Building/Monitoring an Effort : Easy Ratio in your Kids Life

[mathmarm]

I'm creating a new thread, because I realize that my initial thread was defaulting to being academically focused and was getting further and further away from what I actually feel the need to discuss as we look back over the last couple of years and realize that this is a benchmark that we feel we are missing in our own home.

Which is more along the lines of: 

• What are ways that you cultivate your child's environment or experiences to find a health ratio of  "Effort : Easy" in their life?
• What are some experiences that required you (when you were a child) or your child, to stick with it, that you feel helped (or will help) with developing resiliency?
   

Now, you may use a single, well-defined domain to meet this need for your family, or you may use a mix of experiences/domains to meet this need. But of course, in Modern Day USA Free-range practices of a by-gone era can be very limited depending on where you live. But can we please brainstorm ideas that are not wholly dependent on a very specific setting such as rural farm living or having several kids?

For this thread, I'm much less concerned about any specific academics, and more interested in discussing how to cultivate certain character traits as a part of our educational goal/plan for kids in general. This is not about time-tables (ie by 8 this, by 12 that) or whether or not play is beneficial. This is about I'd like a chance to discuss something that is on my mind (and probably on the minds of others as well) about General Education that is not limited to academics.

Many of us know of a family that use Classical Music, Youth Sports or Competitive Academics to route discipline-instilling, character-building work into their kids lives, but I'd like to discuss other, broader options with The Hive, because The Hive always has a new angle to offer.

[mathmarm]

This is from an article that 8FillTheHeart shared an in the other thread. Emphasis mine.

Quote

Although no one can be sure what skills will be needed, certain character traits will produce children capable of navigating an increasingly complex world as they grow older. These traits include confidence, competence or the ability to master the environment, and a deep-seated connectedness to and caring about others that create the love, safety, and security that children need to thrive. In addition, to be resilient—to remain optimistic and be able to rebound from adversity— young people need the essential character traits of honesty, generosity, decency, tenacity, and compassion. Children are most likely to gain all of these essential traits of resiliency within a home in which parents and children have time to be together and to look to each other for positive support and unconditional love.

 

Lately many families are certainly experiencing a whole lot more "together time". 

[EmilyGF]

We've been very guided by our Dutch friends (see things like road dropping) and by the opportunities we were given in our own lives to pursue independent projects.

Basically, we've tried to give our children opportunities to fail when it really didn't matter, and time to pursue those opportunities.

Our school hours are *very intense* but fairly short, so they can expect open hours in the afternoon / evening to pursue their own projects. Without cell phones, they travel around the city we live in (pop. 2.3 million) and foreign countries by themselves at a fairly young age. Last year, three of my kids enjoyed literally going miles around Jerusalem without adults at the ages of 10, 12, and 14. They learned you can get cheated if you don't bargain well, but really, that isn't a big deal! The 14-year-old flew home by himself from Israel to the US via Istanbul. He screwed up at the airport in Tel Aviv when he was asked if anyone had given him a gift to take with him on the flight and ended up having to unpack and repack his bag after another half hour of questioning, but it grew his confidence and ability (and now he has a great story). Another great story was when DS14-at-the-time rode his bike to try to find a snowy owl and sprained his ankle 5 miles from home. Without a cell phone. I had the car and no cell phone and DH was in a meeting. He borrowed someone's cell to call Dad and Dad said, "I'm busy, figure it out." (!!!) He did - while he planned to bike home, the park ranger decided to drive him home instead, loading his bike on the park truck.

I've told my kids they can't get cell phones until they know they can solve problems without me. But these things have worked out because they started walking to a friend's house at a young age and taking responsibility for various things for themselves or the family. When dd wanted a pet, she had to earn the money for it, so she found a family to work for as a mother's helper. DD13 is a ghost-writer for a home-improvement website. DS15 teaches piano lessons to three kids. It is very satisfying to watch him film instructional videos for his 8yo student who can't sit through a lesson via zoom but who watches his videos over the course of the week and does them.

My children each (starting with the 8yo) have a 5x20+ grid of things they need to get done during the week, including everything from foreign language practice to math lessons and instrument practice. I've broken each day down into manageable chunks that they take responsibility for, though I work with them on many of the pieces. Certain parts have to be done in the morning, and they find it very motivating that when they finish the list, they have complete freedom. Then, they do whatever they want in that time. During this pandemic, DS15 is focusing on bird research, DDs are writing scripts and making movies, and DS8 is building with lego, reading, and teaching himself piano. And they each make dinner once a week. 🙂

Emily

[EmilyGF]

2 hours ago, mathmarm said:

• What are some experiences that required you (when you were a child) or your child, to stick with it, that you feel helped (or will help) with developing resiliency?
   

 

I had a very defining moment right after I turned 7, so 1988, when I got lost in the mountains during a snow storm.

We were vacationing in the mountains at a grandparent-owned vacation cabin. My dad was teaching me to cross country ski in the backyard when a girl showed up. We played outside for a while, but it was starting to snow and wanted to go inside. My mom didn't want us inside, so we decided to go to her house to play and she gave my dad her address. We walked there (she and I - remember, we're both 7) and her mom was cleaning the house and didn't want us inside, either. We decided to take a short-cut back through the woods to the cabin I was staying at, but we got lost in the woods. We were lost for a few hours, during which it snowed a number of inches. I remember sitting with her on a log crying. My dad eventually went door-to-door, asking people if they had seen two little girls, and one of the men he had talked with later found us and took us to the cabin.

My dad's response was, "Next year, you need to memorize the address before you're allowed to go anywhere."

My dad's response was to trust me but prepare me better. It felt wonderful and shaped me as a confident, independent person as well as a parent focused on preparation.

[lewelma]

When my kids were younger, I focused on self-assessment.  We created a paper chain that stretched around the family room ceiling, very publicly displayed.  My son (age 6-8) could add a new link whenever he felt he had achieved a goal. It was a goal of his making (and obviously some influence by me as the parent, but he always considered it *his* goal).  Each link was worth about 10 minutes of effort. Although we never made that rule, it just became the norm.  When people would come into the family room, they would ask about the chain, and he could talk about how he had earned every link, and how he planned to make it grow longer.  He was *very* proud of this chain, and he kept adding to it for over a year.  Most days he judged himself worthy of 2 to 6 links.  It was the best approach I ever found to deeply instill the desire to be the person he wanted to be, and to rely on his own judgement for a job well done rather than seek external reinforcement. 

 

[mathmarm]

41 minutes ago, lewelma said:

When my kids were younger, I focused on self-assessment.  We created a paper chain that stretched around the family room ceiling, very publicly displayed.  My son (age 6-8) could add a new link whenever he felt he had achieved a goal. It was a goal of his making (and obviously some influence by me as the parent, but he always considered it *his* goal).  Each link was worth about 10 minutes of effort. Although we never made that rule, it just became the norm.  When people would come into the family room, they would ask about the chain, and he could talk about how he had earned every link, and how he planned to make it grow longer.  He was *very* proud of this chain, and he kept adding to it for over a year.  Most days he judged himself worthy of 2 to 6 links.  It was the best approach I ever found to deeply instill the desire to be the person he wanted to be, and to rely on his own judgement for a job well done rather than seek external reinforcement. 

This is such a wonderful idea! It's wide-reaching and very applicable! It's such a simple--but brilliant idea! Thank you for this! 

Did you get this idea from a book or article, and if so, which one?! (I only ask, because there might be other jewels in there that I wouldn't want to miss out on!) 

We are definitely implementing this. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by mathmarm
hate --> want

[lewelma]

10 minutes ago, mathmarm said:

This is such a wonderful idea! It's wide-reaching and very applicable! It's such a simple--but brilliant idea! Thank you for this! 

Did you get this idea from a book or article, and if so, which one?! (I only ask, because there might be other jewels in there that I wouldn't hate to miss out on!) 

We are definitely implementing this. 

I'm glad you like it!  I made it up!

[mathmarm]

2 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

We've been very guided by our Dutch friends (see things like road dropping) and by the opportunities we were given in our own lives to pursue independent projects.

Basically, we've tried to give our children opportunities to fail when it really didn't matter, and time to pursue those opportunities.

Emily

Thank you for this. Sometimes I'll read or be reminded of something that seems like it should be a duh moment, but is actually really insightful.

Personally, I really click with many of the cultures that view struggle and independence as a vital part of childhood and support parents who engage in such practices.

I really love the old proverb: Send the beloved child on a journey. and a part of me aches that we don't live in an environment where this is easier to do.

We hope to take the kids abroad a couple of times during their childhood. But another part of me certainly doesn't want the first time that my children struggle to be in a foreign land. 

If/When Covid-19 restrictions lighten up, we'll explore more opportunities for Free Range adventures in our community. 

2 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

I had a very defining moment right after I turned 7, so 1988, when I got lost in the mountains during a snow storm.

We were vacationing in the mountains at a grandparent-owned vacation cabin. My dad was teaching me to cross country ski in the backyard when a girl showed up. We played outside for a while, but it was starting to snow and wanted to go inside. My mom didn't want us inside, so we decided to go to her house to play and she gave my dad her address. We walked there (she and I - remember, we're both 7) and her mom was cleaning the house and didn't want us inside, either. We decided to take a short-cut back through the woods to the cabin I was staying at, but we got lost in the woods. We were lost for a few hours, during which it snowed a number of inches. I remember sitting with her on a log crying. My dad eventually went door-to-door, asking people if they had seen two little girls, and one of the men he had talked with later found us and took us to the cabin.

My dad's response was, "Next year, you need to memorize the address before you're allowed to go anywhere."

My dad's response was to trust me but prepare me better. It felt wonderful and shaped me as a confident, independent person as well as a parent focused on preparation.

What a cool story! Thank you for sharing it.

[lewelma]

We had lots of colors of construction paper to chose from, and each time he wanted to add a link, he had to pick the color, cut it out, and stand on a chair to staple it on.  So the effort to add the link (way more than just a sticker), reinforced the effort it took for him to earned it.  And strangely, standing on the chair to reach the chain was quite symbolic because he was reaching up.  Also, the planning of *how* to make the chain go around the room, from bookshelf, to art, to curtain, etc, was also symbolic of planning how to achieve his goals. And while he was planning the chain's future location and color, he would simultaneously plan how to earn more links. There was a reason why he kept adding to the chain for so over a year.  And even after he quit adding to it, it stayed up for at least a year longer. 

ETA: I just talked to younger ds, and he remembers the paper chain quite fondly a decade later. 🙂 

Edited May 24, 2020 by lewelma

[mathmarm]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

We had lots of colors of construction paper to chose from, and each time he wanted to add a link, he had to pick the color, cut it out, and stand on a chair to staple it on.  So the effort to add the link (way more than just a sticker), reinforced the effort it took for him to earned it.  And strangely, standing on the chair to reach the chain was quite symbolic because he was reaching up.  Also, the planning of *how* to make the chain go around the room, from bookshelf, to art, to curtain, etc, was also symbolic of planning how to achieve his goals. And while he was planning the chain location and color, he would simultaneously plan how to earn more links. There was a reason why he kept at the chain for so many months.  And even after he quit adding to it, it stayed up for at least a year longer. 

Hubby and I were literally just discussing this very thing!

[EmilyGF]

8 minutes ago, mathmarm said:

Thank you for this. Sometimes I'll read or be reminded of something that seems like it should be a duh moment, but is actually really insightful.

Personally, I really click with many of the cultures that view struggle and independence as a vital part of childhood and support parents who engage in such practices.

I really love the old proverb: Send the beloved child on a journey. and a part of me aches that we don't live in an environment where this is easier to do.

We hope to take the kids abroad a couple of times during their childhood. But another part of me certainly doesn't want the first time that my children struggle to be in a foreign land. 

If/When Covid-19 restrictions lighten up, we'll explore more opportunities for Free Range adventures in our community. 

What a cool story! Thank you for sharing it.

I used the foreign country example because it is so striking, but really, the only reason that was possible was because they are so independent and capable at home in the USA. If I told you they plan craft projects at home and then bike to the craft store to buy the things they need with their own money, it wouldn't show their level of capability. But they could only go the the Old City of Jerusalem to buy yarn and their favorite sweets because they'd done something similar multiple times at home.

I think sometimes it is actually easier to do so than we believe. The vast majority of people who see my kids out on their own think it is great. I am purposeful about telling them how to be safe, for example, which side of the street is safer to cross on due to traffic patterns, or why certain streets are lousy ones to walk on by yourself because they don't have enough foot traffic. But with that preparation, I trust them, they know that, and they are therefore confident.

[wendyroo]

One thing I have always tried to do is very consciously avoid "depriving" my kids of opportunities to solve their own gosh darn problems.

Each of my kiddos will come to me dozens (and dozens and dozens) of times a day trying to dump their problems in my lap.  My oldest three tend to default to that somewhat due to their neurodevelopmental delays that make problem solving hard.  Nonetheless, it is a skill that will take them far in life and there is no time like the present to practice it.  

Many times when they come to me it is sooooo tempting to just quickly solve the problem.  For me it hardly even registers on the "problem" scale and could be dealt with quickly and easily.  For them it will likely be a long, perhaps messy, ordeal which might very well involve throwing a tantrum.  Even so, every time they come to me I try to realistically assess if it is my problem (ran out of graph paper that I am in charge of buying) or their problem (electric toothbrush ran out of power and they are perfectly capable of changing the batteries).  The biggest favor I can do them is making them take responsibility for their own problems.

[EmilyGF]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

One thing I have always tried to do is very consciously avoid "depriving" my kids of opportunities to solve their own gosh darn problems.

 

Yes! As a CM educator, I'm big into the idea of "Masterly Inactivity." At its best, masterly inactivity is where an adult is present, knowledgeable, desiring to intervene because they could "fix" things so quickly, and holding themselves back for the good of the child. Being successful at problem solving in the little things, like putting away your own PJs as a little or unloading the dishwasher, builds confidence because you are actually capable. Often this involves scheduling in a bit of extra time so that my kids have the leisure of fixing their own problems throughout the day.

I actually gave a 90 minute talk on this, with examples of scaffolding bigger skills from very little ones, two years ago, which is why I'm so verbose here. *blush* It is also something I'm very passionate about because it opened so many doors for me.

Emily

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, mathmarm said:

Which is more along the lines of: 

• What are ways that you cultivate your child's environment or experiences to find a health ratio of  "Effort : Easy" in their life?
• What are some experiences that required you (when you were a child) or your child, to stick with it, that you feel helped (or will help) with developing resiliency?

When my dd was young I assumed it all boiled down to character, my influence, training, whatever. Then my dd got evals for her ADHD and this score came back, I'm not even sure what test was used to generate it, but it was basically *how well you stick to something*. And I'm like OH YOU MEAN SOMEONE CAN HAVE A DISABILITY IN THAT? 

So, you know, I'm really of the if they can they will camp. Or, as I was explaining so brilliantly to my dh today, the goals are competency and confidence. My ds has extremely poor frustration tolerance and emotional regulation, so we're extra methodical about how we work with him. There are just physical limits, and I don't think the developmental limits of the dc are necessarily our failure but more the parameters we respect and work with. I'm all about identifying where they're at and taking the next step. As long as you do that, you're golden. 

So with resiliency and frustration tolerance, I'm constantly seeking repeated activities that he can build *competence* in so he can be *confident* in his ability to do them and then begin to handle *curve balls* thrown at him. That can be finding things in the pantry, putting away clothes, doing independent work, anything. But if a dc is completely stumbling, I'm probably going to ask what precursor skills are lacking. My dd had significant trouble with some seemingly simple tasks, and she turned out to have underlying explanations (vision and attention problems, etc.). I'm slow to assume it's character. If they could, they would.

Effort to easy ratio? Oh mercy. Well what do you like yours to be? My ds has SLDs in every area, so for him technically EVERYTHING is hard. I mean EVERYTHING. Having a conversation is hard (ASD). Shopping is hard (waiting, sensory, math). Reading is hard (SLD Reading). Playing is hard (social, ASD). On and on. But you know sucky hard and brain tingling/satisfying are not the same either. So I try to keep the feel of the load successful, with very small steps (SLDs require this), and I put in intriguing things that get him to think. Patience in small, measured amounts that fit where he is developmentally. 

But do I MAX HIM OUT? Oh mercy. I used to do that with my dd inadvertently. She had such a low processing speed, so low, and she'd work so hard one day she just couldn't work the next. I had to be very careful to balance her load. I *seldom* have that happen with ds, but I'm typically working him at maybe a 60% cognitive load. If I up the level of difficulty (say doing therapy level intervention 2-3 hours a day), I'm going to drop everything else. 

If the dc can work the next day and wakes up happy, that's a good sign. If the dc can't go to bed because they didn't use up their brain energy, then maybe you need more. Somewhere in between there, so the dc is satisfied. You don't want your dc bored and understimulated and you don't want them exhausted either. You'll find the ratio for your dc. Apparently I only learned the hard way, lol.

[mathmarm]

12 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

I think sometimes it is actually easier to do so than we believe. The vast majority of people who see my kids out on their own think it is great.

We have the opposite problem in our area. We personally know 2 different families who have gotten DCF sicced on them for essentially Free Range Practices within the last couple of years. I won't even go into what I think of that but our area isn't particularly Kid-Friendly.

Some of the shops in our area don't allow children in without adults. Hubby once sent Jr and his cousin down a couple of aisles to get a couple of things and had someone come over and tell him that his kids were going around unsupervised in the store and to please watch them. 

We really do hope to move sooner rather than later, but in the meantime, we want to make an effort to do what we can where we are at with what we have.

I think that I do need to be more conscious of "troubleshooting" Jrs. problems throughout the day. He's gotten comfortable asking for help when he doesn't really need it and I have not been mindful of passing the responsibility back to him. 

 

[wendyroo]

10 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 they make more mistakes in the process of learning, so why do we prevent them from doing so, rather than providing the time and space to do so safely?  

Since my kids are 2e, I especially see this in the contrast between their academic learning and their non-academic learning.  

When it comes to school they rarely make mistakes and therefore expect things to come very easily.  In some ways their ease of academic learning is advantageous and convenient, but it does certainly keep me on my toes as their teacher trying to provide appropriate challenges and reassure them that some struggle is important for learning.

When it comes to the rest of life they make ALL the mistakes.  And on one hand I truly do have to carefully balance expectations with scaffolding and support, or the unrelenting struggle and failure can quickly overwhelm them.  But, on the other hand, if I err in the direction of setting expectations too low (which is a very easy thing to do) then I will actually be doing them a disservice, not a favor.

[EmilyGF]

52 minutes ago, mathmarm said:

We have the opposite problem in our area. We personally know 2 different families who have gotten DCF sicced on them for essentially Free Range Practices within the last couple of years. I won't even go into what I think of that but our area isn't particularly Kid-Friendly.

Some of the shops in our area don't allow children in without adults. Hubby once sent Jr and his cousin down a couple of aisles to get a couple of things and had someone come over and tell him that his kids were going around unsupervised in the store and to please watch them. 

We really do hope to move sooner rather than later, but in the meantime, we want to make an effort to do what we can where we are at with what we have.

I think that I do need to be more conscious of "troubleshooting" Jrs. problems throughout the day. He's gotten comfortable asking for help when he doesn't really need it and I have not been mindful of passing the responsibility back to him. 

 

Interesting. I think this is very regional. When we lived in California, I saw 1st graders riding bikes on their own to soccer practice in 2010, and in 2016, in Santa Barbara, a teacher thought it was strange that I would ask permission to pick up a 1st grader after school who wasn't my child. In our city, I needed written permission from the mom as well as a state-issued ID to pick up a 5th grader who wasn't mine. But, as I've said, I've had no issue with my kids walking places. Interesting. I live in Chicago, in a middle-class enclave in the inner city.

We live in a community with a lot of older people and they say things like, "We love seeing your kids play outside. It reminds us of when we were raising kids." I was expecting them to say things like, "Your kids bike too near my car" or "Get your kids away from the landscaping!!!"

Edited May 25, 2020 by EmilyGF

[Xahm]

I try to give my kids slightly more freedom than I feel comfortable with, which helps my confidence grow along with theirs. Some books encourage you to always go with your gut, but I know mine can be overactive. I ask myself "what's the worst thing I could reasonably expect to happen?" not "What's the worst that could happen?" I let my 6 and 7 year olds run, bike, or scooter to the end of our cul-de-sac and back and sometimes let them take the 3 year old along. Yes, there have been minor issues and once I had an interesting talk with a neighbor thanking him for his concern but assuring him everything was alright. I wish I could let them go further, but in the other end of the street there's a hill that creates a blind spot for cars and I don't trust the kids not to cut the corner yet, and it is a real risk they could be hit my a car. In normal times, I let them lead the way at the museum or zoo or hiking trail and sometimes let them take one route while I take another. I've stood at the door of the men's room coaching my 6 year old how to help the three year old wash his hands. From time to time my kids have been separated from me due to miscommunication, but they've handled it well and grown in ability and confidence. I'm not sure if what the next steps are at this point, especially as there are fewer opportunities to test things in public right now. I want to let the oldest plan a meal, shop, and cook it, and clean up soon, but that will have to wait until she can go to the store again. I can add responsibilities around the house, but I don't want to give more work without giving some corresponding freedom.

I have a friend who keeps her kids much, much closer and the oldest began having significant anxiety once she was expected to do things on her own, like go to the bathroom without an escort as a second grader. When the mother saw this, she did begin more intentional scaffolding as well as attempting to hide her own fears.

[wendyroo]

12 minutes ago, xahm said:

I'm not sure if what the next steps are at this point, especially as there are fewer opportunities to test things in public right now.

For us the next step was going to larger parks and nature trails and keeping the youngers with me while letting the oldest venture off on his own with a watch and an agreed meeting time and place.  We worked up to him being off on his own for about an hour; he would even sometimes pack himself a backpack with a snack, a compass, a nature journal, etc.  It made him feel very grownup.

[Xahm]

51 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

For us the next step was going to larger parks and nature trails and keeping the youngers with me while letting the oldest venture off on his own with a watch and an agreed meeting time and place.  We worked up to him being off on his own for about an hour; he would even sometimes pack himself a backpack with a snack, a compass, a nature journal, etc.  It made him feel very grownup.

That is a good idea and certainly puts me in the "slightly uncomfortable" range. I'll have to choose my timing carefully to avoid too many helpful adults, but I can think of a playground with a hiking trail that would work for that. I'd probably send the older two together and include a walkie talkie. 

[MeaganS]

I relate to this. I am very pro-free range in my mind but my gut is very helicoptery. I have to be very mindful of how much I'm sheltering for my own sake and how much is legitimate. My kids have been camping in our backyard lately. Our backyard is not fenced and in a weird place so is semi-visible to the area around us which makes it feel less safe to me than if it was fenced and private. And each time they do it I feel a bit nervous. But I've been working on it and recognize that my fear shouldn't hold them back from a perfectly fine activity. They set up the tent, bring out what they need, stay (all 4 of them, 11yo down to the 4yo) and then pack it up the next morning all on their own. I love being able to give them the independence and have been able to hide my nervousness.

The other day I had to push myself a little too. We were kayaking on a lake and were mostly done and eating lunch while waiting on my husband who had gone farther than us. My 8yo and 9yo had seen a cool looking spot they wanted to kayak to then climb out and explore. It wasn't crazy far but it was farther than I could see or yell. But I let them go and they had a blast and loved being able to explore for a little while on their own.
 

On 5/24/2020 at 8:06 PM, CuriousMomof3 said:

I agree with this sooooo much.  

I teach special education, and the opposite approach, of "helping" kids by removing the cognitive work from the task, is rampant.  I read a quote once that says that a defining characteristic of individuals with intellectual disabilities (the kids I teach, not implying anything about your kids) is that they make more mistakes in the process of learning, so why do we prevent them from doing so, rather than providing the time and space to do so safely?  

 

This is really hard. DD11 has many developmental and cognitive delays (ASD and ADHD among others) and the number one problem we've had parenting is to know when to push and when to back off. DH especially is a pusher, definitely to a fault sometimes. However, she has achieved so much and come so much farther than we ever thought she could and attribute that to consistently working with her. It is also difficult with her being our oldest to know when and how to appropriately push her sisters when they are developmentally capable of more than she is. There's a lot of navigating potential resentment because they don't recognize her struggles, they just think our scoffolding is unfair.

Ultimately I think time and freedom is the key to this. If there's something they want and they have the time to discover that and work towards it, then allowing them to try and work towards a goal is the best way. It has to come from them. I know that's how I accomplish things. And involving my kids in my process as I work on projects, from hearing me brainstorm to seeing me plan and learn, to figuring out what I'm going to do and actually doing it, solving problems along the way...that's how they've learned to work towards goals too.