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My son's nurse is anti-vax


sassenach
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On 5/16/2020 at 8:31 AM, Ktgrok said:

The scientists working on this are in my understanding not the ones who want "norma" asap. 

Yes. 

I wonder about this, but it seems they are aware of and addressing these issues. This article touches on how at least one place is working to avoid that. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0323-4

A lot of places are doing that - the idea is to be producing now, so that if it does work and get the green light, it is ready to go. If it doesn't, these companies will take a hit. But they don't decide if the vaccine is approved or not. 

That is usually my approach, but given that it will be difficult to avoid infection for that long, and there is very little known about the virus either, I think the not as well known vaccine will be, to many, better than a not well known virus. 

But that's true no matter how long it is out. Quality control isn't really dependent on how recent the vaccine is. 

I mostly answered Martha, above, about these concerns.  But the one thing I forgot to mention in my response to her is that a shoddy (or dishonest, in the case of the company I worked for) QC department will also be detected by industry experts over a longer period of time, as problems become obvious at the user-level.  So this is just a nice way of saying I don't want to be the guinea pig for a vaccine company that ramped up production faster than they could handle in order to grab the dollar. 

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41 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

The things you mentioned are definite concerns, and yes they worry me; I am assuming these problems are industry-wide, even though I only worked for 1 vaccine company.  When I consider a vaccine, I try to balance the benefits of the vaccine with those issues.  But four things buffer those worries for me with a more long-standing vaccine:  1)  From working in the industry, I know problems tend to come in batches.  IOW, a problem with a vaccine is usually not a multi-year issue, but more like months until the problem gets worked out, 2) Production and QC issues tend to be greatest at starting points and ramp-up points until the company gets their groove going, much like take-offs and landings are riskiest for flyers (especially issues with contamination in the cell culture lines used in QC), 3) Longer-term production problems tend to generate a "buzz" in the industry that trickles down to those who are listening, and 4) The wait also gives me time to look at data and consider the ramifications of any side effects.  So, not a perfect way to make a vaccine decision, for sure, but these are things that can reduce risk closer to my personal tolerance level.  

I actually do get this, and tend to be a late adopter for vaccines in some ways. My kids didn't get the rotovirus vaccine, due to issues, for instance. 

But..we balanced that with the idea that they were not at high risk to catch that illness due to various circumstances. With Covid19, that risk assessment shifts GREATLY, because instead of comparing a new vaccine to a virus we know a lot about and know how to avoid and that my family doesn't have high risk factors for, we instead are looking at comparing a new vaccine to a virus we know very little about (basically, an untested virus, lol) and that we are not good at protecting ourselves from and that we would be fairly likely to catch and that some of our family has even higher than normal chances of having serious side effects from. Given that, the balance changes.

And that will obviously be different for everyone. Someone in an area with hardly and cases, say a state with a few across the whole state, and people that work from home mostly and don't have risk factors will have a different risk/benefit analysis than my family in a higher count state, in a tourist area for international tourism once things open up, with family members who are higher risk, with a husband that at some point will be back at large international conferences and flying, etc. 

But yeah, for me, it is important to remember the vaccine is new, but so is the virus. I have to decide which one to trust, basically. At this point, give me the vaccine. 

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I know doctors and nurses who say they will not get the fast tracked vaccination when it comes out. In fact, I do not know anyone who is willing to get it. I do not know tons of medical people, but the ones I know, medical doctors and nurses, and two cousins who work for the CDC, and none of them plan to get any fast tracked vaccination when it comes out.  These are not blanket anti-vax people. These are people who are just against fast tracked vaccination people.

Edited by Janeway
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On 5/15/2020 at 5:14 PM, StellaM said:

Anti-vax nurse?

Hard no.

Nurses here aren't allowed to work without having every single vaccination under the sun (I assume there are medical exemptions but not sure), including the flu shot. 

That's as it should be, for their own health, and for the health of their patients. 

 

 

 

Ddil is a nurse and dss is a firefighter/paramedic. Both have to get all vaccinations as a requirement of their jobs, including the flu vaccine every year. I'm sure if/when a Covid-19 vaccine becomes available that too will be required. The only way to refuse is to have a medical reason, with proof, and that affects what they would be able to do on the job.

On 5/15/2020 at 5:11 PM, Dreamergal said:

I have the BCG vaccine, the one time I had a flu vaccine, I go the flu. I cannot cite any scientific evidence except for my anecdotal one. So I do not get the flu vaccine. 

You didn't get the flu from the vaccine. The flu shot takes 2 weeks to become fully effective. You CANNOT get the flu from the vaccine. If you got the flu after getting the vaccine, it means you had already been exposed to the flu. That's why it's important to get the vaccine as early in flu season as possible. The longer you wait, the more likely you'll be exposed to the flu and get it even if you get vaccinated.

Edited by Lady Florida.
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2 hours ago, Janeway said:

I know doctors and nurses who say they will not get the fast tracked vaccination when it comes out. In fact, I do not know anyone who is willing to get it. I do not know tons of medical people, but the ones I know, medical doctors and nurses, and two cousins who work for the CDC, and none of them plan to get any fast tracked vaccination when it comes out.  These are not blanket anti-vax people. These are people who are just against fast tracked vaccination people.

Which makes me wonder about what happens if a vaccine is out next spring (or even in the next 18-24 months) and mandated for medical professionals, law enforcement, teachers, grocery workers, etc.???  The margin for acceptable medical exemptions are extremely narrow for vaccines. There might be a significant amount of people changing career fields or being forced to take a biologic in order to eat. Doesn't the Nuremberg Code cover this?

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11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I actually do get this, and tend to be a late adopter for vaccines in some ways. My kids didn't get the rotovirus vaccine, due to issues, for instance. 

But..we balanced that with the idea that they were not at high risk to catch that illness due to various circumstances. With Covid19, that risk assessment shifts GREATLY, because instead of comparing a new vaccine to a virus we know a lot about and know how to avoid and that my family doesn't have high risk factors for, we instead are looking at comparing a new vaccine to a virus we know very little about (basically, an untested virus, lol) and that we are not good at protecting ourselves from and that we would be fairly likely to catch and that some of our family has even higher than normal chances of having serious side effects from. Given that, the balance changes.

And that will obviously be different for everyone. Someone in an area with hardly and cases, say a state with a few across the whole state, and people that work from home mostly and don't have risk factors will have a different risk/benefit analysis than my family in a higher count state, in a tourist area for international tourism once things open up, with family members who are higher risk, with a husband that at some point will be back at large international conferences and flying, etc. 

But yeah, for me, it is important to remember the vaccine is new, but so is the virus. I have to decide which one to trust, basically. At this point, give me the vaccine. 

I intend to take the vaccine, but I won't be an early adopter; I prefer someone else be the guinea pig on this one and my comfort level is more with the disease than with the vaccine.  Which I suppose is odd considering my family is vax'd against everything and then even more obscure diseases, as well.  But I am concerned about the rush job on this one; a CDC employee discussed the rush job on this today and mentioned the trade-off between speed and safety, which brought back my anxiety regarding shoddy QC methods.  But I can certainly understand a different family with an emphasis on different priorities.

Edited by Reefgazer
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9 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

Ddil is a nurse and dss is a firefighter/paramedic. Both have to get all vaccinations as a requirement of their jobs, including the flu vaccine every year. I'm sure if/when a Covid-19 vaccine becomes available that too will be required. The only way to refuse is to have a medical reason, with proof, and that affects what they would be able to do on the job.

You didn't get the flu from the vaccine. The flu shot takes 2 weeks to become fully effective. You CANNOT get the flu from the vaccine. If you got the flu after getting the vaccine, it means you had already been exposed to the flu. That's why it's important to get the vaccine as early in flu season as possible. The longer you wait, the more likely you'll be exposed to the flu and get it even if you get vaccinated.

If she got one of the original nasal spray flu vaxxes when they came out years ago, yes, she could have acquired it from that.  DH got it that way, and his doc specifically blamed that nasal vax and will only administer the injection vax for him now.

Edited by Reefgazer
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7 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Which makes me wonder about what happens if a vaccine is out next spring (or even in the next 18-24 months) and mandated for medical professionals, law enforcement, teachers, grocery workers, etc.???  The margin for acceptable medical exemptions are extremely narrow for vaccines. There might be a significant amount of people changing career fields or being forced to take a biologic in order to eat. Doesn't the Nuremberg Code cover this?

This was a huge issue with the Swine flue vaccine in 1976 (1977?) that was pulled quickly off the market because it had a high rate of GB syndrome.  The military pushed for its fast tracking and it did not have adequate safety testing and had a high rate of serious complications.  And the military was forced to get it, essentially turning them into the guinea pigs for that vax.

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13 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

I intend to take the vaccine, but I won't be an early adopter; I prefer someone else be the guinea pig on this one and my comfort level is more with the disease than with the vaccine.  Which I suppose is odd considering my family is vax'd against everything and then even more obscure diseases, as well.  But I am concerned about the rush job on this one; a CDC employee discussed the rush job on this today and mentioned the trade-off between speed and safety, which brought back my anxiety regarding shoddy QC methods.  But I can certainly understand a different family with an emphasis on different priorities.

 

We won't be early adopters, either.  I'm very pro-vaccine, but I want to see how real people respond over time.  

I have a sister and an aunt that are immunologists, and both said they'd be waiting 6 months after a vaccine release before getting it.  I was surprised they would only wait 6 months; I thought they'd want to wait a year.  I'll have to ask them why 6 months is their magic number. 

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2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

We won't be early adopters, either.  I'm very pro-vaccine, but I want to see how real people respond over time.  

I have a sister and an aunt that are immunologists, and both said they'd be waiting 6 months after a vaccine release before getting it.  I was surprised they would only wait 6 months; I thought they'd want to wait a year.  I'll have to ask them why 6 months is their magic number. 

I measure my comfort waiting period in multiple years, not multiple months, LOL.

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