OH Gov mandates masks, then walks it back 24 hr later

[saraha]

So yesterday our Governor put out his first phase of the reopening plan. One of the mandates was masks for everyone. Today he walked that back citing 2 reasons. #1 people contacted him and said the mandate was offensive and was government overreach #2 a mom of an autistic boy explained to him why it wouldn't work for her family.  I have some opinions about it all, but want to see what others think.

And Go! 😊

[catz]

Well, I am all in favor of masks in general but I don't see how you can mandate them for everyone when you can't walk into the average store and buy a decent quality fitting mask at a low price point easily.   I'm personally tired of the outrage over people not wearing masks when there still aren't enough for our health care providers and essential workers.  If they are going to be mandatory at a job, they should be provided.  

[Storygirl]

I missed today's press conference, though I always watch them otherwise and saw yesterday's. I'm 95% certain that he said in a comment yesterday that he was not mandating masks for customers, though it was highly recommended -- that he could not make an order that the public has to wear masks. So I wonder if it may be more a relaxing or clarification of what he said before, rather than an about face. I'd have to watch both press conferences one after the other to confirm what I heard yesterday, but it is what I remember being said.

There was a similar thing that happened in March, when he made the school closure announcement as "a three-week spring break" and then had to clarify the next day that schools were allowed to do remote school (not a true spring break) but couldn't have the school buildings open.

There are some people for whom mask wearing will be hard, including some of those with disabilities, and that has to be taken into account, so I think it's good that he has been receptive to that kind of feedback.

But I think that wearing masks is one thing that people can do that might help limit the spread of the virus, and so it is generally a good thing to advocate. DH has been doing all of our out of the house errands, but when I do go out, I will wear a mask, even though it will make me very uncomfortable (claustrophobic). So I'm willing to deal with my own discomfort in order to comply, but I also understand that others might have a hard time and think we should give them grace.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

Following up on my previous post....The local news media is definitely reporting this as a change in the mandate, and I've seen some quotes from what he said today that make it clear he is walking back what he said yesterday (whether it was an official mandate or not).

I think it's good for him to be receptive to ideas from the public. He has been firm in maintaining his orders about other things, so I don't interpret this as him being wishy washy when faced with a negative reaction from the public. I think he wants to seriously consider things from all sides, and that he had not considered fully some of the things that people brought to his attention after his announcement yesterday.

[Storygirl]

Oops double post

Edited April 28, 2020 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

I have some opinions about it all, but want to see what others think.

DeWine's polling had previously been quite high on his handling of the outbreak, and I think people especially liked his commitment to being data-driven and transparent. His "guidelines" issued this week did not reflect the data the public is seeing from other sources and seemed to be some sort of odd political compromise rather than actually putting the good of Ohioans first. Small businesses are going under while he reopens big businesses. Blue collar workers are delayed more weeks while richer industries get back to work. 

So no, I was hot to trot over it and I'm glad he back pedaled. There's going to be a lot of saving face, doubling down, and covering their butts right now because of the errors they've made. They're NOT going to admit them.

When there is no hard science driving the decisions, you cannot increase compulsions on the public without a move by the legislature. He was increasing demands when the current level of compliance has been totally adequate to keep our levels stable. There was zero justification for it, only pandering to fear.

Edited April 28, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

And don't think people aren't noticing that HE gets to eat meals made by people while we can't go to restaurants. HE gets haircuts while we can't. And so on.

So no, there's a definite change in attitude about DeWine right now and he had to backpedal and fast. 

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited April 29, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

True all the talking heads have remained coiffed and camera ready. I’d find them more believable if I had a notion they were social distancing from their personal pit crews!

I do see some people on tv getting kinda scraggly and using the gel, women having to dye their hair themselves because they can't get into the salon. But yeah, once politicians remove themselves from the consequences of their decisions, they're in a bad place.

And you have to remember, Ohio is very "normal". We're not extreme any which way. We have all kinds of views and people gave DeWine a lot of leash. It's kinda 50/50 democrat/republican, with sympathies both ways. But he has pushed buttons and crossed a line.

Edited April 28, 2020 by PeterPan

[SKL]

I agree that it was overreach.  I'm glad he walked it back.

I think a lot of people have trouble wearing masks - breathing through them.

I also wondered why he would add that requirement as part of loosening up.  There has been no requirement for facemasks prior to today in Ohio.  Did the governor forget that the goal is flatten the curve and not eradicate all potential for spread?

A lot of people will wear masks anyway, which is fine and great.  Business owners can also refuse to let you in if you won't wear a mask.

[Selkie]

Masks are mandated in Illinois and I'm glad. I've seen way too many people being careless about social distancing and not covering coughs.

Last time I saw our governor, he was looking pretty shaggy. I don't think he's had a haircut since the shelter in place began.

[Acadie]

I don't find DeWine to be a coiffed/camera-ready politician. He looks every bit of his 73 years and wears a mask to the daily press briefings, taking it off to speak while socially distanced, and then putting it back on afterward. I appreciate the humility and leadership-by-example he evidences by wearing his mask in public, unlike many national politicians. And I say this as an Ohioan who did not vote for him, but appreciates his leadership on COVID-19.

There is data to support public health benefits of mask wearing. I also recognize there are people who are unable to wear masks, due to medical, developmental or emotional reasons, and I think walking back the requirement was his acknowledgement of the same. He said he listened to the mother of a child with autism, and to his wife, in making this change. There are undoubtedly other political reasons for doing so, but if he's stating publicly that he changed his policy based on listening to his wife and mothers of special needs children, I appreciate that as well.

I don't see a big change in attitudes about DeWine, and we've always been able to get takeout food in Ohio.

If you and your family don't feel that wearing masks is what's best for you, I'm glad you don't have to. My family will be wearing masks in indoor public places but not outside, where we choose places that allow for social distances much greater than 6 feet, because that's what we feel is best for us.

I hope enough Ohioans take mask-wearing seriously, without a mandate, to keep our COVID cases and deaths down. I believe the reason this was part of his opening-up announcement was that the virus hasn't gone anywhere, and we are going to see increased cases as businesses open up in our state. Mask-wearing is one of several measures that can help offset that as we try to get our state economy moving again. 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Acadie

[Carrie12345]

We have a mask “mandate”, but no one is arresting people who don’t comply. There are exceptions for kids under 2 and “medical reasons” which are easy enough to claim even if the reason isn’t breathing related. Stores must make accommodations for non-mask-wearers, like bringing their order out to them. And it’s actually a face covering mandate, not necessarily mask. Bandana, t-shirt, whatever.

There’s nothing offensive about acknowledging that most asymptomatic people don’t know they’re infected.

[Carrie12345]

Adding: I can see difficulties for employers who need to provide many masks. But someone running for groceries most likely has at least a random t-shirt at home.

[Selkie]

13 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Adding: I can see difficulties for employers who need to provide many masks. But someone running for groceries most likely has at least a random t-shirt at home.

It's not that difficult, actually. We got several cloth masks for each of our employees, and there was an abundance of them available online to choose from.

[cintinative]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And don't think people aren't noticing that HE gets to eat meals made by people while we can't go to restaurants. HE gets haircuts while we can't. And so on.

So no, there's a definite change in attitude about DeWine right now and he had to backpedal and fast. 

He has not had a haircut that I can tell. I have been watching nearly daily for a month now.

[Acadie]

6 minutes ago, cintinative said:

He has not had a haircut that I can tell. I have been watching nearly daily for a month now.

 

He said a week or two ago he really needed a haircut. 

I googled images of him over the past few months. Though I saw no evidence of haircut, I decided not to comment because visual assessment isn't my strong suit 😂

Edited April 29, 2020 by Acadie

[cintinative]

1 minute ago, Acadie said:

 

He said a week or two ago he really needed a haircut. 

I googled images of him over the past few months. Though I saw no evidence of haircut, I decided not to comment because visual assessment isn't my strong suit 😂

 

My friend was just saying today that Fran needs to give him a haircut. LOL.

[mom2scouts]

The governor has been asked again and again if he was going to mandate mask wearing. In fact, it was a joke in our house about which reporter would ask it each day. I thought he made it clear that he didn't want to *require* it but people should just wear the masks because it was the right thing to do to protect people. When they started talking about reopening the state, it seemed business leaders they consulted asked it to be mandated for both employees and customers, so they did. Just by my FB feeds reaction to the mandate,  I was pretty sure it wasn't going to last long. There are people who CAN NOT wear a mask for a variety of reasons (both physical and mental health reasons) and between being made aware of those reasons, complaints that a mandate was extreme government overreach, and some businesses saying it violated the health codes for their industry, it made sense to withdraw the mandate. He's right back to where he was at the beginning when he told people they should wear a mask or anything that covers their nose and mouth if they were able to do so and it's not mandated but highly recommended.

[mom2scouts]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And don't think people aren't noticing that HE gets to eat meals made by people while we can't go to restaurants. HE gets haircuts while we can't. And so on.

So no, there's a definite change in attitude about DeWine right now and he had to backpedal and fast. 

What are you talking about? He hasn't had a haircut. He even mentioned a day or so ago about how overdue he is for a haircut, but it's not time to open barbers and salons yet.  DeWine has NEVER been "coiffed and camera ready" anyway. As for food, you can get food "made by people" at any of the restaurants that are still open and doing drive through pickup. Also, his wife is on there giving recipes for simple meals she's been making.

[PeterPan]

Well good on the haircuts. Someone else told me he looked today like he had had one, and I didn't check, my bad.

[PeterPan]

20 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

Just by my FB feeds reaction to the mandate,  I was pretty sure it wasn't going to last long.

Interesting. I've been staying off FB for the most part, so I've been kind of out of the loop. I just knew my own reaction when the news finally trickled down to me. And people probably have a lot of different reasons, but there was a cumulative effect.

I wish they'd get restaurants and small businesses open. Sigh. It just kills me that they can't be open but big box stores around here are PACKED, absolutely packed, lines out the door. People would be safer actually working than standing in lines at Walmart and Home Depot because they're bored stiff.

[Tree Frog]

In our large, south central Texas city, adults and children over 10 are required to wear masks or face coverings if we can't keep social distancing and anytime we're in stores. Many stores have employees stationed in front of the entrance to stop people from entering if they don't have one.  I'm not sure if my city will require continue to them when our governor starts opening the state this Friday. People have been wearing bandannas, scarves, whatever they have. Many people have been making them to sell through FB or NextDoor. I have a friend who has been selling masks as a fundraiser for Meals on Wheels. Many people on Etsy are selling them. I've met some people who believe requiring masks is governmental overreach and refuse to wear them. As a result, they aren't being allowed in stores. I believe that even if we're not required to wear them after Friday, many people will.

[Ali in OR]

I'm glad that in my little corner of the world, most people are wearing masks when out even though they're not mandated. I work in a public high school, and if we go back to the building in September, I hope they do require masks in schools (NOT the life skills kids like my dd who wouldn't keep it on anyway. If everyone else masks up, they'll be more protected). There's just so much coughing and germ sharing in the best of times. I would worry a little less if we all masked up. And even better, figure out how to do school without 30+ people crammed in a classroom.

[kbutton]

6 hours ago, Seasider too said:

Highlighting this bit to state that there need to be some clear guidelines when it comes to mask wearing. 

What areas/professions are hot zones where masks are required by all?

What constitutes a mask? N95, surgical, cloth with filter, cloth without filter, any-rag’ll-do?

Who needs to wear which sort of mask where/when?

Lotsa questions. I’d like authentic science based answers, along with common sense exceptions for those who truly can’t wear them.

I think those are reasonable questions, but Ohio has been quite clear about their mask expectations short of the walking back this week--they've been asking people to use them for some time, and they don't want people using medical masks because of a shortage of PPE. Some of us have them due to allergies or dusty/grimy home projects.

I think Ohio is happy to have people covering in any possible way.

I doubt anyone is going to give serious flack about younger children not wearing them. My 12 y.o. fiddles with his so much, I am not sure it's going to be worth it for him, but we can practice more. I can also make his mask fit better--that is part of his problem. We are all encouraged to leave the kids at home if possible. Some stores are banning kids under a certain age (but I think most offer curbside pickup).

At some point when I get out, I plan to thank businesses that have masked employees when I go in. I plan to avoid places that do not mask. It's a courtesy like covering hair and wearing gloves when you prepare food in a restaurant.

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Small businesses are going under while he reopens big businesses. Blue collar workers are delayed more weeks while richer industries get back to work. 

I heard this criticism elsewhere, but I know tons of small businesses that have been open this entire time--Ohio has been super generous about allowing many small businesses to continue operating if they can keep employees safe and justify how they are essential. Meanwhile, healthcare, one of the richer industries, is furloughing people. That is a problem for our household. 

Box stores near us are moderately full, and it probably depends on day and time. Our local Lowe's is offering totally distanced service--they have completely socially distanced pickup. Even custom paint mixed without stepping foot inside the store. Local everything is either delivering or bending over backwards to clean everything. I've been completely impressed.

DeWine was getting kind of shaggy--with wavy hair, he might've had more ways to keep it out of his eyes. If he gets a haircut, my bet is that his wife does it. She seems to be good a lot of stuff. 

I gave three hair cuts about two weeks into the Stay at Home order. They're not perfect cuts, but they are not bad. Lots of people in my FB feed are giving better than expected hair cuts or whipping out the clippers and giving every a buzz.

1 hour ago, kand said:

This is why opening up again is going to be so difficult. Because there are people totally unwilling to do things we know can reduce the spread because it's their God-given right to decide what they will and won't do and they won't have anyone else telling them. And then those same people rant about why can't we just open up more things. 

I really don't know why there is a group of people who desperately do not want masks to be a helpful strategy. Wouldn't it be excellent if the mask data showing a very significant decrease in disease transmission with everyone masked was true? What a difference that would make in us being able to have people back at work and going out and doing things, and with a strategy that's relatively easy for most people. If everyone is wearing a mask except those who absolutely can not, it still makes a big difference. The numbers I've seen suggest that if 80% of the public is masked, that's enough to make a big difference.

But, it looks like we have enough people who don't want masks to be a helpful strategy that I don't know if we will get there. Strange that those are frequently the same people who want things to open up and who also want everyone to just hurry up and get sick so we can get on with it. Hmm, actually, I guess I may have just realized one of the reasons those tend to be the same people who don't want to have masks mandated.

Those of us who are high risk are supposed to be willing to sacrifice our lives so everyone else can get back to normal life, but those same people can't be troubled to wear a mask in public. I'm particularly grumpy about this tonight, having read too many threads that have little to no regard for other people's lives, coupled with an indignance about their own inconveniences.

Yes, the two-faced response on this is the most maddening one to me. 

I am also disgusted that so many people who find masks anxiety-producing think nothing of dousing themselves in all kinds of scents from fabric softener to perfume and walking around giving people asthma attacks. People who are not sensitive to chemicals (including those blasted essential oils!!!) really don't get it. 

I am not a fan of masks, but I will do my best. I do have to concentrate to not feel way too hot and claustrophobic, especially on a hot day or in a store without much ventilation. But I also feel that way about shoes and socks, lol! I get panicky when my feet get too hot (they get outrageously hot), not just my face. 🙂 And well, I've been in and out of hot flash territory for a while now. A mask is really not different from those problems.

[Farrar]

We have a mask mandate. It’s a huge load off my mind. Stores bear the responsibility for it, though the police have been out educating people about it.

As long as there are exceptions for medical reasons and penalties are not harsh, I fail to see anything even mildly offensive about it. It’s safety related. You can’t go in a building without shoes on either and no one decries that their liberty has been destroyed as a result. Welcome to the new world. Masks are here for awhile.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Farrar

[kbutton]

This seems like a good place to insert this purposefully outrageous explanation of masks...

[Laurie]

8 hours ago, saraha said:

So yesterday our Governor put out his first phase of the reopening plan. One of the mandates was masks for everyone. Today he walked that back citing 2 reasons. #1 people contacted him and said the mandate was offensive and was government overreach #2 a mom of an autistic boy explained to him why it wouldn't work for her family.   

I've been really worried about a mask mandate because my daughter has autism.  I wear a mask when I go to the grocery store and I shop when my husband can stay home with her.  But someday she'll need to go to an appointment or something and wearing a mask may be a big problem.  I've been trying to ease her into it now but she's not receptive.

It's sad that masks will help some people but hurt others:  Tonight I saw this story on the local news about a woman making masks with clear windows to help deaf/hard of hearing people.   https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/we-need-this-so-much-masks-with-windows-help-hearing-loss-community

I'm glad there are so many creative people/problem solvers to help us cope with the "new normal"  requirements!  

 

 

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I wish they'd get restaurants and small businesses open. Sigh. It just kills me that they can't be open but big box stores around here are PACKED, absolutely packed, lines out the door. People would be safer actually working than standing in lines at Walmart and Home Depot because they're bored stiff.

Are you saying there are lines out the door because normal occupancy limits are being met, or because they’re *not packed inside and people are waiting their turn to get in because the stores are maintaining social distance practices? Stores here are supposed to have 6’ line spacing and X number of people per square foot.

As someone who comes from a long line of owners/bartenders/servers, past and present, that’s a WAY bigger exposure than waiting online outside. If line-mates are wearing masks for, say, and hour or two once a week or two, that’s nothing compared to interacting with however many unmasked people within just about zero feet and handling their dirty place settings over the course of a shift multiple times a week.

I’m glad that my area requires people to protect cashiers now. People serving people who are eating can’t get that protection.

[Tenaj]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

I wish they'd get restaurants and small businesses open. Sigh. It just kills me that they can't be open but big box stores around here are PACKED, absolutely packed, lines out the door. People would be safer actually working than standing in lines at Walmart and Home Depot because they're bored stiff.

Can you explain this to me?  Why are people complaining about the big box stores being open?  Around my area, there are no small grocery stores.  Any grocery store that opens would be considered a big box store.  We have the choice of Krogers (I guess this one technically isn't big box but it isn't mom and pop either), Walmart, and Meijers.  What would you have the governor do?  Close down the grocery stores?  

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

What are you talking about? He hasn't had a haircut. He even mentioned a day or so ago about how overdue he is for a haircut, but it's not time to open barbers and salons yet.  DeWine has NEVER been "coiffed and camera ready" anyway. As for food, you can get food "made by people" at any of the restaurants that are still open and doing drive through pickup. Also, his wife is on there giving recipes for simple meals she's been making.

Governor Hogan is finally happy to be bald. 😄

[Guest]

Personally, I don’t see why necessary exceptions should be such a dire tripping-point on mask requirements, in exactly the same manner as when we, as a society, were all arguing about disposable straws. So some people can’t? So freakin what? What is so hard about exempting people with legit reasons? 

It’s just like other things, for example, wearing shoes. Every public facility I have ever visited (except perhaps a public swimming pool) requires people to wear shoes. Even though some kids are really difficult to train in shoe-wearing. Even though some people don’t have feet. Even though some people cannot afford any kind of shoe easily. Almost everybody, everywhere, wears shoes. In the few instances someone is not wearing shoes, it is almost always apparent why not: they are amputees, they have profound and obvious medical or mental handicaps, they are wearing a cast or boot and are using medical devices like crutches or scooters. But when Joe Blow tries to stroll into the Walmart bare-footed, he is asked to put on shoes or leave the store. Nobody freaks out because they are subjected to the tyranny of foot-coverings. But people do it with masks because it is new. 

[Tenaj]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

Personally, I don’t see why necessary exceptions should be such a dire tripping-point on mask requirements, in exactly the same manner as when we, as a society, were all arguing about disposable straws. So some people can’t? So freakin what? What is so hard about exempting people with legit reasons? 

It’s just like other things, for example, wearing shoes. Every public facility I have ever visited (except perhaps a public swimming pool) requires people to wear shoes. Even though some kids are really difficult to train in shoe-wearing. Even though some people don’t have feet. Even though some people cannot afford any kind of shoe easily. Almost everybody, everywhere, wears shoes. In the few instances someone is not wearing shoes, it is almost always apparent why not: they are amputees, they have profound and obvious medical or mental handicaps, they are wearing a cast or boot and are using medical devices like crutches or scooters. But when Joe Blow tries to stroll into the Walmart bare-footed, he is asked to put on shoes or leave the store. Nobody freaks out because they are subjected to the tyranny of foot-coverings. But people do it with masks because it is new. 

I agree with you about the exemptions.  It seems to be the most logical way to treat the issues that come up but I think for it to work you have to make mask-wearing the norm (like shoes) which it is not.

Part of the problem with the mask-wearing is from way back in February when they were telling us not to wear masks.  

I was out yesterday for the first time in a store so it was my first time wearing a mask.  I was surprised by how uncomfortable I was and how weird it was to not be able to read facial clues on others faces as easily.  It was hard to talk, hard to breathe, hard to navigate (my glasses kept fogging up).  

I'll continue to wear one as long as it is recommended but I won't like it 🙂.  I have one SIL who works retail and is very upset that the mandate was removed for customers and one SIL who works healthcare and says she'll mask at work but nowhere else.  What a mess!

 

[SKL]

Some people have trouble breathing even without a mask.  Making them wear a mask and causing certain problems just because there is a small chance they might be sick and might cough at the odd moment when someone is standing close to them?  Not right IMO.  Of course they can still wear one if they want to.

Making exceptions means the people who have reasons not to wear a mask will be accosted and treated differently from others.  "Hey you.  Why aren't you wearing a mask?  Are you autistic or mentally ill or what?"  Why not just assume the person has a good reason not to wear a mask, and stay 6' away from that person?

Again, business owners have a right to not serve people who won't wear a mask.  So if you are doing some kind of up-close-and-personal work, and you don't want to risk it, just say no to mask avoiders for now.

My unpopular opinion is that it's not wrong to make an early contribution to herd immunity, and so if I had to deal with lots of non-mask-wearers right now at work, I would welcome that.

[pitterpatter]

Yes! I think about this a lot. I don't see a difference. People need to get used to the idea and get over it. I remember when the no shirt, no shoes, no service signs went up in the eighties. I was fairly young, but I remember adults discussing it. I remember men being up in arms about having to wear shirts. People got over it. I think one issue is that masks became politicized when certain politicians refused to wear them. I'm going to be honest. My American pride is shot at this point. I've never been more embarrassed to be American than I have during our public and political response to this pandemic. I'm ashamed that we can't seem to muster up a united front to fight this virus, which will ultimately get us all back to more normal lives.

10 hours ago, Farrar said:

We have a mask mandate. It’s a huge load off my mind. Stores bear the responsibility for it, though the police have been out educating people about it.

As long as there are exceptions for medical reasons and penalties are not harsh, I fail to see anything even mildly offensive about it. It’s safety related. You can’t go in a building without shoes on either and no one decries that their liberty has been destroyed as a result. Welcome to the new world. Masks are here for awhile.

 

[SKL]

40 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Yes! I think about this a lot. I don't see a difference. People need to get used to the idea and get over it. I remember when the no shirt, no shoes, no service signs went up in the eighties. I was fairly young, but I remember adults discussing it. I remember men being up in arms about having to wear shirts. People got over it. I think one issue is that masks became politicized when certain politicians refused to wear them. I'm going to be honest. My American pride is shot at this point. I've never been more embarrassed to be American than I havHow e during our public and political response to this pandemic. I'm ashamed that we can't seem to muster up a united front to fight this virus, which will ultimately get us all back to more normal lives.

 

The bolded seems a popular opinion here, but I don't find it at all embarrassing or shameful that Americans have and express different opinions.  It feels very American to me.  There's never been a time in our history when some of us weren't loudly wrong.  It doesn't make the USA less American.  Of course sometimes the "loudly wrong" people end up being right....

FTR I am NOT against people wearing masks.  I personally hope that, very soon, we can provide masks that protect the wearer for everyone who needs or wants them.  Meanwhile I personally do all I can to protect others.  I still think the mandate was overreach.

[pitterpatter]

Well, we're really only a month to two into this (depending on where you live). To be complaining so loudly so soon does seem a bit whiny to me. I think a political cartoonist could symbolize America as a spoiled child right now. And, that DOES embarrass me.

29 minutes ago, SKL said:

The bolded seems a popular opinion here, but I don't find it at all embarrassing or shameful that Americans have and express different opinions.  It feels very American to me.  There's never been a time in our history when some of us weren't loudly wrong.  It doesn't make the USA less American.  Of course sometimes the "loudly wrong" people end up being right....

FTR I am NOT against people wearing masks.  I personally hope that, very soon, we can provide masks that protect the wearer for everyone who needs or wants them.  Meanwhile I personally do all I can to protect others.  I still think the mandate was overreach.

 

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Well, we're really only a month to two into this (depending on where you live). To be complaining so loudly so soon does seem a bit whiny to me. I think a political cartoonist could symbolize America as a spoiled child right now. And, that DOES embarrass me.

 

I'd rather Americans question and think critically than accept whatever The Man says.  We can agree to disagree of course!!

[SKL]

13 minutes ago, kand said:

Do you think the health care workers responsible for treating you if you get sick will be glad for your contribution? Or do you think you’d be adding to their current hardships and risk? How about the forty-something mom with three young kids and hypertension that you talked to in line at the grocery store that then contracted it from you and ended up hospitalized on a ventilator for three weeks, with her family unsure if she would live? You can try to make yourself feel better by calling it a “contribution” to not do your best to avoid infecting others, but calling it that doesn’t suddenly make it benevolent, or even neutral.

Never said I wasn't doing my best to avoid infecting others who don't want to be infected.

Statistically it is extremely unlikely that any healthcare worker will be affected by my getting the virus, provided I don't spread it to at-risk people (which am no more likely to do than you).

I'm pretty sure health care workers will be very happy when herd immunity is achieved.

[hopeallgoeswell]

2 hours ago, kand said:

You know that lots of previously healthy people are being hospitalized, right? Hopefully you wouldn’t be one of them, but it’s not like it’s an incredibly unlikely outcome. I don’t know if you’re less likely to spread illness than I am, as I don’t know what you’re doing to prevent doing so. Are you masking every time you go out? If so, thank you. If not, then yes, you are more likely to spread illness than I am. 

What percentage do you consider "lots" to be?  Keeping in mind that these numbers are for people who were 1. sick enough to get a tested (asymptomatic and mild/moderate cases were not likely to be included in March) and 2. tested positive:

"Hospitalization rates increased with age, with a rate of 0.3 in persons aged 0–4 years, 0.1 in those aged 5–17 years, 2.5 in those aged 18–49 years, 7.4 in those aged 50–64 years, and 13.8 in those aged ≥65 years."  Also, "...89.3% had one or more underlying conditions." https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm

For some sort of comparison: 

"Our estimates of hospitalizations and mortality associated with the 2018–2019 influenza season continue to demonstrate how serious influenza virus infection can be. We estimate, overall, there were 490,600 hospitalizations and 34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 season. More than 46,000 hospitalizations occurred in children (aged <18 years); however, 57% of hospitalizations occurred in older adults aged ≥65 years. Older adults also accounted for 75% of influenza-associated deaths..." So about 32% of hospitalizations were in the 19-64 age range.  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

In 2017, 160,201 people died of lower respiratory illness and 55,672 from pneumonia and influenza (Table B). https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf

And yes, I do know that influenza isn't covid and we have better knowledge and treatments and a semi-effective vaccine for influenza, but I am comparing two respiratory illnesses that get spread similarly.  People/government officials/media have not previously demanded everyone wear a mask and then shamed everyone for not wearing masks or telling non-mask wearers that they were directly responsible for hospitalizing a forty-something mom of three with hypertension. Maybe it's just people on this forum, because I'm not seeing it in any of my widely-varied friend groups, but people have jumped off the deep end with their confirmation bias and blinders. 

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, JanOH said:

Can you explain this to me?  Why are people complaining about the big box stores being open?  Around my area, there are no small grocery stores.  Any grocery store that opens would be considered a big box store.  We have the choice of Krogers (I guess this one technically isn't big box but it isn't mom and pop either), Walmart, and Meijers.  What would you have the governor do?  Close down the grocery stores?  

 

Grocery stores, big and small, have always been open. It's businesses like a specialty shop for autism/sensory things that is could go under. Hobby Lobby isn't open when they sell stuff that overlaps with Joanns and Walmart who were kept open. Best Buy isn't open even though they sell appliances just like Lowes/Home Depot. 

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Some people have trouble breathing even without a mask.

Bingo. My father's assisted living is having trouble getting housekeeping staff to stay because they don't want to work so physically hard while wearing a mask. And I get it, most vulnerable population, hard work, low pay. But my dad's bed is literally NOT GETTING CHANGED for two weeks and he had to do his sheets and change it himself. Now it was a really nice task for his day and made him feel very proud. But there are just a lot of consequences to these policies they're laying out.

They need to be doing more antibody testing. If a majority of people have been exposed (which the CA testing would seem to imply is possible), then it isn't necessary for those people to wear masks. I mean, we could literally be wearing masks for no reason. I'd like to see data, antibody testing, actual data driving these "guidelines" rather than assumptions and fear mongering. Everyone is getting exposed anyway. I do not see how we can possibly turn this into preventing swaths of people from getting exposed. The virus spreads even with SIP.

9 hours ago, SKL said:

The bolded seems a popular opinion here, but I don't find it at all embarrassing or shameful that Americans have and express different opinions.

Agreed. And did you see last night Tucker Carlson's report that Youtube and Facebook are actively removing anything that dissents? And where they can't get away with removing it, they smother warnings to go to the CDC site for better info. Sorry, but when did we vote to become China??? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPrbGU0Wyh4

[PeterPan]

Ok, so here was a weird thing about the Ohio re-openings. DeWine had said outpatient medical, including dentists, were re-opening, right? Well the dentist called today and rescheduled ds' dental cleaning, saying the CDC had called saying JUNE. So that's some interesting turf war.

 

[SKL]

18 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, so here was a weird thing about the Ohio re-openings. DeWine had said outpatient medical, including dentists, were re-opening, right? Well the dentist called today and rescheduled ds' dental cleaning, saying the CDC had called saying JUNE. So that's some interesting turf war.

He said they could open, for certain necessary services, provided they could meet xyz requirements.  They are not allowing every kind of medical or dental service yet apparently.

Not sure what this means for folks in the middle of orthodontic work etc.

[ktgrok]

On 4/28/2020 at 5:43 PM, PeterPan said:

And don't think people aren't noticing that HE gets to eat meals made by people while we can't go to restaurants. HE gets haircuts while we can't. And so on.

So no, there's a definite change in attitude about DeWine right now and he had to backpedal and fast. 

Um, all my relatives in Ohio are posting pictures on Facebook of the restaurant meals they are eating - from take out. All small local places, and the food looks great. So....he gets takeout, and you can have takeout. He hasn't had a haircut, you can't get a haircut. 

On 4/28/2020 at 6:03 PM, SKL said:

I agree that it was overreach.  I'm glad he walked it back.

I think a lot of people have trouble wearing masks - breathing through them.

I also wondered why he would add that requirement as part of loosening up.  There has been no requirement for facemasks prior to today in Ohio.  Did the governor forget that the goal is flatten the curve and not eradicate all potential for spread?

A lot of people will wear masks anyway, which is fine and great.  Business owners can also refuse to let you in if you won't wear a mask.

Um, the goal wasn't to flatten it and then spike it! If we are loosening stay in place, we need to have people wearing masks, social distancing, etc to keep it flat. 

On 4/28/2020 at 10:30 PM, PeterPan said:

Interesting. I've been staying off FB for the most part, so I've been kind of out of the loop. I just knew my own reaction when the news finally trickled down to me. And people probably have a lot of different reasons, but there was a cumulative effect.

I wish they'd get restaurants and small businesses open. Sigh. It just kills me that they can't be open but big box stores around here are PACKED, absolutely packed, lines out the door. People would be safer actually working than standing in lines at Walmart and Home Depot because they're bored stiff.

Again, many restaurants are open for take out. And as for where people would be safer? HOME. Not being big babies and hanging out at walmart because they are "bored stiff". SUCK IT UP. Watch some netflix, learn to knit, write a novel, or if you have to go out and want to get your exposure on, volunteer. Bored people going to walmart is NOT a valid argument for anything. 

On 4/28/2020 at 11:53 PM, Farrar said:

We have a mask mandate. It’s a huge load off my mind. Stores bear the responsibility for it, though the police have been out educating people about it.

As long as there are exceptions for medical reasons and penalties are not harsh, I fail to see anything even mildly offensive about it. It’s safety related. You can’t go in a building without shoes on either and no one decries that their liberty has been destroyed as a result. Welcome to the new world. Masks are here for awhile.

Yup. Funny I don't see people DEMANDING public health information and studies, etc proving that shoes make walking in a store safer. Or complaining about how some people have bunions, etc so shoes are not a good idea for them. 

14 hours ago, SKL said:

Some people have trouble breathing even without a mask.  Making them wear a mask and causing certain problems just because there is a small chance they might be sick and might cough at the odd moment when someone is standing close to them?  Not right IMO.  Of course they can still wear one if they want to.

Making exceptions means the people who have reasons not to wear a mask will be accosted and treated differently from others.  "Hey you.  Why aren't you wearing a mask?  Are you autistic or mentally ill or what?"  Why not just assume the person has a good reason not to wear a mask, and stay 6' away from that person?

 

Wow, so when people wander into Denny's and Target barefoot, or shirtless, or pantsless, do they not get treated differently? Pretty sure they do. Same with masks. Think of them as face clothing. 

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Never said I wasn't doing my best to avoid infecting others who don't want to be infected.

Statistically it is extremely unlikely that any healthcare worker will be affected by my getting the virus, provided I don't spread it to at-risk people (which am no more likely to do than you).

I'm pretty sure health care workers will be very happy when herd immunity is achieved.

If you don't wear a mask, than yes, you are more likely to spread it than those who do. 

6 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

 

For some sort of comparison: 

"Our estimates of hospitalizations and mortality associated with the 2018–2019 influenza season continue to demonstrate how serious influenza virus infection can be. We estimate, overall, there were 490,600 hospitalizations and 34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 season. More than 46,000 hospitalizations occurred in children (aged <18 years); however, 57% of hospitalizations occurred in older adults aged ≥65 years. Older adults also accounted for 75% of influenza-associated deaths..." So about 32% of hospitalizations were in the 19-64 age range.  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

 

We've had more deaths than that in the past 30 days alone, compared to an entire flu season. 

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

Agreed. And did you see last night Tucker Carlson's report that Youtube and Facebook are actively removing anything that dissents? And where they can't get away with removing it, they smother warnings to go to the CDC site for better info. Sorry, but when did we vote to become China??? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPrbGU0Wyh4

TRust me, there is plenty of nonsense on Facebook. Plenty. But yes, they are banning ads that seek to make money off of pushing false cures. And are flagging posts that present misinformation that health officials label as harmful. Oh,and preventing people from posting fake stories about testing site locations and such. And of course, they are a private company, NOT the government, so the idea that this is somehow the same as Chinese censorship is ridiculous. 

[Carrie12345]

Yesterday, when I was parked to get my pick up order, I saw a man getting online to go inside. He pulled the hood of his sweatshirt up, and tucked a t-shirt around his face and into the hoodie.

Ideal? Unlikely. But I was impressed by his ingenuity. The vast majority of people can figure it out.  And, when the vast majority of people do it, it protects those who truly can’t. Kinda like that other thing most of us are hoping for...

[Laura Corin]

12 hours ago, StellaM said:

In the service of international castigation:

This is the worst federal government we could ever have in a crisis. They had to be pushed to deal with it, and now they are pulling back as fast as they can from the promises they had to make around unemployment, disease control etc.

They have left the arts industry (a major employer) to languish, while lavishing attention on the needs of sports codes.

They are inelegantly picking a fight with China, for political purposes.

They are literally bribing private schools to open in direct contradiction of advice from their State Chief Medical Officers.

I could go on, but you get the point.

People on these boards can't have it both ways; tell internationals that 'this is an American forum, your input is irrelevant', and then complain that American posters talk about American government, lol

 

Or the UK?  I could go on but this may suffice: herd immunity.... oops!

I am honestly torn between: 'How could [pick your political leader] make these mistakes?' and 'Would I have done any better?'  We could all hope for better leaders, but I know that I'd be really crap.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I am honestly torn between: 'How could [pick your political leader] make these mistakes?' and 'Would I have done any better?'  We could all hope for better leaders, but I know that I'd be really crap.

I think that's why DeWine has been given so much leash, because people respect that. Somebody had to make a call and it could even be the wrong call. But where he's going astray is shifting from looking at data to holding his finger to the political wind, trying to appease factions. 

I really liked what the Texas governor was saying. They're opening all restaurants, all retail, all by percent capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jBpjDyfIVo

I think improvements in how we can treat this matter too. If they can focus on TREATMENT that is successful, doing the testing to predict who will have a cytokine storm and what treatments will calm that down and prevent the ICU/intubation, then we have a lot more flexibility to reopen safely. To me this whole test and track thing seems behind. Everyone is going to get exposed, everyone gets it, so we need better treatments. But there's big money to be made with testing...

I'm not a Glen Beck fan, but this doctor he's interviewing about treatments for the cytokine storm seems legit. This doc is having massive success. That seems like such a game changer if we have a way to predict who has a cytokine storm and treat it. Way better than this harping over testing and tracking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwMZ_U5GqOE

[Happy2BaMom]

21 hours ago, SKL said:

I'd rather Americans question and think critically than accept whatever The Man says.  We can agree to disagree of course!!

 

It's pretty obvious that not thinking critically and accepting whatever "The Man" says are characteristics of both sides of this debate.

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I think that's why DeWine has been given so much leash, because people respect that. Somebody had to make a call and it could even be the wrong call. But where he's going astray is shifting from looking at data to holding his finger to the political wind, trying to appease factions. 

I really liked what the Texas governor was saying. They're opening all restaurants, all retail, all by percent capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jBpjDyfIVo

I think improvements in how we can treat this matter too. If they can focus on TREATMENT that is successful, doing the testing to predict who will have a cytokine storm and what treatments will calm that down and prevent the ICU/intubation, then we have a lot more flexibility to reopen safely. To me this whole test and track thing seems behind. Everyone is going to get exposed, everyone gets it, so we need better treatments. But there's big money to be made with testing...

I'm not a Glen Beck fan, but this doctor he's interviewing about treatments for the cytokine storm seems legit. This doc is having massive success. That seems like such a game changer if we have a way to predict who has a cytokine storm and treat it. Way better than this harping over testing and tracking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwMZ_U5GqOE

We need testing so we can treat earlier, hopefully, and so we can prevent those who are positive from interacting, hopefully, with high risk individuals. Also, we need testing so we can just plain learn more about the disease, how it is spreading, etc. 

Like we still don't know if kids are not getting it at all very often, or if they are and are not showing signs (most of the time). And if they are, are they spreading it? Knowing that would be a HUGE help in knowing when to open schools, how best to do so, etc. If they are actually generally fighting it off and not becoming infected or spreading it, that is a big difference versus if they are just tiny asymptomatic spreaders. Or, maybe they don't often get it, but when they do they show symptoms, that would be a whole other thing. We need the testing to figure all that out. 

Same with spread in adults. If we find out it is spreading more via airborne vs contact, etc etc. Testing gives us that info. Testing more people lets us see how different factors interact with the disease itself, etc. 

Also, we are already seeing that we need to stop thinking of this as a respiratory illness - in the past several weeks alone we've realized that by focusing on only those symptoms we are missing cardiac involvement, clotting issues, kidney issues, etc that are happening even without severe respiratory involvement. Stopping people from needing a vent is great, but there is a heck of a lot more damage being done that just that. 

[Selkie]

Saw this on Facebook today and thought of this thread. The person who posted it gave permission for it to be copied and pasted.

I wear a mask in public, not for me, but for YOU. I want you to know that I am educated enough to know that, although I have been very careful, I could be asymptomatic and still give you the virus. I don’t “live in fear” of the virus-- I just want to be a part of the solution, not the problem. I don’t feel the “government is controlling me”; I feel like I’m being a contributing adult to society and I want to teach children the same. I want them to grow up as I did knowing that the world doesn’t revolve around me... that it’s not all about me and my personal comfort...that if we all could live with the consideration of others in mind, this whole world would be a much better place.

Wearing a mask doesn’t make me weak, scared, stupid or even “controlled”; it makes me considerate.

#DoingMyPart #PayItForward