Crash Course Spelling?!?

[domestic_engineer]

I dropped the ball with spelling this past year.  Does the hive have any ideas/tips/curriculum/plans on how to accelerate spelling instruction over the summer?  I'm imagining a crash course / boot camp / jump start /summer intensive type of plan. I fully understand that spelling is best taught in a regular, consistent manner, and I might be asking for the impossible in this post.

This is for a finishing-5th grader who is likely a stealth dyslexic.  We've used AAS1-3 and are in the back-half of AAS4.  And since this isn't my first child, I have AAS 5&6 on my shelf.  Do I keep going through AAS as fast as possible?  Do I drop AAS and go to Megawords?  or something else?!?!

 

[8filltheheart]

Um, my response is that for dyslexic, speed is not a word that I ever connect to spelling.  We go as slow as necessary in order to imprint correct spelling into long-term memory.  That said, I don't use AAS bc I think the building of stronger word lists for  older kids is too slow bc phonograms are spread out over so many books.  I like the difficulty of words in Apples and Pears more bc of the word difficulty.  But, either way, I would not go through any spelling as quickly as possible, just at speed of mastery.

[domestic_engineer]

20 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 I don't use AAS bc I think the building of stronger word lists for  older kids is too slow bc phonograms are spread out over so many books. 

Maybe what you said above is what has me antsy with AAS.  Thanks, 8, for the honesty and reality check.  I need it!!  🙂

[forty-two]

I'm assuming, given your concern plus the stealth dyslexia comment, that your dc's spelling is quite a bit below grade level.  My oldest was similar (and my middle not far behind her).  My oldest's "in the wild" spelling at the end of 5th wasn't great - she was guaranteed to have several misspellings in anything she wrote, and I strongly encouraged her to do rough drafts (that I would spell-check) before she wrote anything she meant to give to someone.  (Even so, the garden-variety "bad spelling" she had at the end of 5th was a genuine improvement over the truly wretched spelling she had at the end of 3rd, where anything over CVC was more likely to be misspelled than not.)  But by the end of 7th, she was fairly decent, and now she's fairly effective.  She can spell most of the top 2,000 words "in the wild", and she can effectively use a dictionary to look up words she isn't sure of.  (She says spell-check is only helpful when she's just switched the order of two letters, but otherwise she has more success looking a word up in the dictionary than in spell-check recognizing her attempts.)  A key thing is that, between her spelling and dictionary skills, she can figure out most any word - she's no longer having to censor herself, avoiding using words because she doesn't know how to spell them. 

In general, to get my girls spelling, I've been doing a three-pronged approach to spelling:
1) work on phonemic awareness (breaking one-syllable words into phonemes and combining phonemes into words, and breaking multi-syllable words into morphemes and combining morphemes into words); I used my homegrown OG-style approach (using Dekodiphukan's sound pictures) for another pass through their phonics book plus Rewards Reading,
2) direct instruction on phonetic spelling (my homegrown OG approach) and then on spelling by morphographs (I used Spelling through Morphographs), and
3) studied dictation, using Spelling You See's visual marking system (we've done a level of SYS, modified WWE dictation to use SYS markings, and done Dictation Day by Day); really, just about everything we did for LA in upper elementary I modified to use SYS markings. 

Once they had the tools to break words into morphemes and phonemes (and were able to apply them to new words) and were generally successful in their spelling program, studied dictation (and later, once their spelling was good enough, cold dictation) was a big help in getting their spelling skills to transfer to their "in the wild" writing. 

~*~

What sorts of things can your dc spell successfully, and what sort of errors do they make?  Would you say AAS is working, in the sense that your dc is successfully learning what it is teaching?

 

In general, if AAS is working, I'd continue it, especially since you own it.  I'd be more prone to do Megawords (or another morphograph-based spelling program, like Apples & Pears or Spelling through Morphographs) *after* you finish AAS, not *instead* of AAS.  If your dc is successful in their spelling program, but it's not transferring to their writing, you could add in some studied dictation alongside your program and see if it helps.

Edited May 16, 2020 by forty-two

[domestic_engineer]

4 hours ago, forty-two said:

I'm assuming, given your concern plus the stealth dyslexia comment, that your dc's spelling is quite a bit below grade level.  My oldest was similar (and my middle not far behind her).  My oldest's "in the wild" spelling at the end of 5th wasn't great - she was guaranteed to have several misspellings in anything she wrote, and I strongly encouraged her to do rough drafts (that I would spell-check) before she wrote anything she meant to give to someone.  (Even so, the garden-variety "bad spelling" she had at the end of 5th was a genuine improvement over the truly wretched spelling she had at the end of 3rd, where anything over CVC was more likely to be misspelled than not.)  But by the end of 7th, she was fairly decent, and now she's fairly effective.  She can spell most of the top 2,000 words "in the wild", and she can effectively use a dictionary to look up words she isn't sure of.  (She says spell-check is only helpful when she's just switched the order of two letters, but otherwise she has more success looking a word up in the dictionary than in spell-check recognizing her attempts.)  A key thing is that, between her spelling and dictionary skills, she can figure out most any word - she's no longer having to censor herself, avoiding using words because she doesn't know how to spell them. 

In general, to get my girls spelling, I've been doing a three-pronged approach to spelling:
1) work on phonemic awareness (breaking one-syllable words into phonemes and combining phonemes into words, and breaking multi-syllable words into morphemes and combining morphemes into words); I used my homegrown OG-style approach (using Dekodiphukan's sound pictures) for another pass through their phonics book plus Rewards Reading,
2) direct instruction on phonetic spelling (my homegrown OG approach) and then on spelling by morphographs (I used Spelling through Morphographs), and
3) studied dictation, using Spelling You See's visual marking system (we've done a level of SYS, modified WWE dictation to use SYS markings, and done Dictation Day by Day); really, just about everything we did for LA in upper elementary I modified to use SYS markings. 

Once they had the tools to break words into morphemes and phonemes (and were able to apply them to new words) and were generally successful in their spelling program, studied dictation (and later, once their spelling was good enough, cold dictation) was a big help in getting their spelling skills to transfer to their "in the wild" writing. 

~*~

What sorts of things can your dc spell successfully, and what sort of errors do they make?  Would you say AAS is working, in the sense that your dc is successfully learning what it is teaching?

 

In general, if AAS is working, I'd continue it, especially since you own it.  I'd be more prone to do Megawords (or another morphograph-based spelling program, like Apples & Pears or Spelling through Morphographs) *after* you finish AAS, not *instead* of AAS.  If your dc is successful in their spelling program, but it's not transferring to their writing, you could add in some studied dictation alongside your program and see if it helps.

It's hard for me to know how far "behind" DC is since the older sibling is a natural speller.  But your description of your children sounds about right for mine.   🙂. You have given me hope; thanks!

Why do you think studied dictation is so important?  What advantages does it give over cold dictation?  Is it the repetition of a purposeful, analysis of a word?

I *think* AAS is working, just not as fast as I wish.  So, I like your idea to finish AAS and then move on to a morphograph based program.  

I appreciate your help and encouragement!  Thank you, forty-two.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, domestic_engineer said:

I *think* AAS is working, just not as fast as I wish.

I'm not sure there is "fast" with a dyslexic. But yes, it sounds like if you got her through the 5&6 she'd be in a great place. At that point, as long as it's carrying over to her school work, she's probably actually at grade level. And AAS has a 7 now, right?

Dictation can go either way. AAS gives you dictation, so you're spelling the words together one day, writing sentences with them from dictation another. So that's essentially studied dictation. 

Is her spelling carrying over to her everyday? As long as it is, I wouldn't fret but would just get some focus and get moving forward. Are there skills that are actually MORE important to her right now? Can she type? The Eides suggest using the kinesthetic memory of typing for spelling. So you could work on typing and reinforce your spelling.

[forty-two]

16 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

Why do you think studied dictation is so important?  What advantages does it give over cold dictation?  Is it the repetition of a purposeful, analysis of a word?

It's more that I think that *dictation* is super important.  WRT studied vs cold dictation, it's not really that I think one is more *important* than the other, but that they do somewhat different things.  When it comes to getting spelling to transfer over to in-the-wild writing, I'm not sure there's a big difference between studied dictation and cold dictation; heck, cold dictation, being closer to in-the-wild writing, might actually be more effective.  *If* the student can be successful at it. 

And that right there is why I first started with studied dictation - because cold dictation was just too hard for my oldest.  We were doing WWE2, and there was just. no. way. she could have done the dictations cold - her spelling was just too bad.  Studied dictation allowed her to spell things she couldn't otherwise spell.  Studied dictation was kind of a bridge between formal spelling lessons and in-the-wild writing; it had the uncontrolled vocabulary of in-the-wild writing, but it used the analysis tools she'd learned and practiced in formal lessons.  In effect, it was applied spelling, guided practice in applying spelling tools to words in the wild. 

So, mostly I hit studied dictation so much because my kids find it a lot more doable than cold dictation.  And I use the SYS markings because it's a fun, efficient way to analyze the words.  I do move away from studied dictation to cold dictation (and writing from memory) once they no longer need that sort of guided practice.

 

ETA: Studied dictation has been really helpful in the in-between stage - where they are successful in their spelling program, but it hasn't really hit all the common-but-phonetically-weird words yet (instead working on phonetically regular words and common patterns), and so no matter how good their learned spelling, they miss all these common-but-unlearned words in their writing.  Studied dictation allows them to get some guided practice on those words before they study them formally, and so gives a big bump to their outside writing, but is still treating the words phonetically and not as sight words.  ETA2: It helps with common multi-syllable words that they haven't gotten to yet in their spelling program, too.

Edited May 17, 2020 by forty-two

[PeterPan]

When I've heard people say studied dictation, they meant they handed the kid the model to study before the day of the dictation. It sounds like @forty-two is describing something different. With SWR we'd teach and work through the words one day, dictate a sentence with them the next. Also I did literature dictation where I would drop the reading level to get those high frequency words we had already worked through to build proficiency and improve mastery.

There's also a spiral spelling dictation program. http://www.susancanthony.com/bk/db.html  I think it pairs with her Spelling Plus book. I didn't use this with my dd, because we were already past that point when I came across it. Just thought it made a lot of sense. 

[8filltheheart]

41 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

When I've heard people say studied dictation, they meant they handed the kid the model to study before the day of the dictation......

There's also a spiral spelling dictation program.

That is what I think of in terms of studied dictation, as well. That approach has been a complete failure with my dyslexics.

There are multiple spiral spelling dictation programs. A&P and HTTS both include spiraled dictation. (IIRC, AAS does, too, but on a lower level or maybe shorter term words? Been a while.)

Edited May 17, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[forty-two]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

When I've heard people say studied dictation, they meant they handed the kid the model to study before the day of the dictation. It sounds like @forty-two is describing something different.

What I do is basically SYS, but using my own models (also I incorporated the OG-based sound-spelling correspondence charts we used for phonics and the prefix/suffix chart from Rewards, instead of just using SYS's phonogram/affix lists - so there was continuity with our previous formal study).  I suppose it's a subset of studied dictation, in that the "study before" is guided OG word analysis (through marking up the passage SYS-style) + copywork, instead of leaving it entirely up to the kid how they study it.  (The latter wouldn't have worked here, either.)  It's similar to CW Aesop's approach to word study, in that it's not a *replacement* for a formal spelling program, but instead is guided practice in *applying* the tools learned in a formal program to real-life, uncontrolled models, first by analyzing the words in the passage (using the tools learned in your formal program), next by copying the passage, and finally by writing the passage from dictation.

Since I came to studied dictation via SYS (and first applied it to WWE, which introduces dictation by having them use the passage as copywork before writing it from dictation), I forget that the CM approach to studied dictation is a lot more freeform. 

 

ETA: With my middle, after she finished the SYS book we had, I started a spiralling dictation program, Dictation Day by Day, which I do in my modified SYS-style.  She marks up the passage and then copies it in the morning, and I dictate it to her in the afternoon.  And she got tired of marking up her WWE dictation, so she now does it mostly cold (before the dictation, I go over any words I think she might have trouble with).  She usually only needs me to go over the words SWB mentions going over.

Edited May 17, 2020 by forty-two

[forty-two]

Forgot to mention, Dictation Day by Day is free online - it's in the public domain: https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A"Kate+Van+Wagenen"

Turns out I am actually using Modern Speller, which is a compilation of several Dictation Day by Day volumes.  Modern Speller Vol 1 is 2nd-4th Year, and Vol 2 is 5th-8th Year.  I started with "Fourth Year - First Half", partly so it would be fairly easy, and also because the Fourth Year has pictures and the Fifth Year does not, and my dd likes to color the pictures.  I printed out the pages, using the "fit to printer margins" setting (which enlarged it), which makes it easy for dd to mark up. 

 

ETA: Also, in terms of "spelling things I've done", I've also done Touch, Type, Read and Spell with the girls, which uses an OG progression.  Oldest dd took a little over 1.5yr to finish, while middle dd is 3/4 done in two school years (middle dd hit a wall last year and backed way up when she restarted this year); I'm planning for middle dd to continue over the summer, in the hopes she can finish before this year's subscription is up in mid-August. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by forty-two

[domestic_engineer]

So what I'm hearing is .....

(1) assuming AAS is working, i.e., in-the-wild spelling is equivalent to what has been taught, keep progressing forward with AAS as the explicit, instructional portion.
(2). Dictation, in whatever form, is another crucial component.  Cold dictation will challenge DC to apply the lessons learned to in-the-wild scenarios.  Studied dictation will provide the scaffolding to proficient, in-the-wild spelling because (a) we are slowing down the student to actively think about the spelling (b) we model and collaborate on the word analysis that is needed (c) can cover the common--but-yet-to-be-learned words.

This explicit modeling of a word analysis makes so much sense.  AAS does a bit of that, but I can see how adding more dictation (and thus more guided word analysis) to AAS would be helpful to a dyslexic.  And I can see how the color coding system would provide another input to help retain the information.  

So, @forty-two, if I don't have SYS, is it worth purchasing a level to become introduced to their philosophy or could I just jump into DDbD/Modern Speller?  (I've wondered for years about doing DDbD with this kiddo.)

And @PeterPan, DC's typing skill is pretty good.  We do type the words sometimes, but I'm still of the opinion that hand writing is better for the memory than typing.  But you're right, that typing the words could be a good way to get the repetition in.  (and actually, I see more spelling errors when DC types than when written by hand.  Perhaps because the brain is wanting to go so fast and get the ideas out that spelling goes by the wayside?!?!?)

But wait - now that I type that out ....... how do I get the spelling of the words to become automatic?  What if during spelling lessons, it seems like it's working because it's all word lists and meaningless dictation sentences with no time pressure.  But then when DC is composing a paper, e-mail, or whatever, the ideas can't get on the paper fast enough, so spelling is neglected.  Maybe that's what I'm really asking for help on?!?!?

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

how do I get the spelling of the words to become automatic?

High frequency exposure. When I did dictation, I wanted my dd to think through the word, hear the word, say the word, write the word, read it aloud again. That way she was getting kinesthetic, visual, auditory, all the inputs. And we did instructional level dictation (SWR), and literature dictation. The literature dictation was chosen to reinforce and build that mastery level. So you could pick up The Cat in the Hat if you want and dictate to build mastery at that level, yes. I was dictating stuff like Winnie the Pooh, whatever I had lying around. 

31 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

when DC is composing a paper, e-mail, or whatever, the ideas can't get on the paper fast enough, so spelling is neglected.  Maybe that's what I'm really asking for help on?!?!?

THIS is a great thing to discuss! I forget the age of this dc, but have you discussed it with her to problem solve? One of the things I wanted with my dd was active attention to spelling. So when I did spelling, I would ask her whether she knew how to spell the words. That way she was always seeing it correctly but it always was turning on her brain to the idea that spelling is important and we should always be attending to it.

That said, it sounds like you have more things going on there.

-low working memory--If working memory is low, they're going to struggle to hold their thoughts.

-discomfort with writing or a brain that goes faster than their hands--We did a variety of supports for this over the years. Sometimes dd used dictation software. Your ipad, kindle, anything can do this. Sometimes she used a hybrid chicken scratch + type method, where she would chicken scratch her ideas REALLY FAST and then go back and type them out. Corollary to this is getting the in EF supports like outlines, graphic organizers, mindmapping software, etc.

-lots to say--When their language ability is high and any other part of the process is struggling to keep up, we need to step up the supports. 

So this dc is crunchy? You could do some working memory and metronome work. Search for Heathermomster's posts. You won't go wrong doing this. Metronome work targets EF and can get a surprising number of things working better. With my dd I did Heathermomster's metronome work and blended in digit spans (for working memory) and distractions. You also want to work on working memory other ways, like games. Anyways, the effects were really profound. She found it easier to get out her thoughts, hold them while typing, etc.

I think given that you suspect dyslexia I would consider, when practical, getting paper trail to establish accommodations. I were *err* toward tech at all times. Any time her ability to get out her thoughts improves with access to tech, I would use tech. If the task *needs* to involve physical handwriting, do so. But as her amount of writing increases, we expect her to need tech. And frankly the use of tech is so ubiquitous it's almost the accommodation that doesn't have to be specified. If she physically can write without discomfort, I would continue to write some. But if the task is specifically about getting language out, where the ability to get it out in volume and entirety is the point, I would use tech. 

Does she have any tech? Once I got my dd an ipad, she was able to start finding her own solutions. My ds is junk at finding his own solutions, but he has ASD and functions way behind. Well that and he could care less, lol. As long as his tech plays audiobooks he's golden, lol. But if she WANTS to write and has something to say, she might like getting creative with tech. There are apps dyslexia schools tend to use and you'll find lists of them. Younger grades it's stuff where they're making videos, books, powerpoints, etc. It takes some fiddling to find how she likes to use tech. I think at one point my dd used the microphone on the earbuds. Actually I think she still uses that when on the phone. It's surprisingly good! 

There are a number of good typing programs. If she physically can do the task, it's a good idea to move forward. You can throw her AAS words from levels 1-3 into the typing program for it to use for practice. Then she's getting the kinesthetic memory of the motions for typing the spelling as well. You can arrange the lists by word pattern. There's a typing program by Diana Hanbury King (dyslexia guru) that does this.

 

[forty-two]

1 hour ago, domestic_engineer said:

So, @forty-two, if I don't have SYS, is it worth purchasing a level to become introduced to their philosophy or could I just jump into DDbD/Modern Speller?  (I've wondered for years about doing DDbD with this kiddo.)

Your summary sounds good to me 👍.  I expect you could just jump into DDbD.  SYS provides the world's most open-and-go spiral dictation program - it is extremely convenient and easy to use.  But most of the value comes from how they've laid it all out for you, and hold your hand as much you need through it.  (Also, philosophy-wise, they aren't all that OG - I brought in some extra OG focus.)  But with having done AAS, I expect you have all the knowledge you need to apply AAS's approach to word analysis to DDbD.  Marking-wise, here's the categories: vowel digraphs, r-controlled vowels, y-as-a-vowel, consonant digraphs, silent letters, prefixes, suffixes; each category gets its own color.  I added in blends (between silent letters and affixes), because my girls had a really rough time hearing the separate sounds (let me know if you want my comprehensive list of consonant blends).  

ETA: I also added in a misc color, because in DDbD my middle was constantly misusing colors (marking as a suffix, say, something that wasn't a suffix, because she felt that it was worth highlighting, but it didn't fit into any category, so she'd (mis)use whatever category she thought was closest), so I gave her a color to use specially for marking things that weren't in a category but that she wanted to highlight to help her remember.

~*~

Just to be complete, I incorporated cursive writing into my teaching of spelling, and I think the cursive aspect was very helpful for my girls. Learning cursive was hard for them, especially for my oldest - I basically ran them, as fluent readers, through the equivalent of a cursive-first spell-to-read approach over the course of a year, right back through the phonics book starting at the beginning - but the connections made were very helpful.  I've read that to read cursive you have to be able to read in syllables, not individual letters or phonograms; and to write in cursive you have to be able to spell by syllables, not by individual letters or phonograms.  Oldest dd couldn't do that at all when we started, but by the end of spelling through first the phonograms (as she learned new strokes and new letters, I had her practice every phonogram that contained the letters she'd learnt) and then the first 2,000 words in our phonics book (arranged by phonics pattern) - she could.

This was in direct contradiction to SYS, btw (lol).  They are hardcore practice-spelling-in-print-only, with the idea that it helps to imprint the visual image of the word when there's consistency between book fonts and handwriting fonts.  I don't disagree with them, actually, but since I have kids with excellent visual memories and horrible phonemic awareness, I'm constantly trying to find ways to force them to use their ears.  And the visual disruption different fonts provide forces them to think through the word phonetically, instead of just relying on their visual memories.

Edited May 18, 2020 by forty-two