Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE

[Ottakee]

20 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Yes, not my son’s class but I know the teacher well (in addition to the special ed connection, my other son grew up with her boys). These teachers have been working their butts off to do special ed long distance. 

I work in special education.   We are trying but distance learning just doesn't work well for students with severe and/or multiple impairments 

[sassenach]

Just now, Ottakee said:

I work in special education.   We are trying but distance learning just doesn't work well for students with severe and/or multiple impairments 

It's not working for ANY student, but it's especially terrible for these guys. Other than getting to experience familiar voices over zoom, there's not much that can be done. Bless his teacher, though. She's trying!

[Arcadia]

Walked to Safeway at around 7pm to buy aquaphor and families are out without masks walking around. My city gave out masks two days ago (5 pieces for adults to share and 10pcs for children to share, and can take another 5 if we have seniors at home ) so it’s not due to lack of masks to wear.

[Arcadia]

@MEmama kids are let off for summer earlier for teachers to prep

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/alameda-unified-to-end-school-year-earlier-than-scheduled/2292938/

“The Alameda Unified School District on Monday decided to end the school year earlier than scheduled to allow teachers and staff to prepare distance learning plans for the fall, according to district officials.

In a special meeting Monday, the school board voted 5-0 to end the 2019-20 school year on May 29 instead of June 8. The decision was approved by a vote of the union that represents district teachers, the district said.

The early end to the school year will provide more staff development days for teachers to prepare online learning plans for the following school year, as health officials have predicted a possible second spike in COVID-19 infections in the fall and winter.”

[Arcadia]

Google @mathnerd

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/alphabet-ceo-pichai-lays-out-coronavirus-return-to-work-plans.html

“I expect by the end of the year, we’ll be at 20% to 30% capacity. Which may still mean we are able to get 60% of our employees in once a week, or something like that,” Pichai said on “The Vergecast” podcast.

The company will start by bringing 10% to 15% of workers in the office at any time, Pichai said. Alphabet, which is the parent company Google, will prioritize employees who need to be in the offices, such as those who need to access certain equipment or products. As it ramps up operations, Pichai said he believes the company will cap office attendance at 20% to 30% of workers in the office at any given time.

“That’s what we mean, where a vast majority of employees we think will likely work from home through the end of the year,” Pichai said. Google has fewer than 5% of global employees working from offices currently. 

...

Pichai warned that productivity is down in some parts of the company, and he’s unsure how working remotely will play out as employees begin brainstorming next year’s products. So he’s going to be more conservative on keeping people out of the office, but is studying what works well and what doesn’t. 

“But coming out of it all, do we all learn and have more flexibility in how we think about this? I think so, yeah. That’s how I would bet,” Pichai said.”

 

[Arcadia]

Pier 1 https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/19/business/pier-1-shutting-down/index.html

“Pier 1 announced Tuesday that it's asking the bankruptcy court to cease its retail operations "as soon as reasonably possible." It blames temporary store closures caused by coronavirus and failing to find a buyer for the drastic decision. 

The 58-year-old company said it analyzed alternative ways to remain in business, but liquidation was the best option.

"Ultimately, due to the combination of a challenging retail environment and the new reality and uncertainty of a post-Covid world, the company and its advisers determined that an orderly wind-down is the best way to maximize the value of Pier 1's assets," the company said in a press release.”

 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Pier 1 https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/19/business/pier-1-shutting-down/index.html

“Pier 1 announced Tuesday that it's asking the bankruptcy court to cease its retail operations "as soon as reasonably possible." It blames temporary store closures caused by coronavirus and failing to find a buyer for the drastic decision. 

The 58-year-old company said it analyzed alternative ways to remain in business, but liquidation was the best option.

"Ultimately, due to the combination of a challenging retail environment and the new reality and uncertainty of a post-Covid world, the company and its advisers determined that an orderly wind-down is the best way to maximize the value of Pier 1's assets," the company said in a press release.”

 

Am I the only one that didn't know they were even still around?

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, kand said:

The ones near me liquidated and closed last year, so I’m thinking they were in the middle of a bankruptcy plan and now want permission to close entirely. (I don’t know much about bankruptcy, but I’m assuming the fact that they have to ask the bankruptcy court for permission indicates they had already filed for bankruptcy before this.)

Yeah.  This has been going on long before COVID. 

[Arcadia]

52 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Am I the only one that didn't know they were even still around?

They started closing stores due to bankruptcy but they still had some stores left. 

[Arcadia]

@sassenach@mathnerd

https://abc7news.com/society/napa-co-1st-in-bay-area-to-be-allowed-to-reopen-dine-in-restaurants/6197510/

“BREAKING: Effective immediately, restaurants in Napa County can reopen for dine-in service if they have made adaptations that meet state guidelines. Schools can also reopen, effective June 1.“

[Arcadia]

14 year old driver https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/2-teens-arrested-after-driving-stolen-vehicle-from-half-moon-bay-to-pacifica/2293053/

“Two teenage boys from the South Bay were arrested after allegedly refusing to yield to an enforcement stop in Half Moon Bay and then driving to Pacifica early Monday morning, according to the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office.

Deputies responded at 3:11 a.m. to a report of a vehicle burglary in progress in the 500 block of Spindrift Way in Half Moon Bay, with suspects reported breaking into a vehicle and then fleeing in a red Honda Civic.

At 3:36 a.m., deputies spotted the Honda heading north in the 9000 block of Cabrillo Highway and tried to pull it over, but the driver did not yield.

The deputies learned the vehicle had been reported stolen out of San Jose, and it was eventually stopped by California Highway Patrol officers in Pacifica, sheriff's officials said.

The driver, a 14-year-old San Jose boy, and a 16-year-old passenger from Gilroy, were taken into custody without incident, then were released to their parents, according to the sheriff's office.”

 

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

@sassenach@mathnerd

https://abc7news.com/society/napa-co-1st-in-bay-area-to-be-allowed-to-reopen-dine-in-restaurants/6197510/

“BREAKING: Effective immediately, restaurants in Napa County can reopen for dine-in service if they have made adaptations that meet state guidelines. Schools can also reopen, effective June 1.“

Schools reopening on June 1st is big news. I would like to see if the rest of the bay area will follow suit or not.

[Arcadia]

49 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Schools reopening on June 1st is big news. I would like to see if the rest of the bay area will follow suit or not.

I doubt my school district would reopen just for one week. However, it would be nice if the high school seniors in our region get their graduation ceremony/party and maybe get to take photos with friends.

[vonfirmath]

57 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I doubt my school district would reopen just for one week. However, it would be nice if the high school seniors in our region get their graduation ceremony/party and maybe get to take photos with friends.

Our elementary school would have liked to open to do Field Day. And let kids see each other, say good bye to teachers. And show off the new library.

Maybe they would have spent the day doing fun stuff. But they would still have liked to open.

[Arcadia]

9 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Our elementary school would have liked to open to do Field Day. And let kids see each other, say good bye to teachers. And show off the new library.

Maybe they would have spent the day doing fun stuff. But they would still have liked to open.

My kids enjoyed field day. However with social distancing measures, the typical field day activities like playing tag and other games at the neighborhood park, end of year concert and party won’t be feasible. 
I do think the 8th graders might be interested to meet and exchange contacts as they spilt up in high school, some to private high schools. School closure was sudden and some might not have time to exchange cellphone/social media information.

[EmseB]

On 5/18/2020 at 8:04 PM, Arcadia said:

Walked to Safeway at around 7pm to buy aquaphor and families are out without masks walking around. My city gave out masks two days ago (5 pieces for adults to share and 10pcs for children to share, and can take another 5 if we have seniors at home ) so it’s not due to lack of masks to wear.

are people really expected to wear masks outside...like outdoors just going for a walk or whatever?

I get mask wearing inside where air is recirculated and not moving at all, but outside the dispersal of any droplets and degradation of virus paricles has to be so quick and effective why would people wear masks outside unless under very specific circumstances?

[Matryoshka]

8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

are people really expected to wear masks outside...like outdoors just going for a walk or whatever?

I get mask wearing inside where air is recirculated and not moving at all, but outside the dispersal of any droplets and degradation of virus paricles has to be so quick and effective why would people wear masks outside unless under very specific circumstances?

(at least here...) You're supposed to wear masks whenever you can't maintain at least a 6-foot distance.  So if you're outside, but there are a lot of other people you're walking past, masks.  If you're pretty much alone or can cross the street, different story.

I've been going running in my neighborhood without a mask.  I live on a country road; there are often people walking, but it's easy to distance. I cross to the other side of the street when I have to pass.  In cities or larger towns on sidewalks or in parks (urban or more rural but crowded, which seems common these days) with lots of people that wouldn't be possible, even though it's still out for a walk or a run.  Parking lots these days can also be pretty crowded outside, especially if there's a line to get in.

So, for me, I wear a mask outside unless it's in my own yard or in my own neighborhood (rural street, no sidewalks even, sparse foot traffic).

Edited May 20, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Arcadia]

9 minutes ago, EmseB said:

 

I get mask wearing inside where air is recirculated and not moving at all, but outside the dispersal of any droplets and degradation of virus paricles has to be so quick and effective why would people wear masks outside unless under very specific circumstances?

I am in a highly densely populated area. Unless people drive the less than a mile distance to the supermarket, we would be passing people often on the walk there and home. Cars are on the road so it’s not easy to walk on the road to avoid people on sidewalks. Add to that people bring their babies out on strollers which I don’t mind, but people pushing strollers need the sidewalk so adults end up on the streets but still less than 6ft from the sidewalk. 

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

I am in a highly densely populated area. Unless people drive the less than a mile distance to the supermarket, we would be passing people often on the walk there and home. Cars are on the road so it’s not easy to walk on the road to avoid people on sidewalks. Add to that people bring their babies out on strollers which I don’t mind, but people pushing strollers need the sidewalk so adults end up on the streets but still less than 6ft from the sidewalk. 

Right, but outdoor air is much different than indoor air. I have only read a couple of those 6ft studies and most don't seem to account for the dispersion of particles and how fast that occurs outside. If you're outside, unless you're right in someone's face, any droplets would disperse almost immediately and any virus particles would be degraded almost immediately as well. It's not like we're walking into fog clouds of other people's droplets unless we're talking about being inside in a very specific sort of environment. I think of it like putting an eye dropper of blue dye into a bathtub vs the ocean. In an ocean, you're not going to get enough dye on you to cause an issue unless you're right next to the dropper, and maybe not even then.

Honestly I would not expect people to be wearing masks just going for a walk even if passing on the sidewalk. I am not anti mask by any stretch, but that seems unnecessary to me given what we know about outdoor transmission. I might be worried about a stadium type scenario where air can kind of stagnate and there are a lot of people right next to each other...but not just passing people outdoors. Maybe if you're talking about NYC-style crowded sidewalks?

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Right, but outdoor air is much different than indoor air. I have only read a couple of those 6ft studies and most don't seem to account for the dispersion of particles and how fast that occurs outside. If you're outside, unless you're right in someone's face, any droplets would disperse almost immediately and any virus particles would be degraded almost immediately as well. It's not like we're walking into fog clouds of other people's droplets unless we're talking about being inside in a very specific sort of environment. I think of it like putting an eye dropper of blue dye into a bathtub vs the ocean. In an ocean, you're not going to get enough dye on you to cause an issue unless you're right next to the dropper, and maybe not even then.

Honestly I would not expect people to be wearing masks just going for a walk even if passing on the sidewalk. I am not anti mask by any stretch, but that seems unnecessary to me given what we know about outdoor transmission. I might be worried about a stadium type scenario where air can kind of stagnate and there are a lot of people right next to each other...but not just passing people outdoors. Maybe if you're talking about NYC-style crowded sidewalks?

It doesn't matter if you feel like it's reasonable or not.  It's easy enough to follow what is the current regulation where she lives.

[EmseB]

21 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

It doesn't matter if you feel like it's reasonable or not.  It's easy enough to follow what is the current regulation where she lives.

Jean, I don't know if you have a beef with me for some reason, but I can discuss this on a message board, right? The relative risks of people going out without masks in outdoor spaces? I don't care if you disagree with me but I feel like for some reason anytime you post in my general direction it seems aimed to shut me down. I'm probably imagining that.

In any case, a government regulation for everyone to wear a mask to go on a walk outside would be pretty silly and not necessarily backed by any sort of science.

[mathnerd]

16 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I doubt my school district would reopen just for one week. However, it would be nice if the high school seniors in our region get their graduation ceremony/party and maybe get to take photos with friends.

I was hoping that they could reopen in June just for the graduation ceremonies because it is such a big deal for most high school kids. And it could also be useful for the other kids to return their textbooks, musical instruments or clean out their lockers.

[Lanny]

Our SIP (Shelter in Place) was extended again, yesterday. I think the 3rd or 4th (?) time for those under 70. Previously, the extensions were for 14 days, each time. This time is only for one week. For those of us over 70, it was extended from the end of May to the end of June.

The emergency was extended from the end of May (?) to the end of August.

I believe they are beginning to permit more activities here in Colombia now, but still from my understanding they are very strict, compared to most of the USA.

No airline flights, Domestic or International are permitted. When they begin to open that up it will be in 5 steps and International flights will be Step #4.

No going into a restaurant and sitting down and  being served as in the old days. Call and order and     then go to pick up your order when it's ready or have them deliver to your house.

No (or very few) buses between cities.

My Stepson is our designated shopper. His designated time this week was Monday morning. It depends upon the last digit of the persons "Cedula" (national identity card).   There was a man there without a Mask over his face/nose in the supermarket.  They were raising hell with him. I told DW "they should have taken his picture and banned him from the store for life". She replied, "all they needed to do was call the police".  

[vonfirmath]

7 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I was hoping that they could reopen in June just for the graduation ceremonies because it is such a big deal for most high school kids. And it could also be useful for the other kids to return their textbooks, musical instruments or clean out their lockers.

 

Our schools did return textbooks and musical instruments already in a social distancing manner.

there are no lockers to clean out.  Teachers bagged up the student's items in their desk/left behind in athletics and had them available when we went to return textbooks/library books to pick up.

[Arcadia]

9 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I was hoping that they could reopen in June just for the graduation ceremonies because it is such a big deal for most high school kids. And it could also be useful for the other kids to return their textbooks, musical instruments or clean out their lockers.

Ours have already cleaned out their lockers before school closure. Musical instruments are rented or bought privately by parents so nothing to return to school. 

Textbooks returning and borrowing in end May/early June might be possible without schools reopening. Similar to the school lunch distribution system currently in place. 
 

ETA:

Textbooks are usually loaned out in summer for the next academic year so kids can do their summer homework.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Arcadia

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Jean, I don't know if you have a beef with me for some reason, but I can discuss this on a message board, right? The relative risks of people going out without masks in outdoor spaces? I don't care if you disagree with me but I feel like for some reason anytime you post in my general direction it seems aimed to shut me down. I'm probably imagining that.

In any case, a government regulation for everyone to wear a mask to go on a walk outside would be pretty silly and not necessarily backed by any sort of science.

??

I haven't seen Jean try to shut anyone down. She might disagree with you, but stating her case for what she believes is right isn't a personal attack. 

I do think that some of the things she says have been deliberately misconstrued lately.

[Matryoshka]

Just now, CuriousMomof3 said:

I feel as though, if it's not safe for us to be in a classroom with 25 kids, graduation with 100s and their families makes no sense.  It would undo everything we've just worked towards by being home.  

A school that's local to us is having teachers line the driveway with cars, decorated to cheer on the seniors, and seniors and their families will drive through, stay in the car, and get handed their diploma through the window.  I read about a school that is doing graduation at a drive in theater, with everyone staying in their cars, and a video that shows each graduate walking in their cap and gown in the socially distanced location of their choice, and their name, and speeches.  Those kind of solutions seem reasonable to me. But regular graduation seems risky.

A high school in New Hampshire had a really out-of-the-box idea.  They're having their graduation at the top of a ski mountain.  The kids take the ski lift up one at a time, they get their diploma and some pics at the top (I'm assuming with proper protection protocols), then they take the lift back down, as the next kid gets off...  no spectators, obviously, but certainly cooler than just getting the diploma in the mail...

[Matryoshka]

5 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

That's awesome!  It would be nice if their parents could ride up with them.  

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that - I'm not sure if they'll allow that or not; I only know the quick synopsis I saw on the local news station ... let me see if I can find more info... 

This article makes a passing reference to the seniors going to the summit 'with their families', so it sounds like that might actually be the plan...  I'll assume you can only bring two family members per student, or as many as will fit on one lift seat.

I'll agree with that article that this "Plan B" is actually a bit cooler than the normal football field thing they do!

Edited May 20, 2020 by Matryoshka

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

??

I haven't seen Jean try to shut anyone down. She might disagree with you, but stating her case for what she believes is right isn't a personal attack. 

I do think that some of the things she says have been deliberately misconstrued lately.

It's not attacking per se. I shouldn't have brought it up. It does feel personal in a way I can't articulate. And I disagree with a lot of people on this board! I spent a lot of time posting about the concerns of people not wearing masks outside. One line that basically says, well it doesn't matter because the government says they have to...okay? Feels dismissive when I read it.

But whatever, like I said, shouldn't have brought it up because now I'm explaining myself way too much.

[Donna]

Our state enters phase 2 of re-opening on Monday. According to the order we will no longer be shelter in place. Public playgrounds will not be open but day camps, overnight camps, and daycare centers will be open.

Can anyone explain how playing at a public playground is more risky than spending the entire day with others (who could potentially be infected)? I seriously do not understand how they go about assessing risk and deciding what is open and what is not. Especially since, according to the New York Post today, the CDC just came out saying the virus is not spread from surfaces...so glad everyone has been sanitizing everything that comes into the house.

Also under phase 2 restaurants and hair salons will be able to open at 50% capacity.

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, Donna said:

Our state enters phase 2 of re-opening on Monday. According to the order we will no longer be shelter in place. Public playgrounds will not be open but day camps, overnight camps, and daycare centers will be open.

Can anyone explain how playing at a public playground is more risky than spending the entire day with others (who could potentially be infected)? I seriously do not understand how they go about assessing risk and deciding what is open and what is not. Especially since, according to the New York Post today, the CDC just came out saying the virus is not spread from surfaces...so glad everyone has been sanitizing everything that comes into the house.

Also under phase 2 restaurants and hair salons will be able to open at 50% capacity.

Public playgrounds do not have people in charge who are making sure that kids are maintaining social distancing. 

[Arcadia]

6 minutes ago, Donna said:

 

Can anyone explain how playing at a public playground is more risky than spending the entire day with others (who could potentially be infected)?

Contact tracing is much easier for daycare and camps than playgrounds.

[Donna]

5 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Public playgrounds do not have people in charge who are making sure that kids are maintaining social distancing. 

Parents?

I have driven past a local daycare and the children outside were not social distancing and no one was wearing a mask.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Donna

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, Donna said:

Parents?

I have driven past a local daycare and the children outside were not social distancing and no one was wearing a mask.

A lot of parents, at least here, do not step in to actively parent their kids especially if the kids are in a group where they might have to police other people's kids too in order to maintain something like social distancing.  Anyway. . .  you asked why it might be different.  That was my feeling of why it might be.  Of course I don't know the reasoning of your actual state officials. 

ETA:  I'm starting to think that it wasn't really a question but was a way of complaining? 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[vonfirmath]

45 minutes ago, Donna said:

Parents?

I have driven past a local daycare and the children outside were not social distancing and no one was wearing a mask.

The way daycares in Texas are being run -- the daycare "room" becomes a family. Always the same children/one teacher but they don't social distance from each other. they just don't interact with the other children at the center, etc.

 

[Donna]

8 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

The way daycares in Texas are being run -- the daycare "room" becomes a family. Always the same children/one teacher but they don't social distance from each other. they just don't interact with the other children at the center, etc.

 

I drove past, was stopped at the light where the daycare is on the corner, one daycare last week (probably open for children of essential workers). The playground outside the daycare was full of children of all ages (which is why I think it was probably for children of essential workers)...kids on playground equipment, kids sitting together at picnic tables, kids playing with balls, etc.... It's a very small playground/outside area and there were at least 25 children plus six adults out there.

Possibly one classroom? Maybe the entire daycare is a "family"?

[Bootsie]

9 hours ago, Donna said:

Our state enters phase 2 of re-opening on Monday. According to the order we will no longer be shelter in place. Public playgrounds will not be open but day camps, overnight camps, and daycare centers will be open.

Can anyone explain how playing at a public playground is more risky than spending the entire day with others (who could potentially be infected)? I seriously do not understand how they go about assessing risk and deciding what is open and what is not. Especially since, according to the New York Post today, the CDC just came out saying the virus is not spread from surfaces...so glad everyone has been sanitizing everything that comes into the house.

Also under phase 2 restaurants and hair salons will be able to open at 50% capacity.

If I am around someone who is contagious for 8 hours rather than 5 minutes, I am at more risk of being infected.  However, if I am around 15 people all day long, rather than 50 people coming and going at a public park, I am less likely to come across someone who is infected.  If, unfortunately, it is determined that one of the children at a daycare center is infected, it is much easier to contact trace who was in that class than who the other people at the park at the same time were.  Daycares have soap and water and other cleaning protocols in place that can be much more difficult at a public playground.  

There is also a cost and benefit to each decision.  Opening daycares means that parents who are essential workers can go to work.  

[Bootsie]

22 minutes ago, Donna said:

I drove past, was stopped at the light where the daycare is on the corner, one daycare last week (probably open for children of essential workers). The playground outside the daycare was full of children of all ages (which is why I think it was probably for children of essential workers)...kids on playground equipment, kids sitting together at picnic tables, kids playing with balls, etc.... It's a very small playground/outside area and there were at least 25 children plus six adults out there.

Possibly one classroom? Maybe the entire daycare is a "family"?

Wow.  What would strike me as highly unusual about that situation is that you had 1 adult for every 4-5 kids.  In my state, that would be far below the requirements except for infants that would be too small to be out playing anyway.   

[Laura Corin]

Scotland has published its route map for exiting lockdown, starting from 28 May, with each phase probably taking three weeks (but shorter or longer based on changing data).  We are also warned that there could be steps back if the data deteriorate.  The summary is from page 37 onwards.

covid-19-framework-decision-making-scotlands-route-map-through-out-crisis(1).pdf

Edited May 21, 2020 by Laura Corin

[sassenach]

20 hours ago, EmseB said:

Right, but outdoor air is much different than indoor air. I have only read a couple of those 6ft studies and most don't seem to account for the dispersion of particles and how fast that occurs outside. If you're outside, unless you're right in someone's face, any droplets would disperse almost immediately and any virus particles would be degraded almost immediately as well. It's not like we're walking into fog clouds of other people's droplets unless we're talking about being inside in a very specific sort of environment. I think of it like putting an eye dropper of blue dye into a bathtub vs the ocean. In an ocean, you're not going to get enough dye on you to cause an issue unless you're right next to the dropper, and maybe not even then.

Honestly I would not expect people to be wearing masks just going for a walk even if passing on the sidewalk. I am not anti mask by any stretch, but that seems unnecessary to me given what we know about outdoor transmission. I might be worried about a stadium type scenario where air can kind of stagnate and there are a lot of people right next to each other...but not just passing people outdoors. Maybe if you're talking about NYC-style crowded sidewalks?

You’re right, but I think the idea of masks if you are within 6ft of a person is to emphasize the physical distance, even if that risk does change depending on the environment. And if this experience has taught me anything it’s that people really cannot handle the critical thinking involved in assessing risk from situation to situation. The playbook needs to be simple and stable. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

You’re right, but I think the idea of masks if you are within 6ft of a person is to emphasize the physical distance, even if that risk does change depending on the environment. And if this experience has taught me anything it’s that people really cannot handle the critical thinking involved in assessing risk from situation to situation. The playbook needs to be simple and stable. 

I am in a state that has had less than 2000 cases per million, and less than half of the cases that have been confirmed are currently active.  In fact, the current number of active, confirmed cases in my state is 681/million.  So we would have to have 15 times as many people as currently known infected to be contagious and walking around right now for there to be a 1/100 chance that someone I pass on the street is contagious.  So, if I passed 100 people and one were infected, I would have to have that person's droplets flow through the air and infect me.  The risk seems extremely small to me.  

I agree that the playbook needs to be simple.  In most areas, however, given our current level of understanding about the virus and the use of masks, a simple rule of masks in indoor situations but not required in outdoor situations seems reasonable to me. 

[EmseB]

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 its foolish to go without a mask outdoors if you are withing 15 feet of someone.

Do you mean indoors? Or do you know something about outdoor transmission that would make this true?

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Do you mean indoors? Or do you know something about outdoor transmission that would make this true?

The studies about the exhalation spread of runners‘ breath and about the distance droplets spread with coughs and sneezes outside lend some support to her idea. I have smelled the breath of a runner going past on a sidewalk enough in normal times that it gives me pause about exercising during high traffic times. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I just looked for the studies...only saw references to them on a quick google. Essentially runners can create a draft that pulls the droplets up to 15 feet behind them. IIRC scientists in Belgium as well in the US came to similar conclusions on the point when they did modeling.

[EmseB]

34 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I just looked for the studies...only saw references to them on a quick google. Essentially runners can create a draft that pulls the droplets up to 15 feet behind them. IIRC scientists in Belgium as well in the US came to similar conclusions on the point when they did modeling.

Yes, that can happen. Are we talking about a model of people's respirations and how they spread out, or a model of actually transmitting the disease? Because air movement is part of that, along with degredation of and dispersal of viral particles out of doors, along with viral load and how much virus one would have to directly inhale to get sick. I just feel like we're on the verge (or some people already are) of treating this thing like The Mist from a Stephen King novel coming out of people's mouths, and illnesses that spread via respiratory droplets don't really work quite that way out of doors.

I am worried about places where air circulation is poor, non-existent, or recirculated, especially if I have to be in them for more than a few minutes. But to be worried about passing people on the street outside makes not a lot of sense to me with what I know about the science, unless they are coughing or sneezing on you as they go by.

And before anyone asks, yes I do think there is a societal cost to a lot of people trying to stay 15 feet or 6 feet away from each other all the time, and viewing people's breathing or talking as problematic, but I already foresee the summary dismissal of mental health concerns, so no need to do that if you're gonna. 

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Yes, that can happen. Are we talking about a model of people's respirations and how they spread out, or a model of actually transmitting the disease? Because air movement is part of that, along with degredation of and dispersal of viral particles out of doors, along with viral load and how much virus one would have to directly inhale to get sick. I just feel like we're on the verge (or some people already are) of treating this thing like The Mist from a Stephen King novel coming out of people's mouths, and illnesses that spread via respiratory droplets don't really work quite that way out of doors.

I am worried about places where air circulation is poor, non-existent, or recirculated, especially if I have to be in them for more than a few minutes. But to be worried about passing people on the street outside makes not a lot of sense to me with what I know about the science, unless they are coughing or sneezing on you as they go by.

And before anyone asks, yes I do think there is a societal cost to a lot of people trying to stay 15 feet or 6 feet away from each other all the time, and viewing people's breathing or talking as problematic, but I already foresee the summary dismissal of mental health concerns, so no need to do that if you're gonna. 

I agree that for a split second encounter, the bolded is the bigger issue. But, you can't predict when someone is going to do that, hence wanting people you walk by to please have a mask on. 

But in general, transmission seems to be via prolonged exposure, looking at closer to an hour say, not minutes. 

[EmseB]

9 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I agree that for a split second encounter, the bolded is the bigger issue. But, you can't predict when someone is going to do that, hence wanting people you walk by to please have a mask on. 

But in general, transmission seems to be via prolonged exposure, looking at closer to an hour say, not minutes. 

Maybe you can't predict that, but I have never been sneezed or coughed on by a grown adult in my entire life that I can think of just walking down the street. I'm sure there's going to be a dozen people now coming out of the woodwork to say that it happened to them, lol, but IMO, if someone is sneezing or coughing directly in your face while you're walking down the street then there are bigger issues going on.

I'll put here what I accidentaly put in the other thread:

Masks aren't exactly comfortable, though, IME, and I don't think they are necessary just for being outside given the sheer volume of air outside. I live in a place where it is routinely 100*+ outside in the summertime and masking in that kind of weather is punishing. I think it is worth discussing if it is necessary.

I'm not arguing against masks. I would like a mask policy that makes sense and puts as few restrictions as possible on people because I think ultimately that gets you greater compliance overall when it comes to public health. I would like to not scare people into compliance because I think that ultimately backfires. I think we are still paying for the huge amount of messaging that went out in the beginning that told people healthy people shouldn't wear masks, so I think extra care should be taken with regards to any widespread messaging about actions that need to be taken by individuals.

I think if we're talking about population centers where there are just masses of people walking down the sidewalk together shoulder to shoulder as a part of a commute (like NYC) then maybe it makes sense to have people masking routinely outside. Maybe. But in most places? Probably not necessary.

[Laura Corin]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I can only say that I am once again astounded by how densely populated some areas seem to be.

If I were to walk to my closest gas station, which I have done in the past, it's about a 15 minute walk,  I would be likely to pass perhaps a single person, walking their dog.  Other than briefly passing someone for a moment, I just can't imagine being within 15 feet of any person while out on a walk, for longer than it takes to come up and pass someone.  I can't imagine living in a place where there are so many people that walking within 15 feet of someone long enough to worry about breathing the same air as them is a genuine concern.  

Calvin lives in Oxford. He tried to walk by the river today, but the path was so crowded he went home. It's much less busy where I live in rural Scotland.

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I can only say that I am once again astounded by how densely populated some areas seem to be.

If I were to walk to my closest gas station, which I have done in the past, it's about a 15 minute walk,  I would be likely to pass perhaps a single person, walking their dog.  Other than briefly passing someone for a moment, I just can't imagine being within 15 feet of any person while out on a walk, for longer than it takes to come up and pass someone.  I can't imagine living in a place where there are so many people that walking within 15 feet of someone long enough to worry about breathing the same air as them is a genuine concern.  

Which is why is most areas the regulations are only for masking indoors.  It's only in certain populated areas with corresponding high rates of infection that the government has expanded that to include outdoors as well. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

 

I have lived in midwestern suburbia nearly my entire life.  That is just way more people than I can actually visualize in one place.  The exception being super extra crowded events/places like a state fair, or an amusement park like Kings Island or something.  I wonder if living in those places is like being at Kings Island every day or something.  (my head would totally explode lol)

Yes, it's like that.  Have you never watched TV footage of places like New York or other big cities?