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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT


Roadrunner
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46 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


this is a terrible system that punishes kids for taking courses in music and arts just because they aren’t AP. And if this ranking is by school, it’s going to punish Asian kids who work so hard but are often geographically more segregated. And standards in schools are so different from better schools in Bay Area to migrant rural communities here where my friend is handing out A’s just to encourage kids to show up.  By the way only 3 outlet of 40 if her students have bothered to check in online. 

 


Asian kids aren’t the only ones segregated. *Slaps forehead*. Achieving geographic diversity is often a proxy for race/ethnicity/opportunity in America.

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12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


Asian kids aren’t the only ones segregated. *Slaps forehead*. Achieving geographic diversity is often a proxy for race/ethnicity/opportunity in America.


i guess I believe university entrance should be based on academic merit not the color of the skin.

 

keep slapping your forehead and maybe you will understand what I am trying to say.

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12 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


i guess I believe university entrance should be based on academic merit not the color of the skin.

 

keep slapping your forehead and maybe you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

So, you don't want to use grades. You don't want geographic diversity that includes the top performers state or nationwide. You don't want people who've demonstrated sustained superior performance to have priority over those who cram for a single exam. Exactly what kind of academic merit are you for exactly? Only the kind that primarily benefits lazy/troubled upper middle class kids?

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 

So, you don't want to use grades. You don't want geographic diversity that includes the top performers state or nationwide. You don't want people who've demonstrated sustained superior performance to have priority over those who cram for a single exam. Exactly what kind of merit are you for? 


Most of those measures are already successfully used. I want some sort of standardized measure of comparison. Apples to apples academic exam. I 100% agree with previous view taken by UC academic faculty, which was disregarded. 

Actually I was hoping for more discussion here how this decision affects homeschoolers (not those who homeschool but get APs diplomas) given that this is a homeschool board, but obviously the conversation went into a different place. 

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2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Most of those measures are already successfully used. I want some sort of standardized measure of comparison. Apples to apples academic exam. I 100% agree with previous view taken by UC academic faculty, which was disregarded. 

Actually I was hoping for more discussion here how this decision affects homeschoolers (not those who homeschool but get APs diplomas) given that this is a homeschool board, but obviously the conversation went into a different place. 

 

The problem with any 'standardized measure of comparison' is that it will never be a standardized measure of comparison in this country. We don't have standardized curriculum, course loads, or anything else like countries with national standardized tests. ACT/SAT have never been as good a measure as the grades schools offer. I don't actually think this will affect homeschoolers at all. It's just another thing to kvetch about. Homeschoolers have long had separate and distinct avenues to admission. This does not appear to change that.

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11 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Like wealthy kids don’t have inflated grades? Grade inflation, to the extent it exists, is everywhere but primarily concentrated in competitive, wealthy areas. Those are also the people with access to test prep and superior public schools. I’m not sure what you’re saying supports this argument that students with high test scores absent high grades deserve admission.

We have been in a wealthy CA district and my daughter attended a school for a year with peers that called Berkeley "Westview 2.0". They all viewed their high school as competitive and stressful as Berkeley.  There was no grade inflation -- these kids worked so HARD for their grades and were stressed all the time.  A 4.0 from there does NOT compare to a 4.0 elsewhere. We moved, my dd attended a more well rounded high school, worked hard but a normal amount, and got a 4.2 overall when she graduated. If she had stayed, she would not have gotten a 4.0.  She was actually heading for a breakdown from the stress. 

GPA's are NOT the same.  My high school had teachers giving students C's if they just came to class once a week.  Not every day - once a week. My husband was 5th in the class with a great GPA and got slammed when he got to college -- he was so underprepared. He barely made it through his engineering program and tried to drop out of it multiple times.  
 

Ending the SAT isn't correcting inequality.  The bigger problem is having such a huge variety of public schools that are either preparing well, somewhat preparing, or not at all preparing kids for college.   I think that is the real travesty that shouldn't wait until the college level to be fixed. 

Edited by SanDiegoMom in VA
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6 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

We have been in a wealthy CA district and my daughter attended a school for a year with peers that called Berkeley "Westview 2.0". They all viewed their high school as competitive and stressful as Berkeley.  There was no grade inflation -- these kids worked so HARD for their grades and were stressed all the time.  A 4.0 from there does NOT compare to a 4.0 elsewhere. We moved, my dd attended a more well rounded high school, worked hard but a normal amount, and got a 4.2 overall when she graduated. If she had stayed, she would not have gotten a 4.0.  She was actually heading for a breakdown from the stress. 

GPA's are NOT the same.  My high school had teachers giving students C's if they just came to class once a week.  Not every day - once a week. My husband was 5th in the class with a great GPA and got slammed when he got to college -- he was so underprepared. He barely made it through his engineering program and tried to drop out of it multiple times.  
 

Ending the SAT isn't correcting inequality.  The bigger problem is having such a huge variety of public schools that are either preparing well, somewhat preparing, or not at all preparing kids for college.   I think that is the real travesty that shouldn't wait until the college level to be fixed. 

 

I am saying that grades are a measure of EFFORT and the ability to maximize whatever is available to you. That maximal level of effort (and the attendant external issues at play) is relative. The kid struggling to get a 4.0 in podunk with limited course offerings and a side job has worked just as freaking hard with just as much personal stress. The inability to see that effort, in AND out of the classroom, is also a significant measure of merit is a national shame. Decreasing the value of a single test increases the importance of these other factors. That said, no one wants to think there is grade inflation anywhere but it does exist. I know that education quality varies nationwide and I have attended awesome schools and sub-par ones that were the best the region had to offer at the time. Moving in with a different foundation doesn't mean the kids who were there the whole time weren't also doing the best with what they were offered too.

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5 hours ago, Sneezyone said:


Possibly but I think that’s something for the student to sort out not the admissions committee.

But from articles I’ve read, most students don’t realize until they get there and start taking some of the freshman weeder classes how unprepared they are compared to many of their classmates. I know awhile back there was an article about students at Stanford who encountered this and I’ve read others. Plus, as I related above, I’ve known people who experienced this.

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5 minutes ago, Frances said:

But from articles I’ve read, most students don’t realize until they get there and start taking some of the freshman weeder classes how unprepared they are compared to many of their classmates. I know awhile back there was an article about students at Stanford who encountered this and I’ve read others. Plus, as I related above, I’ve known people who experienced this.

 

True. I believe very strongly in increasing support for programs like TRIO that can make a difference for kids in these situations. Unfortunately, this is another thing that people who support a test-based vision of merit do not support. I would hope this kind of change would go hand in hand with additional support for TRIO programs.

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4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I am saying that grades are a measure of EFFORT and the ability to maximize whatever is available to you. That maximal level of effort (and the attendant external issues at play) is relative. The kid struggling to get a 4.0 in podunk with limited course offerings and a side job has worked just as freaking hard with just as much personal stress. The inability to see that effort, in AND out of the classroom, is also a significant measure of merit is a national shame. Decreasing the value of a single test increases the importance of these other factors. That said, no one wants to think there is grade inflation anywhere but it does exist. I know that education quality varies nationwide and I have attended awesome schools and sub-par ones that were the best the region had to offer at the time. Moving in with a different foundation doesn't mean the kids who were there the whole time weren't also doing the best with what they were offered too.


this sums up the culture of participation trophies. 
We reward effort but not result.

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6 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


this sums up the culture of participation trophies. 
We reward effort but not result.

And the EFFORT is so uneven! Some kids have hours of study and homework to get an A in AP chem, say, while I know another kid who went to a charter that basically gave out A's, got an A in Honors Chem and AP chem and just flunked out of intro to chem in college, she was so underprepared. Two years of chem and A's in both! The effort cannot be measured fairly across such enormously different school expectations.  

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16 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


this sums up the culture of participation trophies. 
We reward effort but not result.

 

No, this is a culture that prefers to do everything by local control. We cannot have it both ways. You either want localities to set their own standards or you don't. Overlaying a national exam on widely disparate educational foundations isn't going to work. Ultimately, we have programs that can and will support kids who lack adequate preparation but have tons of drive. A lot of the same people decrying these sorts of policy changes do not want to support those programs. Why do you suppose that is? My personal opinion is that too many people want to rig the game in favor of themselves and their kids and damn the consequences. Yes we moved here for good schools with lots of varied offerings but we don't have that now so.... My kids are having to show initiative to continue learning. They don't have jobs. They don't have siblings to care for. They aren't in a single parent home. They have had every opportunity (not the creme de la creme) to show up and show out and I have told them VERY explicitly that they are entitled to nothing. My peeps will get in where they fit in based on their grades and that's it. We will not be paying for SAT/ACT prep (it's available free, online) or any other such foolishness. They will be FINE.

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47 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Actually I was hoping for more discussion here how this decision affects homeschoolers (not those who homeschool but get APs diplomas) given that this is a homeschool board, but obviously the conversation went into a different place. 

A neighbor whose kid is in public high school called me yesterday night in a panic to ask what her son can do online (classes, camps) in summer to be more competitive. She tried to get hold of her son’s guidance counselor around noon but haven’t heard back so she called me.
 

Parents with kids in public schools are also worried because their kids are already not getting letter grades this semester, and now colleges go test optional.  
 

I expect the different scrutiny for homeschoolers when applying to colleges will just stay status quo. 

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:


Actually I was hoping for more discussion here how this decision affects homeschoolers (not those who homeschool but get APs diplomas) given that this is a homeschool board, but obviously the conversation went into a different place. 

At some point, homeschoolers need outside validation of their academic ability. That can be achieved by AP testing or dual enrollment (especially if you're aiming at an in-state public university that will be familiar with the CCs). There might be some more creative ways to achieve this with Math Olympiads or science competitions or essay contests, but the most accessible will be APs and/or DE.

ETA: I don't think just submitting an ACT or SAT score is enough because they are aptitude tests not achievement tests. They don't show subject mastery, they show quick thinking and staying calm under pressure.

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:


Most of those measures are already successfully used. I want some sort of standardized measure of comparison. Apples to apples academic exam. I 100% agree with previous view taken by UC academic faculty, which was disregarded. 

Actually I was hoping for more discussion here how this decision affects homeschoolers (not those who homeschool but get APs diplomas) given that this is a homeschool board, but obviously the conversation went into a different place. 

Just to keep perspective , optional does not equate to ignored. Just bc test scores are optional in general does not mean a homeschooler cannot submit them as validation of quality of ed. SAT and subject tests will demonstrate what you are asking.

Some of my kids have taken CLEP exams that offer no credit to some schools applied to. It doesn't mean those scores were worthless to those schools. In our profile I discuss our approach and that APs are not an objective. 

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There are quite a few Asian kids from Gunn in my community college classes that I am taking for fun but they are taking for credit. From current freshmen to juniors. Won’t be surprised if summer quarter has more high school students as everyone is still stuck at home. 
Asians are used to holistic admissions being branded about by colleges for years and the families who want to game the system would just continue gaming the system. 

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10 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

At some point, homeschoolers need outside validation of their academic ability. That can be achieved by AP testing or dual enrollment (especially if you're aiming at an in-state public university that will be familiar with the CCs). There might be some more creative ways to achieve this with Math Olympiads or science competitions or essay contests, but the most accessible will be APs and/or DE.

ETA: I don't think just submitting an ACT or SAT score is enough because they are aptitude tests not achievement tests. They don't show subject mastery, they show quick thinking and staying calm under pressure.


If SAT is an aptitude test then why is it so susceptible to coaching? I think good (not great) math skills, basic understanding of grammar, and mediocre vocabulary accounts for the majority of that score.  Maybe it used to be an aptitude test in the past. Now it’s a mediocre test of math/English skills.

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11 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

ETA: I don't think just submitting an ACT or SAT score is enough because they are aptitude tests not achievement tests. They don't show subject mastery, they show quick thinking and staying calm under pressure.

The community college my kids dual enroll in does not accept SAT or ACT scores. Kids have to do a English and Math placement test for classes with those prerequisites unless they have AP scores. They have placement test for chemistry as well.

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5 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Just to keep perspective , optional does not equate to ignored. Just bc test scores are optional in general does not mean a homeschooler cannot submit them as validation of quality of ed. SAT and subject tests will demonstrate what you are asking.

Some of my kids have taken CLEP exams that offer no credit to some schools applied to. It doesn't mean those scores were worthless to those schools. In our profile I discuss our approach and that APs are not an objective. 


Everybody takes DE. I can’t see how that is going to help those kids differentiate. Community Colleges here are now like high schools. Not a bad thing. Just saying. 

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16 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

No word on how this will affect homeschoolers who relied on “entry by examination.” 

It’s also going to be interesting to see what they will do with near identical transcripts of PS kids and high percentage of A’s in richer schools. Is this going to further drive AP craze or DE craze to boost GPAs? 

I thought this article from the LA Times had more about the vote & thought process and fight than the original one linked. 

It really doesn't say anything about admission by exam, does it? They will have to figure out if that process stays the same. Not a fun transition over the next five years, I imagine.

I think the discussion in this thread really highlights how different the education systems are across the nation. There is a big difference across towns, districts, and states, but huge differences across the nation as well. (I often don't follow HeighHo's posts well because it is just such a different experience there that it almost seems like that area has their own lingo.)

I would not want to rely on the UCs with all this going on. It is good to have options.

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The thing that helps kids differentiate is passion for something, anything. They need to show consistency in, dedication to, and deeper thought and study of the things they care about. I hear all of this talk about cookie cutter transcripts and yet DDs will look nothing like her friends, partly due to this school closure but also because of the things she is passionate about. It'll be chock full of architecture and design work, both physical and virtual. Her school offers every AP under the sun and she's NOT taking them. They're simply irrelevant. I do not understand why this would impact the homeschool community at all insofar as they should ALREADY be crafting course paths that make their kids stand out and recognize their individuality.

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27 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Everybody takes DE. I can’t see how that is going to help those kids differentiate. Community Colleges here are now like high schools. Not a bad thing. Just saying. 

It’s to satisfy the take the highest course available for those public school kids. Some of their “highest course available“ is dual enrollment courses. A senior in my district’s public high school finished calculus BC in 9th grade and then dual enroll for math after that until he graduate next month. 
 

13 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

. (I often don't follow HeighHo's posts well because it is just such a different experience there that it almost seems like that area has their own lingo.)

I understand her posts because something similar is still happening in my school district. There is an element of keep the voters happy for school board elections in my district’s case.

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27 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The thing that helps kids differentiate is passion for something, anything. They need to show consistency in, dedication to, and deeper thought and study of the things they care about. I hear all of this talk about cookie cutter transcripts and yet DDs will look nothing like her friends, partly due to this school closure but also because of the things she is passionate about. It'll be chock full of architecture and design work, both physical and virtual. Her school offers every AP under the sun and she's NOT taking them. They're simply irrelevant. I do not understand why this would impact the homeschool community at all insofar as they should ALREADY be crafting course paths that make their kids stand out and recognize their individuality.


Extracurriculars cost tremendous amount of money. For all the talk of equality, nothing is more unequal than access to quality programs outside of schools. And if you truly want to be good at anything (music, dance, sports...), you need those programs. 
Very few kids (or adults for that matter) have passions over things. It is very harmful to keep telling them that they should, because it can make them feel like something isn’t right if they aren’t crazy over a certain subject. It is much more productive to prepare them well so they can explore a number of things they can potentially like and be good at. Again, most of us will never develop passions in one area. There are few talented kids who were born to become painters or musicians, but it isn’t a norm. 
Norm is high school where options for classes are limited. In fact you don’t get to say much in our district until you hit 11th grade and even then the choices are not that different (AP US History versus Honors Us History, an elective or two...). The norm is homework and some afterschool sports and clubs, which leave very little time to sink in the couch to relax. In fact most kids with gazillion APs (soon to become even more important as GPAs take even more prominent roles) study until 2 AM. Every single person we know who has gotten a research opportunity or an interesting internship has done so because of the family connections. Somebody in the family had a know how to direct it. Again, a tremendous sign of privilege. 

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2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Extracurriculars cost tremendous amount of money. For all the talk of equality, nothing is more unequal than access to quality programs outside of schools. And if you truly want to be good at anything (music, dance, sports...), you need those programs. 
Very few kids (or adults for that matter) have passions over things. It is very harmful to keep telling them that they should, because it can make them feel like something isn’t right if they aren’t crazy over a certain subject. It is much more productive to prepare them well so they can explore a number of things they can potentially like and be good at. Again, most of us will never develop passions in one area. There are few talented kids who were born to become painters or musicians, but it isn’t a norm. 
Norm is high school where options for classes are limited. In fact you don’t get to say much in our district until you hit 11th grade and even then the choices are not that different (AP US History versus Honors Us History, an elective or two...). The norm is homework and some afterschool sports and clubs, which leave very little time to sink in the couch to relax. In fact most kids with gazillion APs (soon to become even more important as GPAs take even more prominent roles) study until 2 AM. Every single person we know who has gotten a research opportunity or an interesting internship has done so because of the family connections. Somebody in the family had a know how to direct it. Again, a tremendous sign of privilege. 

And that's what I am afraid will become more important now -- no SAT's might mean higher weight on extracurriculars.  Which require money, parental time (drive them back and forth, volunteer, etc).  

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1 minute ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

And that's what I am afraid will become more important now -- no SAT's might mean higher weight on extracurriculars.  Which require money, parental time (drive them back and forth, volunteer, etc).  

And is an easy proxy for family income (in general). Private high schools are an indirect proxy for family income given that scholarships are usually listed in the counselor letter.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Judge-UC-can-be-sued-for-discrimination-against-15281645.php

“Judge: UC can be sued for discrimination against low-income students due to use of SAT, ACT exams for admissions

Updated: May 19, 2020 8:07 p.m.

 

A judge says the University of California can be sued for allegedly discriminating against low-income, minority and disabled applicants by mandating the SAT and ACT as an admissions requirement. The ruling comes as UC prepares to decide whether to stop making standardized tests a mandatory part of the application process.”

 

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21 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


Extracurriculars cost tremendous amount of money. For all the talk of equality, nothing is more unequal than access to quality programs outside of schools. And if you truly want to be good at anything (music, dance, sports...), you need those programs. 
Very few kids (or adults for that matter) have passions over things. It is very harmful to keep telling them that they should, because it can make them feel like something isn’t right if they aren’t crazy over a certain subject. It is much more productive to prepare them well so they can explore a number of things they can potentially like and be good at. Again, most of us will never develop passions in one area. There are few talented kids who were born to become painters or musicians, but it isn’t a norm. 
Norm is high school where options for classes are limited. In fact you don’t get to say much in our district until you hit 11th grade and even then the choices are not that different (AP US History versus Honors Us History, an elective or two...). The norm is homework and some afterschool sports and clubs, which leave very little time to sink in the couch to relax. In fact most kids with gazillion APs (soon to become even more important as GPAs take even more prominent roles) study until 2 AM. Every single person we know who has gotten a research opportunity or an interesting internship has done so because of the family connections. Somebody in the family had a know how to direct it. Again, a tremendous sign of privilege. 

 

I'm not talking about expensive extracurriculars and I don't buy into the idea that everyone has to be a generalist. Within DDs school she has been able to specialize in these things by taking design- and construction-focused classes...for free. She opted OUT of AP Human Geography in her course plan so she could take other things that matter more to her...more math, more science, more art. She has already fulfilled the graduation requirements for language. We have also supplemented with Zoom interviews with working architects (yes, to secure job shadowing/mentorship opportunities) and a couple of Outschool classes since school's been out, like less than $200. We don't have any architects in our family or circle. I reached out to other parents. To date, that's it but she is a freshman. People spend ( I know we did) WAAAAYYY more on sports than what we've spent on her area of interest. 

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5 hours ago, madteaparty said:

You’re joking? The wealthy “game”* everything, but the kid straight off the boat with parents who speak no English and a tattered library copy of the SAT might get into a Stuyvesant or a UC. Look at the Stuyvesant admissions and  see if it’s the “wealthy” winning that game.

i wish schools would be honest and say this is not about fairness but about us being free to socially engineer via “wholesome” admissions. I’m practically communist so no one cares more than me about equality, but this ain’t it. 
* some say game, some say educate their kids k-12. If paying 60 grand a year for your GPA and school name isn’t the ultimate gaming... little old SAT isn’t your problem.

 

 The Stu has has the same admission situation that the UCs have.  40% of the UCs  are asian. 60% of the Stu is asian.  Mainly because admission is by a single test. Top 850 get in.  Ongoing heated debate about increasing diversity. I think only a total of 25 Black and Hispanic students were offered admission last year.   Remember this is a public school.  The wealthy in NY go to private school for $60k, and  a lot of the privates are ranked higher than the Stu.

 

Admission to Stuyvesant involves passing the Specialized High Schools Admissions Test. Every March, the 800 to 850 applicants with the highest SHSAT scores out of the around 30,000 eighth- and ninth-graders who apply to Stuyvesant are accepted.[11] The school has a wide range of extracurricular activities,[12] including a theater competition called SING! and two student publications. Notable alumni include physicists Brian Greene and Lisa Randall, mathematician Paul Cohen, chemist Roald Hoffmann and genome researcher Eric Lander.

 

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16 minutes ago, gstharr said:

 The Stu has has the same admission situation that the UCs have.  40% of the UCs  are asian. 60% of the Stu is asian.  Mainly because admission is by a single test. Top 850 get in.  Ongoing heated debate about increasing diversity. I think only a total of 25 Black and Hispanic students were offered admission last year.   Remember this is a public school.  The wealthy in NY go to private school for $60k, and  a lot of the privates are ranked higher than the Stu.

 

 


because Asian kids work their butts off. UCs are no longer allowed to take race into consideration. Now they must find new ways to limit Asian population. 🙄

 

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There are quite substantial amounts of first generation and low income applicants to UCs

https://ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/factsheets/2020/table-3-california-applicant-profile.pdf

Asians are 31% of applicants, Latinos are 38% of applicants 

https://ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/factsheets/2020/table-2.1-california-freshman-applications-by-campus-and-race-ethnicity.pdf

For 2019, their admit is 107,688 and enroll is 45,951. That’s less than half for yield rate.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/admissions-residency-and-ethnicity

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1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:


because Asian kids work their butts off. UCs are no longer allowed to take race into consideration. Now they must find new ways to limit Asian population. 🙄

 

Their fundamental problem is that they need to serve all Californians. If all the spots at the best universities go to one group, there will quickly be a movement to defund them. That's how TX bumbled around and came up with the automatic admission system. That appeals to lots of constituencies: rural populations that have limited opportunities because of the size of their schools, poor districts that can only afford what they can afford, schools that serve minority communities, schools that have huge non-native speaker populations, etc. Between the conservative lawmakers from rural areas and the liberal lawmakers from poor areas, there is strong backing for the auto admit system. As much as suburban parents might like to complain, they don't have much of a leg to stand on because the rules are the same for everyone. Some people do game the system by moving to "easier" high schools.  Lots of people choose private schools on a par with TAMU which conveniently offer merit scholarships that reduce their tuition to be competitive with our public universities. Lots of people choose schools that are strong, but not as well known as UT or TAMU: UT Dallas and U of Houston are good examples of that. Some people go to out of state flagships. There are easily as many LSU, OSU and U of OK stickers as UT or TAMU stickers on cars in my town.

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9 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Their fundamental problem is that they need to serve all Californians. If all the spots at the best universities go to one group, there will quickly be a movement to defund them. That's how TX bumbled around and came up with the automatic admission system. That appeals to lots of constituencies: rural populations that have limited opportunities because of the size of their schools, poor districts that can only afford what they can afford, schools that serve minority communities, schools that have huge non-native speaker populations, etc. Between the conservative lawmakers from rural areas and the liberal lawmakers from poor areas, there is strong backing for the auto admit system. As much as suburban parents might like to complain, they don't have much of a leg to stand on because the rules are the same for everyone. Some people do game the system by moving to "easier" high schools.  Lots of people choose private schools on a par with TAMU which conveniently offer merit scholarships that reduce their tuition to be competitive with our public universities. Lots of people choose schools that are strong, but not as well known as UT or TAMU: UT Dallas and U of Houston are good examples of that. Some people go to out of state flagships. There are easily as many LSU, OSU and U of OK stickers as UT or TAMU stickers on cars in my town.


CA is supposed to be race neutral. It’s not supposed to see white, Asian, black, Hispanic for admissions. It’s supposed to be merit based. 
They aren’t saying they want to change their merit based system. They are pretending their new one is also merit based and race blind.

Edited by Roadrunner
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@chiguirre

I know people (as in their kids) using this route 

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/california-residents/local-guarantee-elc.html

“Local guarantee (ELC)

Our Eligibility in the Local Context (ELC) program recognizes your individual accomplishments in light of the opportunities offered by your particular high school.

What is ELC?

The ELC program ensures that academically talented and deserving California residentstudents from all over the state have the opportunity to join us at UC.

ELC status adds value to the application and is one of the 14 factors considered when applications are reviewed. Additionally, ELC students not admitted to any of their campus choices are offered a spot at a UC campus that has space, if minimum UC requirements are met.

How do I qualify?

If you are a California resident and rank in the top 9 percent of students in your California high school class — and your high school participates in our ELC program — you may be eligible for ELC designation.“

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Just now, Roadrunner said:


CA is supposed to be race neutral. It’s not supposed to see white, Asian, black, Hispanic for admissions. It’s supposed to be merit based. 

The state of CA is supposed to be race neutral, but I guarantee you that taxpayers are not. If they see that their kids have no shot at getting in to UCB or UCLA (or even the other UCs) they will quickly decide that funding for the public universities should be cut in favor of programs that do serve their kids. I can even imagine the ads. "Why does California spend $XX Billions to subsidize the tuition of elite students when our Cal State system is impacted?" 

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41 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

True. I believe very strongly in increasing support for programs like TRIO that can make a difference for kids in these situations. Unfortunately, this is another thing that people who support a test-based vision of merit do not support. I would hope this kind of change would go hand in hand with additional support for these programs.

I’m not familiar with TRIO, but I have read about some programs that can help. I do hope they are open to all students who desire a spot though, including those from small, rural high schools. When I was in grad school and worked one summer for such a program at my university, invitation was entirely based on skin color and there were kids in it who attended private schools or rigorous public high schools and whose parents were professors, doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. But white or Asian kids from small, rural high schools or first generation white or Asian students were not invited to participate, and since they weren’t even students yet, they didn’t know about. I’m guessing that all first generation students are now included, I don’t know about those from less rigorous high schools.

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3 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m not familiar with TRIO, but I have read about some programs that can help. I do hope they are open to all students who desire a spot though, including those from small, rural high schools. When I was in grad school and worked one summer for such a program at my university, invitation was entirely based on skin color and there were kids in it who attended private schools or rigorous public high schools and whose parents were professors, doctors, lawyers, CPAs, etc. But white or Asian kids from small, rural high schools or first generation white or Asian students were not invited to participate, and since they weren’t even students yet, they didn’t know about. I’m guessing that all first generation students are now included, I don’t know about those from less rigorous high schools.


The program I helped run, an offshoot of TRIO, pushed support services down to the middle school level. Our program targeted rural and urban populations in eastern and western Washington, including on reservations.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/trio/index.html

https://www2.ed.gov/programs/gearup/index.html

 

Edited by Sneezyone
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5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


The program I helped run, an offshoot of TRIO pushed support services down to the middle school level. Our program targeted rural and urban populations in eastern and western Washington, including on reservations.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/trio/index.html

https://www2.ed.gov/programs/gearup/index.html

 

That sounds like a much better target audience than the program I worked for while in grad school. It sounds more similar to Upward Bound which some of my high school classmates were part of and which I worked for one summer while my husband was in grad school.  I think offering extra support for low income and first generation college students makes much more sense.

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9 minutes ago, Frances said:

That sounds like a much better target audience than the program I worked for while in grad school. It sounds more similar to Upward Bound which some of my high school classmates were part of and which I worked for one summer while my husband was in grad school.  I think offering extra support for low income and first generation college students makes much more sense.


GEAR UP was the successor to Upward Bound. The program was so successful in WA that the legislature decided to fund the scholarship component as part of the grant match. Ongoing mentorship was offered to college enrollees too. Lots of lessons available from these programs. 

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3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:


Most of those measures are already successfully used. I want some sort of standardized measure of comparison. Apples to apples academic exam. I 100% agree with previous view taken by UC academic faculty, which was disregarded. 

Actually I was hoping for more discussion here how this decision affects homeschoolers (not those who homeschool but get APs diplomas) given that this is a homeschool board, but obviously the conversation went into a different place. 

There are a couple ways this could go for homeschooled applicants. 

It might not apply to homeschoolers, who would still be expected to submit scores and be considered under some form of admission by examination.  This might work for fall 2022, but will present a hurdle for fall of 2021 admission if testing isn't possible. 

They might also go optional for homeschool applicants, weighing other factors more significantly. However, given the lack of class rank, skepticism over parent issued grades, and cancellation of many coops and classes, this might also pose a problem. 

It's worth keeping in mind that many homeschoolers in California are enrolled in home study charter schools.  I don't remember the actual breakdown between charter school and independent homeschoolers, but the charter school options were very popular when we lived in San Diego. I don't think the UC system is that troubled by how it might affect homeschoolers, especially those from out of state. 

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2 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

There are a couple ways this could go for homeschooled applicants. 

It might not apply to homeschoolers, who would still be expected to submit scores and be considered under some form of admission by examination.  This might work for fall 2022, but will present a hurdle for fall of 2021 admission if testing isn't possible. 

They might also go optional for homeschool applicants, weighing other factors more significantly. However, given the lack of class rank, skepticism over parent issued grades, and cancellation of many coops and classes, this might also pose a problem. 

It's worth keeping in mind that many homeschoolers in California are enrolled in home study charter schools.  I don't remember the actual breakdown between charter school and independent homeschoolers, but the charter school options were very popular when we lived in San Diego. I don't think the UC system is that troubled by how it might affect homeschoolers, especially those from out of state. 


I agree with that assessment. And I hate to become one of those ÇA parents, but charter school kids are getting PS diploma and legally are considered PS kids with all the privileges PS diploma presents.

I think this is overall not a positive development for homeschoolers (with parent issues diplomas). And the part that really pisses me off is a lot of organizations that pretend to fight for homeschoolers are really charter representatives, and they shouldn’t be speaking on behalf of us, but they are. 

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3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:


I agree with that assessment. And I hate to become one of those ÇA parents, but charter school kids are getting PS diploma and legally are considered PS kids with all the privileges PS diploma presents.

I think this is overall not a positive development for homeschoolers (with parent issues diplomas). And the part that really pisses me off is a lot of organizations that pretend to fight for homeschoolers are really charter representatives, and they shouldn’t be speaking on behalf of us, but they are. 

One of my kids was accepted to UCSD few years ago, with a great number of exam scores (multiple AP, 6 Subject Tests, and SAT) as well as DE credit.  We now live on the East Coast and I'm not putting any UC schools on his brother's list.  The odds are low and the out of state premium is high.

I understand what you're saying about charter schools. We had a horrible experience with one college that tried to require paperwork for charter enrollment AND independent private school affidavit rather than one or the other for DE registration. 

I'm fine with people using charters. We were on a Science Olympiad team with a bunch of charter school kids for several years in Hawaii.  I'll gladly swap books and talk curriculum and share college info.  But it does frustrate when charters become the norm of what homeschooling is and home homeschooling is viewed with suspicion or questions. 

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@Roadrunner UC is not in my kids’ interest list but below is what I would be concerned/thinking about for my friends’ children, especially those undergraduates currently not doing well with the online class version. 

https://edsource.org/2020/newsoms-proposed-budget-cuts-to-higher-education-force-difficult-choices-ahead/631681

“Newsom and his staff emphasized that in response to the shift to online learning, all of higher education in California — community colleges, UC and CSU — should collaborate on a joint online learning platform that would allow students to more easily find and take classes online.

At Thursday’s press conference, Keely Bosler, state finance director, praised the work “in really perfecting and experimenting with new ways” to do online learning. She added that the governor does not want online learning to replace in-person classroom learning but said it is an important opportunity for working adults and parents of young children to take online classes at nights and weekends.”

https://edsource.org/2020/uc-may-allow-partial-campus-reopenings-in-the-fall/632102

“Some UC campus leaders have raised the possibility of a tuition increase for extra revenues. However, regent Hadi Makarechian, who is an influential voice on the board as chairman of its Finance and Capital Strategies Committee, rejected the idea of tuition increases, citing the sharp rise in unemployment among students and their families. “We are not in the position where everybody is flush with money to pay a tuition increase,” he said. Instead, UC should look for efficiencies and new ways of operating to save money, he said.

How well the switch to nearly universal online classes is working was discussed Wednesday. Early results from surveys show that about 60% of both faculty and students said that learning was reduced in those classes compared to in-person ones. Faculty leaders said that some students are thriving and are actually taking more classes than they usually would have but that other students are struggling, particularly those who live in crowded households without a quiet place to take online classes.

Some regents suggested that UC should stop building any more giant lecture halls classes, not only for health reasons but also to adopt new teaching models, with more classes combining online lectures and smaller in-person discussion sections.

Regent’s vice-chair Cecilia Estolano said UC must study how the current situation might lead to a different campus life in the future, mixing in-person and online learning and interactions. She said UC has “a fantastic opportunity to study how to re-engineer the University of California undergraduate and graduate student experience.””

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3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I am saying that grades are a measure of EFFORT and the ability to maximize whatever is available to you. That maximal level of effort (and the attendant external issues at play) is relative. The kid struggling to get a 4.0 in podunk with limited course offerings and a side job has worked just as freaking hard with just as much personal stress.

Here's the thing--admission to college should not be based on effort.  This is like saying that the kid on the basketball team who has put in the most effort, regardless of how well they play the game, should be offered a spot in the NBA.

In fact, I believe that colleges are looking for signs that kids don't need to put a whole lot of effort into high school academics.  That's what the focus on extracurriculars is about.  The more you are able to do outside of school, the less time you have to focus on your schoolwork.  In other words, extracurriculars are being used as a proxy for intelligence.

Edited by EKS
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13 minutes ago, EKS said:

Here's the thing--admission to college should not be based on effort.  This is like saying that the kid on the basketball team who has put in the most effort, regardless of how well they play the game, should be offered a spot in the NBA.

In fact, I believe that colleges are looking for signs that kids don't need to put a whole lot of effort into high school academics.  That's what the focus on extracurriculars is about.  The more you are able to do outside of school, the less time you have to focus on your schoolwork.  In other words, extracurriculars are being used as a proxy for intelligence.

 

Grades are, in fact, a very tangible measure of achievement, NOT JUST EFFORT. I see you latching onto that as if it's a talisman of failure. EFFORT can be reflected in grades. It's not some totally subjective measure of achievement like how many huffs you puff on the basketball court. There is no 'focus' on extra curricular activities except in the mind of those trying to game the system.. They're NOT required. They do show/demonstrate interest in whatever major a student wishes to have.

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27 minutes ago, EKS said:

Here's the thing--admission to college should not be based on effort.  This is like saying that the kid on the basketball team who has put in the most effort, regardless of how well they play the game, should be offered a spot in the NBA.

In fact, I believe that colleges are looking for signs that kids don't need to put a whole lot of effort into high school academics.  That's what the focus on extracurriculars is about.  The more you are able to do outside of school, the less time you have to focus on your schoolwork.  In other words, extracurriculars are being used as a proxy for intelligence.

I can see the other side of this argument, though. How many kids go to college and flunk out because they don't do the work and spend their time partying? Screening for effort is equivalent to screening for self discipline.

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6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Grades are, in fact, a very tangible measure of achievement, NOT JUST EFFORT. I see you latching onto that as if it's a talisman of failure. EFFORT can be reflected in grades. It's not some totally subjective measure of achievement like how many huffs you puff on the basketball court. There is no 'focus' on extra curricular activities except in the mind of those trying to game the system.. They're NOT required. They do show/demonstrate interest in whatever major a student wishes to have.

I was responding to your statement that "grades are a measure of EFFORT and the ability to maximize whatever is available to you."  So I'm not sure what you think I'm latching onto. 

I absolutely agree that grades can be a measure of achievement.  They can measure a lot of other things too--primarily conscientiousness.  Grades also measure attendance, bringing kleenex to share with the class, how well you cooperate with your group, and how much the teacher likes you--in other words, compliance and convergent thinking.  If you're interested in educating the next generation of thinkers and innovators, compliance and convergent thinking are exactly what you shouldn't be selecting for.  But then, colleges these days are really just glorified vocational schools, and most vocations are all about compliance and convergent thinking.

I can tell you that in graduate school--specifically at CSU Northridge in humanities and ASU in education--GPA is a total joke.  People who couldn't write coherent sentences (much less entire papers), who obviously didn't understand the material, and who had absolutely no original ideas beyond "I agreed with the reading" were getting 4.0s and graduating with honors.  I firmly believe that this sort of thing is rampant K-16+, particularly in the humanities and the social sciences.

This is why another measure is needed beyond GPA.  

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8 minutes ago, EKS said:

I was responding to your statement that "grades are a measure of EFFORT and the ability to maximize whatever is available to you."  So I'm not sure what you think I'm latching onto. 

I absolutely agree that grades can be a measure of achievement.  They can measure a lot of other things too--primarily conscientiousness.  Grades also measure attendance, bringing kleenex to share with the class, how well you cooperate with your group, and how well the teacher likes you--in other words, compliance and convergent thinking.  If you're interested in educating the next generation of thinkers and innovators, compliance and convergent thinking are exactly what you shouldn't be selecting for.  But then, colleges these days are really just glorified vocational schools, and most vocations are all about compliance and convergent thinking.

I can tell you that in graduate school--specifically at CSU Northridge in humanities and ASU in education--GPA is a total joke.  People who couldn't write coherent sentences (much less entire papers), who obviously didn't understand the material, and who had absolutely no original ideas beyond "I agreed with the reading" were getting 4.0s and graduating with honors.  I firmly believe that this sort of thing is rampant K-16+, particularly in the humanities and the social sciences.

This is why another measure is needed beyond GPA.  


Oh come on! Are you seriously suggesting that high school students are earning grades for bringing in Kleenex?  Even in northwest Arkansas circa 1992 (which was way behind the suburban SoCal district I came from) that wasn’t a thing. Compliance with attendance policies has ZERO to do with the ability of students to be creative or outside of the box thinkers. At least support some of this hyperventilation with information/links.  Thus far, no one has been able to refute that high school grades are a better predictor of achievement in college than a single test score. Beyond that, Education majors are known to have some of the lowest admission stats at most universities so I’m not sure why I should use that group to extrapolate ideas about universities nationwide or in CA any more than engineering students are representative.

If test scores are needed to overcome subpar high school performance, there’s nothing in this policy that prevents someone from submitting them.

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