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Wading through info that conflicts... COVID related..


PrincessMommy
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Honestly, my head is spinning.  It seems like we can find data and experts to support whatever we think about this pandemic. 

I'm downright frustrated and annoyed by the overload of information and the judgement that comes from those who disagree.... I'm hearing people say those that disagree with them are either selfish, uneducated Neanderthals or Fearmongerers who want to take away our civil liberties -(in the US and depending on the side they take).  It's like there's no middle ground and so much judging of "the other".  No one can politely disagree and give their own information.   Sorry ladies, I'm seeing it here too..  

Anyway, this came across my feed. 

Masks 4 All Not Based on Sound Data by two Drs. who specialize in respiratory issues (one specifically specializes in respiratory protection).  So, I feel like they are trustworthy.  But I also thought the Prof who produced the  Masks4All videos was trustworthy.  Ugh.  This is so frustrating. 

What says the hive??   How are you wading through the information and not allowing yourself to be caught in an echo chamber?  

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8 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Masks 4 All Not Based on Sound Data by two Drs. who specialize in respiratory issues (one specifically specializes in respiratory protection).  So, I feel like they are trustworthy.  But I also thought the Prof who produced the  Masks4All videos was trustworthy.  Ugh.  This is so frustrating. 

I’d say that a huge part of the problem is that articles like this contradict THEMSELVES right in the same place, in between a million caveats that render their conclusion useless.

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Just now, Carrie12345 said:

I’d say that a huge part of the problem is that articles like this contradict THEMSELVES right in the same place, in between a million caveats that render their conclusion useless.

From what I read - homemade masks and ill-fitting surgical masks are useless.  But if we all want to buy a well fitting respirator-  then that's good.  How is that even realistic for the average American? 

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From what I've read, the material matters in the homemade masks. If made with 100% tightly woven cotton, fitted well, and worn properly (nose, math, a few inches on the side of the face) then they are effective & better than not wearing anything. Loose bandannas, not so much. If you can see through the material, it's not tightly woven. The mask will keep your sneezes from going all over the place.

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Not just about the mask topic, but many things about this whole business.  My approach is to keep an open mind, listen, ask questions, wait for more info.  And accepting a lot more uncertainty than I usually like.

Most of the time my life choices don't depend on deciding one side is right and the other side is wrong.

I have questioned things (on all sides), and I don't understand why that is so offensive.  My typing something on a screen (to be read by educated, sane humans) is not the same as injecting someone with virus.

I will say I think it is a good thing people are coming at this from different directions, because that is the only thing that forces people to question themselves - the only way real progress against anything will be made.  I don't like everything I hear, but it's really better than a vacuum.

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I think a lot of the problem is that the virus is so new and unpredictable, that even the experts aren't always sure of the best recommendations. Like at the beginning I think the CDC said not to wear masks at all, because the only useful ones are medical-grade and those are needed by medical professionals. But then they turn around say something is better than nothing. That may be based on new information, but it's still confusing. And then people seize on the inconsistencies to rationalize their point of view, whatever that is. 

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8 minutes ago, SKL said:

Not just about the mask topic, but many things about this whole business.  My approach is to keep an open mind, listen, ask questions, wait for more info.  And accepting a lot more uncertainty than I usually like.

Most of the time my life choices don't depend on deciding one side is right and the other side is wrong.

I have questioned things (on all sides), and I don't understand why that is so offensive.  My typing something on a screen (to be read by educated, sane humans) is not the same as injecting someone with virus.

I will say I think it is a good thing people are coming at this from different directions, because that is the only thing that forces people to question themselves - the only way real progress against anything will be made.  I don't like everything I hear, but it's really better than a vacuum.

I wanted to highlight all of what you said LOL.. But yes... so much.  It's not just masks it's all of it.  Pick a topic related to Covid and you'll find very polemic ideas.

I also don't understand why it is offensive to disagree.

Final bolded part -  YES!! This is how science and research is supposed to happen.  You don't dismiss someone whose findings are different.  You go back and look at the data again.  The problem is that social media (and the WTM -myself included)  is filled with armchair scientists who don't seem to know how to disagree appropriately.   Like I said earlier, we're being told that you either want to kill grandma (or the latest - "you want to kill grandma so you can go to the mall") or you want to kill civil liberties. You cannot have a conversation when those are your choices.  It squelches and open communication.

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12 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I think a lot of the problem is that the virus is so new and unpredictable, that even the experts aren't always sure of the best recommendations. Like at the beginning I think the CDC said not to wear masks at all, because the only useful ones are medical-grade and those are needed by medical professionals. But then they turn around say something is better than nothing. That may be based on new information, but it's still confusing. And then people seize on the inconsistencies to rationalize their point of view, whatever that is. 

I agree completely.  But, I feel like people have *decided* what is right and they kill the messenger when it disagrees with what they believe or what they read 2 weeks ago.   

The flip flopping by the gov't and scientists is very frustrating too. 

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For my family, I have decided to see on the most conservative side when I'm reading scientific data & opinion. If something is doable for us without a lot of $$ and trouble, I do it.

So, masks may protect others from my germs, so I wear one. (Other adults in my family may decide differently, but I make masks available for everyone.)

I believe the virus is able to aerolize, so I'm a believer in wearing masks to help lower someone else's risk. I also wipe down groceries & let my mail sit for a day. I wash my hands a lot because I touch my face a lot. I pass around hand sanitizer. 

Vitamin D may help outcomes be better, so I take extra & my kids can take extra or spend time in the sun during prime VitD-making hours (which my area doesn't have right now).

Exercising, eating smart, etc. Should lower our risk. So, we do that.

Social distancing & staying at home can help lower the R0 (R naught), so we do that to do our part.

I can't make a decision for someone else, but I can try to educate them with what might help, with the newest info on what new symptoms have been identified (rash, loss of smell) or how to self-monitor (pulse oximeter).

Do my neighbors do all those things? Nope. Should they be demonized? Nope.

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56 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I wanted to highlight all of what you said LOL.. But yes... so much.  It's not just masks it's all of it.  Pick a topic related to Covid and you'll find very polemic ideas.

I also don't understand why it is offensive to disagree.

Final bolded part -  YES!! This is how science and research is supposed to happen.  You don't dismiss someone whose findings are different.  You go back and look at the data again.  The problem is that social media (and the WTM -myself included)  is filled with armchair scientists who don't seem to know how to disagree appropriately.   Like I said earlier, we're being told that you either want to kill grandma (or the latest - "you want to kill grandma so you can go to the mall") or you want to kill civil liberties. You cannot have a conversation when those are your choices.  It squelches and open communication.

It's not just Covid, of course. Too many have been "taught" by social media and extremist opinion media personalities that one must either be burning hot or ice cold about any issue. Extreme right or extreme left. There seems to be little/no space anywhere for the centrists, the middle-of-the-road opinion. In my own life I'm trying when possible to reclaim that space, as it's often my home territory.

I try to look at as much evidence as I can, weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. As far as masks--it seems to me that the preponderance of evidence from trustworthy sources is that masks probably help at least some. The more people who wear them the more helpful they will be. Wearing a mask isn't a harmful or hard thing for us (speaking of my own family) to do. So we do it. Pretty much "can't hurt, might help." Now obviously the "can't hurt" part assumes that one has enough intelligence and/or common sense to wear a mask correctly and to remove and handle it correctly after having worn it. But none of that is difficult.

I try to apply the above approach to many things and issues. It requires thinking for oneself and taking the time and making the effort to do some research. I think most people here do that, and I can respect those opinions even when they differ from my own. But we all encounter people (here sometimes, but more often IRL) who make decisions based on whims or unreliable sources, and people who just want to be contrarian. I have little/no respect for those people.

Edited by Pawz4me
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This article seems to indicate that the fabric makes a difference, and that they are finding certain fabric combinations can be effective, if the mask is worn correctly and tight fitting.  

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/30/metro/making-your-own-mask-researchers-say-some-fabrics-can-filter-nearly-well-an-n95/

 

ETA: study link: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252

Edited by cintinative
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1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

From what I read - homemade masks and ill-fitting surgical masks are useless. 

This is from their own article:

"There is some evidence that surgical masks can be effective at reducing overall particle emission from patients who have multidrug-resistant tuberculosis,36 cystic fibrosis,34 and influenza.33 The latter found surgical masks decreased emission of large particles (larger than 5 µm) by 25-fold and small particles by threefold from flu-infected patients.33 Sung37 found a 43% reduction in respiratory viral infections in stem-cell patients when everyone, including patients, visitors, and healthcare workers, wore surgical masks."

So surgical masks are useless.... except for a massive decrease in the emissions of large particles and a large decrease in the emission of small particles, and a 43% reduction in respiratory infections if everyone wears them. Yeah, except for those things.

There was a study linked in one of these many threads that showed the droplets being emitted by someone who was talking, and then showed the droplets emitted when he held a washcloth over his mouth, and there were no visible droplets in the second case. Are cloth and surgical masks 100% effective? No, of course not. But they're better than nothing until we get to the point where the public can buy N95s again.

 

Edited by Corraleno
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I really wish the DPA would be invoked to seriously ramp up production of N95s. So much emphasis was put on increasing the number of ventilators, and we're going to have thousands more ventilators in August that may not even be needed, yet we're still dangerously short of PPE. It's one thing to tell hospitals and doctors and dentists that they can open now for elective procedures, but if they don't have PPE, that's not going to happen whether it's "allowed" or not. And having enough for the public to wear would at least mean that people who do care can at least protect themselves, since it's apparent that a large percentage of the public are not onboard with the idea of protecting others.

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36 minutes ago, kand said:

I can speak for myself that this is more emotionally charged for me because my life is at risk. It’s not like a political or theological disagreement. If you (general you) aren’t really concerned the virus is going to have a significant impact on you, it’s easier to be chill about it. If other people being nonchalant about it means you are at an increased risk of death, it’s not so easy to be chill about it. I have to rely on other people doing the right thing to help keep me healthy, and so far it’s looking like people aren’t very good about doing that. It’s hard to just shrug and say, “oh well, we disagree” when the stakes are so high. 

Mostly I think we have different opinions about how to reduce the ultimate overall death toll, which may stem from different views about whether it is realistically possible to stop the spread and end the disease before it goes around most communities.

Maybe you could try to talk yourself into believing people when they say they actually do care.  As with many other things, we don't always agree on what is the best approach to helping those we care about.  It doesn't mean the people who disagree with you = people who don't care.  And that goes for all sides of this.  As far as I can tell, nobody is "chill" about the effects of this virus.  Different people are worrying about different things at different times.  Most of the worries are valid and impact health.

When people get angry at others for having a different understanding, that does not ever open the others' minds to listening.  If anything, it closes them even more.

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35 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I guess that's an example of information overload resulting in conflicting information, because I thought that had been done?

I agree.  I'm confused by @Corraleno 's post.   Maybe it depends on where you live. ---  which is another problem - at least for the US.  It's so big and varied.  What is needed for NY or FL is very different than what's needed in ND or WY.  

 

43 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I really wish the DPA would be invoked to seriously ramp up production of N95s. So much emphasis was put on increasing the number of ventilators, and we're going to have thousands more ventilators in August that may not even be needed, yet we're still dangerously short of PPE. It's one thing to tell hospitals and doctors and dentists that they can open now for elective procedures, but if they don't have PPE, that's not going to happen whether it's "allowed" or not. And having enough for the public to wear would at least mean that people who do care can at least protect themselves, since it's apparent that a large percentage of the public are not onboard with the idea of protecting others.

What do you mean by this?  How can we have a conversation when you've made a judgement call such as this?

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1 hour ago, kand said:

Take the choir group in Washington State. They took precautions—no one with signs of illness, hand sanitizer at door, spaced apart, no one touched anyone else. Still, 45 of 60 people at the practice contracted it, and two of those died.

:blink: Somebody thought it was a good idea right now to get a group of people together and breathe deeply and all exhale and inhale in the same room??? Sorry, I'm just flabbergasted why someone thought that was ok or that hand sanitizer made it safe. 

I'm with @HeighHo that our country still has some issues with germ theory and how they understand germs. And yes, I think poverty and a lower education level, lower understanding of germ theory is why someone would think it was ok to come right up to me hacking so long as they have a dinky, low percentage mask on. Pick your not so nice explanation, but yeah that was probably the explanation.

2 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

It seems like we can find data and experts to support whatever we think about this pandemic.

Fwiw, I think at some point people are going to go by how they *feel* about this, not strictly data. Data is probably driving how you feel, but you also have a gut sense based on your total knowledge here. Like do you know people who've gotten sick, urban/metro or more isolated, pre-existing health conditions, your overall anxiety level about what is going on, etc. And this is just me, but I think at some point it's ok to say you're complying with the laws (not opinions but laws) of your state and your gut. You could be right or could be wrong, but I think if you violate your feelings on this, like not wearing a mask if you feel you would prefer to, then that's an issue. 

It's still interesting to me how different the vibe is in my very urban contacts vs. more rural. These are questions and answers that might be more regional rather than the same for a whole state. 

 

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5. There are some really dumb people out there (hello, consuming fish tank cleaner?!?!?) and while sometimes that means that people need to watch what they say, it also means that sometimes, the reports fall all over themselves with eleventy billion caveats and the real information gets jumbled up and lost.  

 

I've read that the wife has been arrested for killing her husband:

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/woman-who-blamed-trump-after-giving-her-husband-fish-tank-cleaner-now-under-investigation-for-murder/

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49 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I guess that's an example of information overload resulting in conflicting information, because I thought that had been done?

 

5 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I agree.  I'm confused by @Corraleno 's post


My understanding is that Trump ordered US companies not to sell masks to anyone but the US (hence the US seizures of masks made in 3M factories in China that were being shipped to France and Germany), but the DPA has not been used to compel companies to retool for manufacturing N95s in order to increase actual production, versus controlling sales. Whereas with ventilators, General Motors & Ford have been compelled to produce those in order to increase actual supply. The US normally manufactures around a billion N95 masks per year, and we need at least 7 billion, and I don't see any measures being take to ensure we can get that many. Basically states, cities, and individual hospitals are still bidding against each other to get what they need from China and other countries (and then hide them so they aren't seized by the Feds), and there doesn't seem to be a plan in place to guarantee adequate supply the way we did with ventilators.

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Well, I'm just trying to educate myself as much as possible with information from all angles, keep a humble and open mind, and listen to those experts who keep reiterating, "There is so much we still have to learn about this virus." That means I try not to be dogmatic and know-it-all when I share information I have read. And I'm generally erring on the side of caution because..."There is so much we still have to learn about this virus."

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15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

:blink: Somebody thought it was a good idea right now to get a group of people together and breathe deeply and all exhale and inhale in the same room??? Sorry, I'm just flabbergasted why someone thought that was ok or that hand sanitizer made it safe. 

I'm with @HeighHo that our country still has some issues with germ theory and how they understand germs. And yes, I think poverty and a lower education level, lower understanding of germ theory is why someone would think it was ok to come right up to me hacking so long as they have a dinky, low percentage mask on. Pick your not so nice explanation, but yeah that was probably the explanation.

 

 

It was before the shut downs.

Even now in this thread people are sort of implying that the main issue is hand washing and sanitizer, not breathing it in.

People will be gathering a lot more in coming days, and always have been at grocery stores, inhaling and exhaling. Anyone going in public is dealing with some variation of that. None of those people were symptomatic - at all. So yeah.....focusing on the hacking person isn't going to fix this. We've done ourselves a huge disservice focusing on just hand washing, sanitizer, and keeping sick people home. It will help, but so will other things like distance, masks, etc. 

Non sick people are spreading this,w ithout touching each other, with sanitizer. 

 

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I agree, it is hard to find good, solid information.  I just saw something that the CDC now reclassified many deaths as NOT Covid that had previously been classified as a covid death....thereby changing the numbers greatly.

With lack of testing and tests that might not be accurate due to technique of getting that deep nasal swab it is hard to know true numbers.

Is it all over, many more sick than we know, higher transmission rates but lower death rates (because 10 times as many people really have/had it) or is it even more contagious than we realize and responsible for more deaths?

I agree as well, that it is hard to get a non polarized discussion even on this board.  

I also wonder if there are any clear numbers about how many protesters from the grid lock protest in Michigan a few weeks ago (not the guys with guns one last week) got sick due to being out in public with others.  One side said they were not at risk at all and the other side said they were dooming all of Michigan to a horrible outbreak.   

 

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6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

And my understanding was that it was used for masks production as well as sales.  

I cannot find a single article that says the DPA was used to force any company to retool to make masks, only that they invoked the clause that says the US has the right to buy all masks produced by US companies:

 

"The medical device DPA order covers General Electric, Hill-Rom Holdings, Medtronic, ResMed, Phillips and Vyaire Medical, authorizing HHS Secretary Alex Azar to “facilitate the supply of materials to the [companies] for the production of ventilators,” according to a White House statement. Trump said the order will help the companies “overcome obstacles of the supply chain that threaten the rapid supply of ventilators." 

Additionally, the president said he signed “an element of the [DPA] against 3M.” That order authorizes the head of FEMA to acquire however many N95 face masks from the company he deems necessary for the crisis. And the administration indicated Thursday that more DPA orders could come soon, possibly related to black market activities."   Article here

"Trump directed heads of the Homeland Security Department and Federal Emergency Management Agency to use their authority under the 1950 Defense Production Act to acquire the “appropriate” number of N95 respirators from 3M and any of its affiliates."    Article here

 

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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am not seeing this implication?  What do you think was said that implies that?

 

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

  The NYC teevee stations are broadcasting basic hygiene instructions...how to wash hands, how to cover mouth when sneezing and coughing.  One wonders how much of the community spread is just basic hygiene

 

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3 hours ago, SKL said:

I will say I think it is a good thing people are coming at this from different directions, because that is the only thing that forces people to question themselves - the only way real progress against anything will be made.  I don't like everything I hear, but it's really better than a vacuum.

Absolutely!

I do think many, maybe most, people are uncomfortable with gray areas. It's comforting to know the "rules", and there's a tendency to cling doggedly to any semblance of structure.

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3 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I think a lot of the problem is that the virus is so new and unpredictable, that even the experts aren't always sure of the best recommendations. Like at the beginning I think the CDC said not to wear masks at all, because the only useful ones are medical-grade and those are needed by medical professionals. But then they turn around say something is better than nothing. That may be based on new information, but it's still confusing. And then people seize on the inconsistencies to rationalize their point of view, whatever that is. 

 People need to remember too that the professionals releasing these recs are just...people. Educated, dedicated, and flawed. There are thousands of people in various positions at the CDC and they don't all agree with each other. The professional making policy recs for our city is a social worker with an MPH.

Edited by GoodGrief
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16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

:blink: Somebody thought it was a good idea right now to get a group of people together and breathe deeply and all exhale and inhale in the same room??? Sorry, I'm just flabbergasted why someone thought that was ok or that hand sanitizer made it safe. 

I'm with @HeighHo that our country still has some issues with germ theory and how they understand germs. And yes, I think poverty and a lower education level, lower understanding of germ theory is why someone would think it was ok to come right up to me hacking so long as they have a dinky, low percentage mask on. Pick your not so nice explanation, but yeah that was probably the explanation.

Fwiw, I think at some point people are going to go by how they *feel* about this, not strictly data. Data is probably driving how you feel, but you also have a gut sense based on your total knowledge here. Like do you know people who've gotten sick, urban/metro or more isolated, pre-existing health conditions, your overall anxiety level about what is going on, etc. And this is just me, but I think at some point it's ok to say you're complying with the laws (not opinions but laws) of your state and your gut. You could be right or could be wrong, but I think if you violate your feelings on this, like not wearing a mask if you feel you would prefer to, then that's an issue. 

It's still interesting to me how different the vibe is in my very urban contacts vs. more rural. These are questions and answers that might be more regional rather than the same for a whole state. 

 

This happened on March 6th.    

I agree that all of our own personal stories are driving our feelings.  We can't divorce our own experiences from data.  I think what I find frustrating is the lack of empathy for "the other".   Also, I am personally seeing elitist attitudes in my metro DC area against those who are rural/working class.  I find it upsetting and disconcerting.  

I also agree that solutions will (should?) be different depending on where you are located.  That's why I would prefer it to be done state by state (even county by county) because America has such a diverse population density and need.  

 

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33 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Well, I'm just trying to educate myself as much as possible with information from all angles, keep a humble and open mind, and listen to those experts who keep reiterating, "There is so much we still have to learn about this virus." That means I try not to be dogmatic and know-it-all when I share information I have read. And I'm generally erring on the side of caution because..."There is so much we still have to learn about this virus."

This is how I have tried to proceed.  Although, from reading some people's posts, I'm probably not cautious enough (for example: I don't wipe down my groceries or mail).

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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Here's a release from 4/21 that gives more details regarding domestic mask production

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2158351/dod-details-133-million-defense-production-act-title-3-covid-19-project/

Now, I actually had to google "$133 million title 3 DPA mask production" to get that one to come up.  Which is kinda of a weird way to search for something.  I suppose that various search engine analytics probably play a factor.  

Thanks for that link, I hadn't seen that. It looks like they are paying existing mask manufacturers to increases production at existing plants. But if the numbers in that article are correct, they will only be increasing production by ~450 million masks per year, which doesn't come close to providing what we are projected to need just for healthcare workers (3.5+ billion), let alone other workers or the public. The problem with N95 masks is that, unlike ventilators, they are disposable, so we not only need to get manufacturing up to the level we need, we need to keep it there.

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23 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok, I don't know what happened to the quotes lol.

But the post you quoted was said before the comment was made about the choir.  That comment wasn't referencing the choir and was specifically referencing the poster's local news media giving basic hygiene instructions.

I didn't say it was about the choir post. But the choir was a known story, as were other cases of likely airborne transmission, over a month ago. In general, there has been a lot in the media, journals, etc saying that this can be spread via the air. Which is why saying it may just be an issue of basic hygiene doesn't make sense to me. 

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1 minute ago, PrincessMommy said:

Well, I'm just trying to educate myself as much as possible with information from all angles, keep a humble and open mind, and listen to those experts who keep reiterating, "There is so much we still have to learn about this virus." That means I try not to be dogmatic and know-it-all when I share information I have read. And I'm generally erring on the side of caution because..."There is so much we still have to learn about this virus."

1 minute ago, PrincessMommy said:

This is how I have tried to proceed.  Although, from reading some people's posts, I'm probably not cautious enough (for example: I don't wipe down my groceries or mail).

Yeah, I mean erring on the side of caution in my locale, which means that I'm not running around all over town basically ignoring social distancing reco's, and I'm not dropping by to visit the older people "stuck at home". I'm not taking the precautions you mentioned either, because that is a level I do not have time or energy to sustain (I have still been working at the office most days). I'm trying to find a balance the best I can, and trying to make sure I'm not derisive or mocking toward others. It's not easy to not shake my head sometimes, but the truth is, I don't really know how it is all going to fall out either.

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3 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

Honestly, my head is spinning.  It seems like we can find data and experts to support whatever we think about this pandemic. 

I'm downright frustrated and annoyed by the overload of information and the judgement that comes from those who disagree.... I'm hearing people say those that disagree with them are either selfish, uneducated Neanderthals or Fearmongerers who want to take away our civil liberties -(in the US and depending on the side they take).  It's like there's no middle ground and so much judging of "the other".  No one can politely disagree and give their own information.   Sorry ladies, I'm seeing it here too..  

Anyway, this came across my feed. 

Masks 4 All Not Based on Sound Data by two Drs. who specialize in respiratory issues (one specifically specializes in respiratory protection).  So, I feel like they are trustworthy.  But I also thought the Prof who produced the  Masks4All videos was trustworthy.  Ugh.  This is so frustrating. 

What says the hive??   How are you wading through the information and not allowing yourself to be caught in an echo chamber?  

 

I don’t find it particularly contradictory.

1) We don’t know for sure what helps because this is a novel virus, and also a mutating one.

2) we believe that medical masks (various types) are helpful for medical workers and that medical workers and others particularly at risk should get first dibs on limited supplies. 

3) as with medical workers where masks probably help, that is also probably true for general public if used properly and if still Physically Distancing as much as possible .  Especially helpful if both people are wearing a mask.

4) Fabric masks have a wide range of ability at stopping virus and nanoparticles in tests.   They also can help remind people not to touch mucus membranes. 

If making or buying a cloth mask one should aim for a design that fits the individual who will wear it well and is likely good at stopping virus based on design tests, but still allows breathing.

5) we acknowledge that using a mask incorrectly  such as down on chin will likely render it useless.  We acknowledge that people can do dumb things.  We acknowledge that things can’t stay shut down for the next two years so that using what we can to help protect is needed.  We acknowledge that eyes are also mucus membranes and that glasses/goggles may help.

 

...

In short masks may only give a partial percentage of improvement in protecting from viral transmission. But we do need to move to reopening and masks should help as an added safety measure—not a total solution.

 

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53 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It happened like a month ago or so....it might have even been before the shut downs started.  

Yeah, I think this was quite early on and maybe the individuals didn't even think the bug was in their community at all.

Back on March 2 I had to attend an event that involved a lot of hand shaking followed by eating with hands.  There was awareness about this virus, but no cases had been found in the local community, and people just felt like they had to shake hands kuz that's what people at those events do.  This was at the same time as the AIPAC meeting where tons of people caught the virus.  It was on our radar as in we avoided touching my friend's elderly parents, but it wasn't like today.

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

:blink: Somebody thought it was a good idea right now to get a group of people together and breathe deeply and all exhale and inhale in the same room??? Sorry, I'm just flabbergasted why someone thought that was ok or that hand sanitizer made it safe. 

It happened about a week before the shut-downs started, waaay back on March 6th, I think when there were supposedly almost no cases in Washington (where it happened), and this was in a more rural area where they felt safe, and everyone was told as long as they washed their hands they'd be fine.

So, on its face a much, much safer situation than all the states that are now re-opening, that have way more cases, and many of which are reopening gyms (hello, breathing deeply and inhaling and exhaling in the same room - apparently not everyone thinks this is a bad idea, even now :blink:).

Seems to me a lot of this gets driven by superspreaders, of which it seems there was one in that choir rehearsal.  Things seem to be going relatively okay, until they're not.  And the superspreaders seem to be asymptomatic carriers, as this choir one was, the woman in the church in South Korea, the Biogen conference...  Someone just said if this were so bad we'd have more cases in Walmarts.  Well, we seem to have just had a superspreader in a local Walmart.  81 cases in the one store in the past week.  

Edited by Matryoshka
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Honestly, before this virus took hold, it never would have occurred to me that singing in a choir could be dangerous.  I mean if that was common knowledge, there wouldn't be choirs, would there?  Ever seen a choir sing with their faces masked?

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52 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I am personally seeing elitist attitudes in my metro DC area against those who are rural/working class.

I'm curious, what are you seeing? It's not surprising, but I just wonder. I live in one of those more rural/working class areas adjacent to a $$ big city, and I'm seeing hints at those kinds of splits on FB. And some of it's logical. If you're making decisions and your job isn't on the line, your perspective is really different from someone whose livelihood is about to go down the toilet, costing them everything they ever worked for.

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37 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, we seem to have just had a superspreader in a local Walmart.  81 cases in the one store in the past week.  

Makes sense it can happen.

37 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

reopening gyms

That will be interesting to see what our state does. Our gyms are split between the young/active and the elderly. A LOT of elderly come. So even having senior hours won't reduce traffic, because those will be highly social, highly patronized times. I'm sure our Y, etc. are thinking that out pretty hard. They keep sending around emails begging people not to cancel their memberships, etc. 

I don't know my own comfort with that. I'm probably going to go with my gut, as I suggested to Princess Mommy. I'll probably go at a low traffic time, keep distance, clean hands/equipment. I really need to be back in the gym, at least for the steam room. The intensity of the steam room is really good for my sensory, calms it down. I haven't been in one since February, and I'm hurting. I ran today, so that was good. I have weights too. So it's not like I can't do anything. But I don't have a steam room, sigh. 

So yeah, I think people will moderate, thinking about what they can continue to do at home, and go in just for what they need to, whatever is irreplaceable. That would be my guess. I think they'll naturally go slowly. But we'll see. Ours are not open yet, nor have I heard discussion of it.

Edited by PeterPan
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6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm curious, what are you seeing? It's not surprising, but I just wonder. I live in one of those more rural/working class areas adjacent to a $$ big city, and I'm seeing hints at those kinds of splits on FB. And some of it's logical. If you're making decisions and your job isn't on the line, your perspective is really different from someone whose livelihood is about to go down the toilet, costing them everything they ever worked for.

Yes.  Many working class people do ARE the very essential workers that are allowing others to shelter at home but still have delivery, groceries, take out food, gas, etc.

Edited by Ottakee
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21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Makes sense it can happen.

That will be interesting to see what our state does. Our gyms are split between the young/active and the elderly. A LOT of elderly come. So even having senior hours won't reduce traffic, because those will be highly social, highly patronized times. I'm sure our Y, etc. are thinking that out pretty hard. They keep sending around emails begging people not to cancel their memberships, etc. 

I don't know my own comfort with that. I'm probably going to go with my gut, as I suggested to Princess Mommy. I'll probably go at a low traffic time, keep distance, clean hands/equipment. I really need to be back in the gym, at least for the steam room. The intensity of the steam room is really good for my sensory, calms it down. I haven't been in one since February, and I'm hurting. I ran today, so that was good. I have weights too. So it's not like I can't do anything. But I don't have a steam room, sigh. 

So yeah, I think people will moderate, thinking about what they can continue to do at home, and go in just for what they need to, whatever is irreplaceable. That would be my guess. I think they'll naturally go slowly. But we'll see. Ours are not open yet, nor have I heard discussion of it.

I am really, really, really missing my gym.  But even if it were opening (it's not, I live in a hot spot), I would not be ready to go back for a while.  Yes, there are older people (including me, I'm only 55 but that isn't so super-young for this virus), young people are often more likely to be asymptomatic spreaders so 'young and healthy' is not making me rest easier, and then there are a ton of nurses that work out there too, so that could be a vector.  I kind of hate working out at home, the classes at the gym were what kept me accountable, but I'm just going to have to deal...

 

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1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

 

You are right, when you said "the main issue" I thought you meant that to be about the choir situation since you quoted a post specifically about that situation.  

 

Ah, yes, sorry for the confusion. I meant in general. 

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

It happened about a week before the shut-downs started, waaay back on March 6th, I think when there were supposedly almost no cases in Washington (where it happened), and this was in a more rural area where they felt safe, and everyone was told as long as they washed their hands they'd be fine.

So, on its face a much, much safer situation than all the states that are now re-opening, that have way more cases, and many of which are reopening gyms (hello, breathing deeply and inhaling and exhaling in the same room - apparently not everyone thinks this is a bad idea, even now :blink:).

Seems to me a lot of this gets driven by superspreaders, of which it seems there was one in that choir rehearsal.  Things seem to be going relatively okay, until they're not.  And the superspreaders seem to be asymptomatic carriers, as this choir one was, the woman in the church in South Korea, the Biogen conference...  Someone just said if this were so bad we'd have more cases in Walmarts.  Well, we seem to have just had a superspreader in a local Walmart.  81 cases in the one store in the past week.  

I am REALLY curious about the idea of superspreaders. That one study in Australia that said kids don't spread it...in that same study, the adults didn't spread it either. But we know adults DO spread it, somehow, so we kind of ignored that part. But what I'm wondering is, maybe most people in general don't spread it, but some REALLY spread it, for reasons we don't know yet. That would be fascinating. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I am really, really, really missing my gym.  But even if it were opening (it's not, I live in a hot spot), I would not be ready to go back for a while.  Yes, there are older people (including me, I'm only 55 but that isn't so super-young for this virus), young people are often more likely to be asymptomatic spreaders so 'young and healthy' is not making me rest easier, and then there are a ton of nurses that work out there too, so that could be a vector.  I kind of hate working out at home, the classes at the gym were what kept me accountable, but I'm just going to have to deal...

 

I wonder if some gyms could rent an outdoor space, open but covered or with an open tent roof, and relocate their equipment there, lock it up at night in a trailer or something.  That seems a lot safer.  It might not be great at the height of summer in certain locations, but could be good in early summer.  

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1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

I agree, it is hard to find good, solid information.  I just saw something that the CDC now reclassified many deaths as NOT Covid that had previously been classified as a covid death....thereby changing the numbers greatly.

With lack of testing and tests that might not be accurate due to technique of getting that deep nasal swab it is hard to know true numbers.

Is it all over, many more sick than we know, higher transmission rates but lower death rates (because 10 times as many people really have/had it) or is it even more contagious than we realize and responsible for more deaths?

I agree as well, that it is hard to get a non polarized discussion even on this board.  

I also wonder if there are any clear numbers about how many protesters from the grid lock protest in Michigan a few weeks ago (not the guys with guns one last week) got sick due to being out in public with others.  One side said they were not at risk at all and the other side said they were dooming all of Michigan to a horrible outbreak.   

 

I've seen this claim on social media a lot today, but I am still showing 67K+ on the CDC page. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

Maybe they are looking at provisional death counts, which states it runs 2 weeks behind. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

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4 hours ago, SKL said:

I have questioned things (on all sides), and I don't understand why that is so offensive.  My typing something on a screen (to be read by educated, sane humans) is not the same as injecting someone with virus.

+1 to the bolded. 

Poster: Article A from a trusted source says one thing, Article B from a trusted source says another. I'm wondering if . . . 

Responders: CLEARLY YOU KICK PUPPIES IN YOUR SPARE TIME AND DON'T CARE WHO DIES! 

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

:blink: Somebody thought it was a good idea right now to get a group of people together and breathe deeply and all exhale and inhale in the same room??? Sorry, I'm just flabbergasted why someone thought that was ok or that hand sanitizer made it safe. 

That was a good 9 weeks ago, or about a century in Covid years. Before schools closed and before the lockdown. 

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I didn't say it was about the choir post. But the choir was a known story, as were other cases of likely airborne transmission, over a month ago. In general, there has been a lot in the media, journals, etc saying that this can be spread via the air. Which is why saying it may just be an issue of basic hygiene doesn't make sense to me. 

I think people are including coughing and sneezing 'protocols' in the definition of basic hygiene. 

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18 minutes ago, katilac said:
1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I didn't say it was about the choir post. But the choir was a known story, as were other cases of likely airborne transmission, over a month ago. In general, there has been a lot in the media, journals, etc saying that this can be spread via the air. Which is why saying it may just be an issue of basic hygiene doesn't make sense to me. 

I think people are including coughing and sneezing 'protocols' in the definition of basic hygiene. 

 

No one in the choir had symptoms.  They apparently did not touch at all.  They said they Did keep much more physically distanced than usual. But there was apparently someone with an Asymptomatic case, who because of contact with the choir group became a “superspreader”.  

Talking is a cause of droplet and airborne transmission more than breathing which already is a cause.  Singing causes droplet and airborne spread of virus even more so than talking. 

(Germany has allowed churches to reopen, but singing is banned.)  

No coughing or sneezing is necessary to transmit SARS2. 

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4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

I don't view it as offensive because I live in a hot spot where hundreds are dying daily.   Those with poor hygeine are increasing case loads.  Millions of dollars are being poured into re-training and re-eduction as well as formulating the products this group needs to use to stop this vector.  You might want to view Gov Cuomo's thoughts on transmissability and what has to be done to keep the rate down, particularly his thoughts on the New Rochelle containment.

The choir is a seperate issue, one of the the aerosol spread and the building HVAC.

See, here we go.

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21 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Muliple people in the choir have said that no one was sneezing or coughing. 

No, no, sorry, I wasn't referring to the choir at all, I probably shouldn't have put both of those quotes in the same post.

You were talking about some people on the thread implying that washing hands is the main issue; what I meant is that their reference to basic hygiene likely referred to protocols for sneezing and coughing as well, not just washing hands and using sanitizer. Sneezing, coughing, blowing your nose, spitting - I would consider all of those matters of basic hygiene. 

Edited by katilac
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Just now, katilac said:

No, no, sorry, I wasn't referring to the choir at all, I probably shouldn't have put both of those quotes in the same post.

You were talking about some people on the thread implying that washing hands is the main issue; what I meant is that their reference to basic hygiene likely referred to protocols for sneezing and coughing, not just washing hands and using sanitizer. Sneezing, coughing, blowing your nose, spitting - I would consider all of those matters of basic hygiene. 

Right, and even people paying attention to basic hygiene can spread the virus - unless we consider breathing a matter of hygiene and something to stop doing, lol. 

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6 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

Honestly, my head is spinning.  It seems like we can find data and experts to support whatever we think about this pandemic. 

I'm downright frustrated and annoyed by the overload of information and the judgement that comes from those who disagree.... I'm hearing people say those that disagree with them are either selfish, uneducated Neanderthals or Fearmongerers who want to take away our civil liberties -(in the US and depending on the side they take).  It's like there's no middle ground and so much judging of "the other".  No one can politely disagree and give their own information.   Sorry ladies, I'm seeing it here too..  

 

 

I find this part very frustrating—along with the demonizing and utter lack of humility. Weeks ago someone on another thread said she needed to avoid FB because of the inflammatory and incorrect information. At that time, I hadn't seen anything like that on my FB feed, but, oh boy, has that changed! There are about four people I am considering hiding because the posts they share are misinformation or inflammatory blaming. This is not helpful!

I tend to steer clear of those kinds of posts, but I did comment a day or two ago, pointing out that half a chart had been photoed and shared, and if one looked at the entire chart, the numbers and message shared in the post seemed questionable. Immediately, a couple people jumped on and made all kinds of judgments and asked accusatory questions. I pointed out I wasn't expressing an opinion on policy, just citing some concerns about how the numbers from the chart were represented. Things calmed down after that, but the person did not delete the post. I can't understand when factual misinformation is pointed out, and it makes no difference.

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