Opinions please - Puppy question

[sangtarah]

We have been looking for a puppy. (Dd and I have a dog allergy.)

There was a Bichon puppy that was sold from under us through mis-communication. Now we are on a waiting list for a Bichon/ShihTzu cross. Those future pups wouldn’t come home until Aug or Sept.  (We have a dog of this mix and she is the best ever.)

But a goldendoodle breeder that my friends know well has a medium F1b puppy that needs a home June 1st. A goldendoodle was my first choice when we started looking because my motivation was to train a support dog for my anxious dd. I don’t know if she would want the dog around all the time, she doesn’t always want our current dog around, so when we couldn’t get a goldendoodle, I went back to a little dog - my favorite. 
 

So now, the choice I can’t make: take the goldendoodle, ready June 1st? Or wait for the future Bichon/ShihTzu pup? 

[ktgrok]

Bichon/ShihTzu is going to be much less allergenic. Bigger dog = more dander, more allergens. And golden genes, even in the F1B generation, could be enough to trigger allergies. 

Have you looked at a miniature poodle or toy poodle?

[sangtarah]

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Bichon/ShihTzu is going to be much less allergenic. Bigger dog = more dander, more allergens. And golden genes, even in the F1B generation, could be enough to trigger allergies. 

Have you looked at a miniature poodle or toy poodle?

Yes, the golden genes are my worry.  My friends with the goldendoodle moved away, but they have a dog from this breeder; she had terrible dog allergies and does great with her pup, and she had been pushing me to get one. 
 

I would love a poodle, but there aren’t many breeders around here for mini poodles!  A toy would be too small for us, I think, since we are planning on moving to a farm in a year or so. 

[Pawz4me]

I agree with Katie--with allergies an issue you're going to be much safer with the Bichon/Shih Tzu mix. Also, I'd advise going with what YOU want, and I don't see any reason the Bichon/ST mix couldn't or wouldn't make just as good a support dog for anxiety issues as the Doodle would. But then I'm very biased toward Tzus. 😉 And I've never met a Bichon that wasn't happy, happy, happy.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Pawz4me

[sangtarah]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I agree with Katie--with allergies an issue you're going to be much safer with the Bichon/Shih Tzu mix. Also, I'd advise going with what YOU want, and I don't see any reason the Bichon/ST mix couldn't or wouldn't make just as good a support dog for anxiety issues as the Doodle would. But then I'm very biased toward Tzus. 😉 And I've never met a Bichon that wasn't happy, happy, happy.

Our little Bichon/ShiTzu is the best ever! Thanks for weighing in! 😊

[ktgrok]

26 minutes ago, sangtarah said:

Yes, the golden genes are my worry.  My friends with the goldendoodle moved away, but they have a dog from this breeder; she had terrible dog allergies and does great with her pup, and she had been pushing me to get one. 
 

I would love a poodle, but there aren’t many breeders around here for mini poodles!  A toy would be too small for us, I think, since we are planning on moving to a farm in a year or so. 

Yes, but each puppy in the litter will have a different combination of genes, just like each of your children are not exactly alike. So one puppy not being allergenic to one particular person does't mean another puppy from the same breeder or even the same parents would be non allergenic with your kid. 

And having to rehome a dog due to allergies would be devastating...I'd do almost anything to avoid that. Even if the bichon mix bothered her a bit, it is easy to rinse off regularly compared to a bigger dog. And by sheer size alone will be less allergenic. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, sangtarah said:

We have been looking for a puppy. (Dd and I have a dog allergy.)

There was a Bichon puppy that was sold from under us through mis-communication. Now we are on a waiting list for a Bichon/ShihTzu cross. Those future pups wouldn’t come home until Aug or Sept.  (We have a dog of this mix and she is the best ever.)

But a goldendoodle breeder that my friends know well has a medium F1b puppy that needs a home June 1st. A goldendoodle was my first choice when we started looking because my motivation was to train a support dog for my anxious dd. I don’t know if she would want the dog around all the time, she doesn’t always want our current dog around, so when we couldn’t get a goldendoodle, I went back to a little dog - my favorite. 
 

So now, the choice I can’t make: take the goldendoodle, ready June 1st? Or wait for the future Bichon/ShihTzu pup? 

F1B would be a goldendoodle that has been crossed back to the poodle so you will be 99% assured of getting  that non-shedding less/hypoallergenic "hair/fleece" coat.   what size are the parents?    (weight can be deceiving.  height at shoulders is more accurate.)

Personally, I would go for the golden.  shihztu's have a reputation of being on the more difficult side to train.  (so you don't know what you'll get with the bichon cross).

both require more grooming than a dog with fur (that sheds).

both breeds want to be around people.   what is it about your current dog she doesn't want it around her?  How old is your dd?   (trying to determine if she'll be leaving home soon or not.  and if she is - would she be taking the dog with her or leaving it with you?)

My dd is also on the spectrum, and deals with a lot of anxiety.  That's why she got her (multigen) labradoodles.   They're on the sm/med side for the breed.   (16"/17")

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

one last question - 

what do you know about either of the breeders?  I would be looking at both of them as well, as that will tell you more about the quality of the puppies. Are they registered with any organizations?  or backyard breeders?

a straight breed-breed cross, you don't know what you're going to get for dominant traits of a particular breed.   with established breeding programs, the dominant traits will be more reliable.

an F1b puppy is still early in a  ___doodle breeding program.    (___doodle X poodle.  They do this to reinforce the poodle coat.)

With a multi-gen, the personality/coat traits for which they are being bred, are much more established and reliable in a given puppy.

[Pen]

I would go with whichever dog you most want since you will almost certainly be the one to care for the dog and it doesn’t sound clear that your daughter will really want or bond with either. 

Also in addition to other issues like allergens and size, I prefer summer for puppies as it is much nicer to do house training when it is not cold, rainy, icy, or even snowy, and dark for much of each 24 hours. 

But that could depend on your environment. Some places it may not matter much or even be more pleasant in winter. 

[ktgrok]

30 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

F1B would be a goldendoodle that has been crossed back to the poodle so you will be 99% assured of getting  that non-shedding less/hypoallergenic "hair/fleece" coat.   what size are the parents?    (weight can be deceiving.  height at shoulders is more accurate.)

Personally, I would go for the golden.  shihztu's have a reputation of being on the more difficult side to train.  (so you don't know what you'll get with the bichon cross).

both require more grooming than a dog with fur (that sheds).

both breeds want to be around people.   what is it about your current dog she doesn't want it around her?  How old is your dd?   (trying to determine if she'll be leaving home soon or not.  and if she is - would she be taking the dog with her or leaving it with you?)

My dd is also on the spectrum, and deals with a lot of anxiety.  That's why she got her (multigen) labradoodles.   They're on the sm/med side for the breed.   (16"/17")

 

Yes, it would be 75% poodle in ancestry. But..that one parent, the doodle parent, might pass on poodle genes, or might pass on mostly golden genes, makig it more like a 50/50 cross. It happens. 

If you DO do a doodle, look for the smaller/mini size, to help with overall allergies. 

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, it would be 75% poodle in ancestry. But..that one parent, the doodle parent, might pass on poodle genes, or might pass on mostly golden genes, makig it more like a 50/50 cross. It happens. 

If you DO do a doodle, look for the smaller/mini size, to help with overall allergies. 

Also, a doodle is going to be VERY different from a Bichon/Shitzu in personality, exercise needs, training needs, etc. 

[sangtarah]

39 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

both breeds want to be around people.   what is it about your current dog she doesn't want it around her?  How old is your dd?   (trying to determine if she'll be leaving home soon or not.  and if she is - would she be taking the dog with her or leaving it with you?)

She's 10. She loves our current dog, but dd is just finicky. So she goes through times of being with her all the time, then times of "dog is smelly", etc. They took a basic obedience course before COVID shut everything down, and dd really enjoyed it. But she isn't into having people or pets in her space 100% of the time - she goes through cycles. 

[sangtarah]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

I would go with whichever dog you most want since you will almost certainly be the one to care for the dog and it doesn’t sound clear that your daughter will really want or bond with either. 

Also in addition to other issues like allergens and size, I prefer summer for puppies as it is much nicer to do house training when it is not cold, rainy, icy, or even snowy, and dark for much of each 24 hours. 

But that could depend on your environment. Some places it may not matter much or even be more pleasant in winter. 

I would prefer summer training, too! We are in the midwest where Fall comes early and is fairly cold. But I can't get a Bichon/ShihTzu any earlier than Aug/Sep. 

I am leaning towards a smaller dog, so the Bichon/ShihTzu is in the lead. The Medium F1b is estimated at 30-40 pounds, and that is a lot of dog. Our little dog is around 18 pounds.

[sangtarah]

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, a doodle is going to be VERY different from a Bichon/Shitzu in personality, exercise needs, training needs, etc. 

Yes, this is my other concern... a goldendoodle would be more likely to go, go, go with dd.  But if it is primarily my dog, I want a couch potato, LOL. 

Of course I'd be the one to train either one, only because dd isn't able to be consistent. 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, sangtarah said:

I would prefer summer training, too! We are in the midwest where Fall comes early and is fairly cold. But I can't get a Bichon/ShihTzu any earlier than Aug/Sep. 

I am leaning towards a smaller dog, so the Bichon/ShihTzu is in the lead. The Medium F1b is estimated at 30-40 pounds, and that is a lot of dog. Our little dog is around 18 pounds.

 

My last winter puppy, slipping and sliding on ice, shivering in dark at 5am potty trip, I decided no more winter puppies.   Maybe an autumn puppy is ok. 

[Selkie]

49 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

My last winter puppy, slipping and sliding on ice, shivering in dark at 5am potty trip, I decided no more winter puppies.   Maybe an autumn puppy is ok. 

We got our two Aussie puppies in mid-December, and there were many subzero middle-of-the-night potty trips. They didn't mind it at all - they love cold and snow - but I minded it!

[sangtarah]

We do have 3 other kids to consider. Youngest dd is 3, then ds is 6, and oldest dd is 14. 

[ktgrok]

48 minutes ago, sangtarah said:

We do have 3 other kids to consider. Youngest dd is 3, then ds is 6, and oldest dd is 14. 

Bigger dog may knock the 3 yr old down a lot until trained. 

[Pawz4me]

52 minutes ago, sangtarah said:

We do have 3 other kids to consider. Youngest dd is 3, then ds is 6, and oldest dd is 14. 

That's tough.

Generally I'm wary of medium/large bouncy breeds around little kids. Again, like Katie said--those puppies tend to think nothing of knocking little kids down jumping on them, or charging through them as if they weren't even there. My DS24 still talks about the time my brother's young Lab tackled him from behind. DS had no idea the dog was coming, and the dog wasn't bothered in the least by DS being between him and what he wanted to get to. "I'll just go right through the kid!" LOL

Generally I'm wary of small breed puppies in homes with little kids, because they don't always understand how to be gentle with a puppy and not treat it like a baby doll. I'm assuming differently here, though, since you already have a small dog.

I still come back to what I first said -- Get the one that appeals to you the most. Chances are it's going to be yours.

[Pen]

I actually think 30-40 pound size is likely to be good size for kids.   

But I am wary of that because you seem like you want the smaller one, and moms usually end up with most dog care. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you can't guarantee that the exercise and socialization needs of a larger dog will be met, then I wouldn't get one.  Dogs have to be walked even if someone doesn't want to be around them.  So can you guarantee that you will walk the dog on those days, for example?  Or that one of the other kids will?  Or your dh?  Do you have a fenced back yard that is big enough for a bigger dog?  Bigger dogs (in my opinion) need more training to make sure that they are 'good canine citizens'.  Not that little dogs don't need to be trained but a bigger dog that jumps up or growls or begs is a bigger problem just due to their size and weight.  I love bigger dogs myself but I am absolutely committed to meeting those needs so that they and I are both happy.

Re. bigger dogs knocking kids down, I am convinced that dd grew up with excellent balance because she learned to walk while our Springer Spaniel with Puppy ADHD was a puppy knocking her down all the time! 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

We got our two Aussie puppies in mid-December, and there were many subzero middle-of-the-night potty trips. They didn't mind it at all - they love cold and snow - but I minded it!

dd's fall puppy liked being outside more than the spring puppy - and he spent most of his first summer outside!

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

If you can't guarantee that the exercise and socialization needs of a larger dog will be met, then I wouldn't get one.  Dogs have to be walked even if someone doesn't want to be around them.  So can you guarantee that you will walk the dog on those days, for example?  Or that one of the other kids will?  Or your dh?  Do you have a fenced back yard that is big enough for a bigger dog?  Bigger dogs (in my opinion) need more training to make sure that they are 'good canine citizens'.  Not that little dogs don't need to be trained but a bigger dog that jumps up or growls or begs is a bigger problem just due to their size and weight.  I love bigger dogs myself but I am absolutely committed to meeting those needs so that they and I are both happy.

Re. bigger dogs knocking kids down, I am convinced that dd grew up with excellent balance because she learned to walk while our Springer Spaniel with Puppy ADHD was a puppy knocking her down all the time! 

my GSD would go barreling around little kids - and not touch them.

the bolded makes me think of the book: All dogs have ADHD

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

my GSD would go barreling around little kids - and not touch them.

the bolded makes me think of the book: All dogs have ADHD

The hyper crazy puppy that Kand mentioned?  Our springer was that way for 14 years.  There were no calm older dog years. 

[Pawz4me]

22 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

my GSD would go barreling around little kids - and not touch them.

the bolded makes me think of the book: All dogs have ADHD

Genetics. Sporting breeds are bred to be touch insensitive. A retriever who wouldn't go into a brier patch or an icy creek, pond or lake wouldn't be much use. That same touch insensitivity makes them think nothing of invading personal space, up to and including jumping on and plowing right through people. It takes a goodly amount of training to get the ones from hunting lines to not do it. Now I don't know how much of that has been bred out of most Goldens and poodles (the standard ones were, after all, bred to be retrievers). I think neither of those breeds are used much for retrieving game any more?

 

19 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The hyper crazy puppy that Kand mentioned?  Our springer was that way for 14 years.  There were no calm older dog years. 

Our Brittany was the same way!

Edited May 18, 2020 by Pawz4me

[sangtarah]

Just had to share photos of our almost 9 year old Bichon/ShihTzu. She’s always happy and was very easy train. 
 

Thanks for all the discussion! I am going to stick with the smaller Bichon/Shih-Tzu mix! Hopefully we get another laid back love!

[StaceyinLA]

I'd be concerned about a shih tzu coat with allergens. Why not go for a purebred Bichon, maybe a purebred mini schnauzer, or a mini or standard poodle? I tend to have a lot of allergy issues with the breeds with fine hair, as well as shedding breeds.

I'm not a doodle fan. Yeah they should ideally be great dogs, but the coats can be a disaster. My niece has one and the coat mats up close to the skin - you don't even realize it til it's too late and he has to be shaved. In addition, he sheds horribly.

I am just not a fan of designer breeds. Standard poodles are fantastic dogs, and so are Goldens, but you do not always get the best of those when you cross them.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Genetics. Sporting breeds are bred to be touch insensitive. A retriever who wouldn't go into a brier patch or an icy creek, pond or lake wouldn't be much use. That same touch insensitivity makes them think nothing of invading personal space, up to and including jumping on and plowing right through people. It takes a goodly amount of training to get the ones from hunting lines to not do it. Now I don't know how much of that has been bred out of most Goldens and poodles (the standard ones were, after all, bred to be retrievers). I think neither of those breeds are used much for retrieving game any more?

Dd's breeder's dh used to breed hunting dogs.  Someone asked him if they could use one of their doodles for hunting.  He said sure - it'll go into the reeds once, and never again.

the hair attracts every thing, and it sticks to it.  my friend would bring her mix (with fur) over to play, and they'd have a blast together - but her furred pup, the dirt would dry and fall off.  things just wouldn't stick to him.  meanwhile - I'm washing the doodle's paws.

I did see the puppy acting like he'd do sniff work.  after dd left, he was following her trail out to where she would have gotten in her car.  and circling and trying to figure out where it went.

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Genetics. Sporting breeds are bred to be touch insensitive. A retriever who wouldn't go into a brier patch or an icy creek, pond or lake wouldn't be much use. That same touch insensitivity makes them think nothing of invading personal space, up to and including jumping on and plowing right through people. It takes a goodly amount of training to get the ones from hunting lines to not do it. Now I don't know how much of that has been bred out of most Goldens and poodles (the standard ones were, after all, bred to be retrievers). I think neither of those breeds are used much for retrieving game any more?

 

Our Brittany was the same way!

And conversely the herding breeds needed to be VERY aware of where their body is in space, so that they can control the sheep/cattle/etc...they use posture, space, distance, movement to do that. So total opposite 🙂

[SounderChick]

Seems you have already decided.  On the whole puppies knocking kids down.  Our new pittbull-boxer cracks me up she is so careful even in her full zoomie moments to never run into the baby.  She will than wag her tail so hard that she knocks her over while standing still.

[sangtarah]

4 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

I'd be concerned about a shih tzu coat with allergens. Why not go for a purebred Bichon, maybe a purebred mini schnauzer, or a mini or standard poodle? I tend to have a lot of allergy issues with the breeds with fine hair, as well as shedding breeds.

I'm not a doodle fan. Yeah they should ideally be great dogs, but the coats can be a disaster. My niece has one and the coat mats up close to the skin - you don't even realize it til it's too late and he has to be shaved. In addition, he sheds horribly.

I am just not a fan of designer breeds. Standard poodles are fantastic dogs, and so are Goldens, but you do not always get the best of those when you cross them.

Here in the Midwest, purebred Bichons and Poodles are very hard to find. I’ve looked and looked. But our ShihTzu/Bichon doesn’t bother us, so I figured it would be okay again.