Has mother's day always been about grandmothers?

[Slache]

I can't sleep. So.

When my mom was in my life she insisted I spend mother's day at her house gardening. I hate gardening. And she's nasty to me. And I'd have a rash for days. MIL (opposite side of the country) insists we spend the day shopping at a place I can't stand and eating at literally the only restaraunt in history I don't like.

If I object to either I'm told it's mother's day and I'm selfish if I don't go along, that this is how mother's day works. I live by neither of these women anymore so this isn't an issue, but it bugs me. How come I didn't get a mother's day? I'm the one who is actively mothering. Am I supposed to wait until they're gone and I can ruin my daughter's mother's day?

So, am I wrong? Selfish? And if this is new when did it start, because I know a lot of other young moms with the same complaint.

[Slache]

For the record, the reason I posted is because I realized two things. 1. When my husband and I were young mother's day was about our mothers, not grandmothers, so this is not "how it's been" for our families. 2. Father's day is about my husband, not our fathers. We buy them gifts, but the day isn't about them.

I know this isn't an issue just with these women, because I hear about it a lot.

[IfIOnly]

My girlfriend and her husband celebrate Mother's Day for their moms on Saturday. Sunday is her day. Genius. I don't have family close either, so I don't have that dilemma. I've been toying around with calling Moms on Saturday though next year. With church plus Mother's Day, the day gets away from us sometimes and getting those calls in can be stressful. We do also send cards.

[KungFuPanda]

In my family I get the attention on Mother’s Day and I usually call my mother, and until last year, grandmother. DH’s mother would make everything about her if we let her, but we never entertained that. 

[Pawz4me]

None of my family, all the way back to both of my grandmothers, have ever made any big deal at all about MD. And I guess that "took," because not only do I not want much ado about it, I'd just as soon it be totally not-a-thing. When I was growing up we did our regular Sunday stuff, which more often than not involved going to church and seeing one or both grandmothers in the afternoon. I don't remember any woman expressing any gripes or resentment that it was supposed to be "her" day. In truth I never heard anyone express any resentment/griping/whatever about MD until I joined this board.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Pawz4me

[Rosie_0801]

My parents were either obliged or wanted to observe Mothers Day for their own mothers, but that was flowers and going around for dinner or something, not spending a day doing things they hate and ignoring their own status.

I didn't do Mothers Day this year. My mother was probably a bit offended, but understood why and didn't make a fuss. My brother bought her and I some chocolates, which was a relief or I'd have had to do something and I didn't have it in me.

[Chris in VA]

I think it kinda matters who lives close to whom. Adults send parents flowers or take them out to brunch, but little kids get help from Dad to celebrate their mom. If it can be multi-generational, fine. We haven't ever lived near enough to have your dilemma.  

My adult kids (well, two of the three) are sweet to me that day. When they marry, I will not expect their presence on Mother's Day, but I sure hope they send me a card and call, or something. 

[Kassia]

I think it depends on the family.  We always spent the day with MIL even though we have a tense relationship and she has been awful to me and my family.  One year I decided to stop - DH and the kids didn't care, it was just something I felt obligated to do every year.  After that, Mother's Day was so much happier!  No more tension and I didn't hate it anymore.  We didn't make it all about me, but sometimes we'd go on a hike or something like that and get ice cream cake for dinner (my favorite).  DH and I still call her on MDay and send a card/gift (they live ten minutes away), but that's all.  She doesn't like it this way, of course, but I don't care anymore.  

 

 

[RootAnn]

My MIL died before I got married. My grandmothers have been dead since college or before I was born, respectfully. My own mother makes everything about her--Mother's Day, Christmas, Easter, the Anniversary of my dad's death, the Anniversary of my brother's death, the Anniversary of my other brother leaving for the military, the Anniversary of her father's death, ... heck, she'd claim Valentine's Day if she could. In fact, she has two birthdays. And I better remember which one is her "real" one & which one is just the one on her birth certificate. But call on both.

So, my perspective might be a bit skewed on this. I might rebel a bit & just not want any celebration at all so that I don't turn into my mom. I certainly hope I don't pout and complain loudly to my other kids if some of them don't call me on Some Important (to me) Day.

[marbel]

I don't come from family that made a big deal of M or F days, but here's my take on your question: the grandmothers are mothers.  My MIL is a grandmother but she is still a mother.  So, she would like there to be a little something honoring her that day.  (We live far away and haven't seen her in years, so there's no issue with spending the day or anything, but we acknowledge it.)

So, sure, some women who are mothers want attention on M day. Some want ALL the attention, as if they are the only or most important mother in the clan. And, some in the older generation figure that the younger mothers (like you, mothers of the grandchildren) will get your turn later when the older generation is gone, as  you said.

I don't know that that's common, but I do see that among some grand/mothers. 

Don't know about fathers; men seem different about this stuff in my experience. 

[Soror]

My compromise was doing something for MIL on Saturday and dh visiting himself on MD with the kids to give me quiet time. I visited my mom the day after Mother's Day.

[mom2scouts]

I get that grandmothers are mothers and want to celebrate, but you're a mother too and are allowed to do what you want for your mother/MIL and then celebrate with your own children. My mom likes us to go with her on a Saturday before Mother's Day to a breakfast buffet and then browsing craft shops. We go to the same restaurant and the exact same craft shops every year, so it's not exciting, but it's an enjoyable day and it makes her very happy.  However, it's never on actual Mother's Day, mom pays for everything (because we made her a mother) and even gives us cash to buy some candy at one location. In your situation, I think it would be nice if you spent a bit of time doing what your mothers want (even if it's gardening), but insist that it be done on another day because you're going to celebrate being a mother on Sunday with your own family. I've told my own adult children that a simple phone call or text is enough to make me happy on Mother's Day. One usually sends me something (probably due to his wife), one always calls, and the other one who dislikes ceremony and forced celebration often doesn't do anything (or calls a week or two later. LOL!) You're a mother too, so I say you're allowed to be a bit "selfish" on Mother's Day! 

[JustEm]

Mother's Day has always been about me and when I was a kid it was all about my mom.  I don't remember ever going to my grandmother's house for Mother's Day.  We do generally go to my mil's on Mother's Day for dinner but we have dinner with her every Sunday.  The only difference is that dh, and the men married to his sisters make dinner and dessert for everyone.  Father's Day is for dh but we also go to his dad's house to swim and have a bbq.  If dh didn't want to do it we wouldn't though.

I do know a lot of women who do not get to celebrate Mother's Day the way they want.  A lot of it is not putting their foot down and making it clear that they expect the day to be about them(which is a reasonable thing to do imo.) For me, if my mother or mil ever insisted on things the way your did I would simply say 'no, today I'm going to do what I want' and leave it at that. But I generally don't  do anything I don't want to do

[Matryoshka]

5 hours ago, Slache said:

I can't sleep. So.

When my mom was in my life she insisted I spend mother's day at her house gardening. I hate gardening. And she's nasty to me. And I'd have a rash for days. MIL (opposite side of the country) insists we spend the day shopping at a place I can't stand and eating at literally the only restaraunt in history I don't like.

If I object to either I'm told it's mother's day and I'm selfish if I don't go along, that this is how mother's day works. I live by neither of these women anymore so this isn't an issue, but it bugs me. How come I didn't get a mother's day? I'm the one who is actively mothering. Am I supposed to wait until they're gone and I can ruin my daughter's mother's day?

So, am I wrong? Selfish? And if this is new when did it start, because I know a lot of other young moms with the same complaint.

This was the story of my life until my kids were about 10. Oh, the guilt trips. We spent the whole day, every yesr, running around doing whatever mom and MIL wanted, paying homage, and oh the guilt trips if I muttered any complaint. I finally had it and told mom I would spend a day, any day, of the year doing what she wanted and that could be her mother's day, but I was going to do what I wanted that day with my immediate family in the years they had at home, because I was the actively mothering one and also when my kids had kids I wasn't going to do this to them, and I was going to have mother's day while they were still kids goshdarnit. And stuck to my guns.  Ah, peace.

Made sure to set aside the other day (usually the Saturday of the same week) and make a ridiculous fuss about her. Sent dh to his mom's to do the same.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Matryoshka

[klmama]

Mother's Day for me means dh and dc work together to make me a nice breakfast, and dh usually buys me a bouquet of flowers.  My youngest dc always makes me a card.  My adult dc usually aren't home, but they visit, if possible; this year they called and texted.  After church and lunch, we visit my MIL for about an hour and take her a bouquet, sometimes also a card.  When my older dc were small, we spent the afternoon there with the whole extended family, but as everyone's dc got older, people started dropping in whenever it worked for them.  I think dh and siblings all like it better now, because they get to spend more time one-on-one visiting with their mom, instead of having to deal with the whole clan at once.  I do think she misses having them all together at once, though.  

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by klmama

[Wheres Toto]

These days my mother is the one who takes MD most seriously.   If you don't properly acknowledge her, she would be very hurt.   But then, she's also the one who thinks disposable dinnerware on Easter ruins the holiday.    I don't really care about Mother's Day these days. 

BUT, when I had young children, mainly when oldest dd was young, I felt the way you do.  Mother's Day was taking my mother, my (then) Mother in Law, and the whole family out to brunch or dinner somewhere.   Not only was it not about me, I had to do ten times the work I would do on a normal day.  Having to corral a child in a crowded restaurant, never getting hot food because I was the one running all the bathroom trips and cutting her food and making sure she ate and didn't spill her drink.   It sucked.   Big time.   I often suggested a backyard bbq or something more low-key and easier, and was overruled all the time.   But, I do feel my issues were at least partially with my ex.   He could have helped more and made the day better for me while still doing something nice for the grandmas.  

[Soror]

2 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

But, I do feel my issues were at least partially with my ex.   He could have helped more and made the day better for me while still doing something nice for the grandmas.  

I agree with this, I feel it is the hubby's job to step up and make sure things happen for his wife for Mother's Day when the kids are young. We don't ever do anything big here but it is a day off cooking and cleaning which is great. Often, I'll ask for a bike ride or hike too. Dh is not terribly thoughtful to his Mom as they aren't the closest so remind him to acknowledge her and visit some.

[fairfarmhand]

I've told my kids that when they are parents, they can do Mother's Day however they like to celebrate it. They are the ones doing the hard work mothering so if they want to come see me, fine, if they want to nap and enjoy the day with their own kids, fine. Please give me a call though! 

When I am no longer actively mothering my kids, it will be nice that they acknowledge my efforts but young moms are TIRED and working very hard. Their families should be giving them what THEY want to do with the day. 

I think some older moms or grandmothers feel at a loss about their usefulness once their kids are grown. Perhaps they struggle with the transition to having adult kids who don't necessarily rely on them. Some women just thrived on being the mom and don't know how to move on to have their own lives separate from their kids. Those are the grandmothers who I think get all manipulative about mother's day.  Some women are just glad to be a queen bee and feel that Mother's Day it's their right to behave as such when on other days their families won't put up with it as much. 

However, some older women are just lonely and really want their families around them, so they use mothers  day as a way of forcing that issue.

NOTE: The following statement is full of generalizations. I know that. I've just seen some patterns and yes, I know that it's not ALL mothers of sons.

In my experience, mother's of sons often really struggle with things like this, thus the mother in law stuff. (not all of course, but enough that I've noticed the pattern) Men generally are less sentimental so these Hallmark days just don't register with them in the same way. And a grown man may typically "need" his mother less or might feel weird about acknowledging his tie to his mom. Women typically don't mind those kind of emotional ties to their parents.  So the mother of a son may miss her son, feel unneeded and insecure, thus be a witch about Mother's Day. 

And there is the "Some women are just very sentimental." aspect of this dynamic.

[catz]

Selfish?  No.  You didn’t lay down a clear boundary though.   I never do anything with MIL, though DH might stop by.  I might go out for a meal and get a gift for my mother.  I mostly do what I want.  

[Kassia]

4 hours ago, RootAnn said:

my perspective might be a bit skewed on this. I might rebel a bit & just not want any celebration at all so that I don't turn into my mom. I certainly hope I don't pout and complain loudly to my other kids if some of them don't call me on Some Important (to me) Day.

 

Yes, this is exactly how I feel after dealing with my own mother and MIL.  I just want to have a good relationship with my kids - they don't need to make a big deal about holidays.  I have three adult kids now.  Sometimes they come up with something fabulous and thoughtful and other times there's nothing but a text or something.  It's all good as long as I get to be part of their lives.  ❤️  Dd is 17 and always does something sweet and creative for holidays.  It is very much appreciated, but not necessary.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

In your situation, I think it would be nice if you spent a bit of time doing what your mothers want (even if it's gardening), 

I disagree with this. I think it's rude, mean, and emotionally manipulative to request or expect someone to do something you know they actively dislike, for no good reason. Yes, they're spending time together, but why would the mom want that time to intentionally not be enjoyable for her daughter? Why would someone take pleasure in knowing the other person can't wait for the activity to be over? It's a power play. They know the other person won't want to say no and they take advantage of that. There's the aura of proving your love and apparently the pleasure of getting your own way. It's selfish. 

Some people who do this will change if you spotlight their behavior and refuse to give in. I had a couple of people in my life who tended to do this (not my mom), and I finally starting speaking up. I realized it was ridiculous to do something I hated when there were plenty of other things we could do - especially when they added insult to the injury by expecting me to spend money on it, and/or it resulted in something so blatantly negative as a rash for days or a blinding headache. 

I will do X or Y, but I will not do Z, you know I hate it. It's my birthday, I want to do Z!  You do Z all the time, but sure, do it on your birthday if you want, I'm just not going. You know I hate Z and it gives me a terrible headache. Heh, yes, but it's my birthday and I really want you to do Z with everyone else. I'm not going, so let me know if you want to do something else that day or another day. 

And just refuse to engage any further. It can help to straight out ask questions like, Why would making me unhappy make you happy? Why do you want to do something together that you know I hate, when we both like A, B, and C? What gives you pleasure about knowing that I'm miserable? I didn't generally get answers to those questions, but asking did help derail their persistence. After a few times, those requests mostly stopped. Which was good, bc they were good people in general but definitely had that mean streak and definitely liked things to be done exactly their way. 

You can love people and do nice things for them without doing something you hate. 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by katilac

[fairfarmhand]

12 minutes ago, katilac said:

I disagree with this. I think it's rude, mean, and emotionally manipulative to request or expect someone to do something you know they actively dislike, for no good reason. Yes, they're spending time together, but why would the mom want that time to intentionally not be enjoyable for her daughter? Why would someone take pleasure in knowing the other person can't wait for the activity to be over? It's a power play. They know the other person won't want to say no and they take advantage of that. There's the aura of proving your love and apparently the pleasure of getting your own way. It's selfish. 

Some people who do this will change if you spotlight their behavior and refuse to give in. I had a couple of people in my life who tended to do this (not my mom), and I finally starting speaking up. I realized it was ridiculous to do something I hated when there were plenty of other things we could do - especially when they added insult to the injury by expecting me to spend money on it, and/or it resulted in something so blatantly negative as a rash for days or a blinding headache. 

I will do X or Y, but I will not do Z, you know I hate it. It's my birthday, I want to do Z!  You do Z all the time, but sure, do it on your birthday if you want, I'm just not going. You know I hate Z and it gives me a terrible headache. Heh, yes, but it's my birthday and I really want you to do Z with everyone else. I'm not going, so let me know if you want to do something else that day or another day. 

And just refuse to engage any further. It can help to straight out ask questions like, Why would making me unhappy make you happy? Why do you want to do something together that you know I hate, when we both like A, B, and C? What gives you pleasure about knowing that I'm miserable? I didn't generally get answers to those questions, but asking did help derail their persistence. After a few times, those requests mostly stopped. Which was good, bc they were good people in general but definitely had that mean streak and definitely liked things to be done exactly their way. 

You can love people and do nice things for them without doing something you hate. 

 

There are also other ways to participate in someone's passion besides doing it personally.

For gardening, buy some plants or equipment.

For shopping, buy a gift card and meet at the mall for dinner at a restaurant.

etc.

[HS Mom in NC]

9 hours ago, Slache said:

 How come I didn't get a mother's day?

Because you didn't set and enforce reasonable boundaries.  You can do whatever you want for Mother's Day, but you are never entitled to someone's approval of anything you ever do. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.  Once you accept that joyfully, you get yourself off the hook for seeking out, wanting and needing their approval.

I lived by my mom and mother-in-law for the first 22 years of being a mother. When we made plans with them we called each of them and told them we were willing to do X activity at X time.  We picked times and activities that didn't interfere with Mother's Day for me. If the proposed by us activity and time didn't work for them we could move it around to another day, often Saturday or Sunday afternoon or evening, but we never agreed on a time that interfered with what we were doing for me. They were always flexible, but if they hadn't been we would've said that's too bad, called and had a short chat on Mother's Day before or after our plans for me, sent a card, or sent flowers or whatever. The natural reasonable consequences of refusing to work around another person's plans are that the other person trying to work it out will do what they had planned and the uncooperative party will not get to see them.  They made their choice by not being flexible.  It's on them. 

And, as stated up thread, you don't have to agree to garden or shop. You can choose to celebrate them with whatever you want or however you like. "I can't come over for gardening, Mom. Are there any plants or other items you particularly want for your garden?" or "Shopping is too much for me this year, can you come over for cake at X time?" or whatever you're willing to do.

I'm willing to eat a restaurant that I hate (not just dislike) every now and then for someone's event.  Organ Stop Pizza is a ring of hell to me, but every 5-10 years I could go there for my husband's birthday because he really got a kick out of the place and I enjoy seeing him enjoying something.  I could smile, make nice, choke down a few slices of crappy pizza, endure the assault on the senses for a few hours, and chalk it up to contributing to the relationship. He would do the same.  He went to Phantom of the Opera with me on a double date and he hates musicals, but he enjoys seeing me do something I enjoy.  I can go to overpriced tea (that's still within my Mother's Day gift budget) at the Phoenician some years with all my SILs and my mom because she likes it. I can go to my MIL's favorite restaurant, Buco de Beppo,  and have my senses assaulted by the tacky, garish decor and listen to her complain about whatever the Complaint of The Day is a few times a year for a couple of hours. 

And other years we just take over a bunch of grocery store flowers, a card, and visit for an hour. Sometimes we coordinate a family get together with siblings and great/grandkids and lunch at someone's house, usually mine.    The possibilities are endless. Tradition is a servant, not a master.  When it serves us, fine.  If it becomes a task master, we do something different.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Jean in Newcastle]

We had boundaries so it wasn’t an issue. MIL (who always pushed boundaries) would have made it an issue but we didn’t let her. The older generation mothers and fathers got phone calls and cards. The mother and father in our nuclear family got the personal attention. This was modeled for the kids when they were younger. Ie. Dh helped them do something for me on MD and I helped them do something for him on FD. Once they became older teens they took over doing stuff for us on their own. No manipulation. No guilt. No set expectations. But I am glad that they seem to have learned the real lesson here- expressing gratitude for the care they have received. Gratitude isn’t obligatory but it is appreciated. 

[Tanaqui]

Next year I think you have to be pre-emptive with your MIL. Long before she tells you her plans, you tell her YOUR plans for Mother's Day, and immediately follow up with "I know you won't be so selfish as to keep me from celebrating with my children".

 

Note: I skipped all the posts in the middle.

[Slache]

3 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

In my experience, mother's of sons often really struggle with things like this, thus the mother in law stuff..

Not directly related, but I read once on the hive that daughters tend to raise their families the way their mothers did, not the way their mother in-laws did, which can be what causes the issue between daughter-in-law and mother-in-law. That really struck me and I'm going to remember it when my boys get married.

3 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Selfish?  No.  You didn’t lay down a clear boundary though.   I never do anything with MIL, though DH might stop by.  I might go out for a meal and get a gift for my mother.  I mostly do what I want.  

If I had laid down a boundary I would have paid for the rest of the year. We moved away.

3 hours ago, katilac said:

I disagree with this. I think it's rude, mean, and emotionally manipulative to request or expect someone to do something you know they actively dislike, for no good reason.

Aw, honey! That was the point! But it's no longer an issue.

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

There are also other ways to participate in someone's passion besides doing it personally.

For gardening, buy some plants or equipment.

For shopping, buy a gift card and meet at the mall for dinner at a restaurant.

etc.

But it was about controlling that day. That day needed to be about them, not me. I was frequently reminded of that fact. But it's no longer an issue.

37 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Next year I think you have to be pre-emptive with your MIL. Long before she tells you her plans, you tell her YOUR plans for Mother's Day, and immediately follow up with "I know you won't be so selfish as to keep me from celebrating with my children".

 

Note: I skipped all the posts in the middle.

We moved away. It was easier.

[Slache]

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to see varied responses, especially y'all getting together for brunch and loving it. That sounds nice.

I had a good mother's day for the first time this year. We did nothing all morning, went for a short walk and got tacos from a taco truck. "The kids" got me roses and they're still on my nightstand.

[prairiewindmomma]

Yes, but why did you tell her you went to TX? 😂

[saraha]

10 hours ago, Slache said:

I can't sleep. So.

When my mom was in my life she insisted I spend mother's day at her house gardening. I hate gardening. And she's nasty to me. And I'd have a rash for days. MIL (opposite side of the country) insists we spend the day shopping at a place I can't stand and eating at literally the only restaraunt in history I don't like.

If I object to either I'm told it's mother's day and I'm selfish if I don't go along, that this is how mother's day works. I live by neither of these women anymore so this isn't an issue, but it bugs me. How come I didn't get a mother's day? I'm the one who is actively mothering. Am I supposed to wait until they're gone and I can ruin my daughter's mother's day?

So, am I wrong? Selfish? And if this is new when did it start, because I know a lot of other young moms with the same complaint.

I had these same thoughts for the first fifteen years of my marriage/mothering about my mil. Then one year, I just laid it out for dh and said I am not doing this anymore, I will happily take her a gift, and plant her flowers on Monday, or Saturday, or any other day. There was a lot of push back from him until I uttered, "Am I supposed to wait until they're gone and I can ruin my daughter's mother's day?" or something very near to that. That made him think about it differently, and see my perspective.

[HS Mom in NC]

Another thought: I often tell my spouse and kids what I would like for Mother's Day if there's something in particular I do want. That's been part of my extended family culture, and if it hadn't been, I would've started it with my family. Usually they ask me if there's something I want. I always tell my husband. I don't always have something I want, but sometimes I do, like this year.  So I phrase it in a way that respects them.  "There's a mailbox and stand on my Amazon wish list that I would like if you don't already have something else in mind. I'm always happy with whatever you choose to do, but it's there as a back up if you want it." And I really am happy with whatever they do, they've seen that.  Sometimes they go with my back up and sometimes they surprise me.  It's all good.

(The world's ugliest mailbox came with the house we bought 2 years ago. The kids got me the new one and my husband put it in for me.)

[rebcoola]

MIL thinks it should be about her but it's not.  She gets a gift and a phone call.  My mom loves in town sometimes we do a brunch or BBQ together the main hallmark of the day is I do no cooking.  It is definitely more about me but no mother does any work on mother's day unless they want to.

[happi duck]

I think md is about all mother's but not some above others!

Growing up mother's day was not such an involved event ime.  There wasn't this idea of the day being focused on one person.  If the way to celebrate is that one person gets catered to then of course several people can't be celebrated on the same day.

MD makes me sad.  My mom died when my oldest was a newborn so my first md as a mom was my first without a mom.  It's still a hard day for me.

[Slache]

1 minute ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Another thought: I often tell my spouse and kids what I would like for Mother's Day if there's something in particular I do want. That's been part of my extended family culture, and if it hadn't been, I would've started it with my family. Usually they ask me if there's something I want. I always tell my husband. I don't always have something I want, but sometimes I do, like this year.  So I phrase it in a way that respects them.  "There's a mailbox and stand on my Amazon wish list that I would like if you don't already have something else in mind. I'm always happy with whatever you choose to do, but it's there as a back up if you want it." And I really am happy with whatever they do, they've seen that.  Sometimes they go with my back up and sometimes they surprise me.  It's all good.

(The world's ugliest mailbox came with the house we bought 2 years ago. The kids got me the new one and my husband put it in for me.)

I've never gotten a gift. Mom/MIL always expected such expensive gifts there was no money left for me. This is also no longer an issue, but I guess we never started buying me things. I don't get birthday or Christmas gifts for the same reason. Well, this mother's day I got roses and tacos. That was wonderful, but impromptu.

All I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated.

[HS Mom in NC]

48 minutes ago, Slache said:

I've never gotten a gift. Mom/MIL always expected such expensive gifts there was no money left for me. This is also no longer an issue, but I guess we never started buying me things. I don't get birthday or Christmas gifts for the same reason. Well, this mother's day I got roses and tacos. That was wonderful, but impromptu.

All I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated.

Other people don't get to decide what gifts (of time or things) you give them or how much time or money you spend on those gifts.  You and your husband decide how much you'll spend and what you'll spend it on. You two have a history of deciding to spend all of your funds on them and you decided not to spend any on you, whether you acknowledged it or not.  You chose to do what you hated even though you didn't want to.  You need to understand that that was a choice you freely made. No one threatened your life or the life of your husband and/or kids to force you into it. Being threatened with mom and MIL disapproval is not the same as being forced into anything. Adults don't need approval-needing approval is an adolescent mindset we guide our children out of by adulthood so they can be emotionally mature and healthy people. You're always responsible for your decisions and actions whether you did them consciously or not.

If you want to be included in Christmas and birthday presents in the future you'll need to say so out loud  and tell them they can either surprise you or you'll provide them with a list of items if they want one.  We only expect people to read the minds of people who are developmentally or temporarily incapable of articulating their own wants, needs, thoughts, and feelings. That's not your case, so you need to tell people that you want that, if that's what you want.  If you want something else, tell them what it is and don't apologize for it.  Just cheerfully tell them ahead of time that you've decided to make a change and explain what that change is.

Part of being an adult is recognizing your own agency and autonomy and boundary recognition, establishment, and enforcement are a part of those.  You're perfectly capable of articulating what you want, you did it here.  It seems you're unwilling to endure the  discomfort enforcing and setting boundaries.  They're required for emotional health. It's critical that your children learn them from watching you model them and discuss them explicitly.  If discussions here or through self-help sources don't work for you, then seeing a professional counselor qualified to work with you on this issue is necessary. This isn't just happening to you, you're contributing to it by freely choosing your own actions that make it possible. No, it's not easy to establish and enforce boundaries, but it's a much better life.

[OH_Homeschooler]

When I was married, we lived much closer to MIL than my own mother. The ex would take the kids to see his mother on Mother's Day, which freed me of any parenting responsibilities or obligations for the day and I was free to do whatever. And it made MIL happy since she did not get to see the kids very often. Plus, she didn't have to deal with me on her special day and I'm sure she was thrilled about that.  😬

We'd send a gift card to my mom and call her. I usually picked out a card labeled to "Mom" so it was primarily from me, but I'd just have the kids sign it and draw pictures.

[Arctic Bunny]

My MIL insists that that day is all about her sons paying attention to her, and that it’s my kids’ job to do something for me. Which is challenging for them if their dad is supposed to be looking after his mom 3 hours away. DH ignores that, calls her, sends her something in the mail.... I remember when I was little that Mother’s Day was spent with my mom and her mom. But that worked because my dad's family was overseas, and my mom's only sibling was single.

[Slache]

10 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

1. Other people don't get to decide what gifts (of time or things) you give them or how much time or money you spend on those gifts.  You and your husband decide how much you'll spend and what you'll spend it on. You two have a history of deciding to spend all of your funds on them and you decided not to spend any on you, whether you acknowledged it or not.  You chose to do what you hated even though you didn't want to.  You need to understand that that was a choice you freely made. No one threatened your life or the life of your husband and/or kids to force you into it. Being threatened with mom and MIL disapproval is not the same as being forced into anything. Adults don't need approval-needing approval is an adolescent mindset we guide our children out of by adulthood so they can be emotionally mature and healthy people. You're always responsible for your decisions and actions whether you did them consciously or not.

2. If you want to be included in Christmas and birthday presents in the future you'll need to say so out loud  and tell them they can either surprise you or you'll provide them with a list of items if they want one.  We only expect people to read the minds of people who are developmentally or temporarily incapable of articulating their own wants, needs, thoughts, and feelings. That's not your case, so you need to tell people that you want that, if that's what you want.  If you want something else, tell them what it is and don't apologize for it.  Just cheerfully tell them ahead of time that you've decided to make a change and explain what that change is.

3. Part of being an adult is recognizing your own agency and autonomy and boundary recognition, establishment, and enforcement are a part of those.  You're perfectly capable of articulating what you want, you did it here.  It seems you're unwilling to endure the  discomfort enforcing and setting boundaries.  They're required for emotional health. It's critical that your children learn them from watching you model them and discuss them explicitly.  If discussions here or through self-help sources don't work for you, then seeing a professional counselor qualified to work with you on this issue is necessary. This isn't just happening to you, you're contributing to it by freely choosing your own actions that make it possible. No, it's not easy to establish and enforce boundaries, but it's a much better life.

1. It was a choice between forfeiting the day or paying for it the rest of the year. When I realized I had slowly forfeited more and more to keep the peace and was still the subject of daily screaming and occasional violence for not giving up even more we left the state.

2. I didn't mind not getting things. My only point was that all I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated, but there were consequences for not doing that.

3. Yes, I absolutely have a boundary issue here. This is why it's easier for me to just be absent then have to deal with it. I don't have issues with 95% of the people in my life and my children are learning good boundary setting from me, but an NPD female is able to knock me down in about 2 minutes so I choose to not be around them, which is an appropriate boundary.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I hate mother's day.  They don't make cards that just say "You are a mother."  None of this best mom in the world garbage.  She wasn't.  She's not.  Yes, she could have been worse.  But she's kind of a narcissist with moments of humanity.  What do you do with that?  Can't cut her off because it hasn't been so egregious and now she's old and can't drive and needs weekly drives to her doctor appointments.  So you go and walk on eggshells and pray that she's pleasant that day.  And it spoils mother's day for you even when you don't have to spend it with her.  And you have to get her a gift because you can't get her a card because none fit and something is Expected.  Freakin' mother's day.

((hugs)) Slache.

[HS Mom in NC]

6 minutes ago, Slache said:

1. It was a choice between forfeiting the day or paying for it the rest of the year. When I realized I had slowly forfeited more and more to keep the peace and was still the subject of daily screaming and occasional violence for not giving up even more we left the state.

That was not your only option.  You wouldn't have "paid for it for the rest of the year" unless you chose to engage with her, which is entirely optional. There is no need to keep the peace with her by appeasing her.  That's an entirely optional choice. You could've chosen to stay, established and enforced the boundary, and if she started up, gone home.  You could have chosen to stay and not engage with her any time she acted disrespectfully to you or your family members. If it's in person, leave.  If it's violent, call the police.  If it's over phone hang up.  If by text or online, block her.

2. I didn't mind not getting things. My only point was that all I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated, but there were consequences for not doing that.

There are always consequences for everything. As I stated in 1., you're imagining you're blocked in all or nothing options when you aren't.  You're willingly participating in perpetuating the dynamic. That's a mindest is emotionally and mentally bad for you to maintain.  Stop telling yourself these things, it's making your life worse unnecessarily. It's a distortion of reality that you're teaching your children as true. 

3. Yes, I absolutely have a boundary issue here. This is why it's easier for me to just be absent then have to deal with it. I don't have issues with 95% of the people in my life and my children are learning good boundary setting from me, but an NPD female is able to knock me down in about 2 minutes so I choose to not be around them, which is an appropriate boundary.

Your question was are you being selfish for not doing it her way.  If you had healthy boundaries clarified in your own mind you wouldn't wonder that.  You would know she's being ridiculous and mentally ill. Your title wonders if Mother's Day has always been about about Grandmothers.  So I would argue that leaving wasn't as much about the healthy boundaries you established through moving, but probably that you moved because it was easier than dealing with the entirety of the issues in play.

 

 

[rebcoola]

I got my mom a card one year that just said thanks for letting dad knock you up.  I never buy those best mom in the world cards.  We have an okay relationship now but seriously hate those overly flowery cards.

[Slache]

21 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

My mom passed away long before we had kids. Mil tried to make it all about her, but then, EVERY day was about her! I slowly cut down on the crazies. She's gone now. We have a weird tradition now--we always seem to do branding on MD! None of my kids live near their in-laws, so they just did phone calls. Dd's bf took her over the pass, and they did a MD thing with his mom and g'ma on Saturday. Then they came here, and I cooked for a big crew! We did a nice take out for dinner. But the day consisted of my cooking and baking. As always. 😉 The kids all chipped in and got me new trail shoes--yay!

'What do you mean they do branding?" -my very confused DH

Eta: I explained. He thought you were branding yourselves.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Slache

[gardenmom5]

They sound really charming.  /

you're neither rude nor selfish.  You're an adult, with your own children.

This is why there are boundaries.

[Kassia]

44 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

I hate mother's day.  They don't make cards that just say "You are a mother."  None of this best mom in the world garbage.  She wasn't.  She's not.  Yes, she could have been worse.  But she's kind of a narcissist with moments of humanity.  What do you do with that?  Can't cut her off because it hasn't been so egregious and now she's old and can't drive and needs weekly drives to her doctor appointments.  So you go and walk on eggshells and pray that she's pleasant that day.  And it spoils mother's day for you even when you don't have to spend it with her.  And you have to get her a gift because you can't get her a card because none fit and something is Expected.  Freakin' mother's day.

 

We just get very generic cards that say things like, "Hope you have a lovely Mother's Day."  It is hard to find a decent card when so many are way over the top and don't apply.  I always stress about it before I actually find one.  Sometimes I have to go to multiple stores just to avoid getting one that is ridiculously untrue.

[Slache]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

They sound really charming.  /

you're neither rude nor selfish.  You're an adult, with your own children.

This is why there are boundaries.

I really liked AZ's comment:

Your question was are you being selfish for not doing it her way.  If you had healthy boundaries clarified in your own mind you wouldn't wonder that. 

That's the entire problem. I need to think on this. And I know it's used against me.

[gardenmom5]

12 hours ago, Slache said:

For the record, the reason I posted is because I realized two things. 1. When my husband and I were young mother's day was about our mothers, not grandmothers, so this is not "how it's been" for our families. 2. Father's day is about my husband, not our fathers. We buy them gifts, but the day isn't about them.

I know this isn't an issue just with these women, because I hear about it a lot.

sounds like they want the same treatment they got when their own children were small and living with them; after their children grew up, moved out and had their own children.

or just - always all about them.   have you read up on narcissism?  a person doesn't have to be a full-blown narcissist to act like one, and you can still apply many of the tactics for dealing with one.

[Slache]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

sounds like they want the same treatment they got when their own children were small and living with them; after their children grew up, moved out and had their own children.

or just - always all about them.   have you read up on narcissism?  a person doesn't have to be a full-blown narcissist to act like one, and you can still apply many of the tactics for dealing with one.

Oh, honey. We need to do lunch. I have been on the NPD/ASD/CPTSD trail for... two years? I have cried more as an adult realizing these things than as a child when they were actually being done to me. My favorite tool has been a list of memorized and well practiced responses to deescalate a situation. If anyone cares:

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I see you feel strongly, but I see things differently.

I guess I have to accept that that’s how you feel.

That doesn’t feel like it’s in line with my integrity.

That’s possible.

How can we have a discussion if you refuse to hear my side?

I’m glad you’ve found an approach that works for you.

I can accept your faulty impression of me.

I’m sorry you’re in this situation. What are you going to do about it?

Your anger is not my responsibility.

Let’s talk about this when you're feeling calmer.

What are you trying to say?

What I think and feel does not have to match what you think and feel.

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

I really liked AZ's comment:

Your question was are you being selfish for not doing it her way.  If you had healthy boundaries clarified in your own mind you wouldn't wonder that. 

That's the entire problem. I need to think on this. And I know it's used against me.

my grandmother was likely a covert narcissist.  I used to joke "*EVERYTHING you say WILL be used against you."  might not be today, or tomorrow - but that day would come.  And everything is turned about to make it about them, and if you don't make everything about them - you are the problem.  you are the one who is crazy - not them.

reality is, narcissism/similar is the only mental health issue where the people around them think they're crazy . . . . think about that.

you're not crazy.  

and we have a wonderful group of experience moms who can be a good sounding board for those of us from backgrounds where boundaries were non-existent.  

I recently was doing - I'm being too hard on my brother, etc.  I was trained to always dismiss other's treating me like crap.  then I listed things he did.  nope, he is that out of line in his behavior towards others.  it's not me.

write it down - what would you tell a friend asking you that question?   if they want to have a fit - that doesn't mean you have to be an audience.

[Slache]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

my grandmother was likely a covert narcissist.  I used to joke "*EVERYTHING you say WILL be used against you."  might not be today, or tomorrow - but that day would come.  And everything is turned about to make it about them, and if you don't make everything about them - you are the problem.  you are the one who is crazy - not them.

reality is, narcissism/similar is the only mental health issue where the people around them think they're crazy . . . . think about that.

you're not crazy.  

and we have a wonderful group of experience moms who can be a good sounding board for those of us from backgrounds where boundaries were non-existent.  

I recently was doing - I'm being too hard on my brother, etc.  I was trained to always dismiss other's treating me like crap.  then I listed things he did.  nope, he is that out of line in his behavior towards others.  it's not me.

write it down - what would you tell a friend asking you that question?   if they want to have a fit - that doesn't mean you have to be an audience.

I know. I have read a lot of your previous posts and they really resonate with me. There are some people on The Hive (one in particular and she knows who she is!) that have helped me to make sense of my reality.

I don't know what proper boundaries are in every case and I am a selfish person, so if someone tells me I'm being selfish it would make sense to me that I am.

MIL and I recently had another disagreement and I had outside help making a decision. You guys are great! I'm getting better.

[Rosie_0801]

36 minutes ago, Slache said:

I don't know what proper boundaries are in every case and I am a selfish person, so if someone tells me I'm being selfish it would make sense to me that I am.

 

You probably aren't any more selfish than anyone else, and you might look up this book about boundaries I'm working dd through. (The language isn't my preference, but it's the best book I could find on the subject.)

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Because you didn't set and enforce reasonable boundaries.  You can do whatever you want for Mother's Day, but you are never entitled to someone's approval of anything you ever do. 

~ to wait for someone's approval is pointless, especially for those who don't give it. (because it's. about. them.  sigh.)

Once you accept that joyfully, you get yourself off the hook for seeking out, wanting and needing their approval.  ~ this.  When my grandmother finally got the message I no longer gave a flying fig about her approbation, she did try to cut me off.  It's a ploy of narcissists.  they want the fawning adulation, and if you won't give it to them, you're not useful.  well, that hurt her more than me.  I didn't sell my soul for her approval, and I have self-respect.

 

You can choose to celebrate them with whatever you want or however you like. "I can't come over for gardening, Mom. Are there any plants or other items you particularly want for your garden?" or "Shopping is too much for me this year, can you come over for cake at X time?" or whatever you're willing to do.  ~ "that doens't work for me" is a wonderful sentence, everyone should learn.   My brother fished for a thanksgiving invitation one year.  "That doesn't work for me."  rinse, repeat.  Never, ever argue with a narcissist. never, ever give a specific reason why it doesn't work for you.  It wastes your time, and just annoys them (For which they will attempt to punish you.)
 

 

2 hours ago, Slache said:

Not directly related, but I read once on the hive that daughters tend to raise their families the way their mothers did, not the way their mother in-laws did, which can be what causes the issue between daughter-in-law and mother-in-law. That really struck me and I'm going to remember it when my boys get married.

If I had laid down a boundary I would have paid for the rest of the year. We moved away.

Aw, honey! That was the point! But it's no longer an issue.

But it was about controlling that day. That day needed to be about them, not me. I was frequently reminded of that fact. But it's no longer an issue.

We moved away. It was easier.

you treat these type of people like you do a toddler.  "go have your tantrum in your room.  I'm not an audience."  do NOT tell them you think they're having a tantrum, just leave and let them snark to themselves.  Always have control of our interactions.  somewhere you can walk out when they are out of line.  don't discuss, just "I'll see you later" - and WALK AWAY.  

I ended up allotting a 15 minute phone call with my grandmother (she lived 40 minutes away.).  as long as she was polite.  as SOON as she wasn't "bye, I'll talk to you later."  never discuss, never argue, it wastes your breath and raises your stress level.  incidentally, there were only a handful of phone calls that actually lasted that long.  most were only about half that.  one, didn't last five minutes, and only because I had a 20' cord and had to walk back to the base to hang-up.

2 hours ago, Slache said:

I've never gotten a gift. Mom/MIL always expected such expensive gifts there was no money left for me. This is also no longer an issue, but I guess we never started buying me things. I don't get birthday or Christmas gifts for the same reason. Well, this mother's day I got roses and tacos. That was wonderful, but impromptu.

All I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated.

that's their problem.  they have zero right to expect you to buy them such expensive gifts.  they can "expect" all they want, you still don't have to buy it for them unless you want to.  if you're going to resent giving it to them - don't.  it's not going to give them (or you) a better life.  when someone "expects" gifts like that, they tend to get about five minutes of pleasure before they move on to the next trinket.  

they can wish for the moon - doesn't mean they'll get it.

 

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Other people don't get to decide what gifts (of time or things) you give them or how much time or money you spend on those gifts.  You and your husband decide how much you'll spend and what you'll spend it on. You two have a history of deciding to spend all of your funds on them and you decided not to spend any on you, whether you acknowledged it or not.  You chose to do what you hated even though you didn't want to.  You need to understand that that was a choice you freely made. No one threatened your life or the life of your husband and/or kids to force you into it. Being threatened with mom and MIL disapproval is not the same as being forced into anything. Adults don't need approval-needing approval is an adolescent mindset we guide our children out of by adulthood so they can be emotionally mature and healthy people. You're always responsible for your decisions and actions whether you did them consciously or not.

If you want to be included in Christmas and birthday presents in the future you'll need to say so out loud  and tell them they can either surprise you or you'll provide them with a list of items if they want one.  We only expect people to read the minds of people who are developmentally or temporarily incapable of articulating their own wants, needs, thoughts, and feelings. That's not your case, so you need to tell people that you want that, if that's what you want.  If you want something else, tell them what it is and don't apologize for it.  Just cheerfully tell them ahead of time that you've decided to make a change and explain what that change is.

Part of being an adult is recognizing your own agency and autonomy and boundary recognition, establishment, and enforcement are a part of those.  You're perfectly capable of articulating what you want, you did it here.  It seems you're unwilling to endure the  discomfort enforcing and setting boundaries.  They're required for emotional health. It's critical that your children learn them from watching you model them and discuss them explicitly.  If discussions here or through self-help sources don't work for you, then seeing a professional counselor qualified to work with you on this issue is necessary. This isn't just happening to you, you're contributing to it by freely choosing your own actions that make it possible. No, it's not easy to establish and enforce boundaries, but it's a much better life.

narcissists "threaten" with disapproval/disaffection because the only way they can control people is by being manipulative.  you do NOT have to allow yourself to be manipulated.  you do NOT have to "play their game".   Incidentally - your self-respect will go up if you stop demeaning yourself to make a psychologically abusive person "happy" (which lasts for all of five minutes.)

narcissists have a favorite ploy of "if you loved me you'd read my mind". - again, you do NOT have to "play their game".   

you also don't have "to beg" them to "condescend" to visit you, give you a gift, etc.   they either want to (which they almost never do, because it's all about themselves.), or not (in which case, it's a waste of your time and energy.

It is often pointless to try to reason with a narcissist.  they can't be reasoned with - but you do NOT have to "play their game."   just step back.

1 hour ago, Slache said:

1. It was a choice between forfeiting the day or paying for it the rest of the year. When I realized I had slowly forfeited more and more to keep the peace and was still the subject of daily screaming and occasional violence for not giving up even more we left the state.

2. I didn't mind not getting things. My only point was that all I wanted was to not spend the day doing something I hated, but there were consequences for not doing that.

3. Yes, I absolutely have a boundary issue here. This is why it's easier for me to just be absent then have to deal with it. I don't have issues with 95% of the people in my life and my children are learning good boundary setting from me, but an NPD female is able to knock me down in about 2 minutes so I choose to not be around them, which is an appropriate boundary.

you would not pay for it the rest of the year, unless you allowed them to impose their displeasure on you.  are they paying any of your bills?  providing any necessary family services?

are they going to whine?  - don't be an audience.  "bye, I'll talk to you late." hang. up.

Townend and Clouds: Boundaries, when to say yes, how to say no.  they also have a workbook.

first thing is you controlling the relationship.  they treat you with disrespect because you have allowed them to treat you with disrespect.  Be wiling to walk away/hang-up the phone etc.  take back control.

my grandmother is dead, but my brother. . . .  (smh.)  he's never allowed in my house, I control all of my contact with him.  Even at my nephew's baby shower, when my brother started whining at me because I was "keeping his daughter from him" (she's an adult and is no-contact with him.  she's the one who doesn't want contact with him.)  I just said "whatever" and walked away.  He can whine all he wants - I will not be his audience.    Our mother is dead, and I dont' have to put up with him to try to protect a vulnerable older adult anymore.

21 minutes ago, Slache said:

Oh, honey. We need to do lunch. I have been on the NPD/ASD/CPTSD trail for... two years? I have cried more as an adult realizing these things than as a child when they were actually being done to me. My favorite tool has been a list of memorized and well practiced responses to deescalate a situation. If anyone cares:

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I see you feel strongly, but I see things differently.

I guess I have to accept that that’s how you feel.

That doesn’t feel like it’s in line with my integrity.

That’s possible.

How can we have a discussion if you refuse to hear my side?

I’m glad you’ve found an approach that works for you.

I can accept your faulty impression of me.

I’m sorry you’re in this situation. What are you going to do about it?

Your anger is not my responsibility.

Let’s talk about this when you're feeling calmer.

What are you trying to say?

What I think and feel does not have to match what you think and feel.

Most of these are confrontational.  (some strongly so.)  I would strongly urge to you scale them back.  Being confrontational with a narcissist is like pulling the pin from a grenade, and not tossing it.  Confronting them doesn't make your life any easier, but keeps "the game" alive and going.

the one I highlighted is a good one.  Don't take responsibility for their unhappiness/wants/expectations/etc.

if they want something from you, that you don't want to do: "That doesn't work for me".  "why?" - because it doesn't.  no excuses, no reasons (which are seen as an opening by them to argue with you, it just "doesn't".

Please look at the videos on youtube by Dr. Ramani, Dr. Les Carter (surviving narcissim), and Joanna Kujath.

don't try and teach a pig (narcissist) to sing - it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.