Progym why or why not and what curriculum

[lulalu]

Why or why not did you pick the progym to teach writing? What are the benefits to using it? Is it too rigid for writing needs today? 

And what curriculum have you used to teach it? 

I am looking at MP Classical Composition and W&R Fables. Anyone able to compare them? Why is there an age difference between the two? Can MP be started in 3rd too? 

[almondbutterandjelly]

In 3rd grade, we used copywork from Writing with Ease.  And maybe an Evan Moor book about Sentences.  Plus a hamburger visual about structures of paragraphs/papers.  That's it.  Copywork was by far the most writing instruction.  They are so young in third grade.

[Slache]

I chose IEW because I had no idea how to teach writing and this taught me how as well as giving me many tools along the way.

I still use fun stuff along the way like NaNoWriMo, Brave Writer games and I plan to use Fantasy... something (a fiction writing resource), and OYAN, but IEW is our core.

[Whitney]

My 3rd grader used MP Intro to Comp this year and his writing has improved so much this year. It was tied to the literature he read so he was excited to be able to use those stories. 

I already have MP Fable for next year and I love how everything is broken down into manageable pieces and you practice until it becomes second nature. I feel like a 3rd grader could manage it (maybe at a slower pace) but if you look at when that would put them in the later stages of the progym I wouldn't rush it. 

[Another Lynn]

I had some of CW's materials years ago - Aesop, Homer.  I haven't tried any of the others, but for my personality and number of kids, etc, I thought the progym was unnecessarily complicated and took too long to get to final goal.  

I do think All Things Fun and Fascinating can be a nice gentle intro to writing for a 3rd grader.  I also like just simple copywork, oral narration, and some simple dictation.  Written narration could probably be started gently in 4th grade, though some children might be ready sooner.   

[purpleowl]

We started CAP Writing & Rhetoric when DD#1 was in 3rd grade. We have done basically two books per school year (about a week from finishing up book 6 now). I wasn't really looking for a progym option specifically; I was just looking for a writing program that I thought would work well for us, and it happened to be progym-based. 

I can't compare it with MP because I never really looked at that option (or if I did, it fell out of my brain, lol). I like the way W&R builds up writing skills over the course of the books we've done. I like how each chapter has some introductory exercises to get things flowing before asking the student for a longer piece of writing. I like, for the most part, the reading selections that are included. Glancing ahead, I can tell that the student going through the whole program will have a variety of ways to approach writing essays, which is great. Not every one of their essay templates is exactly how I would want to do it, but it's within the "let's talk about how else we could approach this" realm rather than the "well this is useless" realm. 😉 So while it's rigid in the sense that it says "now write an essay like this," it's also building up a toolbox of different ways to write with each book. So I think ultimately the student ends up with a great deal of flexibility in his/her writing skills.

I have de-emphasized the outlining activities in W&R. I prefer to work on outlining in other contexts. 

Oh - based on recommendations I read in old threads here, we did go through The Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever before starting W&R Fable. I did find that useful and would recommend it. I think we spent maybe a month? two months? on that one. 

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Another Lynn said:

I had some of CW's materials years ago - Aesop, Homer.  I haven't tried any of the others, but for my personality and number of kids, etc, I thought the progym was unnecessarily complicated and took too long to get to final goal.  

This is my assessment of CW's materials, as well. Teaching solid writing skills does not need to be so complicated.  It felt to me like they overly complicated simple concepts in order to make it feel like students had mastered something difficult that is really rather easy to teach in a more straightforward manner.

For 3rd grade, I am another one who believes copywork is an excellent teaching tool.  Copywork can be analyzed in a way that teaches them all basic writing skills--grammar, mechanics, topic sentence, supporting details, etc.  Students who understand the fundamentals of writing in other people's writing can learn to transfer those concepts to their own writing.

Edited April 30, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[siloam]

It made sense to me, but we are generally more on the concrete side, not random thinkers or learners.  The way so many writing programs are structured I feel they work best for random learners/thinkers.

I can tell you all my kids have done Classical Writing (CW) and while they hate it they appreciate what it has taught them.  The sequential building on concept approach works well here.  The best thing they have learned is a fluidity with changing sentences, moving words, ideas and phrases in order to either fix a problem or to achieve the best result in what they are tying to convey.  My college students are glad they had it to prep them for WR 121.

-Siloam

p.s.  lol!  That signature is a bit outdated, now to go find out how to fix it....given my son is now 17.

Edited April 30, 2020 by siloam

[lifemonk]

21 hours ago, siloam said:

I can tell you all my kids have done Classical Writing (CW) and while they hate it they appreciate what it has taught them. 

I've been using CW's Homer writing program and I find it tremendously helpful in developing solid writing skills. My kid is so at ease in changing sentence structures, adding complex phrases, ideas, etc.

@siloam Until what level did you follow the CW writing program? What is your opinion on its higher levels courses like Herodotus or Plutarch?

[macmacmoo]

double post

Edited May 2, 2020 by macmacmoo

[macmacmoo]

I really liked Memoria Press's curriculum very straight forward you knew what you were striving for and you practice it till it was perfect. But i didn't care for their grammar program and I couldn't find a stand along grammar that i liked well enough to pair with it.

We did a quarter of Cottage Press Fable and Song. I love love love the curriculum. I love the exercises and activities, but the support for composition was severely lacking. While similar to memoria Press in the concept that you did the exercise over and over till perfect. Memoria Press's teachers guide was filled with loads of helpful information. Cottage Press had one meager sample in the teacher book at that was it. I tried pairing the memoria Press teacher's guide with Fable and song but got unwieldy.  

We are using English Lessons through literature. I'm very happy with the exercises. It's more a trickle method where it slowly introduces the variations and sentence play vs memoria presses teacher everything up front method. It's the right balance of grammar and composition. 

 

[Lori D.]

Another person who feels the formal structured programs are better for starting along about 5th-7th grade (depending on the student), unless you have a strong/advanced writer who's ready for more.

You might also check out Writing Tales (two 1-year levels, with level 1 for grades 3-4, and level 2 for grades 4-5) -- and esp. 8FillTheHeart's Treasured Conversations (gr. 3-5), if her required city business licenses come through in time for you to use it next year. Both programs have guided copywork, integrate grammar with the writing, and lead into guided sentence and paragraph construction.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Lori D.

[lulalu]

Is there a book about how to teach the progymnasmata? Like one that takes each stage and says how to teach it. Not a workbook or program teaching.

I hope that makes sense. I have found I just don't like to follow things others have set up. And after looking at samples of Fable stage programs I really feel I could teach this myself. I just wouldn't use all the technical words like MP does 😁. 

 

[Slache]

37 minutes ago, lulalu said:

Is there a book about how to teach the progymnasmata? Like one that takes each stage and says how to teach it. Not a workbook or program teaching.

I hope that makes sense. I have found I just don't like to follow things others have set up. And after looking at samples of Fable stage programs I really feel I could teach this myself. I just wouldn't use all the technical words like MP does 😁. 

Composition in the Classical Tradition

I have never seen this for less than $150 and I cannot believe that price! It was recommended to me by Hunter, but I've never read it because of the cost.

[Slache]

Looks like it's been lower for a while.

[LostintheCosmos]

4 hours ago, lulalu said:

Is there a book about how to teach the progymnasmata? Like one that takes each stage and says how to teach it. Not a workbook or program teaching.

I hope that makes sense. I have found I just don't like to follow things others have set up. And after looking at samples of Fable stage programs I really feel I could teach this myself. I just wouldn't use all the technical words like MP does 😁. 

 

 

I found Rhetoric in Greco-Roman Education by Donald Lemen Clark very helpful for getting my mind around what the progym was and how it was meant to work in the ancient world. He goes through stage by stage with examples and discusses the way they were meant to build on each other. It's not exactly a how-to, but composition teachers were the intended audience, and I found Clark's suggestions for making use of the progym in current writing instruction more practical than some of the modern adaptations I've seen. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by LostCove