Has mother's day always been about grandmothers?

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

I know. I have read a lot of your previous posts and they really resonate with me. There are some people on The Hive (one in particular and she knows who she is!) that have helped me to make sense of my reality.

I don't know what proper boundaries are in every case and I am a selfish person, so if someone tells me I'm being selfish it would make sense to me that I am.

MIL and I recently had another disagreement and I had outside help making a decision. You guys are great! I'm getting better.

Hey I had an insane most likely narcissist MIL for 26 years.  It was only the last few years of that marriage that I was able to stand up to her with out emotionally collapsing in a heap.  So I get it.  All the talk in the world about 'the choice is yours', and 'set appropriate boundaries' really won't be that easy to pull off if you are young and out of your league with the crazy. 

As for MD---well I am not the one to ask about that because I hate all commercial holidays.  I don't celebrate most on religious grounds, but all commercial holidays just grate on my nerves.  

I am glad you have escaped your MIL.

[Slache]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

1. you treat these type of people like you do a toddler.  "go have your tantrum in your room.  I'm not an audience."  do NOT tell them you think they're having a tantrum, just leave and let them snark to themselves.  Always have control of our interactions.  somewhere you can walk out when they are out of line.  don't discuss, just "I'll see you later" - and WALK AWAY.  

2. that's their problem.  they have zero right to expect you to buy them such expensive gifts.  they can "expect" all they want, you still don't have to buy it for them unless you want to.  if you're going to resent giving it to them - don't.  it's not going to give them (or you) a better life.  when someone "expects" gifts like that, they tend to get about five minutes of pleasure before they move on to the next trinket.  

3. you would not pay for it the rest of the year, unless you allowed them to impose their displeasure on you.  are they paying any of your bills?  providing any necessary family services?

4. Townend and Clouds: Boundaries, when to say yes, how to say no.  they also have a workbook.

5. first thing is you controlling the relationship.  they treat you with disrespect because you have allowed them to treat you with disrespect.  Be wiling to walk away/hang-up the phone etc.  take back control.

6. Most of these are confrontational. 

7. if they want something from you, that you don't want to do: "That doesn't work for me".  "why?" - because it doesn't.  no excuses, no reasons (which are seen as an opening by them to argue with you, it just "doesn't".

8. Please look at the videos on youtube by Dr. Ramani, Dr. Les Carter (surviving narcissim), and Joanna Kujath.

1. "do NOT tell them you think they're having a tantrum" Why not? 

2. This is one of those paying for it the rest of the year things.

3. Every conversation is about them not getting what they need, how selfish I am, etc. She would show up at my house and scream through the front door, call, smear campaign. I moved away and don't answer the phone. It's better now.

4. Excellent book! I need to do the workbook.

5. See, this is where the CPTSD comes in. I freeze up when I'm threatened and they know that. If they want something from me they get me alone, exert certain behaviors and then they get what they want. I've learned to say "I need to talk to DH about it."

6. Going to totally disagree with you here. I think it depends on who you're talking to and how it's used. The proper response to "You just think I'm a terrible person" is most likely not "That's possible" but that's been a great response to "I just think you would be happier if you did things my way." Example conversation as far as I can remember:

MIL: We're doing the wedding photos at this location even though SIL wants them here. I need you to get the party here at this time but don't tell SIL.
Me: Lying to SIL doesn't feel like it's in line with my integrity. These photos are for her wedding and I will be at her chosen location.
MIL: Yes, but I'm paying for them so I get to choose the location.
Me: I see you feel strongly about this, but you agreed to pay for this as a gift for her, not so that you could choose the location. If you don't think that's appropriate then maybe we can discuss it with her.
MIL: She's only chosen this location because she knows I won't like it.
Me: That's possible.
MIL: (Yelling) You guys do not get to make this decision.
Me: I think we should talk about this when you're feeling calmer, and with SIL present as the photos are for her.

I do not consider this confrontational.

7. LOL! Yeah, that would never fly. That would be very loud very quickly.

8. Yes, I have watched them all. Meredith Miller should be on that list.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Slache

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Slache said:

I don't know what proper boundaries are in every case and I am a selfish person, so if someone tells me I'm being selfish it would make sense to me that I am.

 

Sometimes, the right thing is to be selfish.  Selfish does not equal being mean. I think a lot of times, people will say "That's selfish!", but they say it in a way that really means "I think you are mean!"  A variant meaning is "I think you are mean for not doing what I want!!!"...which is actually selfish. 

What's the worst that happens if you act with your and your immediate familiy's best interests at heart? What would happen if you "owned" the selfish label and stopped worrying what they thought about you? Do you even like these people? If not, then...maybe it's ok to not sacrifice your own happiness for them. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

1. "do NOT tell them you think they're having a tantrum" Why not? 

Because you can't handle the reaction you'll get.

5. See, this is where the CPTSD comes in. I freeze up when I'm threatened and they know that. If they want something from me they get me alone, exert certain behaviors and then they get what they want. I've learned to say "I need to talk to DH about it."

It's good you found a way out of it, but if you need to, try and learn to use the freezing by stone walling when she's behaving badly, even if you aren't feeling affected by it. They obfuscate, you can too.

6. Going to totally disagree with you here. I think it depends on who you're talking to and how it's used. The proper response to "You just think I'm a terrible person" is most likely not "That's possible" but that's been a great response to "I just think you would be happier if you did things my way." Example conversation as far as I can remember:

MIL: We're doing the wedding photos at this location even though SIL wants them here. I need you to get the party here at this time but don't tell SIL.
Me: Lying to SIL doesn't feel like it's in line with my integrity. These photos are for her wedding and I will be at her chosen location.
MIL: Yes, but I'm paying for them so I get to choose the location.
Me: I see you feel strongly about this, but you agreed to pay for this as a gift for her, not so that you could choose the location. If you don't think that's appropriate then maybe we can discuss it with her.
MIL: She's only chosen this location because she knows I won't like it.
Me: That's possible.
MIL: (Yelling) You guys do not get to make this decision.
Me: I think we should talk about this when you're feeling calmer, and with SIL present as the photos are for her.

I do not consider this confrontational.

It is most definitely confrontational!  I'll bet she heard you call her a liar, say she has no integrity and you do, scold her, suggest she's the sort of person SIL would quite reasonably want to spite, then you shamed her for being emotional.

 

[Slache]

@Rosie_0801

Confrontational. Ok. I was trying to deescalate and it worked. What am I supposed to do then?

[Slache]

Just now, StellaM said:

Have you considered going no contact with your MIL?

Absolutely. Not an option for our family, I wish that it was.

[teachermom2834]

My very first Mothers’ Day:

Dh and I were just 23 yo and lived 600 miles from any family. I had just had a difficult delivery a week ago (injured a nerve during delivery and I didn’t have full use of one leg/foot so I was hobbling around and recovering from all the other childbirth stuff). My baby was having trouble nursing and was failing to thrive so we were dealing with that and getting visits from a home health aide managing jaundice treatment. It was rough! 
 

So...MIL flies in and dh leaves me to get her from the airport. She walks in, puts her feet up on the coffee table and says to dh “Well it is Mother’s Day so you are taking care of me today!” So dh and I struggled to get a dinner on the table and serve her. But never again.

My own mother never acted like she cared about birthdays, Mother’s’ Day, etc. and we believed her. But around about the time I was in college she started getting really hostile that no one celebrated these things for her.  I’m about the same age and I didn’t care when I was younger but I’m starting to more now. It might be a midlife type thing in our cases. 
 

Everyone is so different. I am very resistant to do anything to put any pressure on my adult sons. It just doesn’t seem helpful in the long term. So I can’t imagine trying to call the shots as a grandmother.

[Rosie_0801]

42 minutes ago, Slache said:

@Rosie_0801

Confrontational. Ok. I was trying to deescalate and it worked. What am I supposed to do then?

 

Whatever works, of course! 

(For the record, I don't care if you are nice to your MIL or not. 😛 )

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Everyone is so different.

I think this is the whole thing. See, to me it means I get to relax which I can't do if I spend the day gardening and getting sick. To my mom it's doing her favorite activity with her only child. We can't do both on the same day.

I hope you have better MDs now.

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Whatever works, of course! 
 

Then I'm going to be confrontational! No. I read the conversation to DH and he said that that situation called for a confrontation (we are not going to do this thing you say we're doing), I "won" and I got out unscathed which as far as he knows no one has ever done. I've done it twice since and I will argue, confrontationally, that it is deescalating, which is what I need. He said there is no other way I could have handled it without it getting violent (it was a bad day for her), so even if I'm calling her out for having no integrity, if simply saying "I'm not going to do that" or "no" is significantly more dangerous then I will be rude, confrontational, and selfish, because it makes our visits more tolerable, even if only for our family.

[Slache]

19 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

My own mother never acted like she cared about birthdays, Mother’s’ Day, etc. and we believed her. But around about the time I was in college she started getting really hostile that no one celebrated these things for her.  I’m about the same age and I didn’t care when I was younger but I’m starting to more now. It might be a midlife type thing in our cases. 

I've been thinking about this. I don't care about Mother's day, Christmas, birthdays for the most part. My original statement was that I just don't want to do things I hate all day. I'm surrounded by small children that love me and I'm happy.

But contrast my experience with a mother of teens who have their own lives and are not constantly doting on mom. She might care more.

[Slache]

21 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

(For the record, I don't care if you are nice to your MIL or not. 😛 )

I'm learning to feel the same way.

[gardenmom5]

 

2 hours ago, Slache said:

1. "do NOT tell them you think they're having a tantrum" Why not? 

2. This is one of those paying for it the rest of the year things.

3. Every conversation is about them not getting what they need, how selfish I am, etc. She would show up at my house and scream through the front door, call, smear campaign. I moved away and don't answer the phone. It's better now.

4. Excellent book! I need to do the workbook.

5. See, this is where the CPTSD comes in. I freeze up when I'm threatened and they know that. If they want something from me they get me alone, exert certain behaviors and then they get what they want. I've learned to say "I need to talk to DH about it."

6. Going to totally disagree with you here. I think it depends on who you're talking to and how it's used. The proper response to "You just think I'm a terrible person" is most likely not "That's possible" but that's been a great response to "I just think you would be happier if you did things my way." Example conversation as far as I can remember:

MIL: We're doing the wedding photos at this location even though SIL wants them here. I need you to get the party here at this time but don't tell SIL.
Me: Lying to SIL doesn't feel like it's in line with my integrity.  (this could be left out.)  These photos are for her wedding and I will be at her chosen location.  (this is good.  that isn't really confrontational - that's "informing her" you will go with what SIL said.)
MIL: Yes, but I'm paying for them so I get to choose the location.
Me: I see you feel strongly about this, but you agreed to pay for this as a gift for her, not so that you could choose the location. If you don't think that's appropriate then maybe we can discuss it with her.
MIL: She's only chosen this location because she knows I won't like it.
Me: That's possible.
MIL: (Yelling) You guys do not get to make this decision.
Me: I think we should talk about this when you're feeling calmer, and with SIL present as the photos are for her.

~ i'd have just kept repeating:   These photos are for her wedding and I will be at her chosen location.  I no longer try to teach pigs to sing.  it isn't worth the aggravation.

I do not consider this confrontational.

7. LOL! Yeah, that would never fly. That would be very loud very quickly.

8. Yes, I have watched them all. Meredith Miller should be on that list.

Have you done any therapy for the CPTSD?   I had very good outcome from EMDR.  It helps to pull the emotion out of the amygdala so it can be processed and let go.   TRE's (trauma release exercises) is something you can do at home, and is also supposed to be very effective for PTSD - so I'd think it would help with CPTSD.   I recall after one session - I went out to my car and screamed for 20 minutes.  I really think i'd come a long way before I even started it, so I was well down the path of healing at that point.

I remember when I would freeze (Pavlov has nothing on narcissists for conditioned response.) , it was only as I started healing could I stand up to her.  little bits at a time.  Then I was stuck with my brother.  But the biggest help - was not giving a flying fig what he thought or had to say.  He wasn't worth my time.  While my mother was alive, I had to deal with him.  He was very much trying to manipulate her, and as her mental health declined, she was less able to put him off.   

So- -do remember, that "freezing" . . is a conditioned response because you're not automatically saying "yes, how high do you want me to jump?" when issued and "order'.  You are NOT selfish for refusing to jump, even though part of the conditioning is you are selfish for not doing exactly what she wants.

 

I did once tell my mil that i was so glad I could meet her need for anger? whatever, so she'd have something to complain about.  I was very young, very early in the recovery from my grandmother, and not able to stand up for myself.  now - that's where I was, but a more mature me would  have handled better.  (even though she ranted for the next half-hour how she didnt' like being angry.  big eye roll.  she loved to tell people what to do.  she had nothing on my grandmother.)   

 

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

 

Sometimes, the right thing is to be selfish.  Selfish does not equal being mean. I think a lot of times, people will say "That's selfish!", but they say it in a way that really means "I think you are mean!"  A variant meaning is "I think you are mean for not doing what I want!!!"...which is actually selfish. 

What's the worst that happens if you act with your and your immediate familiy's best interests at heart? What would happen if you "owned" the selfish label and stopped worrying what they thought about you? Do you even like these people? If not, then...maybe it's ok to not sacrifice your own happiness for them. 

 

It is not selfish to choose what is mentally and emotionally healthy.  It is not selfish to refuse to be manipulated. It is not selfish/mean to prevent an abuser from abusing anyone - even if that "anyone" is yourself.

A narcissist will call it selfish - but that doesn't make it selfish.  The Pavlovian response the narcissist has programed into those around them will call it selfish - but that doesn't make it selfish.

 

 

34 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

My very first Mothers’ Day:

Dh and I were just 23 yo and lived 600 miles from any family. I had just had a difficult delivery a week ago (injured a nerve during delivery and I didn’t have full use of one leg/foot so I was hobbling around and recovering from all the other childbirth stuff). My baby was having trouble nursing and was failing to thrive so we were dealing with that and getting visits from a home health aide managing jaundice treatment. It was rough! 
 

So...MIL flies in and dh leaves me to get her from the airport. She walks in, puts her feet up on the coffee table and says to dh “Well it is Mother’s Day so you are taking care of me today!” So dh and I struggled to get a dinner on the table and serve her. But never again.

My own mother never acted like she cared about birthdays, Mother’s’ Day, etc. and we believed her. But around about the time I was in college she started getting really hostile that no one celebrated these things for her.  I’m about the same age and I didn’t care when I was younger but I’m starting to more now. It might be a midlife type thing in our cases. 
 

Everyone is so different. I am very resistant to do anything to put any pressure on my adult sons. It just doesn’t seem helpful in the long term. So I can’t imagine trying to call the shots as a grandmother.

wow.  Me of today would have called a hotel and sent her there.

My mil did something similar to my 1sil.  4th baby, difficult delivery,  new house.  mil was supposed to be helping her.   mil rearranged her big huge farm kitchen that sil had only recently finished setting up.  we can all laugh about it now - in a shuddering sort of way.  even the time when dh and I came home from vacation a day early, she did come running outside before we were even out of the car "you're not supposed to be home yet."   all of our bedroom furniture was in the living room.  all our clothes. "I'm cleaning your room".   the carpet was three months old in a brand new house.  the woman was nuts.  I had a six month old baby, had had a C-section, and just had (was scheduled for) another major abdominal surgery that summer.

2sil did come up with a self-defense plan.  she had a list of things for her to do whenever she was at her house.  every single time she came.  there was a list she had to do - and it kept her busy.  understand, this woman didn't sleep more than about five hours a night.

[Slache]

56 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 1. Lying to SIL doesn't feel like it's in line with my integrity.  (this could be left out.)

2. ~ i'd have just kept repeating:   These photos are for her wedding and I will be at her chosen location.

3. Have you done any therapy for the CPTSD?   I had very good outcome from EMDR.  It helps to pull the emotion out of the amygdala so it can be processed and let go.   TRE's (trauma release exercises) is something you can do at home, and is also supposed to be very effective for PTSD - so I'd think it would help with CPTSD.   I recall after one session - I went out to my car and screamed for 20 minutes.  I really think i'd come a long way before I even started it, so I was well down the path of healing at that point.

4. I remember when I would freeze (Pavlov has nothing on narcissists for conditioned response.) , it was only as I started healing could I stand up to her.  little bits at a time.  Then I was stuck with my brother.  But the biggest help - was not giving a flying fig what he thought or had to say.  He wasn't worth my time.  While my mother was alive, I had to deal with him.  He was very much trying to manipulate her, and as her mental health declined, she was less able to put him off.   

5. I did once tell my mil that i was so glad I could meet her need for anger? whatever, so she'd have something to complain about.  I was very young, very early in the recovery from my grandmother, and not able to stand up for myself.  now - that's where I was, but a more mature me would  have handled better.  (even though she ranted for the next half-hour how she didnt' like being angry.  big eye roll.  she loved to tell people what to do.  she had nothing on my grandmother.)   

6. wow. 

1. Yes, but it was intentional. There are a series of things (mostly lying) that I am expected to participate in and I'm going to just keep repeating that each time until she stops.

2. That would not have worked with her.

3. No. I didn't even realize that I was abused until a few years ago. I will google this now.

4. "was not giving a flying fig what he thought or had to say" I need to be here. They hate me and I won't change that. I will always be the selfish brat that destroyed the family so I'm going to do what Lemon suggested and embrace that.

5. "i was so glad I could meet her need for anger" Can I... can I put that on my list?

6. I know!

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

It is not selfish to choose what is mentally and emotionally healthy.  It is not selfish to refuse to be manipulated. It is not selfish/mean to prevent an abuser from abusing anyone - even if that "anyone" is yourself.

A narcissist will call it selfish - but that doesn't make it selfish.  The Pavlovian response the narcissist has programed into those around them will call it selfish - but that doesn't make it selfish.

 

Right, that was my point. Toxic people will call you selfish and mean when you don't give them what they want. It's not selfish or mean. 

[Shoeless]

20 minutes ago, Slache said:

4. "was not giving a flying fig what he thought or had to say" I need to be here. They hate me and I won't change that. I will always be the selfish brat that destroyed the family so I'm going to do what Lemon suggested and embrace that.

 

If their family was so great and strong, no one would have been able to "destroy" it 😉 

I doubt your MIL has the self-awareness to realize it, but the reason they don't like you is because you've probably exposed the problems in the family. If only you hadn't shown up and acted like a normal person, then no one would have had to change! 

As for your original question about Mother's Day, I don't remember the day being particularly about the grandmother's. There was usually a "family dinner" at someone's house, and maybe flowers or cards were given, but it wasn't a big "This is my special daaaaaaaaay!!!!!" type event. 

[MercyA]

15 hours ago, hjffkj said:

Mother's Day has always been about me and when I was a kid it was all about my mom. 

Yes, this. I remember my parents calling their moms on Mother's Day, or perhaps dropping by with a plant or something for them, but the day itself was always about the "current generation" of moms with children still at home. Even then it was never a huge deal. Maybe lunch out and cards from the kids. Sometimes mothers were given small gifts or flowers at church. I never thought to wish my grandmothers happy mother's day; they were loved, but not my mother!

I'd be happy to do away with the holiday entirely. My mom knows I love her and I know my daughter loves me. This sounds sensitive and selfish, but I hated Mother's Day-focused church services when I was unable to have a baby. I imagine they are painful for a great many other people for various reasons as well.

 

[gardenmom5]

32 minutes ago, Slache said:

1. Yes, but it was intentional. There are a series of things (mostly lying) that I am expected to participate in and I'm going to just keep repeating that each time until she stops.

2. That would not have worked with her.

3. No. I didn't even realize that I was abused until a few years ago. I will google this now.

4. "was not giving a flying fig what he thought or had to say" I need to be here. They hate me and I won't change that. I will always be the selfish brat that destroyed the family so I'm going to do what Lemon suggested and embrace that.

5. "i was so glad I could meet her need for anger" Can I... can I put that on my list?

6. I know!

when reality clashes with our hopes and expectations . . . there is mourning.  we are mourning for reality not being the good thing we were hoping for.  we mourn that family members greeting card section/hallmark channel "tells us" are so supposed to be so wonderful - aren't.  Not only are they not wonderful, we're blamed for ripping the blinders off and not just shutting up and being good little minions.

They also demonstrate - their opinions aren't worth anything.  They can call us a selfish brat - but that doesn't make us one.   when someone never speaks well of anyone, (listen closely, they really don't.  a backhanded complement isnt' a complement.) - it's not worth expecting to hear something from them.

I was punished by my grandmother for refusing to suck up to her - she's been dead for 25 years, and i'm the one who got the last laugh.

#5 - I understand the desire, I said it.  I was very young, and still very damaged from my own family.  now, where I am - It wasn't worth it.   mil was nuts, and could be manipulative and lie to get her way - but if I had it to do over, I'd have just let it slide.  It wasn't worth it.  Learning to let my grandmother's mind games go, to not play her games, to have boundaries with her (and my brother) - has been worth so much more and brought me peace in a way those types of comments never could.

Dr. Ramani has a video on narcissistic baiting.  I admit I haven't watched it.  I know *exactly* what she means!  my grandmother would bait - so she could then cut you down. (and then that smirk and giggle.)  I had caught myself baiting her, just so I could do to her what she did to me.  I didn't want to be her.  Even though she was the only person I did that with ,I didn't want to be the kind of person who would do it to anyone.  Even if she was the only person I did it with - I was still being like her in that moment. This vile woman who wrecked havoc in people's lives and left a trail of misery.   So, I stopped.  I chose to be a better person.

[MercyA]

@Slache, you've had a lot of challenges in life, but you turned out so very cool. 😎 Well done. And Happy Belated Mother's Day. 😉 

[Slache]

12 minutes ago, MercyA said:

This sounds sensitive and selfish, but I hated Mother's Day-focused church services when I was unable to have a baby. I imagine they are painful for a great many other people for various reasons as well.

This bothered me. We had a very small church. Some couldn't have kids and some had kids that didn't speak to them. I didn't need the church to recognize me (give me a rose) and not them. I'm with you 100% on that.

11 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Dr. Ramani has a video on narcissistic baiting.  I admit I haven't watched it.  I know *exactly* what she means!  my grandmother would bait - so she could then cut you down. (and then that smirk and giggle.)  I had caught myself baiting her, just so I could do to her what she did to me.  I didn't want to be her.  Even though she was the only person I did that with ,I didn't want to be the kind of person who would do it to anyone.  Even if she was the only person I did it with - I was still being like her in that moment. This vile woman who wrecked havoc in people's lives and left a trail of misery.   So, I stopped.  I chose to be a better person.

I watched that one! The whole glossary series is great. My NPD doesn't bait. You and I have very different narcissists.

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

@Slache, you've had a lot of challenges in life, but you turned out so very cool. 😎 Well done. And Happy Belated Mother's Day. 😉 

Lol! Thanks! 99% of my challenges are behind me. I'm a very happy wife and mother.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

 . This sounds sensitive and selfish, but I hated Mother's Day-focused church services when I was unable to have a baby. I imagine they are painful for a great many other people for various reasons as well.

 

I hated Mother's Day too, even though I had kids.    All the saccharine cloyingly sweet "My mother was so wonderful" talks . . . gag me with a spork!  I came from a dysfunctional family that would cross over into abusive. (At the hands of the adult females that gave me their mitochondrial DNA.)  I would have been happier if my mother had died and my father had lived!  I had years I wouldn't go to church on Mother's Day.  Give me the dead flower and chocolate and I'm gone.

My favorite Mother's Day talk of all time - was a teen who gave a litany of the disasters of the week because mom was out of town for the week visiting an adult child.  It was hysterical.  It was funny because it wasn't meant to be - but it was reality.

Now I   tolerate it - my Birthday falls the first week of May (and 1ds's is the third week.)  Mother's Day bounces back and forth like a game of pong. . . . We have a family dinner.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

 v

I watched that one! The whole glossary series is great. My NPD doesn't bait. You and I have very different narcissists.

 

There are  quiet a few different types.  Listening to the descriptions, my grandmother seems closest to Covert.  

I did like Dr. Ramani's comment.  A lot of people want to defend them claiming they just dont' have empathy. Her comment was - and this is what makes this a choice vs a mental illness. They do - they dont' care to use it.

There was a difference between my mil and my grandmother.  I strongly believe there was something wrong in my mil's brain, and that it was out of her power.  My grandmother had a lot more of a choice. 

I was talking with an older woman who was really wanting to learn about all of this, as it was explaining her husband and one of her daughters'.   She'd had the insight many many years previously, her (now deceased) dh had something wrong in his brain that caused him to be that way - but her dd had more choice.  (but was influenced by her father's behavior.)  She was able to share the information with her son-in-law.  He was very appreciative as it helped him to deal with his wife. (and protect the children.)

years ago I did reading on TBIs and how it affects the brain and capacity.  2dd's bff (since they were 12!) is a clinical psych that specializes in TBI's.  we've chatted about it a couple times.

[JustEm]

7 hours ago, MercyA said:

Yes, this. I remember my parents calling their moms on Mother's Day, or perhaps dropping by with a plant or something for them, but the day itself was always about the "current generation" of moms with children still at home. Even then it was never a huge deal. Maybe lunch out and cards from the kids. Sometimes mothers were given small gifts or flowers at church. I never thought to wish my grandmothers happy mother's day; they were loved, but not my mother!

I'd be happy to do away with the holiday entirely. My mom knows I love her and I know my daughter loves me. This sounds sensitive and selfish, but I hated Mother's Day-focused church services when I was unable to have a baby. I imagine they are painful for a great many other people for various reasons as well.

 

We do not put a huge emphasis on Mother's Day. It gets acknowledged and I don't have to do a single chore on that day if I don't want to. Some kids make cards when they feel like it but no gifts ever.  I like having one day where I know I won't have to change a single diaper, make a single meal, fold a single piece of laundry, load a single dish in the dishwasher, etc.  I like that the kids ask which of my normal jobs they can take over for the day, even though I don't expect them to and dh has never asked them to.  They have just grown up watching him taking over any tasks that hadn't gotten done over the year. Dh treats me amazingly all year long and the kids to do for the most part(I am their emotional punching bag sometimes though.) I don't need MD but it is nice that it is there/

However, I do not like any church services centered around it and wouldn't participate.  I don't need strangers acknowledging me as a mother. It is not a comfort to me to know that they are celebrating me, especially if it is hurting others.

[marbel]

8 hours ago, MercyA said:

<snip>

This sounds sensitive and selfish, but I hated Mother's Day-focused church services when I was unable to have a baby. I imagine they are painful for a great many other people for various reasons as well.

 

I don't think it sounds that way at all. But I have discovered that how a church handles Mother's Day is important to me. If every time I needed to find a new church I could go visit on Mother's Day, it could save a lot of time and trouble. 

One time I walked into a fairly new-to-me church on M Day and was confronted with someone with roses ready  to pin on all the women. I was asked (basically, not in these words) if my mother was alive or not. The answer determined the color of rose the woman pinned on me. I was just appalled. As it happens, that was the first  M day after my mother died.  And it turns out, that church was not a good fit for us at all, for many reasons, and we didn't stay there long. That was my only time confronting that particular horror, but other churches highlighted it in other ways - topical sermons, some sort of weird presentation. Those churches never worked out for us long term; it seems a church that focuses on M Day in a way I/we don't like, focuses on other things that don't seem right to us. 

All the churches I have loved and stayed with until moving away have celebrated M Day like this:  in the announcements, the pastor/leader acknowledges the day. Then during the corporate prayer, women-as-mothers are prayed for (current mothers, bereaved mothers, women who want to be mothers, etc). It's always stated more elegantly than that  of course.

And that's it. No big announcements, no topical sermons, no Proverbs 31 references so I can go home and ponder all the ways I don't measure up. Normal church service, go home and enjoy the day.

Edited May 23, 2020 by marbel

[BlsdMama]

Mother's Day is about mothers.  Mothers who were once mothers are always mothers.  Mothers who have older children are still mothers.  There is little unique about mothers with young children.  Mothers day is about honoring the sacrifices that come with motherhood.

I'm going to be honest in that I think celebrating every freaking day of everything leads to entitlement of selfishness.  "It's my birthday, so..." "It's my...." If anyone is being a jerk, it's not okay just because we slap a justification on it and that goes for anyone.

I do not understand, nor I doubt will I ever understand, the ridiculous overblowness of it.  Then again, gifts is my least relatable love language.  I adore breakfast in bed that my kids make but is it fit worthy? This year, for the first time ever, we couldn't do that one tradition. (My diet requires fasting and a smoothie.  It stunk.) Such is life.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't feel I need the ENTIRE day nor do I need to negate anyone else's motherhood nor do they need to suck up the ENTIRE day.  We visit each of our mothers and take them a plant and a handful of kid made cards.  We wish them a happy mother's day, we tell them we love them, we do something I feel like doing and I pick a meal.  

Often, our hyped expectations are what disappoints us in life.  
 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Mother's Day is about mothers.  Mothers who were once mothers are always mothers.  Mothers who have older children are still mothers.  There is little unique about mothers with young children.  Mothers day is about honoring the sacrifices that come with motherhood.

I'm going to be honest in that I think celebrating every freaking day of everything leads to entitlement of selfishness.  "It's my birthday, so..." "It's my...." If anyone is being a jerk, it's not okay just because we slap a justification on it and that goes for anyone.

I do not understand, nor I doubt will I ever understand, the ridiculous overblowness of it.  Then again, gifts is my least relatable love language.  I adore breakfast in bed that my kids make but is it fit worthy? This year, for the first time ever, we couldn't do that one tradition. (My diet requires fasting and a smoothie.  It stunk.) Such is life.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't feel I need the ENTIRE day nor do I need to negate anyone else's motherhood nor do they need to suck up the ENTIRE day.  We visit each of our mothers and take them a plant and a handful of kid made cards.  We wish them a happy mother's day, we tell them we love them, we do something I feel like doing and I pick a meal.  

Often, our hyped expectations are what disappoints us in life.  
 

And we can thank commercialism for this to a large extent.  I am hyper aware of the influence of advertisers. It really affects the way I view a lot of purchases.  I don’t want to be manipulated by people trying to sell stuff.  

Edited May 23, 2020 by Scarlett

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, hjffkj said:

We do not put a huge emphasis on Mother's Day. It gets acknowledged and I don't have to do a single chore on that day if I don't want to.

Yes. 🙂 My family asked what I wanted for Mother's Day, and I said that I didn't want to make food for anyone else for the whole day. LOL. It was great.

[MercyA]

33 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Oh! I bought myself one of these notebook covers "for mothers day" this year. Aren't they adorable! 

Those are STINKING adorable. ❤️

[KungFuPanda]

My Mother’s Day ritual is I don’t have to feed anyone all day and we get Indian take-out for dinner. I’ve NEVER had any desire to go to any restaurant that day. It’s just too insanely crowded and that’s not my idea of a good time.  Grandmothers get a phone call. If we want a multi-generational restaurant experience, we do it during the week before or after; never Saturday or Sunday. I will never understand people who HAVE to do stuff ON the exact day. If those people exist they have up on DH and me years ago and are torturing some other family. We’re not hoop jumpers. I was a born people-pleaser, but DH has taught me his ways. 🤣

[Slache]

10 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

They do - they dont' care to use it.

If we had no empathy they would not be able to hurt you so well. Have you studied all cluster Bs? My MIL is a cluster B, but not NPD.

Also, about it being a choice. What makes NPD a disorder is that they're disordered. I said I can be selfish (narcissistic), but I try not to be. NPDs don't think they're being selfish, they think that's how things should be. A narcissist will bite off their nose to spite their face to get what they want, a selfish person will not.

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

EDIT: I am so sorry. I replied without reading the second page, and the convo had taken a whole different turn. Should have known!

Oh! I bought myself one of these notebook covers "for mothers day" this year. Aren't they adorable! 

Look up Chic Sparrow.

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

And we can thank commercialism for this to a large extent.

I know! I hate the fact that I can get Happy Mother's Day texts from like 40 people. Please don't waste your time on me. I don't need that. And my birthday is very shortly before Christmas and people tend to forget it and then feel really bad. I don't need anyone to remember my birthday, and I certainly don't need anyone to feel bad for forgetting it. Stop complicating things. Chill. It's ok.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

If we had no empathy they would not be able to hurt you so well. Have you studied all cluster Bs? My MIL is a cluster B, but not NPD.

 

Dr Ramani was saying it's the narcissist who has empathy but doesn't care, not those one the receiving end of their mind games.

My focus has been on understanding my grandmother.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

My Mother’s Day ritual is I don’t have to feed anyone all day and we get Indian take-out for dinner. I’ve NEVER had any desire to go to any restaurant that day. It’s just too insanely crowded and that’s not my idea of a good time.  Grandmothers get a phone call. If we want a multi-generational restaurant experience, we do it during the week before or after; never Saturday or Sunday. I will never understand people who HAVE to do stuff ON the exact day. If those people exist they have up on DH and me years ago and are torturing some other family. We’re not hoop jumpers. I was a born people-pleaser, but DH has taught me his ways. 🤣

supposedly it's a good day for Disney - as it's a lower crowd count.

[KungFuPanda]

59 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

supposedly it's a good day for Disney - as it's a lower crowd count.

I’m guessing that still means crowded by normal standards. 🤣

[Spy Car]

My advice?

Celebrate your children's grandmothers while you can.

Bill (who is in mourning)

Edited May 23, 2020 by Spy Car

[dirty ethel rackham]

This has been on my mind lately.  When my mom was alive, there was always this pressure to do something for my mom for Mother's day.  I would have been happy to have someone just clean my house and cater food and have my siblings families over.  But, the reality was that either I had to find a place to have a meal for 20+ people that accommodated everyone's schedules or I had to spend 2 days cleaning and host everyone said 20 people. It's not that I didn't enjoy spending time with her and she certainly wasn't a narcissist who expected it to be all about her ... she just wanted her family to be together and celebrate with all of us.  I just didn't want the responsibility of all the work and planning.  If I didn't do it, nobody else would and my mom would be hurt.  There was a part of me that resented the expectation.  

Now that I am nearly an empty nester, I get why Mother's Day was important to my mom.  To tell you the truth ... I am lonely.  I miss my kids.  And I would love to spend time with them.  

[Tanaqui]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

My advice?

Celebrate your children's grandmothers while you can.

Bill (who is in mourning)

 

Some people mourn because they lost somebody they loved, and Bill, I'm sorry you have to be in that group.

Some people mourn because the people who ought to have loved them and cared for them, their own parents, did no such thing. No matter how sad your own circumstances are, it is inappropriate to tell people with toxic parents or in-laws that they should "celebrate" those people.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Tanaqui

[Slache]

46 minutes ago, StellaM said:

All I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated.

You know this is utterly reasonable, right?

 

Can't dh just go and take her out for lunch or something? 

Lol! Yes. That was my point. They said it was because mother's day is about them, so I did what I always do and I started a thread. Lots of good, varied responses.

We moved away because this was an everyday thing, not a mother's day thing, and I got tired.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Some people mourn because they lost somebody they loved, and Bill, I'm sorry you have to be in that group.

Some people mourn because the people who ought to have loved them and cared for them, their own parents, did no such thing. No matter how sad your own circumstances are, it is inappropriate to tell people with toxic parents or in-laws that they should "celebrate" those people.

This.

I've been told many times that one day I would be sorry she was dead.

It's been 25 years since my grandmother died.  the ONLY thing I'm sorry about is: now I know the family history questions to ask, and she's not here to answer.

Even my mother felt nothing but relief.

[Slache]

Hi!

Ok. I found my old notes and I called my phrases "deflective phrases." The point is not to get into a screaming match and by deflecting the statement instead of saying "no" there is no screaming.

And regarding Bill's comment. I am 100% on board with the two replies, but my kids love their grandparents. I don't need to set myself on fire to keep other people warm, but we do and will continue to celebrate these people.

[Slache]

6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Sorry that I missed the point. My reading comprehension is lacking today!

I'm not good at making my point.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Some people mourn because they lost somebody they loved, and Bill, I'm sorry you have to be in that group.

Some people mourn because the people who ought to have loved them and cared for them, their own parents, did no such thing. No matter how sad your own circumstances are, it is inappropriate to tell people with toxic parents or in-laws that they should "celebrate" those people.

Even with people you love, it's okay to set boundaries, it's good to set boundaries. You don't have to do everything people want in order to 'celebrate' them. 

[Paige]

In my family it was Mothers' Day; not Mother's Day. It means that all the moms are celebrated and cared for. We would do something for my mom, grandmothers, aunts, and any cousins who were moms and wanted to come over. It would have been selfish and unthinkable for any one mom to insist it was only her day. If my mom felt slighted to share it with her mom and MIL, she kept it to herself. I think my grandmother would have been hurt if her daughters ignored her on Mothers' Day (they were all within driving distance) but she wouldn't have wanted to insist on something that nobody else wanted to do. 

When I lived near my mom it was similar. We communicated together about how we wanted to celebrate. I don't think what you are describing is healthy or normal.

[J-rap]

In my family, Mother's Day has been quite casual and accommodating.  Anyone was welcome!   Well, when I was a child, we lived across the country from any relative, so it was easy.  Our little family would go out to eat and that was always really special.

But after that, we just kind of went with it each year.  We'd see who was around, if it was picnic weather, etc., and throw something together.  It might involve grandparents, aunts and cousins, or it might be just a very small gathering.  But, both our mothers were always very kind and supportive, however it went.  As my mother got older, we wanted to make the day more about her, and I'm glad we did.   She's pretty special, and a week after Mother's Day last year, she had a stroke which triggered pretty severe dementia.   Now, Mother's Day feels like no big deal to me at all.  It's mostly about acknowledging the day and enjoying my kids who still want to celebrate it for me in a special (though never extravagant) way.  🙂  But I'd probably just as soon skip it!  It just feels so unimportant now.

[City Mouse]

I don’t have anything productive to contribute, but I am sorry that there are so many of you that have had to deal with this. 
My mother thinks I act like a teenager. I will politely listen to whatever she has to say with no comment and then do what I want anyway. If that is her definition of a teenager, then I have to admit I do behave that way even at 50+ yrs old.

[gardenmom5]

11 hours ago, katilac said:

Even with people you love, it's okay to set boundaries, it's good to set boundaries. You don't have to do everything people want in order to 'celebrate' them. 

Boundaries are healthy.

mom's set boundaries with their toddlers not following them into the bathroom all the time.  we set boundaries with the dogs to not follow us in the bathroom . . . .  

both toddlers and dogs will sit outside the bathroom door . . . . .