How do we cope with family's decisions to stop caring about covid

[saraha]

ETA: I need help with helping my dh cope with the decisions his parents are making in terms of risk.

We attended a family event this weekend that was eye opening. We thought that most of dh's extended family were on the same page as far as working together to keep his parents healthy, but we are not.

I will start out by saying we are in a rural county that has only had 23 confirmed cases located next to a county that has only had 8 cases. At this event, we were supposed to be socially distancing outside while visiting for mil's birthday. My family were social distancing champs. The other attendees, not so much. Everyone did a good job of not being in my inlaws' faces, at least that I could tell while we were there, but family groups that included 3 generations were not socially distancing from each other. That's fine if they want to do that, as long as were are all protecting inlaws. As the day wore on, my nieces and nephews (who are all adults) were in and out of the house, using the bathroom, nursing a baby etc. I overheard one nephew bragging on how he gets around the mask mandate while he is at work. Another nephew was talking about how they had a case at work, but he doesn't like the mask mandate and doesn't follow it, actually being thrown out of a store once. All of this to say that lots of not caring about themselves going on. Ok, fine. But later I find out fil went and got a haircut and neither he nor the barber wore a mask on principle. Nephew who is not wearing a mask had fil cut his hair in their kitchen yesterday.  All of this to say that they are no longer taking the virus seriously.

My dh is really struggling with this. We are taking it seriously. We understand that it is hard to find a new normal and have been trying to support inlaws as much as possible. They did really good in the beginning but are tired of it now and are just not going to do it anymore.  How do I help my dh with this? He is really upset with everyone, but knows they are all adults and can make their own decisions. So how do you mentally cope with the idea that they are choosing to take these risks? Dh has had to make the shift from protecting his parents to protecting his family from his parents and it is just tearing him up to think that they are making these choices, and we are the weirdos and responsible for messing up their returning to normal because we refuse to.

He feels isolated and judged and sad really. I really need suggestions to help him

thanks

Edited May 19, 2020 by saraha

[73349]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

Has he asked his parents, gently and in private, how comfortable they are with the risk of catching Covid19 from other family members, and whether their affairs are in order? Whether they are really okay with close interaction or didn't want to spoil the event?

[saraha]

I hope he will talk with them about it. I don't see it happening this week, I think he is still emotionally reacting from the hurtful comments about people still choosing to be wary and the blindsided feeling he had. I really want to help him as he is just not himself.

[SKL]

I assume it will be a while before there is another family get-together, so I would just let it go at this point.  If another get-together with at-risk people comes up in the near future, then I'd ask his parents privately how they feel (in advance) and help them communicate that to the other in-laws if necessary.

Some advance planning may be needed, such as what to do about needing to use the bathroom.  I mean that is a legitimate need.  Maybe designate one bathroom that the old folks don't use and clean it well after everyone leaves.  Similar for anything else that is bound to happen at a family gathering.

I would not worry about the not-at-risk in-laws being less than 6' apart at the occasional gathering.  I would ignore what they do or don't do about masks at work etc.  It's just like relatives who smoke or overeat.  They know the recommendations and as adults they decide not to follow them.  There's nothing for extended family or friends to say.

[saraha]

We have definitely been trying to support them in finding new ways to be together. We have been going over and visiting outside, I take them meals twice a week and make sure to stay and talk, grab whatever groceries etc they need midweek (sil shops for them weekly). Honestly, and my kids have mentioned it too, we are having more quality time with them under this new normal. I don't care what the rest of them do, I just need to find a way to help dh cope with his parents choosing to take the risks. I need to find a way to help dh's mental health right now

[Farrar]

Honestly, if that was my extended family? I'd see them less. I'm not going to be around people who are taking lots of unnecessary risks. I have been outside with a few people recently, but if you're going to be seeing the barber and not wearing a mask "on principle"!?! Um, my family doesn't need that risk of being around you long term, even outside.

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Honestly, if that was my extended family? I'd see them less. I'm not going to be around people who are taking lots of unnecessary risks. I have been outside with a few people recently, but if you're going to be seeing the barber and not wearing a mask "on principle"!?! Um, my family doesn't need that risk of being around you long term, even outside.

I get this, but how do I help him cope with this?

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

I get this, but how do I help him cope with this?

Remind him of what you said a couple of posts ago?  That you are having more quality time with them right now? 

[Farrar]

Just now, saraha said:

I get this, but how do I help him cope with this?

Personally, I wouldn't announce it. They're making their decisions. I'd just bow out of nearly everything quietly.

In terms of coping... We're literally watching the entire nation do this. My Facebook feed is full of people who are suddenly hanging out in close quarters with friends. I think the only thing you can do is to focus on you and your family. Spend time together, practice letting it go. Put it out of sight, out of mind a little bit. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Don't know if he is around the rest of his family much normally or if he sees them on FB or other social media.  If he does, I would suggest that perhaps he put that on pause.  Not his parents though.  Continue doing what you are doing for and with them. 

He can't change people's views.  He can't change their interactions with his parents.  All he can do is treat his parents with kindness and care, exactly as you are doing now.  The rest is up to God because it is out of our control what other adults do and say. 

You could see if the older generation are taking vitamin C, D and zinc.  There is some evidence esp. on the D and zinc that higher levels help and that will help them do better if they do end up getting it.  But all you can do is suggest it and/or possibly gift them with a bottle or two so that they can't use the excuse that they don't have it.  But of course you can't make them take it.  If the older family members do develop symptoms then help them get the medical care they need. 

[Pen]

I think in terms of risk they take themselves, it is much like drinking, smoking, refusing to wear a seatbelt “on principal.”   You help your do see that he is a separate being, making his own different choices.  He needs good boundaries.

 In terms of your family ‘s own safety , I would cut down on visits.  

There’s no reason for you to shop for them, imo, if they aren’t being careful for themselves. And no reason for you to potentially sacrifice (or even tire yourself by extra shopping) when fil is not wearing a mask “on principle”— he may as well do the shopping for their family. 

I would “on principal” stop shopping for them. And “on principal “  only visit very rarely and briefly entirely out of doors. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I honestly think as time goes on, this is going to be more and more prevalent.  I know very few people IRL who are actually social distancing of any kind at this point though masks are mandatory in stores and such here, so people are wearing them.  People are starting to have bonfires and  meet for picnics and hike together.  As time goes on, until we have a vaccine or good treatments, I think this is going to be a more common problem between those who are continuing to socially distance and those who care but are simply done distancing themselves.

We can’t control what other people do.  There are inherent risks in anything; we’ve just normalized risk in a lot of cases(such as driving a car) and don’t think about it. You and your DH have to make choices you can live with, with your own risk vs benefit analysis, even if those choices are different than others.   
 

I also would talk to your in laws.  I have elderly family members who view the risk and potential of catching Covid as less concerning than spending a good chunk of their time left on earth isolated from family and friends. I respect that(though I am not seeing my grandmother until my cough is completely gone; my husband has taken my kids a few times).  I also know that I am picking up a lot more elderly people at home and in nursing homes who are suddenly failure to thrive-not eating, not drinking, dehydrated, sad, lonely, and are being sent to the hospital raising their Covid exposure risk.   Everything we do has an element of risk and an element of benefit; you have to decide for yourselves what that is for you. 

 

Most people I know irl are still Distancing.  

Even with official “opening” in week 2 in our county. 

[Pen]

30 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Don't know if he is around the rest of his family much normally or if he sees them on FB or other social media.  If he does, I would suggest that perhaps he put that on pause.  Not his parents though.  Continue doing what you are doing for and with them. 

He can't change people's views.  He can't change their interactions with his parents.  All he can do is treat his parents with kindness and care, exactly as you are doing now.  The rest is up to God because it is out of our control what other adults do and say. 

You could see if the older generation are taking vitamin C, D and zinc.  There is some evidence esp. on the D and zinc that higher levels help and that will help them do better if they do end up getting it.  But all you can do is suggest it and/or possibly gift them with a bottle or two so that they can't use the excuse that they don't have it.  But of course you can't make them take it.  If the older family members do develop symptoms then help them get the medical care they need. 

 

I might have misunderstood, but I thought it was the husband’s father who is going to barber and not wearing a mask “on principle”. 

 

[Pen]

 

I think it is primarily a boundary issue.  

Your husband is odd man out in his family. At least in this situation, maybe more generally, but this just brought it to realization.  Obviously that is going to hurt. It is going to be a loss.  

But as long as your decisions for your family are reasonable it is probably very important for him as a person to stick to his own principles and maintain his own boundaries. 

I would guess it is not the first situation in his life and that he may have caved to past pressure. So he will probably have old emotional stuff coming up as well. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

24 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I might have misunderstood, but I thought it was the husband’s father who is going to barber and not wearing a mask “on principle”. 

 

Ah.  Missed that.  So if the ILs are young enough to go out to barbers etc. on their own then I agree that they can do their own shopping because they have made their choice not to protect their own health clear. 

[Pen]

You might even want to look at some YouTube videos on narcissists and see if possibly some of the in laws fit that dynamic.   If so there’s some pretty good knowledge now to help cope.

 

[bolt.]

I think it's time for your husband to get past ideas around fixing the situation and smoothing the relationships. Those are great skills for a lot of situations -- but not for this one.

The skill he actually needs is the one that lets him experience his emotions, lets them run their course, and ends with a sense of personal equilibrium even though the situation is unchanged. This skill, emotional processing, is a totally foreign idea to most people older than millennials. It's pretty simply, a bit counter-intuitive, and not very stoic, so it probably isn't going to appeal to him very much. The goal is that even though he might or might not do anything about the situation, he needs to be the owner of feelings that are *processed* and *integrated* about the situation -- not feelings that are raw, intense, or erratic.

This is done by taking the time and space (usually alone) to let himself think about the situation deeply and vulnerably. Each feeling that occurs he should name and describe.

For example, "I feel angry at xyz about abc." / "I feel fear because..." / "I feel guilty..." / "I feel embarrassed when..." / "I feel powerless because..." -- but not in a list like that. One at a time, if possible.

He should focus his attention on each feeling (in turn) and repeat the descriptive sentence about it to himself, and also say, repeatedly, things like, "This feeling is called (embarrassed)." / "This is what (embarrassed) feels like." This is the time to strategically let the feeling get as big and as real as it needs to be inside himself. He wants to feel it in all of it's fullness. (I don't mean venting or ranting about the situation or the people. I mean letting the inner emotional sensations themselves grow and take space as he gives each one his inner attention.)

Then he should think things like, "It's perfectly normal to feel (name of feeling). Everybody feels (name of feeling) from time to time. This situation is a normal time to feel (name of feeling)." And also, "(Name of feeling) is a strong and uncomfortable feeling. I am strong enough to contain (feeling) and let it be real. All of my feelings belong in my life, even (feeling). (Feeling) will pass if I feel it fully. I can handle (feeling) for as long as I need to. I can take the time to feel (feeling) because I have all the time I need to process and integrate my (feeling) about this situation."

This, unlike most more practical strategies will actually make your husband feel better. Really. It's dumb but it works. (It doesn't mean that he shouldn't do anything more practical about it, just that feeling better is a good goal in and of itself. It's also strategic because it will help him approach his decisions more logically (and people more kindly) if he does choose to do anything.

[Guest]

We just had a family Zoom meeting with most of the ILs that was basically about this. We jointly own a beach house and normally party there several times a summer, and fortunately, one of my BILs called the meeting because his discomfort is very high (higher than mine, even, which is saying something) and he wanted to talk about this and see where everyone’s head is. The Zoom meeting went very well and I’m glad we had it (and we have future plans to meet again for more social meetings), but there is a range of how comfortable each family is, how much they are willing to keep precautions going, how resigned they are to getting it, etc. Fortunately, everyone seems to be in agreement that elders need to be protected from the risk; only one BIL (the one who made the most claims of “it’s overblown”) seemed to be considering getting together with 94-yo MIL for July 4th. 

We basically represent a bell curve, with one BIL at the far end of feeling like there’s no point trying to avoid the virus that stringently, all the way to the BIL who called the meeting, who said after he comes home from Costco, he wonders if he just gambled his family’s health for a bag of chicken breasts. Most family members fall somewhere in the middle. 

I think this is an issue virtually everyone is going to have to feel some conflict over, whether it pertains to family members, adult children, friends, neighbors, or churches and groups you attend normally. If you have reasonable people in your groups, you probably can talk it out with a minimum of angst, but if your people are not reasonable on the whole, I guess there’s just going to have to be lines drawn in the sand. I know *I personally* am not going to accept getting/spreading the virus just because it’s “already been two months.” To me, that’s not a sensible argument. 

[BusyMom5]

We dont have the right to control others' behavior,  so I would listen to DH and let him vent.  It sounds like his parents are making their own decisions,  and they dont line up with yours.  I do think it is their decision.  

Your parents sound younger, but I have grandparents in their 80s.  They have been SD, but after 2 months they miss everyone.  Their time is limited- my grandmother especially.   Are they really supposed to spend their last 6 months on earth not seeing their loved ones?  Their health issues are not Covid-related, but they are just as serious.  They saw my kids for the first time last week.  They are still not going into stores,  are wearing masks, and I dont think they went to church (but I do expect them to go back soon).  My grandmother has limited lung function already, an autoimmune disease, and was told that she will not make it through the flu or any other major illness last summer.  She is happy to have made it another year!  I think that mortality is something that age range sees differently than we do. They have accepted death as something close while we are still trying to run far away.   They lived through friends having all the vaccine preventable diseases, too!  

[prairiewindmomma]

We have this same set of circumstances in our family. Our parents and siblings have resumed “normal life” and we have not and will not.

You asked how Dh becomes “ok” with their choices. I think we acknowledge that they get to make their own choices and that some of those choices may have risks and consequences that we would not choose for ourselves. That’s part A, and the easier bit. 
 

Part B is harder. Part B is when we acknowledge, accept, and feel ok about the fact that some of their choices impact our relationships with them. My family is going all over heck and yon right now. We aren’t going to be able to visit them in person for a while. I may be disappointed about that, but I don’t harbor resentment or bad feelings about that. We are each choosing what we think is best for their circumstances. They are choosing not to stay at home or socially distance. I am choosing not to expose myself or my family except when required for medical care or for essential needs. 
 

The hard part about B is when we have to accept their choices but they are upset about ours. It’s not fair and we feel upset because it isn’t fair.

[cintinative]

I don't have any good advice, but I am also struggling with this. In my case it is my husband and I that are not in agreement. Based on his health issues, I would expect him to be labeled high risk: pre-diabetic, inactive Sarcoidosis of the lung, fatty liver disease, former kidney cancer with partial nephrectomy, overweight, high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Apparently his lung doc told him he was not high risk. I don't get it.   So there is a future family gathering (vacation house) that he keeps talking about (five family units, including a mom who is 84 and lung cancer survivor) and he seems to think this is all okay. From my vantage point, it is super risky and I'd rather not.  He is threatening to go and take the kids without me. I can certainly not let him take the kids but what else can I do in this situation? If he goes and gets sick, it is a 20 hour drive home.

[mathnerd]

There are irresponsible relatives of mine who go as far as to look for cheap cruise fares in order to book future vacations (they are in the medical field or have children who are physicians, which is more confusing). All of them have health conditions that put them at risk (blood pressure, stroke, diabetes, lupus, lung problems etc).

They are not the kind who are cautious about infections and health risks and if both my DH and I were to be put in the ICU if we got CV19, these are the people that my child will have to rely on for care and help and they will not put the infection-risk of a child ahead of their social life. When I explained that in those terms to my husband, it certainly made him see the situation clearly and now he is able to resist without feeling guilty.

[saraha]

Thank you all for such thoughtful advice! I love my well trained mind family! 🥰

[Jean in Newcastle]

I will add one more thing.  If they want you to keep doing the grocery shopping (and are only going out for the very occasional haircut) then I might consider continuing that as a way to lessen their exposure just a little bit.  But if they are out and about every day socializing and yet making you take time out of your busy schedule to shop for them, then that would be a hard "no" from me. 

[Skippy]

I think he is making this about him when it is not. I mean this gently, but his reaction is kind of self-centered.

We have one set of grandparents, and it is important for them that we stay connected with them. They are keeping their distance from others. But they want us near them. This is important to them. They are not interacting this way with us because they are reckless and do not care for our health or well-being or for their own. 

The other set of grandparents wants to keep their distance from us right now. They do not want us near them. They are not doing this because they don't love or care about us.

Let them make their own decisions. They are theirs to make. I think he should stop making this about him.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

.

I’m sorry. It truly sucks. Mine and I are not totally on the same page but for the most part, he sort of puts up with my higher level of discomfort. And he does all the legally-required things (like masks) and some of the other things I ask (like sanitizing his hands repeatedly). But he does think that it’s “been long enough” that ds hasn’t hung out with friends.

I did just permit ds to see a friend (predominantly outside, supposedly SDing) but honestly, I regretted it. I don’t think the boys kept to my standards as I wanted them to and I know the friend has at least one parent who is on the beligerant-about-masks side - I heard the boy telling ds so. So it bothered me and I am not interested in repeating it. That will be yet another uncomfortable conversation if the friend’s parent asks me again, which I assume will happen eventually. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Skippy said:

I think he is making this about him when it is not. I mean this gently, but his reaction is kind of self-centered.

We have one set of grandparents, and it is important for them that we stay connected with them. They are keeping their distance from others. But they want us near them. This is important to them. They are not interacting this way with us because they are reckless and do not care for our health or well-being or for their own. 

The other set of grandparents wants to keep their distance from us right now. They do not want us near them. They are not doing this because they don't love or care about us.

Let them make their own decisions. They are theirs to make. I think he should stop making this about him.

I don't think this is about them getting together with family members to stay connected.  It is about taking reasonable precautions as advised by health experts right now. 

[Reefgazer]

If it makes you feel any better, the judgement is travelling both ways (reference a few comments on this thread), so everyone is getting disrespect from someone at the moment.  That said, and in answer to your question, you *can't* do anything about how other people act.  The lockdown governors can't even do that, even though they proclaim they can, because there are way more people than enforcers and lockdowns depend on citizen cooperation.  People have different reasons for reacting as they do; ignorance rarely plays into those decisions, despite the proclamations that is the problem.  So, since you can't control anyone's actions but your own, I would do your thing exactly as you want it done and not worry about the actions of of other adults who are fully aware of what the risks and benefits are to their actions.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

13 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I honestly think as time goes on, this is going to be more and more prevalent.  I know very few people IRL who are actually social distancing of any kind at this point though masks are mandatory in stores and such here, so people are wearing them.  People are starting to have bonfires and  meet for picnics and hike together.  As time goes on, until we have a vaccine or good treatments, I think this is going to be a more common problem between those who are continuing to socially distance and those who care but are simply done distancing themselves.

We can’t control what other people do.  There are inherent risks in anything; we’ve just normalized risk in a lot of cases(such as driving a car) and don’t think about it. You and your DH have to make choices you can live with, with your own risk vs benefit analysis, even if those choices are different than others.   
 

I also would talk to your in laws.  I have elderly family members who view the risk and potential of catching Covid as less concerning than spending a good chunk of their time left on earth isolated from family and friends. I respect that(though I am not seeing my grandmother until my cough is completely gone; my husband has taken my kids a few times).  I also know that I am picking up a lot more elderly people at home and in nursing homes who are suddenly failure to thrive-not eating, not drinking, dehydrated, sad, lonely, and are being sent to the hospital raising their Covid exposure risk.   Everything we do has an element of risk and an element of benefit; you have to decide for yourselves what that is for you. 

All this, exactly.  I think most of us are going to get this disease before a vaccine/effective treatment come out, and we need to make peace with the fact this is going to be part of our lives, just like HIV and the flu.

[Frances]

41 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

All this, exactly.  I think most of us are going to get this disease before a vaccine/effective treatment come out, and we need to make peace with the fact this is going to be part of our lives, just like HIV and the flu.

I honestly don’t get the comparison to either the flu or HIV. I never once in my life had any concern about getting HIV, not even for a second. As for the flu, I always get the vaccine and am very careful about hygiene during flu season, and have never had it. So if I’m probably going to get this before a vaccine or effective treatment is available, that feels very different to me. Especially given how sick the people I know with it have been. The oldest, who is significantly younger than me, has been sick for over two months.

[Reefgazer]

11 minutes ago, Frances said:

I honestly don’t get the comparison to either the flu or HIV. I never once in my life had any concern about getting HIV, not even for a second. As for the flu, I always get the vaccine and am very careful about hygiene during flu season, and have never had it. So if I’m probably going to get this before a vaccine or effective treatment is available, that feels very different to me. Especially given how sick the people I know with it have been. The oldest, who is significantly younger than me, has been sick for over two months.

I said:  "...this is going to be part of our lives, just like HIV and the flu."  This means it will not be eliminated from the planet (like we did with smallpox).  I made no reference as to whether it of particular concern to you or not; that wasn't the point.  Clearly, some people have made peace with fact already, something we will all need to do if the very real possibility of no available vaccine comes to pass. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Reefgazer

[LucyStoner]

My dad never started taking it seriously,  well, he thinks it’s serious but he’s talked himself into thinking he is immune because, uh, reasons (and no, one of those reasons is not an antibody test or even any reasonable basis to conclude he’s had the virus already).  He’s 77 with an underlying health condition.  We are all worried.  
 

Because he won’t take it seriously, we aren’t rushing to see him again.  
 

There’s a part of me that finds his cavalier attitude painful.  But at the end of the day, it’s his life, his decision.  Part of having boundaries is respecting others.  Learning that you can’t change someone else’s behavior is helpful.  

[madteaparty]

5 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

If it makes you feel any better, the judgement is travelling both ways (reference a few comments on this thread), so everyone is getting disrespect from someone at the moment.  That said, and in answer to your question, you *can't* do anything about how other people act.  The lockdown governors can't even do that, even though they proclaim they can, because there are way more people than enforcers and lockdowns depend on citizen cooperation.  People have different reasons for reacting as they do; ignorance rarely plays into those decisions, despite the proclamations that is the problem.  So, since you can't control anyone's actions but your own, I would do your thing exactly as you want it done and not worry about the actions of of other adults who are fully aware of what the risks and benefits are to their actions.

Yes, we follow precautions (and we wear masks for goodness’ sake), but the righteous distancing and some serious damage to critical thinking is also a covid side effect.  

Edited May 20, 2020 by madteaparty

[SKL]

My mom has the attitude that death is not that far away regardless.  "Old people die."  I don't worry about her because she never goes anywhere anyway, and her kids who visit her are careful.  (She does take lots of vitamin D though.  Given that almost 100% of the people who die of this have low vitamin D [per study/ies]), that helps me feel better too.)

My sister told me that my brother went on a rant to her about my mom not taking this seriously enough.  (I am skeptical given my sister's bent for drama, but let's assume it's true.)  Now she says she won't talk to my brother.  I just shake my head.  Nobody I know is perfect when it comes to health.  They either smoke, or eat poorly, or don't exercise, or drive poorly, or stress too much, or something.  There is no way I could handle taking all that on myself emotionally, especially since I can't control any of it.  Part of successful living is learning to compartmentalize and find a happy place in the midst of crazy.

One suggestion for the OP though - can you try to get your dh to look at the positive side of things - the high Covid19 recovery rate along with the benefits of human contact?  And also, to cut down on how often he looks at the "news" etc.  Those are things he can control for his own well-being.

[BlsdMama]

19 hours ago, whitehawk said:

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

Has he asked his parents, gently and in private, how comfortable they are with the risk of catching Covid19 from other family members, and whether their affairs are in order? Whether they are really okay with close interaction or didn't want to spoil the event?

I think this is a really good way to handle it and the only way to understand their perspective will be to come at it from a nonjudgemental way, i.e., don't add what your perspective is on this.

I'm high risk.  I was all for the initial shut down and procedures.  Why? I knew when it came to the "Who Gets a Mask" lottery I would fall pretty low on the pole.  However, our hospitals have kept up and are handling the influx.  Given that? The best time I could get this, and I do not believe for one minute that I won't get this, is now.  I will never be in better health to hope to acquire some level of immunity than at this minute. That to say, perhaps they are willing to now take calculated risk.  I am.

Edited May 20, 2020 by BlsdMama

[Liz CA]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Bingo.  It’s a tricky balance, but respect goes both ways, and not trying to change someone who disagrees but seek to hear their perspective and just make your own judgments in response.  Because yeah, there may be underlying risk calculations going on you know nothing about because they didn’t share it with you.

 

This. We simply cannot control other people's behavior. We don't have to like it or expose ourselves to anything we don't agree with. Boundaries go both ways, boundaries to keep someone from "invading and trying to control my life" as well as the boundary of keeping me from "invading someone's life trying to control it."

[saraha]

We are not trying to control anyone's actions, only our own. I am trying to help him through dealing with his emotions, grief, frustration, etc. We have never made any suggestions, comments, etc to any of his family because we think everyone has a right to do what they want. I was looking for suggestions for us to come to terms with the choices people we love are making, not change their choices. Choices that include making a plan then not following through (if they didn't like the plan, the time to address that was during the planning) making derisive comments about others, making choices that change the way we will interact with them. I am looking for help for us to change, not for help to change them. I think I am not a good communicator

Edited May 20, 2020 by saraha

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Frances said:

I honestly don’t get the comparison to either the flu or HIV. I never once in my life had any concern about getting HIV, not even for a second. As for the flu 

 

9 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

I said:  "...this is going to be part of our lives, just like HIV and the flu."  This means it will not be eliminated from the planet (like we did with smallpox).  I made no reference as to whether it of particular concern to you or not; that wasn't the point.   

I somewhat get the comparison to flu, as it is common and everyone has an awareness of it. Even taking all the standard precautions means that it is on your mind and part of your life. But I agree with Frances that HIV, while it's obviously not been eliminated, is not a part of most people's lives in the way that flu and now possibly CV-19 is. 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, saraha said:

We are not trying to control anyone's actions, only our own. I am trying to help him through dealing with his emotions, grief, frustration, etc. We have never made any suggestions, comments, etc to any of his family because we think everyone has a right to do what they want. The most hurt stems from all of them talking through the plan, and then we were the only ones following the plan, in addition to the deriding comments made about people trying to be careful just being followers and fearful (which weren't directed at my husband, but were loudly deriding people for making choices different to theirs). We have never shared data, news stories, anything that would give away what we personally were doing/ thinking/feeling until they had a conversation about the party. It was the idea of all of them (his parents included) having a conversation, agreeing on a plan, then no one sticking to it. And the surprise of realizing that his parents were making choices that affect us without telling us there was a change in how they were doing things, which prompts a change in our behavior. Does that make sense?

 

It does.  And I think feeling hurt is normal.  (Even worse, of course, would be if your fil had gotten CV19 from his barber and gave it to your husband while presymptomatic.)

I think @bolt. ‘s post about processing feelings is superb.   I would recommend that as far as feelings go, you and your husband follow that.

As far as actions, I think your own nuclear family (you, husband and kids) can make its own decisions for itself, which do not need to be governed by your in-laws.  

From your other thread about dealing with the party there was a sense I got of your mil as fairly demanding, and you being fearful of being seen as a bad guy, and general sense of walking on eggshells, which together has made me think that you are dealing with a narcissism situation. Narcissistic family dynamics often need a scapegoat and your husband and you may be the “scapegoats” for the dynamic, which would explain why you were not in the decision change loop. 

Even if it isn’t a narcissistic family dynamic, possibly just being the “little brother” has led to a somewhat similar though perhaps not as toxic situation.

 In any case, I think until your nuclear family is truly ready to make the decision to stop Distancing etc, for yourselves, I think you should mostly stop in person contact with the in-laws.  Because the in-laws are clearly involved in risky behavior quite deliberately. That’s on them.

It would be like if they chose to speed drive routinely.  You don’t necessarily need to turn them in to police, but you don’t need to be their passengers or let your kids ride with them. 

 

 

 

[Pen]

11 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

All this, exactly.  I think most of us are going to get this disease before a vaccine/effective treatment come out, and we need to make peace with the fact this is going to be part of our lives, just like HIV and the flu.

 

 I personally think that several vaccines are looking promising. I am particularly trying to follow progress on the UK Oxford one right now. 

 

 

But, yes, it may be that no vaccine will emerge, and it could be that most of us will get SARS2 at some point.

 

I don’t expect to get either HIV or flu though.  So I think in terms of the analogy, that’s a true and valid one, in the sense that I accept both HIV and flu as things that are around, not eradicated.  But I take precautions not to get either.  When doing foster parenting, for example, all children were considered to be potential HIV infected so that dealing with typical childhood scraped knees  had to both take into consideration the child’s need for care and attention, and also everyone else’s need not to become HIV infected if the child was. 

I most definitely do not say to myself, “oh well, we will all just get HIV and the flu.” So, I think as an analogy it actually proves the opposite point to what you were trying to make. 

 

. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

34 minutes ago, saraha said:

We are not trying to control anyone's actions, only our own. I am trying to help him through dealing with his emotions, grief, frustration, etc. We have never made any suggestions, comments, etc to any of his family because we think everyone has a right to do what they want. I was looking for suggestions for us to come to terms with the choices people we love are making, not change their choices. Choices that include making a plan then not following through (if they didn't like the plan, the time to address that was during the planning) making derisive comments about others, making choices that change the way we will interact with them. I am looking for help for us to change, not for help to change them. I think I am not a good communicator

You are a fine communicator.  People are bringing their own baggage into this. 

[Pen]

I’m tagging @gardenmom5 to see if she reads this thread, and maybe the previous one too, if Narcissism red flags are waving for her as they are for me.  

If so, maybe she can help steer you to some good resources.  Because understanding the situation and narcissistic family dynamic might help your husband a great deal. 

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

I’m tagging @gardenmom5 to see if she reads this thread, and maybe the previous one too, if Narcissism red flags are waving for her as they are for me.  

If so, maybe she can help steer you to some good resources.  Because understanding the situation and narcissistic family dynamic might help your husband a great deal. 

I haven't really been following.

There are some good youtube channels for information on narcissism - what it is, and what to do about the narcissists in your life. 

Dr. Ramani  - DoctorRamani

Dr. Les Carter - surviving narcissism

Joanna Kujath

 

eta: understanding the family dynamics when there is a narcissistic parent/sibling - makes a huge difference in how you can keep your sanity intact and knowing what you can do and what will just make things worse.  You can't reason with them they way you can talk to a "normal" person.

Edited May 20, 2020 by gardenmom5

[GoodGrief]

11 hours ago, Frances said:

I honestly don’t get the comparison to either the flu or HIV. I never once in my life had any concern about getting HIV, not even for a second. 

Really? I’m thinking you must be a younger person? There were legitimate fears for many, if not most, of us concerning HIV in the 80s-90s. Sexual activity, the blood supply, blood and body fluid exposure (especially for those of us in health care), newborns getting it from their mothers. It ravaged some parts of Africa.The photos of dying people were everywhere in the media. I’m not an anxious person at all, but the potential consequences of an HIV infection for people in all age and health categories were extreme. 

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

Really? I’m thinking you must be a younger person? There were legitimate fears for many, if not most, of us concerning HIV in the 80s-90s. Sexual activity, the blood supply, blood and body fluid exposure (especially for those of us in health care), newborns getting it from their mothers. It ravaged some parts of Africa.The photos of dying people were everywhere in the media. I’m not an anxious person at all, but the potential consequences of an HIV infection for people in all age and health categories were extreme. 

I had three children in the 80s, and live in a large metro area.  I wasn't never "fearful" of getting HIV.   And for all my dentist claimed their gloves/masks were about preventing hepatitis, they didn't start using them until HIV came on the scene.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

I had three children in the 80s, and live in a large metro area.  I wasn't never "fearful" of getting HIV.   And for all my dentist claimed their gloves/masks were about preventing hepatitis, they didn't start using them until HIV came on the scene.

I wasn't fearful either.  HCW used gloves etc. and were very careful.  Blood supply was tested and still is.  For the most part, the greatest risk was from unprotected sex and /or needle sharing in drug use.  And I did have an exposure and had to be tested (because of my work with the homeless at the time). 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

I said:  "...this is going to be part of our lives, just like HIV and the flu."  This means it will not be eliminated from the planet (like we did with smallpox).  I made no reference as to whether it of particular concern to you or not; that wasn't the point.  Clearly, some people have made peace with fact already, something we will all need to do if the very real possibility of no available vaccine comes to pass. 

My two cents: a vaccine, while that would be terrific and is something I hope for, is not the only way I can ever feel comfortable. There are plenty of other factors that may make it better (relatively speaking) besides vaccine. Development of treatment protocols, how case numbers and hospitalizations decrease where I live, how well mitigation works in public spaces. All of these things will help me personally (only speaking for myself!) feel comfortable with more social interaction, and can be true long before there is a vaccine. 

I came of age in the late 80s and I remember when HIV/AIDS was uppermost in minds of the young and “active” population in the US. Magic Johnson was diagnosed when I was in school and I remember that so vividly because one of my teachers had the last name Johnson and always called herself Magic. So, yes, I remember when “safe sex” and “safer sex” were PSA buzzwords. But with HiV, as treatment protocols were developed, and as more was understood about how it transmits and what to do about that, the extreme fear of it died down. It didn’t take a vaccine for people to calm down. And I think the behavior modifications of the public as a whole was only a net benefit for society as a whole.

I am currently listening to John Berry’s The Great Influenza on Audible. Hearing about how the virus was at first viewed - “It is so mild, we aren’t even certain it is the flu” - and how (current theory) it mutated/adapted into a much deadlier version is such deja vu it makes my head spin. I think that can happen here, maybe already has, and IMO, we as a society best not drop our guard. 

[LucyStoner]

42 minutes ago, saraha said:

We are not trying to control anyone's actions, only our own. I am trying to help him through dealing with his emotions, grief, frustration, etc. We have never made any suggestions, comments, etc to any of his family because we think everyone has a right to do what they want. I was looking for suggestions for us to come to terms with the choices people we love are making, not change their choices. Choices that include making a plan then not following through (if they didn't like the plan, the time to address that was during the planning) making derisive comments about others, making choices that change the way we will interact with them. I am looking for help for us to change, not for help to change them. I think I am not a good communicator

I understand that.  One of the main ways to work through how you both feel about this is the concept of acceptance and understanding what is in your area of influence and out of it.  I didn’t mention boundaries because I think you are trying to control them, I mention it because seeing it from that perspective has freed me from a lot of the stress of feeling upset about other people’s decisions.  I feel the way that I do about it but I don’t feel the weight or stress of thinking that I should or can solve their problem. It also helps me be more honest with people and myself. 
 

It only natural for my family to feel sad and worried about what my dad is doing right now (it’s not just ignoring safety precautions, he’s also let someone who has scammed him before move in with him).  It seems like he’s choosing being able to randomly go to shops over his family.  Nothing about his behavior now is inconsistent with his character or personality.  This is who he is.  His decision means he gets a lot less help from us than my brother does because I don’t think it’s especially safe to be around him.  

Accepting this allows me to feel how I feel without it building to a lot of stress or anger about it.  Acceptance doesn’t mean that what he’s doing ceases to cause feelings but it does allow me to not let those feelings become consuming problems.  

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

Really? I’m thinking you must be a younger person? There were legitimate fears for many, if not most, of us concerning HIV in the 80s-90s. Sexual activity, the blood supply, blood and body fluid exposure (especially for those of us in health care), newborns getting it from their mothers. It ravaged some parts of Africa.The photos of dying people were everywhere in the media. I’m not an anxious person at all, but the potential consequences of an HIV infection for people in all age and health categories were extreme. 

Nope, middle aged. I remember everything you mention, but my point was that I never personally worried about myself getting it. I wasn’t in any risk category personally or professionally and saw the chance of needing a blood transfusion as very low. I’m not at all discounting the terrible effects of it, just saying it wasn’t something that I personally worried about getting. I also wasn’t concerned about my parents which is my biggest fear with the current virus. Now if you took my current family and plopped them back in that time period, I would likely feel quite differently.

[vonfirmath]

I was kind of thinking coronavirus may become our bubonic plague.

That disease had horrific consequences and took hundreds of years to be (mostly) eradicated. Some people would flee their homes for us. Others -- learned to live with the possibility of getting sick because they could not afford to flee.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by vonfirmath