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Roadrunner

University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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8 minutes ago, EKS said:

I was responding to your statement that "grades are a measure of EFFORT and the ability to maximize whatever is available to you."  So I'm not sure what you think I'm latching onto. 

I absolutely agree that grades can be a measure of achievement.  They can measure a lot of other things too--primarily conscientiousness.  Grades also measure attendance, bringing kleenex to share with the class, how well you cooperate with your group, and how well the teacher likes you--in other words, compliance and convergent thinking.  If you're interested in educating the next generation of thinkers and innovators, compliance and convergent thinking are exactly what you shouldn't be selecting for.  But then, colleges these days are really just glorified vocational schools, and most vocations are all about compliance and convergent thinking.

I can tell you that in graduate school--specifically at CSU Northridge in humanities and ASU in education--GPA is a total joke.  People who couldn't write coherent sentences (much less entire papers), who obviously didn't understand the material, and who had absolutely no original ideas beyond "I agreed with the reading" were getting 4.0s and graduating with honors.  I firmly believe that this sort of thing is rampant K-16+, particularly in the humanities and the social sciences.

This is why another measure is needed beyond GPA.  


Oh come on! Are you seriously suggesting that high school students are earning grades for bringing in Kleenex?  Even in northwest Arkansas circa 1992 (which was way behind the suburban SoCal district I came from) that wasn’t a thing. Compliance with attendance policies has ZERO to do with the ability of students to be creative or outside of the box thinkers. At least support some of this hyperventilation with information/links.  Thus far, no one has been able to refute that high school grades are a better predictor of achievement in college than a single test score. Beyond that, Education majors are known to have some of the lowest admission stats at most universities so I’m not sure why I should use that group to extrapolate ideas about universities nationwide or in CA any more than engineering students are representative.

If test scores are needed to overcome subpar high school performance, there’s nothing in this policy that prevents someone from submitting them.

Edited by Sneezyone

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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Are you seriously suggesting that high school students are earning grades for bringing in Kleenex?

I'm not suggesting it.  I'm saying it happens all the time.  It did in my son's health class at a well regarded public high school.  Extra credit, and quite a bit of it.

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If test scores are needed to overcome subpar high school performance, there’s nothing in this policy that prevents someone from submitting them.

Then why can't it go both ways?  GPA overcomes subpar test scores and test scores overcome subpar GPA.

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12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Beyond that, Education majors are known to have some of the lowest admission stats at most universities so I’m not sure why I should use that group to extrapolate ideas about universities nationwide or in CA any more than engineering students are representative.

And I wasn't extrapolating--that's why I said "specifically" and gave the institutions' names and the fields of study.  

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@Roadrunner UC engineering school admissions have not changed yet. I am assuming conservatories in the UC system would still set their own addon requirements.

e.g https://engineering.berkeley.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/prospective-freshman-faqs/

“What standardized tests should I take?

Freshmen must take the ACT plus Writing or the SAT with Essay. Engineering applicants are also strongly encouraged to take the SAT Subject Test in Math Level 2 and at least one SAT Subject Test in science (Biology E/M, Chemistry or Physics) in order to be as competitive as possible.”

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16 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm not suggesting it.  I'm saying it happens all the time.  It did in my son's health class at a well regarded public high school.  Extra credit, and quite a bit of it.

Then why can't it go both ways?  GPA overcomes subpar test scores and test scores overcome subpar GPA.


ALL THE TOME?! Lol. That is NOT normal. GPA is a DEMONSTRATED better predictor of collegiate success. Test scores are good. They are not AS good. Good, better, best. Why should schools accept an inferior measure over a more proven/reliable one? I am still confused about why homeschoolers would have their panties in a wad over this.

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23 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


ALL THE TOME?! Lol. That is NOT normal. GPA is a DEMONSTRATED better predictor of collegiate success. Test scores are good. They are not AS good. Good, better, best. Why should schools accept an inferior measure over a more proven/reliable one? I am still confused about why homeschoolers would have their panties in a wad over this.


Not according to their own faculty.

“Members of the faculty task force, though, pointed to the tests’ predictive power for measures of student success such as “undergraduate grade point average (UGPA), retention, and completion. At UC, test scores are currently better predictors of first-year GPA than high school grade point average (HSGPA), and about as good at predicting first-year retention, UGPA, and graduation.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/02/04/university-california-should-keep-requiring-sat-or-act-scores-admissions-task-force-says/%3foutputType=amp

Edited by Roadrunner
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21 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@Roadrunner UC engineering school admissions have not changed yet. I am assuming conservatories in the UC system would still set their own addon requirements.

e.g https://engineering.berkeley.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/prospective-freshman-faqs/

“What standardized tests should I take?

Freshmen must take the ACT plus Writing or the SAT with Essay. Engineering applicants are also strongly encouraged to take the SAT Subject Test in Math Level 2 and at least one SAT Subject Test in science (Biology E/M, Chemistry or Physics) in order to be as competitive as possible.”


I bet they haven’t yet updated the info. I can’t imagine engineering schools being shut out from the new social experiment.

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5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


I bet they haven’t yet updated the info. I can’t imagine engineering schools being shut out from the new social experiment.

I am cynical enough to think that it would depend on how high or low their dependence on the revenue stream from international students and out of state students are.

E.g. https://engineering.berkeley.edu/about/facts-and-figures/

“Students

4.55 average GPA of accepted applicants

29.6% of the student body are women

27.5% are international students”

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21 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Depending on who does the study.

“Members of the faculty task force, though, pointed to the tests’ predictive power for measures of student success such as “undergraduate grade point average (UGPA), retention, and completion. At UC, test scores are currently better predictors of first-year GPA than high school grade point average (HSGPA), and about as good at predicting first-year retention, UGPA, and graduation.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/02/04/university-california-should-keep-requiring-sat-or-act-scores-admissions-task-force-says/%3foutputType=amp


A single faculty-led study is weighed More heavily than a decade of research? AAANND in the second paragraph the conflict of interest with SAT/ACT were referenced?!

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7 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I am cynical enough to think that it would depend on how high or low their dependence on the revenue stream from international students and out of state students are.

E.g. https://engineering.berkeley.edu/about/facts-and-figures/

“Students

4.55 average GPA of accepted applicants

29.6% of the student body are women

27.5% are international students”


And the $100 million they want to spend on developing a new test could be used to bus the motivated kids from poor performing schools to community college courses... among many other things they could do to help the underprivileged overachievers not find themselves in remedial courses. 

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Just now, Sneezyone said:


A single faculty-led study is weighed More heavily than a decade of research?


So now UC faculty study isn’t good enough because it doesn’t support your agenda? 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:


So now UC faculty study isn’t good enough because it doesn’t support your agenda? 
 

 


No. I’m saying it doesn’t outweigh everything that has been published to date. many>one.

Edited by Sneezyone

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5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Aaaand again...homeschoolers should care because?


Because entry by examination (SAT scores and SAT subject scores) is among the easiest for independent homeschoolers to satisfy. Unlike APs, finding a spot to take SAT exam is easy. They are offered multiple times a year and are only an hour long and they test high school level work. Try getting a seat for AP exam as a homeschooler. Not easy.
While they haven’t yet taken away SAT option (and that’s not clear if they will or not), if you chose to go with this, you have to compete against kids with overinflated GPAs and no comparable scores will exist for general application pool. 

And DE is an option, but again the costs aloof commute for those of us who live in very rural areas can be prohibitive time wise as well.

Are you a homeschooler?

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15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


No. I’m saying it doesn’t outweigh everything that has been published to date. many>one.


this study was specific for UCs. It has a lot of weight. 
CSU classes locally are at the level of high school classes. What schools and what majors are those studies looking at make all the difference.

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6 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

 

GPA's are NOT the same.  My high school had teachers giving students C's if they just came to class once a week.  Not every day - once a week. My husband was 5th in the class with a great GPA and got slammed when he got to college -- he was so underprepared. He barely made it through his engineering program and tried to drop out of it multiple times.  
 

 

I see the flipside to this situation.  My DH attended a small private school taught by teachers with advanced degrees in their subject area.  A's were given out sparingly.  I attended a big suburban public school, taught by people with education degrees.  A's were easy in every subject except my math classes.    I can count the books on my required reading list for 4 years on 1-2 hands.  He's read pretty much every book in the Western Canon.   

My DH was admitted to Stanford, but the rest of his class...mostly a bunch of state schools or the military or no 4 year college at all.  My high school senior class had students admitted to Stanford, Harvard, MIT, and a bunch of prestigious LACs.  

When later returned as an alumnus, his high school administration asked him what they could do better.  He said:  GRADE INFLATION.  

 

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33 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No. I’m saying it doesn’t outweigh everything that has been published to date. many>one.

Actually, according to the report:

The STTF and its Writing Subcommittee consulted dozens of studies concerning standardized tests, their predictive value, and their impact on access and diversity. It met with the national testing agencies, critics of standardized testing, State education leaders, UC campus admissions officers, UCOP institutional researchers, BOARS, and other UC-based and non-UC content experts. It examined the effectiveness of UC’s current comprehensive review and '9 x 9' admissions policies, and considered the potential benefits and drawbacks of eliminating the testing requirement or moving to a 'test optional' policy. It also considered potential alternative assessment tools, as well as alternative tests that might be more effective in meeting UC’s goals around academic success and diversity.

That the UC administration wants to discount the recommendations in this report--recommendations that are based on substantial research, including analyzing the results of "dozens" of studies, and were developed specifically for the institution in question--makes me think that the move is more political than it is rational.  

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32 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Because entry by examination (SAT scores and SAT subject scores) is among the easiest for independent homeschoolers to satisfy. Unlike APs, finding a spot to take SAT exam is easy. They are offered multiple times a year and are only an hour long and they test high school level work. Try getting a seat for AP exam as a homeschooler. Not easy.
While they haven’t yet taken away SAT option (and that’s not clear if they will or not), if you chose to go with this, you have to compete against kids with overinflated GPAs and no comparable scores will exist for general application pool. 

And DE is an option, but again the costs aloof commute for those of us who live in very rural areas can be prohibitive time wise as well.

Are you a homeschooler?


Whelp, as of June 15, yep. Does that change the question? Nothing has been announced that would change the alternate entry path for homeschoolers. 

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48 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Aaaand again...homeschoolers should care because?

I am not caring as a homeschooler. I am caring as a California taxpayer. The money to create an entrance test to replace SAT and ACT isn’t donated by Mark Zuckerberg or anyone else. It just feels like another bullet train to nowhere.

 

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5 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I am not caring as a homeschooler. I am caring as a California taxpayer. The money to create an entrance test to replace SAT and ACT isn’t donated by Mark Zuckerberg or anyone else. It just feels like another bullet train to nowhere.

 


Yeah, that’s about as much care as I have for it too. UCs aren’t on my short list now and weren’t before. As I said up thread , I’m Not a fan of ACT or SAT and was mostly planning to use it as a recruitment gauge. Developing a new test seems like a total waste of money.

Edited by Sneezyone

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5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


Whelp, as of June 15, yep. Does that change the question? Nothing has been announced that would change the alternate entry path for homeschoolers. 


It does if you are in CA, file a PSA, and want to enter UC. 
I mean we need to think though what that means  because unlike before when our scores were at least compared to other scores, we are now on our own with no way of knowing how they will measure those scores against PS GPAs. Or if they even continue to allow us to send those scores. 

I could see for those homeschoolers who aren’t dealing with UCs, this is a highly philosophical discussion, but those of us who need to make decisions for our children, this is a very real change and not a positive one in my opinion. 

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5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


It does if you are in CA, file a PSA, and want to enter UC. 
I mean we need to think though what that means  because unlike before when our scores were at least compared to other scores, we are now on our own with no way of knowing how they will measure those scores against PS GPAs. Or if they even continue to allow us to send those scores. 

I could see for those homeschoolers who aren’t dealing with UCs, this is a highly philosophical discussion, but those of us who need to make decisions for our children, this is a very real change and not a positive one in my opinion. 


Nothing has been announced that would impact homeschoolers. This is pure speculation, which I’m happy to engage in from time to time, lol, but this isn’t necessarily going to happen. Heck, a simple phone call or two could clear it all up.

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It very much does impact us. I won’t repeat it again how, because you just don’t seem to want to understand. 

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7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


It does if you are in CA, file a PSA, and want to enter UC. 
I mean we need to think though what that means  because unlike before when our scores were at least compared to other scores, we are now on our own with no way of knowing how they will measure those scores against PS GPAs. Or if they even continue to allow us to send those scores. 

I could see for those homeschoolers who aren’t dealing with UCs, this is a highly philosophical discussion, but those of us who need to make decisions for our children, this is a very real change and not a positive one in my opinion. 

 

I think it's very frustrating too for homeschoolers who are told by the UC's "Oh we can't trust your mommy grades so you have to test in by examination" but then suddenly all PS grades are supposedly equal and the SAT is unfairly used to differentiate between students from different schools?

 

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7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

It very much does impact us. I won’t repeat it again how, because you just don’t seem to want to understand. 

 

6 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

 

I think it's very frustrating too for homeschoolers who are told by the UC's "Oh we can't trust your mommy grades so you have to test in by examination" but then suddenly all PS grades are supposedly equal and the SAT is unfairly used to differentiate between students from different schools?

UCs have always claimed to be holistic in their admissions. Dropping the SAT and ACT requirements doesn’t change the fact that it’s still going to be holistic. 

Quoted is their current criteria. The SAT/ACT is just one factor in a long list of 14 factors.

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/freshman/comprehensive-review/

“Comprehensive review

Each campus, in consultation with the UC Office of the President, sets goals that specify the number of new freshmen and transfer students expected to enroll for the fall term.

Most campuses have more qualified applicants than they have room to accommodate, thus, they apply standards that are more demanding than the minimum requirements.

Using a process called comprehensive review, evaluators look beyond test scores and grades to evaluate applicants' academic achievements in light of the opportunities available to them and the capacity each student demonstrates to contribute to the intellectual life of the campus.

To guide the campuses in their comprehensive review of applicants, UC faculty developed the factors listed below. All campuses place the highest importance on academic achievement in evaluating applications. However, the evaluation process and specific weight (if any) given to each factor can differ from campus to campus and year to year. 

Factors we consider

The following criteria provide a comprehensive list of factors campuses may use to select their admitted class. Based on campus-specific institutional goals and needs, admissions decisions will be based on a broad variety of factors:

Academic grade point average in all completed "a-g" courses, including additional points for completed UC-certified honors courses.

Scores on the ACT with Writing, the SAT (taken prior to March 2016) or SAT with Essay (taken March 2016 or later) 

Number of, content of and performance in academic courses beyond the minimum "a-g" requirements.

Number of and performance in UC-approved honors and Advanced Placement courses.

Identification by UC as being ranked in the top 9 percent of their high school class ("eligible in the local context," or ELC).

Quality of a student's senior-year program, as measured by the type and number of academic courses in progress or planned.

Quality of their academic performance relative to the educational opportunities available in their high school.

Outstanding performance in one or more academic subject areas.

Outstanding work in one or more special projects in any academic field of study.

Recent, marked improvement in academic performance, as demonstrated by academic GPA and the quality of coursework completed or in progress.

Special talents, achievements and awards in a particular field, such as visual and performing arts, communication or athletic endeavors; special skills, such as demonstrated written and oral proficiency in other languages; special interests, such as intensive study and exploration of other cultures; experiences that demonstrate unusual promise for leadership, such as significant community service or significant participation in student government; or other significant experiences or achievements that demonstrate the student's promise for contributing to the intellectual vitality of a campus.

Completion of special projects undertaken in the context of a student's high school curriculum or in conjunction with special school events, projects or programs.

Academic accomplishments in light of a student's life experiences and special circumstances.

Location of a student's secondary school and residence.“

 

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18 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


It does if you are in CA, file a PSA, and want to enter UC. 
I mean we need to think though what that means  because unlike before when our scores were at least compared to other scores, we are now on our own with no way of knowing how they will measure those scores against PS GPAs. Or if they even continue to allow us to send those scores. 

I could see for those homeschoolers who aren’t dealing with UCs, this is a highly philosophical discussion, but those of us who need to make decisions for our children, this is a very real change and not a positive one in my opinion. 

I would suggest contacting the admissions office at several campuses and see what answer you get.  I would send emails since that is the most likely way to get a response right now (plus you will have the response in writing.)  Homeschoolers won't be the only ones this impacts b/c private schools aren't required to be accredited or have licensced teachers and it could impact those students as well. I wouldn't panic until you have a clearer picture of what it means.  

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It does seem that, given the potential weakness of various metrics for admission, it would make sense to want to view as much information as possible about any given student. It also seems that the increased focus on GPA is going to lead to a lot of pressure on teachers to inflate grades.

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Next step ban all APs and dual enrollment opportunities for all students? 🤦🏻‍♀️

Dec 10th, 2019 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/us/sat-act-uc-lawsuit.html

“But the plaintiffs are seeking to go beyond test-optional policies and to bar students from submitting test scores even if they want to, according to Mr. Rosenbaum.

“There is no such thing as race-discrimination-optional, there is no such thing as wealth-discrimination-optional,” Mr. Rosenbaum said. “It’s time that we cut that out of the process altogether.””

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7 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

. It also seems that the increased focus on GPA is going to lead to a lot of pressure on teachers to inflate grades.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/San-Francisco-schools-abandon-all-A-s-grading-15233087.php

“The San Francisco school board abandoned a plan to give students automatic A’s on their transcripts this semester, instead adopting a credit/no credit grading policy on Tuesday evening.”

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Next step ban all APs and dual enrollment opportunities for all students? 🤦🏻‍♀️

Dec 10th, 2019 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/us/sat-act-uc-lawsuit.html

“But the plaintiffs are seeking to go beyond test-optional policies and to bar students from submitting test scores even if they want to, according to Mr. Rosenbaum.

“There is no such thing as race-discrimination-optional, there is no such thing as wealth-discrimination-optional,” Mr. Rosenbaum said. “It’s time that we cut that out of the process altogether.””


I can’t open the link (paywall),  but boy does that not surprise me. CA is something else and those behind the lawsuit.... I won’t even go there. It’s so stupid, it’s now entertaining. 
 

Yes, let’s ban DE and AP. 🙂 I won’t  be surprised if that becomes their next target either. 

Edited by Roadrunner

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15 hours ago, EKS said:

I'm not suggesting it.  I'm saying it happens all the time.  It did in my son's health class at a well regarded public high school.  Extra credit, and quite a bit of it.

Then why can't it go both ways?  GPA overcomes subpar test scores and test scores overcome subpar GPA.

I also think that the low grades/high test scores scenario is most common to males. I have know many boys with this combination who have done well in college- in line with expectations from their test scores. To the shock of their parents- they grew up and did the work.

Grades reflect effort, maturity, ability to work a system, and willingness to conform to the rules. All of which girls succeed at earlier than boys.

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18 hours ago, Sneezyone said:


Oh come on! Are you seriously suggesting that high school students are earning grades for bringing in Kleenex?  

 

Grades were sold for food drive donations here...extra credit if you brought in x amount.  When rank is decided in the third decimal, its an issue.  In 2008, it came to a head.  What the nonpc families did made the point - they'd get  a case of canned goods then hand out cans to everybody they knew on free  or reduced lunch or without a job so that kid wouldn't be embarrassed with nothing to turn in and penalized at the same time.  In the PTO, the discussion proceeded.  Yes, food for grades was finally banned. How insensitive can anyone be?  Students were major league stressed with all the parents losing jobs..and they were asked to donate a basic necessity while cash strapped and jobless.  (no garden produce accepted.) No match from the staff, who kept their very well compensated jobs.

What's not banned and should seriously be considered is the 'bringing outside knowledge in' to the essay as a major criterion for a '4' (top possible grade)  Some kids (mostly lower middle class who do not travel internationally) just do not have the enrichment opportunities to gather that knowledge. And some don't understand what the teacher is looking for.  Its no coincidink that val and sal are mostly tks or those with access to  tutors.  The info just isn't available to all via school or community resources.

DE and AP are pay-to-play here.  Of course there is a foundation that supports its preferred demographic.

Edited by HeighHo
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4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Grades were sold for food drive donations here...extra credit if you brought in x amount.  When rank is decided in the third decimal, its an issue.  In 2008, it came to a head.  What the nonpc families did made the point - they'd get  a case of canned goods then hand out cans to everybody they knew on free  or reduced lunch or without a job so that kid wouldn't be embarrassed with nothing to turn in and penalized at the same time.  In the PTO, the discussion proceeded.  Yes, food for grades was finally banned. How insensitive can anyone be?  Students were major league stressed with all the parents losing jobs..and they were asked to donate a basic necessity while cash strapped and jobless.  (no garden produce accepted.) No match from the staff, who kept their very well compensated jobs.

What's not banned and should seriously be considered is the 'bringing outside knowledge in' to the essay as a major criterion for a '4' (top possible grade)  Some kids (mostly lower middle class who do not travel internationally) just do not have the enrichment opportunities to gather that knowledge. And some don't understand what the teacher is looking for.  Its no coincidink that val and sal are mostly tks or those with access to  tutors.  The info just isn't available to all via school or community resources.

DE and AP are pay-to-play here.  Of course there is a foundation that supports its preferred demographic.

DH couldn't figure out why all of his college students were asking him for extra credit... then we sent our son to high school and we learned that his school (a top-10 in state, top-200 in country) requires all classes to offer extra credit on a regular basis for things totally secondary to learning. So now we understand why the college students slack off on the regular work but then expect to be handed extra points at the end of the quarter. Ugh.

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8 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

I also think that the low grades/high test scores scenario is most common to males

Grades reflect effort, maturity, ability to work a system, and willingness to conform to the rules. All of which girls succeed at earlier than boys.

Most common to but not exclusively a male phenomenon. When people on here talk about their frustration with their typical male kid's behavior, I have a daughter who often exhibit(ed) the exact same behavior(s). Just sayin'.

7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

no coincidink that val and sal are mostly tks or those with access to  tutors.

Help me out with a translation, please. What's a tks?

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28 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Most common to but not exclusively a male phenomenon. When people on here talk about their frustration with their typical male kid's behavior, I have a daughter who often exhibit(ed) the exact same behavior(s). Just sayin'.

I had to go to a postgraduate program that uses their own admission tests to assess applicants for me to get a chance to get in. Couldn’t get into any postgraduate program that weighs undergrad GPA heavily. For me it was boredom, I did very well on “hard” exams. 

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On 5/22/2020 at 3:56 PM, Arcadia said:

I am not caring as a homeschooler. I am caring as a California taxpayer. The money to create an entrance test to replace SAT and ACT isn’t donated by Mark Zuckerberg or anyone else. It just feels like another bullet train to nowhere.

 

 

I agree.  Is the UC really planning to create their own entrance exam?  I'm no libertarian by any means, but this looks like a sizable government overstep, especially at the state level.  Reminds me a bit of the a-g fiasco that has California homeschoolers so confused.  

Running your own college entrance exam is a tough undertaking.  I'm no fan of the College Board, but they do have a reasonable infrastructure in place to maintain some amount of exam integrity, along with a reasonable system for distributing test results to schools, and all that other administrative headache.  While not perfect, and SAT subject tests and the AP exams were reasonable approximations of high school academic achievement.  Earning a high score on an SAT biology exam is a reasonable way of proving you studied a bit of biology in high school.  

I am reminded of a conversation I had with the president of the MAA (name drop, lol).  I congratulated him on how the AMC is very nearly a college entrance exam, and universally accepted as a proxy for mathematical achievement.  He actually expressed his dismay at this turn of events, because AMC is so regarded, the MAA has accidentally entered into the college entrance exam business, the score reporting business, the business of ensuring academic integrity, etc. etc.  It was all too much for an organization which supports undergraduate math majors, graduate students, publishes books and journals, and hosts conferences.  

If the MAA struggles, I wonder how the UCs will handle the business of college entrance exams?  (And I'm relieved my own dd#2 won't need to endure this trial.)  

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7 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 Is the UC really planning to create their own entrance exam?  I'm no libertarian by any means, but this looks like a sizable government overstep, especially at the state level.  Reminds me a bit of the a-g fiasco that has California homeschoolers so confused.  

“The University of California Board of Regents today (May 21) unanimously approved the suspension of the standardized test requirement (ACT/SAT) for all California freshman applicants until fall 2024. The suspension will allow the University to create a new test that better aligns with the content the University expects students to have mastered for college readiness. However, if a new test does not meet specified criteria in time for fall 2025 admission, UC will eliminate the standardized testing requirement for California students.”

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/university-california-board-regents-approves-changes-standardized-testing-requirement

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https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/press-room/university-california-board-regents-approves-changes-standardized-testing-requirement

“See the timeline below for the future of standardized testing at UC:

Timeline for the future of standardized testing at UC2021-2022 (current 10th and 11th graders)

Plan  Test-optional

What this means:

All students have the option of submitting ACT/SAT scores.

Students will not be penalized in the admissions review process for not submitting ACT/SAT scores.

Students will no longer be required to submit the SAT Essay/ACT Writing Test.

Test scores used for:

Admissions

Scholarships

Post-enrollment course placement

Statewide eligibility for admissions guarantee

2023-2024 (current 8th and 9th graders)

Plan Test-blind

What this means:

All California public and independent high school students have the option to submit ACT/SAT scores, but those scores may not be used in making admissions decisions.

Academic Senate to work with University administration on appropriate approach for nonresident students.

Test scores used for:

Scholarships

Post-enrollment course placement

Statewide eligibility for admissions guarantee

2025-beyond (current 7th graders)*If there is a new test by fall 2025

All California high school students submit scores from new test.

New test made available to private/independent and out-of-state schools.

Nonresidents and international students submit test scores from the new test or will follow the appropriate approach as determined by the University.

Test scores used for:

Admissions

Scholarships

Post-enrollment course placement

Statewide eligibility for admissions guarantee

Plan *If no new test is ready by fall 2025

UC will eliminate altogether its standardized testing requirement for California freshman admissions.

Academic Senate to work with University administration on appropriate approach for nonresident students.

Test scores used for:

 To be determined”

Edited by Arcadia
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25 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

I agree.  Is the UC really planning to create their own entrance exam?  I'm no libertarian by any means, but this looks like a sizable government overstep, especially at the state level.  Reminds me a bit of the a-g fiasco that has California homeschoolers so confused.  

Running your own college entrance exam is a tough undertaking.  I'm no fan of the College Board, but they do have a reasonable infrastructure in place to maintain some amount of exam integrity, along with a reasonable system for distributing test results to schools, and all that other administrative headache.  While not perfect, and SAT subject tests and the AP exams were reasonable approximations of high school academic achievement.  Earning a high score on an SAT biology exam is a reasonable way of proving you studied a bit of biology in high school.  

I am reminded of a conversation I had with the president of the MAA (name drop, lol).  I congratulated him on how the AMC is very nearly a college entrance exam, and universally accepted as a proxy for mathematical achievement.  He actually expressed his dismay at this turn of events, because AMC is so regarded, the MAA has accidentally entered into the college entrance exam business, the score reporting business, the business of ensuring academic integrity, etc. etc.  It was all too much for an organization which supports undergraduate math majors, graduate students, publishes books and journals, and hosts conferences.  

If the MAA struggles, I wonder how the UCs will handle the business of college entrance exams?  (And I'm relieved my own dd#2 won't need to endure this trial.)  

Colleges having their own entrance exams was quite common among elite universities back before WWII.  Somewhere I have a study book from around 1920 that compiled history questions from about a dozen colleges.  I also have copies of several decades worth of Naval Academy entrance exam questions. 

These exams tended to be heavy on essays and math or physics problems. Like a collection of free response AP questions. 

This is from 1914. https://books.google.com/books?id=Fc4cAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=examination+questions+for+entrance+to+naval+academy&source=bl&ots=esXFzkj6EY&sig=ACfU3U0-G6mvsNwg8a-fYjv0aSp4XltQXQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFubauk8vpAhWaoHIEHZKzC6QQ6AEwD3oECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=examination questions for entrance to naval academy&f=true

Edited by Sebastian (a lady)
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21 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

I agree.  Is the UC really planning to create their own entrance exam?  I'm no libertarian by any means, but this looks like a sizable government overstep, especially at the state level.  Reminds me a bit of the a-g fiasco that has California homeschoolers so confused.  

Running your own college entrance exam is a tough undertaking.  I'm no fan of the College Board, but they do have a reasonable infrastructure in place to maintain some amount of exam integrity, along with a reasonable system for distributing test results to schools, and all that other administrative headache.  While not perfect, and SAT subject tests and the AP exams were reasonable approximations of high school academic achievement.  Earning a high score on an SAT biology exam is a reasonable way of proving you studied a bit of biology in high school.  

I am reminded of a conversation I had with the president of the MAA (name drop, lol).  I congratulated him on how the AMC is very nearly a college entrance exam, and universally accepted as a proxy for mathematical achievement.  He actually expressed his dismay at this turn of events, because AMC is so regarded, the MAA has accidentally entered into the college entrance exam business, the score reporting business, the business of ensuring academic integrity, etc. etc.  It was all too much for an organization which supports undergraduate math majors, graduate students, publishes books and journals, and hosts conferences.  

If the MAA struggles, I wonder how the UCs will handle the business of college entrance exams?  (And I'm relieved my own dd#2 won't need to endure this trial.)  


and unlike AMC exams (we have no way of accessing them unless we drive couple of hours), SATs are easily accessible and subject tests offered several times a year. 

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@Roadrunner

for your oldest. Test scores are still going to be used for course placement and scholarships. 

  • Test-blind for fall 2023 and fall 2024: Campuses will not consider test scores for California public and independent high school applicants in admissions selection, a practice known as “test-blind” admissions. Test scores could still be considered for other purposes such as course placement, certain scholarships and eligibility for the statewide admissions guarantee.”

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45 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@Roadrunner

for your oldest. Test scores are still going to be used for course placement and scholarships. 

  • Test-blind for fall 2023 and fall 2024: Campuses will not consider test scores for California public and independent high school applicants in admissions selection, a practice known as “test-blind” admissions. Test scores could still be considered for other purposes such as course placement, certain scholarships and eligibility for the statewide admissions guarantee.”


Are we considered independent high school applicants? So entry by examination is no longer possible? And what on earth is statewide admissions guarantee? Is that TAG?

Edited by Roadrunner

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29 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Are we considered independent high school applicants? So entry by examination is no longer possible? And what on earth is statewide admissions guarantee? Is that TAG?

 Not TAG which is for transfers. The other two programs 

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/california-residents/

“Statewide guarantee 

You must rank in the top 9 percent of California students according to our admissions index.

Learn more about the statewide guarantee »

Local guarantee (Eligibility in the Local Context) 

You must rank in the top 9 percent of your graduating class at a participating California high school. This is also known as Eligibility in the Local Context (ELC).“

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27 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Are we considered independent high school applicants? So entry by examination is no longer possible? And what on earth is statewide admissions guarantee? Is that TAG?

I think that's the ELC (Eligible in the Local Context) thing. That seems very similar to the system we have in TX. If I had to wager, I'd bet CA is going to find out pretty quickly that they'll need to use test scores for OOS kids and others who don't fit well in the system. For example, competitive entrance magnet schools become very unattractive if they're subject to top 10% rules.

I wonder if the new test will be similar to the Accuplacer test that CCs currently use? That doesn't get much push back and seems to do an okay job of weeding out people who need remedial coursework.

Or they could go the Abitur/Bac/Maturite route and have essay tests and worked problems. So, basically, a series of AP type tests taken over a couple of days. That would be a huge project to grade but it would probably do the best job of identifying the best students for the top UCs. 

If I had an 8th or 9th grader in CA, I think I'd be looking at starting at a CC and transfering.

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15 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 Not TAG which is for transfers. The other two programs 

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/california-residents/

“Statewide guarantee 

You must rank in the top 9 percent of California students according to our admissions index.

Learn more about the statewide guarantee »

Local guarantee (Eligibility in the Local Context) 

You must rank in the top 9 percent of your graduating class at a participating California high school. This is also known as Eligibility in the Local Context (ELC).“


So they won’t look at the test to admit but will look at it to see if you qualify to be admitted? Mind turning 😆

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27 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I think that's the ELC (Eligible in the Local Context) thing. That seems very similar to the system we have in TX. If I had to wager, I'd bet CA is going to find out pretty quickly that they'll need to use test scores for OOS kids and others who don't fit well in the system. For example, competitive entrance magnet schools become very unattractive if they're subject to top 10% rules.

I wonder if the new test will be similar to the Accuplacer test that CCs currently use? That doesn't get much push back and seems to do an okay job of weeding out people who need remedial coursework.

Or they could go the Abitur/Bac/Maturite route and have essay tests and worked problems. So, basically, a series of AP type tests taken over a couple of days. That would be a huge project to grade but it would probably do the best job of identifying the best students for the top UCs. 

If I had an 8th or 9th grader in CA, I think I'd be looking at starting at a CC and transfering.


We will use CC for only very few things. Most classes are filled with remedial students. It’s really not a positive environment overall, but can be if you approach them surgically. Our local PS has fewer options than CC, but a much richer and safer environment for a younger student. What was nice about test option is you could homeschool WTM way and easily qualify with SAT subject tests. APs are still on the table, but they are harder to find testing location. This is what I have been saying all along. This isn’t a good development for non traditional kids. 

And SAT is easier than Accuolacer. They can’t possibly argue that tutoring won’t improve accuplacer scores. That’s ridiculous. I thought the entire idea was SAT scores can be improved by tutors and rich kids get tutoring, so it’s unfair. Well, exactly the same thing can be said about accuplacer or any idea knowledge based test. Unless of course they want to start running IQ tests, which aren’t coachable. 🙂 I could see that going nowhere.

And GPAs are also very susceptible to tutoring. Most Asian families we know locally have tutors afterschool. Usually white families only employ tutors here for kids who are struggling, but that can change with this new GPA focus. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


We will use CC for only very few things. Most classes are filled with remedial students. 

I don't understand what you mean. If a class is college level and can be transferred, it's not remedial. The students that are in it have either passed the accuplacer or passed the prerequisite remedial class. They've demonstrated that they mastered high school level content and can take a college level class for credit. That's the whole point of CCs using the accuplacer and offering remedial classes. They take students that weren't capable of college level work and teach them to that level.

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13 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I don't understand what you mean. If a class is college level and can be transferred, it's not remedial. The students that are in it have either passed the accuplacer or passed the prerequisite remedial class. They've demonstrated that they mastered high school level content and can take a college level class for credit. That's the whole point of CCs using the accuplacer and offering remedial classes. They take students that weren't capable of college level work and teach them to that level.


well, those lines are very blurred really. For example, you can take a semester long bio class at a CC that is equivalent to a high school level course and at our local CC it is much worse that what a local high school offers for honors level. There is an equivalent class for all the sciences. There are also sciences for majors, so biology for biology majors, which would be at a completely different level. And those would be “college level.” Same with math. Anything below Calculus is filled with kids struggling with math. Calculus isn’t proof based. First year English is mostly discussions about sitcoms and a lot of sexual content (appropriate for college students but probably not for younger kids).... I could go on. Now in the midst of this there are some gems, but you need to find them.

I don’t care about transferability of credit. My child is in high school, so the goal is to provide best education that we see fit for his age. If I wanted him to be a full time college student, we wouldn’t pick CC. 
 

 

Oh, CA no longer does any placement tests. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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18 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


well, those lines are very blurred really. For example, you can take a semester long bio class at a CC that is equivalent to a high school level course and at our local CC it is much worse that what a local high school offers for honors level. There is an equivalent class for all the sciences. There are also sciences for majors, so biology for biology majors, which would be at a completely different level. And those would be “college level.” Same with math. Anything below Calculus is filled with kids struggling with math. Calculus isn’t proof based. First year English is mostly discussions about sitcoms and a lot of sexual content (appropriate for college students but probably not for younger kids).... I could go on. Now in the midst of this there are some gems, but you need to find them.

I don’t care about transferability of credit. My child is in high school, so the goal is to provide best education that we see fit for his age. If I wanted him to be a full time college student, we wouldn’t pick CC. 
 

 

Oh, CA no longer does any placement tests. 

Umm, I took "Rocks for Jocks" at Penn because I was a business major and didn't need a major level science to fulfill my distributional requirement. It was a really fun class and I still remember quite a bit from it, but it was very lite. I think every college, even the Ivies, has these classes for the non-science majors to take to fulfill requirements. They even have time honored nicknames: Rocks for Jocks (geology), Physics for Poets, Biology Appreciation.

My Wharton-required business calc class also didn't include proofs, although the second semester did include linear algebra and other business topics not normally included in the engineering calc sequence. I placed out of English comp so I don't know what they did but I would not be gobsmacked to find out that they wrote essays about pop culture instead of literature because that first class was purely composition. If you were a liberal arts major you had to take literature classes too.

Edited by chiguirre

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