University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Community colleges do have placement tests. E.g. https://www.deanza.edu/assessment/
I did a quick search and UCB has too.

math https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/choosing-courses

asian languages https://ealc.berkeley.edu/programs/undergraduate/placement-exams

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/03/20/california-community-colleges-formally-shift-away-placement-exams

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2019/03/20/california-community-colleges-formally-shift-away-placement-exams

Get your son placed now for summer since placement tests are now online due to Covid19, that’s if he is interested in dual enrollment. If not then it doesn’t matter. 

[chiguirre]

18 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I don’t really understand what you are trying to get to. I mean if we wanted traditional classes, we would be in PS. We homeschool for a reason, for AoPS, for WTM style history/lit, for homemade foreign language..... to each their own. There are plenty of kids who go CC route. That’s the path for some.

You seem to think that CC and classical homeschooling are an either/or choice. For us, it's been a both/and situation. My dd will finish up her Memoria Press high school diploma and graduate with her AA from our local CC. You don't have to choose between them, you just have to carefully schedule, use your summers to knock off requirements and understand what hoops you need to jump through.  The hoop jumping might be a nuisance, but every path in life has some of it. If your easiest path to a UC is the CC, and you think UC is worth it, you can do both WTM and CC. If you think UC isn't worth the bother, then it's best to come up with a list of colleges that you think will work for you so you don't have to put up with the UC stuff. My dd and I did this exercise during her 8th grade year when we had to commit to a high school path. We've been very pleased with our choice, I hope you find something you and your ds like too.

Edited May 24, 2020 by chiguirre

[8filltheheart]

I have never clearly understood CA's system, but it sounds like it is going to get even more confusing.  I would definitely want to meet with some admissions officers in order to understand.  Is there an association of private schools/homeschoolers that works with the state in terms of understanding legislation?  What are they saying?   

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

You seem to think that CC and classical homeschooling are an either/or choice. For us, it's been a both/and situation. My dd is will finish up her Memoria Press high school diploma and graduate with her AA from our local CC. You don't have to choose between them, you just have to carefully schedule, use your summers to knock off requirements and understand what hoops you need to jump through.  The hoop jumping might be a nuisance, but every path in life has some of it. If your easiest path to a UC is the CC, and you think UC is worth it, you can do both WTM and CC. If you think UC isn't worth the bother, then it's best to come up with a list of schools that you think will work for you so you don't have to put up with the UC stuff. My dd and I did this exercise during her 8th grade year when we had to commit to a high school path. We've been very pleased with our choice, I hope you find something you and your ds like too.

I think what roadrunner is saying is that she has a right to be angry bc she doesn't want to conform to that sort of path.  I completely understand b/c I would hate to have to enroll my kids in any type of classes, DE or otherwise.  We don't homeschool to conform to any traditional classroom environment.  I would be beyond upset if suddenly the route to college was radically shifted that blocked my kids, especially with the legislation posted on this thread. 

[chiguirre]

1 minute ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think what roadrunner is saying is that she has a right to be angry bc she doesn't want to conform to that sort of path.  I completely understand b/c I would hate to have to enroll my kids in any type of classes, DE or otherwise.  We don't homeschool to conform to any traditional classroom environment.  I would be beyond upset if suddenly the route to college was radically shifted that blocked my kids, especially with the legislation posted on this thread. 

You're right. Since we live in TX, we've known all along that the top 10% rule puts a massive hurdle in the path of homeschoolers who want to go to our flagships. That's what dd and I were pondering when she was in 8th grade. We knew that she would have to do a lot of CC courses and have a stellar SAT score to be competitive for the small slice of seats available to non-auto admits. We mapped out a plan so that she would finish her AA during high school so she could opt to be a transfer student if the freshman admission didn't work out. We thought about other possible colleges she could attend. She carefully weighed if she wanted to roll the dice or just go to the local high school and compete for an auto admit spot. It's worked out for dd and she's in a good place to be admitted to UT Austin. Of course, now we've got the whole Covid thing and it looks like she will have to adjust her plans again because she's not willing to switch back and forth from dorms to zooming from her bedroom. As much as I wish things were smooth sailing, our experience has been that you cover as many contingencies as possible and hope for the best. Having a Plan A, B, C and maybe D is the only way to keep your sanity.

[Roadrunner]

17 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

You seem to think that CC and classical homeschooling are an either/or choice. For us, it's been a both/and situation. My dd will finish up her Memoria Press high school diploma and graduate with her AA from our local CC. You don't have to choose between them, you just have to carefully schedule, use your summers to knock off requirements and understand what hoops you need to jump through.  The hoop jumping might be a nuisance, but every path in life has some of it. If your easiest path to a UC is the CC, and you think UC is worth it, you can do both WTM and CC. If you think UC isn't worth the bother, then it's best to come up with a list of colleges that you think will work for you so you don't have to put up with the UC stuff. My dd and I did this exercise during her 8th grade year when we had to commit to a high school path. We've been very pleased with our choice, I hope you find something you and your ds like too.

I  think  you are reading what is not there. I think you don’t understand ÇA system where in order to get thought their A through G, you could either DE, AP, or show SAT subject test score for a given subject. You are implying that DE is A way to go. I am telling you it is for some things for us, but not for others. But before we had SAT “for others.” Now we don’t. It’s that simple. I don’t know how you are coming up with assumptions . I mean my kid could take AP English, or CC English or just have a good enough score in SAT. Now the last one is no longer an option. It’s that simple. 

[Roadrunner]

15 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think what roadrunner is saying is that she has a right to be angry bc she doesn't want to conform to that sort of path.  I completely understand b/c I would hate to have to enroll my kids in any type of classes, DE or otherwise.  We don't homeschool to conform to any traditional classroom environment.  I would be beyond upset if suddenly the route to college was radically shifted that blocked my kids, especially with the legislation posted on this thread. 

thank you! That’s all I am saying. Just not very eloquently.

[chiguirre]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

I  think  you are reading what is not there. I think you don’t understand ÇA system where in order to get thought their A through G, you could either DE, AP, or show SAT subject test score for a given subject. You are implying that DE is A way to go. I am telling you it is for some things for us, but not for others. But before we had SAT “for others.” Now we don’t. It’s that simple. I don’t know how you are coming up with assumptions . I mean my kid could take AP English, or CC English or just have a good enough score in SAT. Now the last one is no longer an option. It’s that simple. 

Exactly. So now you have to change your plans or scratch the UCs off your list. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this, but you do have to deal with it one way or the other. We faced a very similar situation as homeschoolers in TX. We chose to deal with it by using the CC. 

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Exactly. So now you have to change your plans or scratch the UCs off your list. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this, but you do have to deal with it one way or the other. We faced a very similar situation as homeschoolers in TX. We chose to deal with it by using the CC. 

Yes! Exactly. We will now have to make decisions. I was hoping there were others in my shoes on this board, but I am surprised nobody is affected by this. We must be weird ones. 

[Arcadia]

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

. But before we had SAT “for others.” Now we don’t. It’s that simple. 

They haven’t remove that option for homeschoolers

“If your home schooling curriculum is not provided by a U.S. regionally accredited school (or approved by the State Board of Education) and you will not receive an official transcript and high school diploma from a U.S. regionally accredited school: 

• You can be eligible by meeting requirements for admission by exam. 
• If you do not meet the requirements for admission by exam, you may still be considered for admission by exception.”

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

They haven’t remove that option for homeschoolers

“If your home schooling curriculum is not provided by a U.S. regionally accredited school (or approved by the State Board of Education) and you will not receive an official transcript and high school diploma from a U.S. regionally accredited school: 

• You can be eligible by meeting requirements for admission by exam. 
• If you do not meet the requirements for admission by exam, you may still be considered for admission by exception.”

I hope that stays on the website and it’s not just an old wording. At this point I don’t trust that more changes won’t be coming our way.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Roadrunner

[Arcadia]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I hope that stays and it’s not just an old wording.

Homeschoolers didn’t sue UC for standardized tests discrimination.

[chiguirre]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes! Exactly. We will now have to make decisions. I was hoping there were others in my shoes on this board, but I am surprised nobody is affected by this. We must be weird ones. 

I think many people in CA use their CCs, but they might live in areas where that's easier. 

For us, using the CC is very easy. They have an honors college, free tuition for DE and dd can drive herself because it's only 20 minutes away on easy to drive streets. We're very fortunate. 

Another option in TX (and maybe for you) is that some 4 year schools offer extension classes online. We haven't needed them because our CC is good, but they do exist.

Here's a link to UT Extension. They might be an option for you.

https://extension.utexas.edu/self-paced-courses

[Roadrunner]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Homeschoolers didn’t sue UC for standardized tests discrimination.

Do you think they got scared of the lawsuit? Is that all about to avoid lawsuit? 

[Roadrunner]

9 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I think many people in CA use their CCs, but they might live in areas where that's easier. 

For us, using the CC is very easy. They have an honors college, free tuition for DE and dd can drive herself because it's only 20 minutes away on easy to drive streets. We're very fortunate. 

Another option in TX (and maybe for you) is that some 4 year schools offer extension classes online. We haven't needed them because our CC is good, but they do exist.

Here's a link to UT Extension. They might be an option for you.

https://extension.utexas.edu/self-paced-courses

Thank you. CA schools also have a ton of extension courses for those who like online learning.
 

 

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Do you think they got scared of the lawsuit? Is that all about to avoid lawsuit? 

I think they don’t want bad press. With other colleges going test optional, they don’t want to look less than. 
 

First page under National Universities https://www.fairtest.org/sites/default/files/Optional-Schools-in-U.S.News-Top-Tiers.pdf

[Roadrunner]

We have been looking at some UK schools. They all ask for specific test scores. I wonder if there is a similar backlash over testing there as well. Cultural differences are interesting. 

[chiguirre]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We have been looking at some UK schools. They all ask for specific test scores. I wonder if there is a similar backlash over testing there as well. Cultural differences are interesting. 

UK schools usually want US students to present AP scores in lieu of the A level tests. Some accept a US AA degree as proof of academic achievement.

[Roadrunner]

10 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

UK schools usually want US students to present AP scores in lieu of the A level tests. Some accept a US AA degree as proof of academic achievement.

Yes they do. They indicate how many and what scores and some which subjects. It’s all so straightforward.

[chiguirre]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes they do. They indicate how many and what scores and some which subjects. It’s all so straightforward.

Will your local CC accept the APs too? Could you use that as a way to get an AS as a backup if freshman admission doesn't work?

[Arcadia]

13 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We have been looking at some UK schools. They all ask for specific test scores. I wonder if there is a similar backlash over testing there as well. Cultural differences are interesting. 

UK only allows five choices through their UCAS application system.  https://www.ucas.com/undergraduate/applying-university/ucas-undergraduate-international-and-eu-students
Colleges in Canada and Europe ask for AP scores or IB scores.

[Roadrunner]

22 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Will your local CC accept the APs too? Could you use that as a way to get an AS as a backup if freshman admission doesn't work?

yes, but honestly I can’t imagine my kid wanting to spend an extra year. It’s more likely he graduates early. We might just not bother with state schools at all. 

[Arcadia]

For Europe, your son could do a masters in 4 years. The cost for some colleges is comparable to paying full for UCs. It might wind up being more economical. 

[Arcadia]

Saw this 8:26 minutes video on NBC Bay Area 

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/lx/the-racist-history-of-the-sat/2282758/

"April 30, 2020 3:35 pm

The Racist History of the SAT

A number of colleges and universities are making the SATs optional for admissions next year after the coronavirus pandemic forced the cancellation of the standardized tests this spring. This comes after years of criticism that the SAT puts low-income and minority students at a disadvantage."

[SanDiegoMom]

7 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

yes, but honestly I can’t imagine my kid wanting to spend an extra year. It’s more likely he graduates early. We might just not bother with state schools at all. 

I bet they will keep the entrance by exam or at the very least isn't there admission by exception?  I can't see them closing all routes for independent homeschoolers -- they probably just didn't include that information in the news because homeschoolers in CA (in particular independent ones not using charters) are the minority of UC applicants. 

Right now the UCLA engineering program still asks for SAT 2 Math and one other in a science.  I wonder if that will change as well? 

[chiguirre]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

yes, but honestly I can’t imagine my kid wanting to spend an extra year. It’s more likely he graduates early. We might just not bother with state schools at all. 

Here are some questions that might help you all come up with a plan that works for your son. These are thing that dd and I thought through when we picked our path, except for the international option:

If you want to keep the UCs on the table: Could your son manage to finish the AS during high school? How many APs would he need? Could he CLEP (another college level test, all multiple choice, computerized and you can take it at any time by appointment at the CC testing center)? Could you use extension classes from 4 year schools to achieve a better level of academics?

More generally: Will he have enough extracurriculars and leadership roles to be a good holistic candidate for US colleges if he graduates early? Is he okay leaving home early? Is it even legal for him to do this if he studies abroad? For the US, is he likely to be a NMF? (This opens up a lot of automatic scholarship opportunities.) What other colleges would work for him besides your state flagships? Are these affordable as an OOS student? What private colleges are available? Are they affordable? (In TX, many of the good but not elite private colleges (places like Baylor) offer excellent merit aid that makes them price competitive with our public colleges.) 

How will Covid possibly affect your plans if it becomes endemic and outbreaks keep popping up? How will the economic situation affect your plans if this turns into a nasty recession? This doesn't have a clear answer but you need to keep it in mind and have some backup plans just in case. This curveball hit us at the end of Junior year which is extremely fortunate for us because we have time to change things up. If dd had been a senior, we'd be much more freaked out with a lot less flexibility to change her plans.

We used Excel spreadsheets to line up choices side by side to compare each option. That made seeing the best option for us a little easier.

[8filltheheart]

10 hours ago, Arcadia said:

They haven’t remove that option for homeschoolers

“If your home schooling curriculum is not provided by a U.S. regionally accredited school (or approved by the State Board of Education) and you will not receive an official transcript and high school diploma from a U.S. regionally accredited school: 

• You can be eligible by meeting requirements for admission by exam. 
• If you do not meet the requirements for admission by exam, you may still be considered for admission by exception.”

 

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I bet they will keep the entrance by exam or at the very least isn't there admission by exception?  I can't see them closing all routes for independent homeschoolers -- they probably just didn't include that information in the news because homeschoolers in CA (in particular independent ones not using charters) are the minority of UC applicants. 

Right now the UCLA engineering program still asks for SAT 2 Math and one other in a science.  I wonder if that will change as well? 

@Roadrunner I am not big on focusing on hypotheticals.  I would start seeking answers.  I would seek confirmation that the eligibility by exam exception still exists and will remain in place.  I do think that it is unlikely that they will remove it, but I'd want to hear it myself one way or the other.

I also think that it is hard to foresee what the college landscape is going to look like in 2-3 yrs.  I suspect scholarships and meeting-need grants are going to look radically different depending on how things go with the economy and colleges' abilities to survive their current financial strains. (I posted on another thread what I had read about UAH's current cut backs which are pretty significant.)  But, it isn't just going to be the colleges themselves, it will be the applicant pool.  I'm not sure how long it is going to take for the economy to realize that money really doesn't just come out of thin air, but at some pt in time, the reality of job losses and debt is going to hit. If the applicant pool drops in size, that in and of itself will change how admissions works.

I guess that is a rather sideways way of saying that getting facts and formulating general plans are good, but I wouldn't expend a lot of energy in frustration or worry.   Shifting gears is possible.  There isn't just a single path; windows open when doors close and those paths can be good, too.  (We have moved so much that our kids never get wedded to the idea of any path!)  FWIW, if physics/astronomy are goals, I would look into Astronomy Camp, SSP,  ISSYP (I would look into their virtual program now https://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/outreach/students/virtual-issyp ) and adding in astronomy courses on top of core sciences.  If he has a solid academic background with demonstrated strong interest in physics, he will find a place to land.   But, the caveat to all of that is that there is NO WAY I would radically alter my homeschool to fit any bureaucracy.  That is just not something we would do. We would find a way to make what we do work by finding a different path vs conforming to A path.

[Roadrunner]

37 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Here are some questions that might help you all come up with a plan that works for your son. These are thing that dd and I thought through when we picked our path, except for the international option:

If you want to keep the UCs on the table: Could your son manage to finish the AS during high school? How many APs would he need? Could he CLEP (another college level test, all multiple choice, computerized and you can take it at any time by appointment at the CC testing center)? Could you use extension classes from 4 year schools to achieve a better level of academics?

More generally: Will he have enough extracurriculars and leadership roles to be a good holistic candidate for US colleges if he graduates early? Is he okay leaving home early? Is it even legal for him to do this if he studies abroad? For the US, is he likely to be a NMF? (This opens up a lot of automatic scholarship opportunities.) What other colleges would work for him besides your state flagships? Are these affordable as an OOS student? What private colleges are available? Are they affordable? (In TX, many of the good but not elite private colleges (places like Baylor) offer excellent merit aid that makes them price competitive with our public colleges.) 

How will Covid possibly affect your plans if it becomes endemic and outbreaks keep popping up? How will the economic situation affect your plans if this turns into a nasty recession? This doesn't have a clear answer but you need to keep it in mind and have some backup plans just in case. This curveball hit us at the end of Junior year which is extremely fortunate for us because we have time to change things up. If dd had been a senior, we'd be much more freaked out with a lot less flexibility to change her plans.

We used Excel spreadsheets to line up choices side by side to compare each option. That made seeing the best option for us a little easier.

we are pretty set on our homeschool path 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

11 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

@Roadrunner I am not big on focusing on hypotheticals.  I would start seeking answers.  I would seek confirmation that the eligibility by exam exception still exists and will remain in place.  I do think that it is unlikely that they will remove it, but I'd want to hear it myself one way or the other.

I also think that it is hard to foresee what the college landscape is going to look like in 2-3 yrs.  I suspect scholarships and meeting-need grants are going to look radically different depending on how things go with the economy and colleges' abilities to survive their current financial strains. (I posted on another thread what I had read about UAH's current cut backs which are pretty significant.)  But, it isn't just going to be the colleges themselves, it will be the applicant pool.  I'm not sure how long it is going to take for the economy to realize that money really doesn't just come out of thin air, but at some pt in time, the reality of job losses and debt is going to hit. If the applicant pool drops in size, that in and of itself will change how admissions works.

I guess that is a rather sideways way of saying that getting facts and formulating general plans are good, but I wouldn't expend a lot of energy in frustration or worry.   Shifting gears is possible.  There isn't just a single path; windows open when doors close and those paths can be good, too.  (We have moved so much that our kids never get wedded to the idea of any path!)  FWIW, if physics/astronomy are goals, I would look into Astronomy Camp, SSP,  ISSYP (I would look into their virtual program now https://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/outreach/students/virtual-issyp ) and adding in astronomy courses on top of core sciences.  If he has a solid academic background with demonstrated strong interest in physics, he will find a place to land.   But, the caveat to all of that is that there is NO WAY I would radically alter my homeschool to fit any bureaucracy.  That is just not something we would do. We would find a way to make what we do work by finding a different path vs conforming to A path.

Quantum physics apparently is a goal 🙂 at least for now. I think it’s all math.
I heard that camp is incredibly competitive. 

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Quantum physics apparently is a goal 🙂 at least for now. I think it’s all math.
I heard that camp is incredibly competitive. 

LOL.  Ds hates quantum.  😉  THe virtual program is open to anyone.  Astronomy Camp is not competitive, but you have to register early.  It is still an awesome experience.   https://www.astronomycamp.org/pages/teencamp.html  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

11 hours ago, chiguirre said:

I think many people in CA use their CCs, but they might live in areas where that's easier. 

For us, using the CC is very easy. They have an honors college, free tuition for DE and dd can drive herself because it's only 20 minutes away on easy to drive streets. We're very fortunate. 

Another option in TX (and maybe for you) is that some 4 year schools offer extension classes online. We haven't needed them because our CC is good, but they do exist.

Here's a link to UT Extension. They might be an option for you.

https://extension.utexas.edu/self-paced-courses

Something to consider about CC in CA is that DE isn't always available. Where we lived in San Diego county there were multiple CC districts (with their own elected boards).  At the time, California colleges were very "impacted" meaning that courses were in high demand and students might struggle to register for needed courses. 

As a result some of the area CCs did not allow high school students to enroll unless they were part of a formal middle college program. They were trying to reserve seats for the enrolled college students. 

We were lucky that the school nearest us did allow high school early enrollment for dual credit. It can't be assumed that this is an option for high school. 

All of these decisions have to be made in a local context. Course access,  quality, transportation, transferability and cost can vary widely. 

So for homeschool families in CA this SAT announcement can feel like a big door slam, "we don't want you kind" shift in policy. Keep in mind also that there have been statements from judges and department of education officials over the years in CA that questioned independent homeschool not only as not educationally effective but as morally and socially questionable. Being able to point to qualifying test scores undermined some of those critiques. If UC goes test-blind it could have big consequences for CA homeschoolers. 

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

So for homeschool families in CA this SAT announcement can feel like a big door slam, "we don't want you kind" shift in policy. Keep in mind also that there have been statements from judges and department of education officials over the years in CA that questioned independent homeschool not only as not educationally effective but as morally and socially questionable. Being able to point to qualifying test scores undermined some of those critiques. If UC goes test-blind it could have big consequences for CA homeschoolers. 

Oddly enough, although TX pays a lot of lip service to freedom to homeschool, the reality is that it's hard for homeschoolers to get into the state flagships without jumping through hoops. In fact, it seems that it was considerably harder than CA up until this decision and now it's probably roughly equivalent. I'm astonished that the reactions to the same situation are so different. In TX, no one's pitched a fit, we just find the work arounds. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by chiguirre

[daijobu]

13 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I  think  you are reading what is not there. I think you don’t understand ÇA system where in order to get thought their A through G, you could either DE, AP, or show SAT subject test score for a given subject. You are implying that DE is A way to go. I am telling you it is for some things for us, but not for others. But before we had SAT “for others.” Now we don’t. It’s that simple. I don’t know how you are coming up with assumptions . I mean my kid could take AP English, or CC English or just have a good enough score in SAT. Now the last one is no longer an option. It’s that simple. 

 

This is difficult to write since I can't cite official UC policy anywhere, but if you are keen to have your student enroll at UC, I wouldn't worry too much about satisfying every a-g.  My dd was admitted to UC Berkeley and UCLA without hitting all the a-g's (thought we did get most of them).  I've seen the transcript of another homeschooled student who was admitted to Berkeley who had a pretty sketchy way of satisfying English (basically he read a blog post every other week).  I also hear anecdotally about students who are admitted to UCs who don't hit all the a-g's.  

We filed PSA, and when my dd completed her UC application, there was no way to indicate whether a course was a-g.  It's like it doesn't really apply to PSA homeschoolers, though you'd never know from the UC website.  I guess my point is to continue a broad high school education, and if you miss a subject area or two (or 3 or 4), apply anyway.   Also check out the FB group for California homeschoolers applying to college.  

I wish they'd just get rid of that a-g stuff since it's pretty meaningless anyway.  

[Arcadia]

37 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

I wish they'd just get rid of that a-g stuff since it's pretty meaningless anyway.  

The a-g stuff impacts the current 10th and 11th graders GPA for UC application since some school districts are giving credit/no credit instead of letter grades. 

College admission policies are subject to change. Honestly the one thing constant would likely be that cost of attendance would be same or higher given budget cuts to education. 

[Frances]

21 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

Colleges having their own entrance exams was quite common among elite universities back before WWII.  Somewhere I have a study book from around 1920 that compiled history questions from about a dozen colleges.  I also have copies of several decades worth of Naval Academy entrance exam questions. 

These exams tended to be heavy on essays and math or physics problems. Like a collection of free response AP questions. 

This is from 1914. https://books.google.com/books?id=Fc4cAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=examination+questions+for+entrance+to+naval+academy&source=bl&ots=esXFzkj6EY&sig=ACfU3U0-G6mvsNwg8a-fYjv0aSp4XltQXQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFubauk8vpAhWaoHIEHZKzC6QQ6AEwD3oECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=examination questions for entrance to naval academy&f=true

Aren’t these aren’t going to suffer from the same problems many complain about now, especially that the wealthy can afford extensive prep? Are students from high schools that don’t prepare them well for college going to do better on these exams than they would on the SAT? They sound more like exams that would be ideal for students from rigorous prep schools.

[Frances]

19 hours ago, chiguirre said:

I don't understand what you mean. If a class is college level and can be transferred, it's not remedial. The students that are in it have either passed the accuplacer or passed the prerequisite remedial class. They've demonstrated that they mastered high school level content and can take a college level class for credit. That's the whole point of CCs using the accuplacer and offering remedial classes. They take students that weren't capable of college level work and teach them to that level.

I’m not the one who wrote the original post, but based on my husband’s experience taking a few CC classes locally to prepare for a grad program, just because something requires placement and awards college credit does not mean it is actually taught at a college level. They teach to the students they have and in general, don’t make it rigorous and then fail most students. He’s taught at every level from CC to Ivy League and in between, and he definitely got the most push back from both admin and students for his class being too hard when teaching at the CC. And the CC classes he took were a joke. Hopefully it is not like this everywhere, but completion metrics are pretty important at most colleges.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

12 minutes ago, Frances said:

Aren’t these aren’t going to suffer from the same problems many complain about now, especially that the wealthy can afford extensive prep? Are students from high schools that don’t prepare them well for college going to do better on these exams than they would on the SAT? They sound more like exams that would be ideal for students from rigorous prep schools.

I don't expect colleges will go back to this style of exam. It does favor students who attend strong schools or whose families can afford tutors.  I did think it was interesting to see them contemplating going back to a college controlled exam.

Ironically at one point, the SAT was touted as opening doors for smart students from less capable schools. 

[Frances]

17 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

We have been looking at some UK schools. They all ask for specific test scores. I wonder if there is a similar backlash over testing there as well. Cultural differences are interesting. 

You might also look at Germany. You don’t need to speak the language for many majors, especially STEM. They are taught in English so as to attract students from all over the European Union. My son did summer research there on a scholarship and was encouraged by his prof to come back for a Master’s, despite not speaking German. He chose not to as he wasn’t interested, but tuition is free and fees are low and cover all public transportation. You are primarily paying for living expenses.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

I don't expect colleges will go back to this style of exam. It does favor students who attend strong schools or whose families can afford tutors.  I did think it was interesting to see them contemplating going back to a college controlled exam.

Ironically at one point, the SAT was touted as opening doors for smart students from less capable schools. 

I actually had several profs in both undergrad and grad school who said the PSAT and NMS program did this for them. All were first in their family to go to college and performing well on the PSAT is what opened doors for them.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

5 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Oddly enough, although TX pays a lot of lip service to freedom to homeschool, the reality is that it's hard for homeschoolers to get into the state flagships without jumping through hoops. In fact, it seems that it was considerably harder than CA up until this decision and now it's probably roughly equivalent. I'm astonished that the reactions to the same situation are so different. In TX, no one's pitched a fit, we just find the work arounds. 

I don't see fit pitching from CA homeschoolers in the thread. I do see some asking how others think the changes to the test policies will affect CA work arounds that have been in place for a number of years.

People like to be able to plan and to gauge admissions chances. Lots of current events all around the US are throwing the process into confusion. 

Have a great weekend. 

[Corraleno]

17 minutes ago, Frances said:

I actually had several profs in both undergrad and grad school who said the PSAT and NMS program did this for them. All were first in their family to go to college and performing well on the PSAT is what opened doors for them.

That is exactly my story as well. I hated HS and was bored out of my mind, which was reflected in a mediocre GPA. My family were dirt poor and no one had ever gone to college, so I had no idea how that process even worked. Took the PSAT cold, not even knowing what it was, and ended up with a full ride National Merit Scholarship. Graduated with honors, and was offered full funding from multiple top grad programs. There is no doubt in my mind that the PSAT, and the opportunities that came from that, changed the course of my life. 

I really worry that eliminating test scores may just increase grade-grubbing and reward the students who are the most willing to sacrifice everything for the highest GPA and class rank, meaning taking the maximum number of AP classes, avoiding electives that don't come with a weighting bonus, skipping ECs that may take too much time away from the homework required for multiple APs, etc. 

I also know several kids who had straight As in really crap high schools who absolutely could not handle college level work, even at not-terribly-selective schools, and I would hate to think that there are brilliant but easily bored kids out there, or kids who aren't willing to sacrifice 4 years of their lives on the altar of a perfect GPA, who will get passed over in favor of the most compliant hoop-jumpers.

[Roadrunner]

10 hours ago, chiguirre said:

. In TX, no one's pitched a fit, we just find the work arounds. 

This board has always been a place for discussion. I am not pitching a fit, but attempting to have a discussion on implications for non traditional homeschoolers. 
honestly, no homeschoooler we know IRL cares in CA because most use charter schools and online classes from Silicon Valley High School. Or they use CC. People also think getting rid of SAT makes it easier for their kids to go to UC. We don’t really know anybody who homeschools WTM style. 

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

This board has always been a place for discussion. I am not pitching a fit, but attempting to have a discussion on implications for non traditional homeschoolers. 
honestly, no homeschoooler we know IRL cares in CA because most use charter schools and online classes from Silicon Valley High School. Or they use CC. People also think getting rid of SAT makes it easier for their kids to go to UC. We don’t really know anybody who homeschools WTM style. 

If you value WTM style independent homeschooling more than UC for undergrad, that's a totally valid choice to make. It would be a good idea to make a list of schools that would work for your student from OOS publics and privates so you have a general idea of safeties and reaches. They'll cost more than a UC unless your student is competitive for their merit scholarships. It's useful to check out what's available in terms of merit aid and what each requires although it may change due to Covid (for example, the University of Alabama Huntsville cuts might impact their awesome scholarship programs for high stat kids).

I don't know anyone IRL who homeschools WTM style either. Almost every homeschooler I know who can pass the Accuplacer uses our CC for DE because of the free tuition and boost it gives them to get into our state flagships. Like I said in an earlier post, we personally have managed to combine Memoria Press' program with a CC AA. It shares many features with WTM. We chose them because of their Latin program, logic and progymnasmata classes. If you do find that a UC is your top choice for college, this path may work if the exceptional admission or admission by exam options are unavailable.

[Roadrunner]

11 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

If you value WTM style independent homeschooling more than UC for undergrad, that's a totally valid choice to make. It would be a good idea to make a list of schools that would work for your student from OOS publics and privates so you have a general idea of safeties and reaches. They'll cost more than a UC unless your student is competitive for their merit scholarships. It's useful to check out what's available in terms of merit aid and what each requires although it may change due to Covid (for example, the University of Alabama Huntsville cuts might impact their awesome scholarship programs for high stat kids).

I don't know anyone IRL who homeschools WTM style either. Almost every homeschooler I know who can pass the Accuplacer uses our CC for DE because of the free tuition and boost it gives them to get into our state flagships. Like I said in an earlier post, we personally have managed to combine Memoria Press' program with a CC AA. It shares many features with WTM. We chose them because of their Latin program, logic and progymnasmata classes. If you do find that a UC is your top choice for college, this path may work if the exceptional admission or admission by exam options are unavailable.

again, this isn’t about me. It’s a general discussion. 

[chiguirre]

Ahh, in that case, homeschoolers in CA who don't use charters and/or CCs are hosed. Welcome to the club! There are ways around the obstacles but they involve assimilating to the Borg. 

[madteaparty]

22 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Here are some questions that might help you all come up with a plan that works for your son. These are thing that dd and I thought through when we picked our path, except for the international option:

If you want to keep the UCs on the table: Could your son manage to finish the AS during high school? How many APs would he need? Could he CLEP (another college level test, all multiple choice, computerized and you can take it at any time by appointment at the CC testing center)? Could you use extension classes from 4 year schools to achieve a better level of academics?

More generally: Will he have enough extracurriculars and leadership roles to be a good holistic candidate for US colleges if he graduates early? Is he okay leaving home early? Is it even legal for him to do this if he studies abroad? For the US, is he likely to be a NMF? (This opens up a lot of automatic scholarship opportunities.) What other colleges would work for him besides your state flagships? Are these affordable as an OOS student? What private colleges are available? Are they affordable? (In TX, many of the good but not elite private colleges (places like Baylor) offer excellent merit aid that makes them price competitive with our public colleges.) 

How will Covid possibly affect your plans if it becomes endemic and outbreaks keep popping up? How will the economic situation affect your plans if this turns into a nasty recession? This doesn't have a clear answer but you need to keep it in mind and have some backup plans just in case. This curveball hit us at the end of Junior year which is extremely fortunate for us because we have time to change things up. If dd had been a senior, we'd be much more freaked out with a lot less flexibility to change her plans.

We used Excel spreadsheets to line up choices side by side to compare each option. That made seeing the best option for us a little easier.

I think she knows all this. I also think this sort of homeschooling, collecting credits and CLEPing is fundamentally distasteful to what some want to do in their homeschool. I know nothing about CA or Tx but never was my idea of homeschooling  a frisson at the great flexibility of driving my kid to community college. Maybe because I’m in NY and our Cc are not great. Maybe because I thought homeschooling was about doing your own thing. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by madteaparty

[chiguirre]

4 hours ago, madteaparty said:

I think she knows all this. I also think this sort of homeschooling, collecting credits and CLEPing is fundamentally distasteful to what some want to do in their homeschool. I know nothing about CA or Tx but never was my idea of homeschooling  a frisson at the great flexibility of driving my kid to community college. Maybe because I’m in NY and our Cc are not great. Maybe because I thought homeschooling was about doing your own thing. 

My objective in homeschooling was to provide my kids with the best possible education without limiting their college options. Our state flagships require quite a bit of hoop jumping, but they're also excellent schools that are very highly ranked in a lot of disciplines. They're by far the best economic option for us because of their bargain in-state tuition. If we had decided to do our own thing, we would have shut this door. We'd either have to pay 3 times as much for an elite college or settle for a less prestigious state school. That's not something we're willing to do, so off to Lone Star College we drive. We think UT Austin is worth it. To be honest, if I lived in NY, I don't think my calculus would be the same for a SUNY. If I lived in CA, I think I'd hoop jump for Berkeley or UCLA at in-state tuition rates. But to each their own.

ETA: I think I'm going to explicitly state the financial difference for us so that future readers understand the magnitude of impact of deciding to hoop jump or do your own thing. McCombs at UT Austin is ranked #5 overall in USNWR Undergrad Business. It would cost us about $110,000 as Texans. My alma mater, Wharton at the University of Pennsylvania is ranked #1 but it would cost us about $330,000. That is a jaw dropping difference!

Edited May 25, 2020 by chiguirre

[Roadrunner]

28 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

 If I lived in CA, I think I'd hoop jump for Berkeley or UCLA at in-state tuition rates. But to each their own.

you can hoop jump all you want for those two schools and still not get into them (they are lotteries now). We know PS kids with perfect ACT and perfect AP scores and generally “paper” perfect who were denied. UC is a big system and those two schools aren’t what ÇA families talk about. But yes, to each their own.

[chiguirre]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

you can hoop jump all you want for those two schools and still not get into them (they are lotteries now). We know PS kids with perfect ACT and perfect AP scores and generally “paper” perfect who were denied. UC is a big system and those two schools aren’t what ÇA families talk about. But yes, to each their own.

That sucks! We're lucky that we can pretty much guarantee dd at least a transfer spot at UT Austin McCombs with a high enough GPA at our CC (about 3.8/4). Without that assurance, the decision is a lot harder.

ETA: For future TX readers: The transfer GPA depends on your major. Some are quite a bit lower.

Edited May 25, 2020 by chiguirre