiccups in transitioning.  Keep in mind academic scholarships are often very strict on sequencing, grades and graduating on time, so that is something to check.  If grad school is on the table for this student, keeping his debt low to none is a good consideration too.

 

Okay, I read your post and all the replies and this is a good jumping off point to what I want to add to this discussion. 

I never knew that a BA in computer science was a thing until I saw it mentioned a few years ago on this board. At the school mentioned back then, BA and BS students take the exact same computer science classes. From the school website: There is no difference in the computer science course content between the (BS) EECS and (BA) CS Majors-- the difference is what other subjects you'd like to study. If you prefer greater flexibility in your coursework, or have an interest double-majoring, then the CS Major might be a good choice. There is greater opportunity to explore other departments, such as economics, statistics, business, and music. If you have an interest in electrical engineering, or have and interest in double-majoring in another engineering major, the EECS Major may be better suited for you. https://eecs.berkeley.edu/academics/undergraduate/eecs-cs-comparison-chart

I would drop Baylor for this particular student, because it looks like a 3.0 is required to keep a scholarship there. CS classes are hard because of the skills and time needed, so how smart a student is or how well they test isn't always a good indication of success in CS classes.

It looks to me as Austin and Trinity just require a 2.0 to keep scholarships. That is a lot more doable. 

Trinity offers a BS. I think Austin offers a BA, but I can't find where I read that. That said I don't think either requires much math. Austin requires a stat class and calc 1. At Trinity it looks like your son could take 2 logic classes to meet their math requirements there.  From the bulletin: CS Math requirements. Six hours from the following: any MATH course (excluding 1301, 1310, 1330, 3194, 3195); CSCI 2324; PHIL 3340, 3343. My oldest has a childhood friend who graduated with a computer science degree from small liberal arts school that only required 2 math classes; the friend is now a software engineer for a global software company with more than 10,000 employees.

Trinity requires more CS classes than Austin, 49 hours of cs classes https://cosb.trinity.edu/csci

We visited Trinity years ago when my oldest, who is now a software engineer, was a sophomore in high school, however, it was a general tour while we were on vacation in San Antonio. It was not a fit for my rule-following kid, but one thing I remember was they talked about making your own major. I'm not sure how possible that is, but I did see that Trinity offers a computing as a second major that requires 34 hours of computer science classes.

In reading the Austin catalog, it looks like a CS degree may only require 8 CS classes, so there would be plenty of room for other classes. Based on the BA and the low number of classes required, I would want to talk to the CS department and see where their graduates work after graduation and as what. 

https://www.austincollege.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Computer-Science-Major.pdf 

Community college can be great, but it does not always make sense. This can especially be true if your student already has scholarship offers that will make the school affordable.  It does not look like Trinity will accept transfer cc credit to count toward degree requirements. It does look like Austin will accept CC credit. Another thing to consider, that I read here years ago, is taking all or a lot of general ed credits at CC will mean your student will only have major classes, which may be harder than general ed, for their school gpa for scholarship and graduation purposes. You can look at transfer equivalency charts for both schools on their websites. 

I would not wait another year and apply again for the reason you mentioned, plus I'm not sure having more choices would be good because paralysis of analysis can be real. It is hard to truly understand a kid, a situation just through reading another's posts on the internet. If you think your son needs more time for counseling for autism, to mature, to gain life skills, whatever, a gap year is possible at Trinity. I could not find anything on the Austin website. 

https://new.trinity.edu/admissions-aid/applying-trinity/deferred-enrollmentgap-year-policy

If a deferral is approved .... Financial aid: If you are interested in need-based financial aid, you will need to reapply for aid for the new term by completing the FAFSA and CSS Profile by February 15 during your deferral year. (This would concern me if your son is receiving FA) Merit scholarships: If you received an academic merit scholarship, your award will also be deferred to the future entry term. If you did not receive a merit scholarship, you will not be reconsidered for awards in the next term alongside the new applicant pool. (if he has merit awards, this is good news.)

In your shoes, I would want son to take advantage of on-campus tutoring, counseling, whatever, to help the transition to college go well. I would want to know if they have any special support for students on the spectrum.

I would spend this weekend talking with your son. I would talk about price; how close in price are the two schools. Location: How close to home are the schools?  Support programs. Gut feeling or strong preference. I have a kid that communicates hard stuff better in writing than through talking face to face, so that might be an option if your son doesn't want to talk. 

P.S. I would tell your husband that there is no guarantee that your son will stay interested in computer science, so there is no need to apply to more schools. 

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9 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I thought of one other thing I wanted to share.  When our ds was in high school, I got furious with his therapist when he said to me that all of the education in the world wouldn't matter if ds couldn't hold a job.  I was so angry bc  I knew my ds was incredibly intelligent and could learn and master anything he wanted!! How dare he deny ds's intelligence and strengths.

Off topic, but I want to thank 8 for sharing these stories about her DS over the years. I remember having the same type of reaction initially, but am so glad that I have been able to learn from 8's experience with her DS and work on employability with my DS. We are not there yet, but I am seeing light at the end of the tunnel, and his chosen area of study seems to have employers who are Aspie friendly.

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I lived in Sherman TX for some years and I have been on the Austin College campus and I knew a neighbors son who graduated from there. If the son of the OP would be happy in a small city, Sherman might be a good place for him.  I have 2 browser tabs open on USNEWS. One for Austin College and one for Trinity University in San Antonio. Austin College is tied for #117 in National Liberal Arts Colleges. That's very high. Trinity University is ranked #1 in Regional Universities West, which I believe is a sub-group for schools that are not nationally ranked. Based on that, Austin College in Sherman TX is nationally ranked and IMO more prestigious, but I am assuming that it is more prestigious and that may be incorrect and I try not to assume. I think the student involved here should be very close to home (within a few hours drive) if not in a local school, Good luck to him in making this choice!

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On 5/29/2020 at 9:30 PM, *LC said:
 

Okay, I read your post and all the replies and this is a good jumping off point to what I want to add to this discussion. 

I never knew that a BA in computer science was a thing until I saw it mentioned a few years ago on this board. At the school mentioned back then, BA and BS students take the exact same computer science classes. From the school website: There is no difference in the computer science course content between the (BS) EECS and (BA) CS Majors-- the difference is what other subjects you'd like to study. If you prefer greater flexibility in your coursework, or have an interest double-majoring, then the CS Major might be a good choice. There is greater opportunity to explore other departments, such as economics, statistics, business, and music. If you have an interest in electrical engineering, or have and interest in double-majoring in another engineering major, the EECS Major may be better suited for you. https://eecs.berkeley.edu/academics/undergraduate/eecs-cs-comparison-chart

I would drop Baylor for this particular student, because it looks like a 3.0 is required to keep a scholarship there. CS classes are hard because of the skills and time needed, so how smart a student is or how well they test isn't always a good indication of success in CS classes.

It looks to me as Austin and Trinity just require a 2.0 to keep scholarships. That is a lot more doable. 

Trinity offers a BS. I think Austin offers a BA, but I can't find where I read that. That said I don't think either requires much math. Austin requires a stat class and calc 1. At Trinity it looks like your son could take 2 logic classes to meet their math requirements there.  From the bulletin: CS Math requirements. Six hours from the following: any MATH course (excluding 1301, 1310, 1330, 3194, 3195); CSCI 2324; PHIL 3340, 3343. My oldest has a childhood friend who graduated with a computer science degree from small liberal arts school that only required 2 math classes; the friend is now a software engineer for a global software company with more than 10,000 employees.

Trinity requires more CS classes than Austin, 49 hours of cs classes https://cosb.trinity.edu/csci

We visited Trinity years ago when my oldest, who is now a software engineer, was a sophomore in high school, however, it was a general tour while we were on vacation in San Antonio. It was not a fit for my rule-following kid, but one thing I remember was they talked about making your own major. I'm not sure how possible that is, but I did see that Trinity offers a computing as a second major that requires 34 hours of computer science classes.

In reading the Austin catalog, it looks like a CS degree may only require 8 CS classes, so there would be plenty of room for other classes. Based on the BA and the low number of classes required, I would want to talk to the CS department and see where their graduates work after graduation and as what. 

https://www.austincollege.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Computer-Science-Major.pdf 

Community college can be great, but it does not always make sense. This can especially be true if your student already has scholarship offers that will make the school affordable.  It does not look like Trinity will accept transfer cc credit to count toward degree requirements. It does look like Austin will accept CC credit. Another thing to consider, that I read here years ago, is taking all or a lot of general ed credits at CC will mean your student will only have major classes, which may be harder than general ed, for their school gpa for scholarship and graduation purposes. You can look at transfer equivalency charts for both schools on their websites. 

I would not wait another year and apply again for the reason you mentioned, plus I'm not sure having more choices would be good because paralysis of analysis can be real. It is hard to truly understand a kid, a situation just through reading another's posts on the internet. If you think your son needs more time for counseling for autism, to mature, to gain life skills, whatever, a gap year is possible at Trinity. I could not find anything on the Austin website. 

https://new.trinity.edu/admissions-aid/applying-trinity/deferred-enrollmentgap-year-policy

If a deferral is approved .... Financial aid: If you are interested in need-based financial aid, you will need to reapply for aid for the new term by completing the FAFSA and CSS Profile by February 15 during your deferral year. (This would concern me if your son is receiving FA) Merit scholarships: If you received an academic merit scholarship, your award will also be deferred to the future entry term. If you did not receive a merit scholarship, you will not be reconsidered for awards in the next term alongside the new applicant pool. (if he has merit awards, this is good news.)

In your shoes, I would want son to take advantage of on-campus tutoring, counseling, whatever, to help the transition to college go well. I would want to know if they have any special support for students on the spectrum.

I would spend this weekend talking with your son. I would talk about price; how close in price are the two schools. Location: How close to home are the schools?  Support programs. Gut feeling or strong preference. I have a kid that communicates hard stuff better in writing than through talking face to face, so that might be an option if your son doesn't want to talk. 

P.S. I would tell your husband that there is no guarantee that your son will stay interested in computer science, so there is no need to apply to more schools. 

Yesterday, we drove down to Baylor and my son said he wants to go to Baylor. But it was not a I WANT it. It was more of a...I spent a lot of time with dad so I guess I realize I want it. (we are starting to have a wee bit of marital discord now over this. You know those times when your spouse irritates you???) I have done so much research and my husband has done none. My husband relates everything to his days in college and then where friend's kids have gone.  I have had friends whose kids have gone to Hendrix, Trinity, Baylor, Austin College, and UTD (just taking from my son's list, I have friends whose kids have gone more places than that). Of the people we knew who went to Baylor, some were good students, even very good students, and religion was a factor for them. One, their child got in to Baylor originally but went to Duke. Son hated Duke and left after a semester and went to Baylor and has graduated. Others are very conservative but good, hardworking smart kids. And then there is that one person....an old friend of mine who simply has a lot of money and her son barely graduated high school. He went there too. That irritates me. And it sticks with me. 

Another thing that bothers me about Baylor is....their core is huge. As in, even if son does a BA CS, he will need 54 credits in the core (but they will let him bring in 21 credits from outside and count toward core), and 54 credits in computer science, plus about another 15 credits for the BA CS in required supporting courses. This pretty much obliterates the notion that he is getting the BA over BS so that he can have more room for electives in other areas. My husband points out that the core seems not too rigid and he will get to choose from a few different courses within each area. So this might all be fine. I am having a difficult time sorting through the various honors programs. He applied to BIC, University Scholars, and the honors program in general and got in to all three. He did not apply to GTX. 

He had loved Hendrix and I think what they have to offer educationally is more his thing. BUT, since then, he has heard from some people that Hendrix, while it has super nice people, is a party school of the kind where it is a small school so it is hard to find a social scene that is not a party scene. He had actually picked Hendrix but once we heard this more and more and then started looking at reviews, we backed off.  I am concerned about the GPA requirement at Baylor. It seems like it might be a harder school than a small liberal arts one where you can have easy access to professors and small classes. I am not saying Baylor might have better content, I am just saying it might be harder to work through the bureaucracy of the large university and connect with. people and professors like one could at a small school. And we know nothing about Southwestern, other than that most people seem to like Southwestern, but usually pick Hendrix over Southwestern or Austin College when they have a choice.

Also, I did notice Trinity requires less courses even in actual computer science for the BS than Baylor does for the BA. But my husband's feeling is that Trinity is not going to be much different from Baylor so not point to drive the extra hours to get to Trinity. (any opinions on this?)

I am very worried over the scholarship GPA requirements. Plus, Baylor gave less financial aid by a few thousand a year, but it is a small enough difference that it is not a huge deal. It is a small deal, but not a deal breaker. 

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2 hours ago, Janeway said:

<snip>

Of the people we knew who went to Baylor, some were good students, even very good students, and religion was a factor for them.

<snip>

It seems like it might be a harder school than a small liberal arts one where you can have easy access to professors and small classes. I am not saying Baylor might have better content, I am just saying it might be harder to work through the bureaucracy of the large university and connect with. people and professors like one could at a small school.

<snip>


RE: Baylor:  If your family attends a Baptist church your DS would probably be happy there, but if not, what percentage of the undergraduates are members of the Baptist church?

Hendrix has undergraduate enrollment of approximately 1202 students. Baylor has undergraduate enrollment of approximately 14188 (I am looking at USNEWS) which is somewhat less than at Carolina, where my DD is.

IMO you might be assuming, a lot, when you wrote that "can have easy access to professors and small classes". More than that, for the happiness and mental health of your son, it might be more likely that in a school with small enrollment, one might be ostracized from the cliques.

(My DD in her 2nd semester at Carolina was in a C.S. (Robotics) course (Honors) taught by a PhD. with many years of experience. There were 24 students in that class)

IOW, as a friend whose  daughter (Middle Class) went to UMichigan (she graduated a couple of years ago from their Engineering School) told me, "there are lots of students there from very wealthy families, but she found her "tribe" of friends"

In a huge school, there is more of a possibility of finding others with similar interests and clubs that one finds interesting. In a small school, if one is out, one is out.

As others have commented upthread, I believe, very strongly, that your DS is going to benefit from all the support he can get, on-campus, so that he can be successful. That he can be happy is more important and I believe that on-campus support is going to increase the possibility that he will be happy.  I would probably put the availability of on-campus help, for his issues, as the #1 priority for your DS, if I was the one setting the priorities.

I am like your DH. I base things upon people I know and the experiences of their children in different schools. And what I can see of the school on USNEWS, COLLEGE DATA and Reddit.

I think one can over research and get totally confused with the possibilities open to them and that you and your DS (especially your DS, he should be the one doing the research)  need to narrow this down with a Spreadsheet or throw Darts at a target. Which are the most important priorities for him?

There is no perfect school. They all have pros and cons.  We are extremely thankful that our DD is at Carolina. She is thankful she is there. I hope that your DS will also be happy with the school he eventually enrolls in. I believe the most important thing for him may be the on-campus help available to him for the issues that he has.

Good luck to your DS!

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1 minute ago, Lanny said:


RE: Baylor:  If your family attends a Baptist church your DS would probably be happy there, but if not, what percentage of the undergraduates are members of the Baptist church?

Hendrix has undergraduate enrollment of approximately 1202 students. Baylor has undergraduate enrollment of approximately 14188 (I am looking at USNEWS) which is somewhat less than at Carolina, where my DD is.

IMO you might be assuming, a lot, when you wrote that "can have easy access to professors and small classes". More than that, for the happiness and mental health of your son, it might be more likely that in a school with small enrollment, one might be ostracized from the cliques.

(My DD in her 2nd semester at Carolina was in a C.S. (Robotics) course (Honors) taught by a PhD. with many years of experience. There were 24 students in that class)

IOW, as a friend whose  daughter (Middle Class) went to UMichigan (she graduated a couple of years ago from their Engineering School) told me, "there are lots of students there from very wealthy families, but she found her "tribe" of friends"

In a huge school, there is more of a possibility of finding others with similar interests and clubs that one finds interesting. In a small school, if one is out, one is out.

As others have commented upthread, I believe, very strongly, that your DS is going to benefit from all the support he can get, on-campus, so that he can be successful. That he can be happy is more important and I believe that on-campus support is going to increase the possibility that he will be happy.  I would probably put the availability of on-campus help, for his issues, as the #1 priority for your DS, if I was the one setting the priorities.

I am like your DH. I base things upon people I know and the experiences of their children in different schools. And what I can see of the school on USNEWS, COLLEGE DATA and Reddit.

I think one can over research and get totally confused with the possibilities open to them and that you and your DS (especially your DS, he should be the one doing the research)  need to narrow this down with a Spreadsheet or throw Darts at a target. Which are the most important priorities for him?

There is no perfect school. They all have pros and cons.  We are extremely thankful that our DD is at Carolina. She is thankful she is there. I hope that your DS will also be happy with the school he eventually enrolls in. I believe the most important thing for him may be the on-campus help available to him for the issues that he has.

Good luck to your DS!

I think you might be right about the small school cliques. I lived in a small town for a short while. It was awful! And having a family or a couple good friends did not help. I did not drink and the culture of a small town/rural high school is drinking. That is all the kids did. On the weekends, I was just excluded from everything unless my one nondrinking friend was available. I was so miserable. I was usually alone. The high school had excellent teachers. In hindsight, I am sure there were more kids to be friends with, it just did not happen in the short time I was there. I recall all my teachers were wonderful as was the principal. 

Also, I am a Christian, but not a Southern Baptist type Christian.  I am more of a liberal lutheran church type Christian..as in, fine with a gay female pastor. 

Son said he is fine with Baylor. He selected Hendrix originally and was excited and then we had a blow to something financially but that got fixed. It got fixed-Friday. Yep. I don't think son wanted to think seriously about anything until it was fixed.  And then he said it all felt sudden to him and he did not know what to think. He is worried he won't fit in at Hendrix, otherwise, I think he liked Hendrix best. I suspect this maybe should be at the front of this issue. After all, Hendrix is so far away that it is not like we could just drive to get him on the weekends if he feels stressed or upset. Baylor is close enough that we could.

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I'd look at your family priorities, your son's needs, and then your son's wants.

For example (with info that might not be right), they might be:

1) geographic distance (less than a 4 hr drive from home)

2) affordability ($$)

3) CS major

4) high level of executive function support from the on campus educational support services dept.

5) Enough wiggle room in course plan to take one elective in a non-CS but high-interest subject every other semester

6) etc.

These are examples, but I'd put them all on a spreadsheet with his colleges. Cross off anything that doesn't meet your family's priorities. I'd then rank the ones left in terms of his needs. Finally, I'd see what rises to the top if you take into account his wants. If there are two left, he picks which one he likes better. I'm going to guess there will be a clear winner.

But, he needs to sit down with his college list & your family's firm list of priorities. He needs to put these facts in himself & see where things land, IMO. If you send him off to somewhere that is your pick, he will blame you for whatever bad things might happen (that might end up being of his own making).

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+1 for what RootAnn wrote and her suggestions. I would rearrange the list of priorities and make what she had in 4th position (support from the school) the first priority.   He will need that support and IMO the other things are secondary. 

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5 hours ago, Janeway said:

 

Also, I am a Christian, but not a Southern Baptist type Christian.  I am more of a liberal lutheran church type Christian..as in, fine with a gay female pastor. 

 

Consider this very carefully. We live in an area where many of the homeschoolers are very conservative and we are "liberal Christian fine with a gay female pastor" people, and it is sometimes very lonely for my Dd. She's learned to tread carefully to keep friends, but there is no way she would feel welcome at the Southern Baptist college.

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I would also recommend going through every single course requirement.  We pulled our ds out of school bc he refused to take courses that he disagreed with the premise of taking even though they were required to complete the degree.  If he didn't see the point in how a course fit the actual focus of the degree, he dismissed it as a stupid requirement and wouldn't take it.   Make sure that your ds can see the exact path every semester that he will need to take for each school.   The individual course selections vs. the list of categorical options (without digging down into what those courses actually are) might help him see a clearer picture.

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17 hours ago, Janeway said:

Also, I did notice Trinity requires less courses even in actual computer science for the BS than Baylor does for the BA. But my husband's feeling is that Trinity is not going to be much different from Baylor so not point to drive the extra hours to get to Trinity. (any opinions on this?)

I am very worried over the scholarship GPA requirements. Plus, Baylor gave less financial aid by a few thousand a year, but it is a small enough difference that it is not a huge deal. It is a small deal, but not a deal breaker. 

 

In my opinion every school is different, because they are in different places, have different students, have different faculty/facilities/curriculum. However, I think most kids can be happy/succeed at most schools.

How long does it take to get to Baylor? Austin? Trinity? I wouldn't even think about the ones that cost more at this point. Will your son take a car? Or will you take him there and back? Do you know people at each school that he could ride with if he wanted to come home for a weekend? My kids have all gone to the same college, which has lots of students from our area, so getting a ride home is never an issue. It is about 3 hours away, so I can go there and back for the day if I want to/need to.

"A few thousand a year" adds up when you multiply by 4, so that seems a reason to drop Baylor to me. 

"I am just saying it might be harder to work through the bureaucracy of the large university and connect with. people and professors like one could at a small school." The school my kids attend is bigger than Baylor and they simply email a professor (or go to office hours or stop by the office) if they have a question, need a recommendation, etc. Their cousin, a freshman at the same college this year, had a hard time in engineering physics (due to not taking physics in high school), who went went to the professor for assistance and was invited to do homework in the professor's office daily. (This did stop when classes went online.) 

P.S. I would not worry that you know a person who went there that wasn't a good student since you know others who are good students. 

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10 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I'd look at your family priorities, your son's needs, and then your son's wants.

For example (with info that might not be right), they might be:

1) geographic distance (less than a 4 hr drive from home)

2) affordability ($$)

3) CS major

4) high level of executive function support from the on campus educational support services dept.

5) Enough wiggle room in course plan to take one elective in a non-CS but high-interest subject every other semester

6) etc.

These are examples, but I'd put them all on a spreadsheet with his colleges. Cross off anything that doesn't meet your family's priorities. I'd then rank the ones left in terms of his needs. Finally, I'd see what rises to the top if you take into account his wants. If there are two left, he picks which one he likes better. I'm going to guess there will be a clear winner.

But, he needs to sit down with his college list & your family's firm list of priorities. He needs to put these facts in himself & see where things land, IMO. If you send him off to somewhere that is your pick, he will blame you for whatever bad things might happen (that might end up being of his own making).

 

I agree with all this.

Other possible ideas for the list might be the ability to live off campus. Trinity requires students to live on campus for 3 years. Are students required to attend chapel? 

Plus have him write down a couple of things he wants to do in college, and see if the schools have those activities/opportunities. For one of my kids attending and participating in athletic events was a big deal; another never went to an athletic event in 4 years. However, that kid was on the e-sports team. Your son doesn't have to stick to the list, he is just brainstorming. One of the selling points for this university for my oldest was for a co-op program (even mentioned it in scholarship essays), but changed mind freshman year and ended up interning at multiple companies instead.

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5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I would also recommend going through every single course requirement.  ... Make sure that your ds can see the exact path every semester that he will need to take for each school.   The individual course selections vs. the list of categorical options (without digging down into what those courses actually are) might help him see a clearer picture.

I agree. It seems all three schools have a lot of required courses outside of major classes, so I would suggest you/he write out a four-year course plan for each school. 

Trinity University.

Here is the computer science requirements.

Bachelor of Science in Computer Science 

Requirements for the degree of Bachelor of Science with a major in Computer Science are as follows: 

I. Departmental requirements: 49 credit hours including:

A. Core Principles: CSCI 1120, 1320, 1321, 1323, 2320, 2321, 2322, 3320, 3321, 3322.

B. Departmental Colloquium: Four semesters of CSCI 2094.

C. Curricular Groups: At least three hours from each of the following groups: 

Applications Group: CSCI 3311, 3342, 3343, 3344, 3352, 3353, 3366, 3-95 

Systems Group: CSCI 3323, 3-96 

Design Group: CSCI 3312, 3345, 3362, 3-97 

D. Capstone: One of the following options: 

Senior Software Project: CSCI 4385 and 4386. 

Senior Thesis: CSCI 3398, 4398, and 4399 plus additional requirements listed in the section "Senior Thesis" below. 

E. Electives: Additional upper-division computer science hours sufficient to total at least 49 credit hours. 

II. Mathematics requirement: 

Six hours from the following: any MATH course (excluding 1301, 1310, 1330, 3194, 3195); CSCI 2324; PHIL 3340, 3343. 

III. University requirements: completion of all other required elements of the Pathways curriculum and at least 124 hours

Pathways has six curricular requirements that provide a foundation in the liberal arts and sciences for all bachelor's degrees awarded by Trinity University.

Here is the Pathways requirements at Trinity. There are 6 parts of the pathways, but more than one classes is needed for most of the pathways. (It seems that some classes can meet both major requirements and Pathways requirements. )

The First Year Experience

All students must complete one FYE during their first semester at Trinity. 

The FYE gives incoming students an introduction to the demands of university-level reading, writing, and thinking within an interdisciplinary experience. In it, students begin to acquire the skills and disciplinary perspectives necessary to navigate complex questions in their post-graduate lives. Through extensive engagement in a topic of widespread or enduring significance, the First Year Experience (FYE) is designed for students to analyze sophisticated texts and ideas. 

The FYE includes substantial instruction in written and oral communication skills, offering a once-per-week common learning experience attended by all enrolled students and all participating faculty. All FYE courses offer a once-per-week common learning experience attended by all enrolled students and all participating faculty. These common learning experiences feature lectures by faculty teaching in the course or by visiting colleagues from Trinity or other institutions. Common learning experiences also include field trips, panel discussions, and films. Together, faculty lead discussion and teach writing in individual sections no larger than sixteen students each.

Approaches to Creation and Analysis

Students must successfully complete one course from each category at Trinity.*

In order to master the skills of analysis, research, and creation, students should demonstrate the ability to use disciplinary approaches characteristic of:

The Humanities
courses that enable students to understand the human condition through art, literature, history, philosophy, or religion

The Arts & Creative Disciplines (DOES YOUR SON LIKE THE ARTS, can he find a class he will do well in)
courses that enable students to create aesthetic artifacts or performances

The Social & Behavioral Sciences
courses that enable students to engage in the scientific study of human behavior

The Natural Sciences
courses that enable students to engage in the scientific study of the natural world

Quantitative Disciplines
courses that enable students to solve problems within a structured mathematical framework

The Core Capacities

1. Written, Oral, and Visual Communication

Students should demonstrate the ability to communicate effectively in a variety of contexts and across a variety of media.

Requirements

Students must fulfill written, oral, and visual communications requirements by successfully completing:

two designated courses that require extensive writing and provide substantial instruction in written communication;

two designated courses that require significant oral presentation supported by visual products and provide substantial instruction in oral and visual communication.

2. Digital Literacy

Students should demonstrate the ability to investigate questions, solve problems, and engage in artistic expression through digital technology, and to evaluate its design, function, and cultural impact.

Requirements

Students must successfully complete one course designed to provide substantial instruction in and engagement with principles and tools of digital information.

3. Engaged Citizenship

Students should demonstrate the ability to identify and articulate the perspectives and values of diverse peoples, groups, and cultures around the globe. With the ability to communicate in a foreign language at the intermediate level or above, students should demonstrate the ability to gather and evaluate information from sources that facilitate cross-cultural understanding.

Requirements

Students must fulfill requirements in global awareness, understanding diversity, and a foreign language by successfully completing:

one course addressing the history and culture of a region other than the United States;

one course addressing diversity issues involving race, class, gender, and ethnicity within the United States;

an intermediate level or higher course in a foreign language sequence, or demonstration of equivalent proficiency by examination.

..............

The Interdisciplinary Clusters

Requirements

Students must successfully complete three courses, totaling no fewer than 9 credit hours, from three disciplines.

These courses may be structured as a part of a faculty-designed cluster or a student-designed learning experience that meets the guidelines of the University Curriculum Council.

Courses in the Interdisciplinary Cluster must be taken at Trinity University, with one exception: one course from a Trinity-approved Study Abroad program may be applied to a student’s Interdisciplinary Cluster with pre-approval by the Interdisciplinary Cluster Steering Committee. Only one course in the cluster may be used to fulfill the requirements of the student’s primary major.

....

The Major

Candidates for a baccalaureate degree must fulfill the requirements for a major as listed in the Courses of Study Bulletin.

Here is where to find  the requirements for a computer science degree and course descriptions. https://cosb.trinity.edu/csci

Fitness Education

Students must successfully complete one approved fitness education course. (I definitely have met people who would refuse to take a pe class in college)

 

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For some reason the Major requirements at Baylor would not open on my computer, but I'm sure you can find these. 

Here is the Common Core for a BA iin computer science from Baylor. I can't tell if the BS degree has a common core.

Common Course Requirements

Distribution Lists

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This is what Austin College requires for its Compass Curriculum. 

Experience

Experience connections between your liberal arts education and life beyond the classroom, providing pathways to meaningful careers and community participation.

Engage

Engage new perspectives and prepare yourself to participate in a diverse and global society.

  • One course in Global Diversity
  • One course in Systems of Power, Privilege, and Inequality
  • Competency in a language other than English

Discover

Discover the vast array of knowledge and the modes of inquiry used in different academic areas to further your understanding of the natural world and human cultures.

Develop

Develop foundational skills and habits that support a liberal arts education and the growth of you as a whole student who is prepared to navigate challenges in a fast-changing world.

Focus

Focus your learning by challenging yourself in two different fields that will cultivate complementary intellectual approaches needed to succeed in our ever changing and diverse world.

  • Major
  • Minor (or second major) (will your son be open to a required minor or second major)

...

Computer Science major https://www.austincollege.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Computer-Science-Major.pdf

Computer science courses, need to scroll down some https://bulletin.austincollege.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/mathematics-computer-science.pdf

 

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Last post. I agree with other poster that your son could use some support in college, but I'm not sure you have time to determine which school would offer the best support program for him. A gap year to to work on his "issues" with a professional in your community could be a way to go. Baylor allows a gap year and it sounds like it is close enough to your home that he continue to utilitze the local support program is Baylor does not have one.

Deferring Your Admission

I was admitted to Baylor. Can I defer? 

Students offered admission to Baylor University may request a deferral of enrollment before June 1, which must be approved by the Undergraduate Admissions Office. Deferrals are intended to be granted for intentional occasions in which the student chooses not to begin his or her studies at Baylor University in the term for which he or she was admitted. Examples of intentional deferrals may include, but are not limited to: a religious activity, community service project, or world travel. Deferrals are not granted for financial reasons. Deferral requests are evaluated on their merits, and are not automatically approved simply because they were submitted on time.

* For the incoming Fall 2020 class, we will consider deferral requests due to the impact of COVID-19.

Deadlines and Instructions

First-year students admitted under Early Decision, Early Action or Regular Decision are allowed to apply for deferred enrollment; however, this option is not available to transfers. Deferrals are granted for students wishing to defer for 1 (fall to spring) or 2 (fall to fall) semesters.

Requests for deferral should be made no later than June 1. If you are interested in deferring, you must complete the Deferral Request form, which is located in your goBAYLOR account under ‘Cancel Admission’. The form will ask about your plans for the next year and will confirm you will not be enrolling in a degree-granting program or coursework at another college/university.

Before your deferral request may be reviewed, you must submit your $500 enrollment deposit in goBAYLOR. Baylor will provide notification of deferral approval or denial. If the deferral is granted, Baylor will communicate your next steps in the spring prior to your new entry term. If a deferral request is denied, you will need to reapply for a future semester. 

Terms for Approved Deferrals: 

You may not submit deposits or hold spaces at any other institutions.

You may not enroll at another institution during the deferral period or complete college coursework.

You may not apply for admission to other colleges or universities during the deferral period.

You must notify all other institutions to which you have gained admission of your decision to defer enrollment at Baylor.

Terms for Approved Deferral Financial Aid & Scholarships: 

Financial Aid: If you are interested in need-based financial aid, you will need to reapply for aid for the new term by completing the FAFSA and CSS Profile by February 1 during your deferral year.

Scholarships tied to Invitation to Excellence, Distinguished Scholars Day and/or a Baylor2 program will be honored when you enroll as a freshman student.

Departmental scholarships will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

Special Program Status
If you have been accepted into the Honors College, Baylor Business Fellows, Science Research Fellows, Aviation Sciences (Professional Pilot concentration), Music or Theatre program, you will need to notify them of your intent to defer enrollment.

Housing
If you have received a housing assignment, it will be void and you will submit a new Housing Application when you plan to enroll.

Expectations
We regard an admissions deferral as a mutual commitment. We agree to hold a spot for you at Baylor, and you agree to enter at the time of your new start term. Students planning on applying to other colleges during their deferment period should not seek an admissions deferral.
 

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3 hours ago, *LC said:

 

I agree with all this.

Other possible ideas for the list might be the ability to live off campus. Trinity requires students to live on campus for 3 years. Are students required to attend chapel? 

Plus have him write down a couple of things he wants to do in college, and see if the schools have those activities/opportunities. For one of my kids attending and participating in athletic events was a big deal; another never went to an athletic event in 4 years. However, that kid was on the e-sports team. Your son doesn't have to stick to the list, he is just brainstorming. One of the selling points for this university for my oldest was for a co-op program (even mentioned it in scholarship essays), but changed mind freshman year and ended up interning at multiple companies instead.

I am trying to re-check the Baylor financial aid package to see how it compares to the other colleges again. The reason I am double checking Baylor's is that for some reason, they have changed his package three times without us changing or adding information.  Trinity and Hendrix are both 6 hrs away (and slightly more). Austin College is about 1 hr and a quarter. Baylor is about 2 hrs minus a quarter. I think Southwestern is under 3 hrs. In the absence of visiting, this is hard to gauge.

Edited by Janeway
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48 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I am trying to re-check the Baylor financial aid package to see how it compares to the other colleges again. The reason I am double checking Baylor's is that for some reason, they have changed his package three times without us changing or adding information.  Trinity and Hendrix are both 6 hrs away (and slightly more). Austin College is about 1 hr and a quarter. Baylor is about 2 hrs minus a quarter. I think Southwestern is under 3 hrs. In the absence of visiting, this is hard to gauge.

 

Based on the time and distance from your home to the different schools, if time getting from your home to/from the school was the only factor, I would go for Austin College.  You are in Plano or somewhere in Collin County?   At Austin College, if necessary, he can continue with his existing support network. (I have P.T.S.D. and I went from Sherman to a shrink in Carrollton. Depending on traffic that was 75 to 90 minutes each way).

RE: Baylor:  LC provided a lot of great information on some of the schools in your list. How comfortable is your DS with the Religious courses they require? They are listed under "Common Course Requirements. 

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No experience with the ASD or what your ds wants to study or the schools on your list however I do have a comment about the distance from home.

My second ds is 8 hours from home and while it has been okay there have been challenges with him being far and I can't imagine it would have worked with him if he had any fewer coping skills than he has (we have hit some rough patches, normal, but still). And if 2020 has taught me anything it is that you can't anticipate what would come up that would complicate their lives. I thought the covid 19 situation was alot to deal with and hated having him away for that. Then, the other night I watched his neighborhood burn in the riots. (He was at another location and his apartment is ok but the rioting was in the street right there). So having these extreme situations added to the typical sickness, injury, roommate or relationship issues, etc. is putting me ever more firmly in the camp of being close to home being an advantage for many kids. 

My rising senior could go further away from home for cheaper than what his first choice is. I used to kind of nudge him to consider schools further away that were cheaper. I'm coming around to willingness to pay more to have him closer. Obviously this is a personal situation and doesn't apply to everyone else. But I did think I would throw the opinion out there. 

Good luck to you with the decision.

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5 hours ago, Janeway said:

I am trying to re-check the Baylor financial aid package to see how it compares to the other colleges again. The reason I am double checking Baylor's is that for some reason, they have changed his package three times without us changing or adding information.  Trinity and Hendrix are both 6 hrs away (and slightly more). Austin College is about 1 hr and a quarter. Baylor is about 2 hrs minus a quarter. I think Southwestern is under 3 hrs. In the absence of visiting, this is hard to gauge.

 

I hope rechecking Baylor's aid package brought good news. (I'm going to bring up gap year again, so make sure you look at the amount of merit aid vs financial aid, since those are handled differently for gap years.)

I can understand 6 hours as being outside your comfort zone for this son. My in-laws live 6 hours away and I want at least 3_day weekend when we go there. I have done an overnight trip for a special occasion, but that is once/twice in a couple of decades. 

(Google maps does a decent job of estimating how long a trip will take, especially if you put in the time of your trip.)

So, it looks like you are down to Baylor, assuming the money is right, and Austin College. Congrats choosing between 2  is doable.

It looks like Baylor has a weekly support group for students with autism. Look up BARC, Baylor Autism R.... center. 

I found a PDF for Austin College professors that said 2 percent of students there, I think, have autism and listed possible accomodations. I also found that the director of academic support center received a certificate in something to do with autism academics a few years ago, but no idea if she is still there. Our internet is out, and I can't link from my phone.

It sounds like your husband is sold on Baylor, and your son is leaning that way. Based on what you have said about each and Baylor's 3.0 requirement, I would talk to your husband about a gap year for your son. I would base it on wanting your son to have a full, on campus experience for freshman year, which may not be possible this fall. Our local school has 10 percent of seniors taking a gap year; and gap years aren't normally common here. 

You then use this year for training, therapy, whatever will help put your son in best position to be successful at Baylor. During a gap year, he can't take college classes, but there are a lot of online introduce computer classes he could do. Or, your husband could work with him to see if he has the (whatever) it takes to be a successful CS major.

Like I said I am a driver, so I would think nothing of driving my son to some of the support group meetings at Baylor during the gap year if they would allow him to come during the gap year. 

Good luck making the decision.

 

 

 

Edited by *LC

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I hope today went okay at your home and that your son was able to reach a decision that will work for your son.

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On 6/1/2020 at 10:59 PM, *LC said:

 

I hope today went okay at your home and that your son was able to reach a decision that will work for your son.

Put the deposit down on Baylor. I do not agree with the choice. But that was his choice. He was warned that he will have to take out student loans there and would not need them at any other school on his list at all. But, he still insists. The only reason I do not agree with this choice is cost. This is the school that gave the least financial aid.

Edited by Janeway
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On 6/2/2020 at 3:54 PM, Janeway said:

Put the deposit down on Baylor. I do not agree with the choice. But that was his choice. He was warned that he will have to take out student loans there and would not need them at any other school on his list at all. But, he still insists. The only reason I do not agree with this choice is cost. This is the school that gave the least financial aid.

 

Godspeed to him on the next step in his education. I hope he will be very happy and successful at Baylor. I am hoping he will be OK with the religious studies and activities at Baylor because you had written that you are not members of a Baptist church.  The financial situation is extremely important but less important than him being happy in the school he has chosen.

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