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Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE


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2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I had dinner last night with two physicians--both who have treated COVID-19 patients.  Both have had colleagues who have been infected.  One is affiliated with a major university teaching hospital.  Neither thought masks for the general public and outside of medical settings was helpful.  In fact, they had concerns about it.  They felt that people were touching their noses and eyes more; they were concerned of mold and other build-up on the masks, and they were concerned about contamination as people took off the masks and laid them down and then put them on again.  They felt that being as healthy as possible was important in case you should become infected because your outcome was likely to be better; one way to promote good health was a lot of fresh, outdoor air, in their opinion.  Their attitude was that, if it makes people feel better, masking indoors in public places is OK, but they thought masking outdoors was actually counterproductive.   When there are some in the medical field who have studied the matter and they are of the opinion that it isn't really helpful, it is easy to see why some in the general public are not pushing masks. 

I have a friend in the medical profession who thinks almost identically.  Interesting!

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So, I don't know about other states, but in NY you're only supposed to wear a mask when you're near people (whether inside or outside.) So you are certainly able to take walks outside and breathe fresh air, as long as you aren't near anyone else... 

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7 hours ago, DoraBora said:

People in your town are yelling at you about wearing a mask?  Where do you live?  I'm a native Texan, and though every person in our state is imperfect, it's been my experience that we're a pretty friendly bunch.  That is very sad and I'm sorry you're experiencing such hostility!

You probably know this, but masks and distancing cannot legally be enforced by any city or county in Texas, per Gov. Abbott's order.  I think that's a good thing, though you probably disagree.  I wouldn't yell at you about our differences of opinion, nor would I suggest you leave.  🙂

 

I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin. My husband is a native Texan from another small town in Victoria county, and his friends there are reporting the same thing; being challenged and insulted while wearing a mask at the store.  These are also native Texans.  

Up until covid, people in these towns were super nice and friendly.  It was one of the best parts of living here and made life very stress-free. Since covid, I've seen some of the most horrendous, rude behavior I've ever witnessed in my entire life.  Like, a woman screaming at the clerk at the post office because the 6 ft social distance markers on the floor made the line too long, and people yelling at each other in HEB over lord knows what.  It was loud enough that the entire front of the store stopped and stared. 

I've been called a socialist, a nazi, a "sheeple". I was also the topic of a lecture from a homeschool dad at the store to his son.  The kid recognized me but the dad did not.  I felt bad for the kid because he looked mortified as his dad banged on about how people like me don't have critical thinking skills and react only to fear, like an animal. 

I'm not sure why you brought up legal enforcement or why you assume what my stance would be on that matter.  It feels like you are trying to bait me into an argument about the constitutionality of this situation, and I'm not interested in that fight. 

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2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin. My husband is a native Texan from another small town in Victoria county, and his friends there are reporting the same thing; being challenged and insulted while wearing a mask at the store.  These are also native Texans.  

Up until covid, people in these towns were super nice and friendly.  It was one of the best parts of living here and made life very stress-free. Since covid, I've seen some of the most horrendous, rude behavior I've ever witnessed in my entire life.  Like, a woman screaming at the clerk at the post office because the 6 ft social distance markers on the floor made the line too long, and people yelling at each other in HEB over lord knows what.  It was loud enough that the entire front of the store stopped and stared. 

I've been called a socialist, a nazi, a "sheeple". I was also the topic of a lecture from a homeschool dad at the store to his son.  The kid recognized me but the dad did not.  I felt bad for the kid because he looked mortified as his dad banged on about how people like me don't have critical thinking skills and react only to fear, like an animal. 

I'm not sure why you brought up legal enforcement or why you assume what my stance would be on that matter.  It feels like you are trying to bait me into an argument about the constitutionality of this situation, and I'm not interested in that fight. 

 

Oh, I am sorry :-(. That sounds very fraught and stressful. I can't tell you how much I wish that this hadn't become a political issue. 

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2 hours ago, Frances said:

But isn’t opening up primarily about indoor things like businesses? My liberal state is only requiring masks on public transportation and for store employees in customer facing businesses, since they are being exposed to so many people during their shifts. Stores can require masks for customers, in order to help protect their employees, but the government is not. And certainly they are not requiring masks at state parks, beaches, etc. They are asking people to maintain social distancing as much as possible, while gradually allowing larger groups, but asking, not requiring, people to wear masks when that is difficult. So primarily indoors.

While I understand the concerns you mention, I would not go so far as to say they have studied it. It sounds like they have thought about it and reached their conclusions, but not performed an actual study. It also seems like most of their concerns could be addressed with good public health campaigns. I think that’s why it likely works so well in some Asian countries. Everyone is getting the same consistent message, it’s not so location dependent as it is in the US.

When I said that they had studied the issue I did not mean that they had personally conducted a study on the use of masks by the general public.  What I meant was that they have studied existing literature and knowledge base regarding masks, lung health, epidemiology, etc. and do not believe that mask wearing by the general population is helpful and may create additional problems, especially when it is done while people are spending time outdoors.  They are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated people who are sincerely wanting what is best for their patients, their colleagues, and themselves.  I do not know if their analysis is correct or not.  But, I do not think it is correct to conclude that people who are not pushing for mask wearing are into conspiracy theories, don't believe COVID-19 exists, are uncaring, have political motivations, or some of the other statements I have been seeing being made.   

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Just now, Bootsie said:

When I said that they had studied the issue I did not mean that they had personally conducted a study on the use of masks by the general public.  What I meant was that they have studied existing literature and knowledge base regarding masks, lung health, epidemiology, etc. and do not believe that mask wearing by the general population is helpful and may create additional problems, especially when it is done while people are spending time outdoors.  They are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated people who are sincerely wanting what is best for their patients, their colleagues, and themselves.  I do not know if their analysis is correct or not.  But, I do not think it is correct to conclude that people who are not pushing for mask wearing are into conspiracy theories, don't believe COVID-19 exists, are uncaring, have political motivations, or some of the other statements I have been seeing being made.   

As far as I know, mask wearing outdoors is more in areas where there is dense population. In my liberal state, it’s not required outdoors at all. And I think people are not wearing or advocating for masks for all sorts of reasons. It sounds like your friends have carefully examined the issue and have the background to do so. Like anything else, I’m not sure that can be said of everyone out there.

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

Oh, I am sorry :-(. That sounds very fraught and stressful. I can't tell you how much I wish that this hadn't become a political issue. 

 

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

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32 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin. My husband is a native Texan from another small town in Victoria county, and his friends there are reporting the same thing; being challenged and insulted while wearing a mask at the store.  These are also native Texans.  

Up until covid, people in these towns were super nice and friendly.  It was one of the best parts of living here and made life very stress-free. Since covid, I've seen some of the most horrendous, rude behavior I've ever witnessed in my entire life.  Like, a woman screaming at the clerk at the post office because the 6 ft social distance markers on the floor made the line too long, and people yelling at each other in HEB over lord knows what.  It was loud enough that the entire front of the store stopped and stared. 

I've been called a socialist, a nazi, a "sheeple". I was also the topic of a lecture from a homeschool dad at the store to his son.  The kid recognized me but the dad did not.  I felt bad for the kid because he looked mortified as his dad banged on about how people like me don't have critical thinking skills and react only to fear, like an animal. 

I'm not sure why you brought up legal enforcement or why you assume what my stance would be on that matter.  It feels like you are trying to bait me into an argument about the constitutionality of this situation, and I'm not interested in that fight. 

I'm very sorry you have had these experiences.  I should have known better than to include info about being a native and expecting people to be (generally) kind here.  I've traveled a fair bit, and most people (at least everywhere I've been) are generally kind, though in times of great stress, anger (which is often just fear acting out) does surface.

I brought up legal enforcement only because you mentioned that your town is planning a public Independence Day celebration at which you said masks and distancing are recommended but won't be enforced.  I gathered, perhaps incorrectly, that you thought this unwise, so I pointed out that your town cannot legally enforce either.

It really isn't my style to try to bait anyone into an argument.  I'm not a hostile person.  I just thought I was sharing my point of view and I apologize for making you angry.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'd still like all the thoughtful, intelligent people to make some other suggestions re high density public transport.

I am not joking when I say the current advice here (where masks are not even mentioned) is 'don't take public transport'.

I want actual suggestions, from the mask pooh-pooh'ers, for safety on city buses, trams and trains.

Public transportation is the only time it’s required in my state for the general population.

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3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I had dinner last night with two physicians--both who have treated COVID-19 patients.  Both have had colleagues who have been infected.  One is affiliated with a major university teaching hospital.  Neither thought masks for the general public and outside of medical settings was helpful.  In fact, they had concerns about it.  They felt that people were touching their noses and eyes more; they were concerned of mold and other build-up on the masks, and they were concerned about contamination as people took off the masks and laid them down and then put them on again.  They felt that being as healthy as possible was important in case you should become infected because your outcome was likely to be better; one way to promote good health was a lot of fresh, outdoor air, in their opinion.  Their attitude was that, if it makes people feel better, masking indoors in public places is OK, but they thought masking outdoors was actually counterproductive.   When there are some in the medical field who have studied the matter and they are of the opinion that it isn't really helpful, it is easy to see why some in the general public are not pushing masks. 

It's very likely that you'll hear different opinions from different doctors.  But there's the other side too.  My brother is a pulmonary research doctor at one of the nation's leading hospitals, and he does encourage wearing cloth face masks when in close contact with others, as does his entire institution.  He was actually one of the lead research doctors working with scientists across the country on what type of materials found at home would provide some protection.  Now, it could be we'll find information down the road that proves it's not as helpful as we'd hoped, but for now, based on a lot of scientific minds, this seems to be a good option to try when there is actually nothing else at all (besides a complete lock-down).  And, such an easy thing to do.

If your child was dying and the doctor said, I have something he can try that could very well help him a lot and will absolutely do no harm at all, and that ongoing studies show is helpful even though it's not 100% proven yet, wouldn't you try it?

Also, even if you might not be finding the "official" studies you're looking for, you can be sure these studies are being done.  They're just being done at a fast pace and so don't follow the usual protocol.  

My brother also studies droplet spread, and what current conditions in a person make them less likely to become seriously ill.  He's very involved.

ETA:  I meant to add that I know you weren't stating that what you heard was your opinion, so I don't mean to get down on you!  Just responding to what the doctor friends of yours were saying.  These are such crazy times and we hear so many things...  So I wanted to present the other side.

Sorry, another ETA:  If it makes any difference, my brother is a Republican and a conservative Christian and probably voted for Trump, and he still strongly supports face masks.  🙂 

Edited by J-rap
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10 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

FWIW, I'm not insisting on that.  (You may be talking about someone else.)  I'm just surprised that you are quietly going about your business in a mask and that your fellow small-town citizens are calling you names and yelling at you.  I believe you, it's just mind-boggling.

Again, I'm sorry that has happened to you.

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27 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

When I said that they had studied the issue I did not mean that they had personally conducted a study on the use of masks by the general public.  What I meant was that they have studied existing literature and knowledge base regarding masks, lung health, epidemiology, etc. and do not believe that mask wearing by the general population is helpful and may create additional problems, especially when it is done while people are spending time outdoors.  They are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated people who are sincerely wanting what is best for their patients, their colleagues, and themselves.  I do not know if their analysis is correct or not.  But, I do not think it is correct to conclude that people who are not pushing for mask wearing are into conspiracy theories, don't believe COVID-19 exists, are uncaring, have political motivations, or some of the other statements I have been seeing being made.   

I suppose I'd need to ask what their political affiliation to get more of a sense on the bolded ;-). I don't think you need to be a sheep or a conspiracy theorist to want your political party to be in the right. Of course, if that doesn't match here, I withdraw my objection. I just know this to be a confirmation bias I occasionally have. 

As for studying the literature, I'm going to default to my original opinion, which is that doctors are in my experience don't have to use complicated math day to day and don't tend to be people who are very numerically proficient in the first place. (Pre-med student have a certain reputation with people teaching calculus, lol.) So I would guess they aren't getting more out of the studies than I am. 

I am not assuming they aren't well-intentioned, by the way. I'm just don't know if they are more qualified than anyone else to judge. And if they are right, I'm going to be disappointed, because it's going to be either masks or social distancing, and I would personally prefer masks. 

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22 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

 

And for the record, as I've mentioned, I do have a (liberal) former friend who is convinced this is all a hoax and she was VERY negative on mask wearing. So it definitely happens all over the place, not just in red states. 

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6 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I am sorry. Can your town be called in Texas speak as "podunk" town that even locals from urban areas sneeringly and not so politely refer to as. 

I would also seek to understand why people are feeling that way and look at demographics and cases. In TX not every county has COVID as you probably know. There are like 20 plus counties last I checked not reporting a case . Is it a little town with more cows than people kinda town ?  If social distancing automatically happens because you have so much land and you can't see your neighbor and the number of cases low people might think it happens in the big cities only. Yes, I know the argument about people passing by and rural hospitals not being equipped and agree with it. But who is not wearing a mask ? A store clerk should. Not a lonely farmer harvesting in his field. Lastly, what is your temperature ? People barely wear any clothes in summer here, even us. Asking people to wear a mask when it is going to be difficult when it is heading towards repeated days in the 90s or even 100s. 

I am not an expert more a novice in stats. So here are the latest. 

https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/3f048ced32804271aafe8b9640bcb4a7

 

My county only has about 125 cumulative cases. I think my town has less than 10.  So yes, the odds are extremely low that I will contract covid.  And I would not blink about a farmer not wearing a mask here, because why would s/he? I visited outside with a friend a few weeks ago, and we did not wear masks.  We just stayed 6 feet apart and stood so the wind was blowing away from us.  No issues there.

But inside a store like Walgreens, yes, wear a mask.  Walgreens is small. Maybe you don't need to wear a mask inside a big store, like Home Depot where there is good air circulation and people can spread out.  

I'm too grumpy right now to fully articulate my thoughts, but briefly, my position is this: not every place is NYC and Long Island, and not every place is rural Texas. Whatever guidelines are issued by government should take into consideration what is happening in those locations, with the understanding that guidelines may need to change depending on the developing situation.   

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

And for the record, as I've mentioned, I do have a (liberal) former friend who is convinced this is all a hoax and she was VERY negative on mask wearing. So it definitely happens all over the place, not just in red states. 

 

Agreed. I have family in Nassau and Suffolk counties in NY.  They commute into NYC for work and are convinced the whole thing is exaggerated or a hoax, and there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. 

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2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

Agreed. I have family in Nassau and Suffolk counties in NY.  They commute into NYC for work and are convinced the whole thing is exaggerated or a hoax, and there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. 

 

Oh, that's depressing :-(. People do mostly seem to be wearing masks, so I hope we have good buy in on average. Assuming that masks do turn out to help, they'll probably be pretty important in the coming year. 

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2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

My county only has about 125 cumulative cases. I think my town has less than 10.  So yes, the odds are extremely low that I will contract covid.  And I would not blink about a farmer not wearing a mask here, because why would s/he? I visited outside with a friend a few weeks ago, and we did not wear masks.  We just stayed 6 feet apart and stood so the wind was blowing away from us.  No issues there.

But inside a store like Walgreens, yes, wear a mask.  Walgreens is small. Maybe you don't need to wear a mask inside a big store, like Home Depot where there is good air circulation and people can spread out.  

I'm too grumpy right now to fully articulate my thoughts, but briefly, my position is this: not every place is NYC and Long Island, and not every place is rural Texas. Whatever guidelines are issued by government should take into consideration what is happening in those locations, with the understanding that guidelines may need to change depending on the developing situation.   

I think people are looking at cases and getting complacent ? We need more campaigns that explain clearly what are the risks ? For instance how many people are even aware of the singing danger. I live in an urban metro and while it is no NY, as expected in a denser demographic, we have a large number of cases. So people here mask up a lot. What I see more often is people wearing masks and not covering up their noses. Now what is the use of that ? 

I think county wise guidelines are the best with things like masks and closures, perhaps state level.  People should not be weaponizing or politicizing this though. I am sorry though for the response you got. That bothers me most of all. 

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12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I think people are looking at cases and getting complacent ? We need more campaigns that explain clearly what are the risks ? For instance how many people are even aware of the singing danger. I live in an urban metro and while it is no NY, as expected in a denser demographic, we have a large number of cases. So people here mask up a lot. What I see more often is people wearing masks and not covering up their noses. Now what is the use of that ? 

I think county wise guidelines are the best with things like masks and closures, perhaps state level.  People should not be weaponizing or politicizing this though. I am sorry though for the response you got. That bothers me most of all. 

While I agree with county and state level guidelines, I don’t think strong, consistent federal messages on how to wear masks properly and why they are important for successful re-opening and leading by example would hurt at all.

Edited by Frances
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20 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I'm very sorry you have had these experiences.  I should have known better than to include info about being a native and expecting people to be (generally) kind here.  I've traveled a fair bit, and most people (at least everywhere I've been) are generally kind, though in times of great stress, anger (which is often just fear acting out) does surface.

I brought up legal enforcement only because you mentioned that your town is planning a public Independence Day celebration at which you said masks and distancing are recommended but won't be enforced.  I gathered, perhaps incorrectly, that you thought this unwise, so I pointed out that your town cannot legally enforce either.

It really isn't my style to try to bait anyone into an argument.  I'm not a hostile person.  I just thought I was sharing my point of view and I apologize for making you angry.

 

 

 

 

I think the parade and fireworks show is a bad idea from the start. Philadelphia demonstrated that 100+ years ago. If they insist on going forward with a parade, then they are going to need to either limit viewing or extend the route, so everyone can spread out.  They don't want to do either of those things, so the only other option would be to have everyone wear a mask.  They don't want to do that either. Basically, everyone wants life to be like it was before and they don't want to have to think about covid at all.  When presented with any option to adjust to the situation, people have complained "But that's not how we've traditionally done it!" or "You can't force us to do that!" 

We have a chicken processing plant here that, so far, has not been impacted by covid. I am very worried for the people that work there.  Our local hospital has *NINE* ICU beds and will not be able to handle it if an outbreak occurs at the chicken plant. It's probably social distancing, the weather, and a bit of luck that has kept an outbreak from popping up there.  If we go forward with large public gatherings and take zero precautions, then we may not be so lucky any longer. 

 

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40 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I suppose I'd need to ask what their political affiliation to get more of a sense on the bolded ;-). I don't think you need to be a sheep or a conspiracy theorist to want your political party to be in the right. Of course, if that doesn't match here, I withdraw my objection. I just know this to be a confirmation bias I occasionally have. 

As for studying the literature, I'm going to default to my original opinion, which is that doctors are in my experience don't have to use complicated math day to day and don't tend to be people who are very numerically proficient in the first place. (Pre-med student have a certain reputation with people teaching calculus, lol.) So I would guess they aren't getting more out of the studies than I am. 

I am not assuming they aren't well-intentioned, by the way. I'm just don't know if they are more qualified than anyone else to judge. And if they are right, I'm going to be disappointed, because it's going to be either masks or social distancing, and I would personally prefer masks. 

I do not think that they would claim that they were more qualified than anyone else to judge. They know full well that others have differing opinions and they admit that there is a lot that no one knows at this point.  They are able to listen to the views of others and continue to learn.  

As far as political parties, they aren't Americans and do not live in the US.

Edited by Bootsie
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17 minutes ago, Frances said:

While I agree with county and state level guidelines, I don’t think strong, consistent federal messages on how to wear masks properly and why they are important for successful re-opening and leading by example would hurt at all.

Well without getting much political, I will say if politicians wear a mask you know, like show and tell instead of blowing hot air at press conferences, it might make a difference than any campaign. But don't even get me started on politics, I like this board and would not like to be banned. 

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20 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I think the parade and fireworks show is a bad idea from the start. Philadelphia demonstrated that 100+ years ago. If they insist on going forward with a parade, then they are going to need to either limit viewing or extend the route, so everyone can spread out.  They don't want to do either of those things, so the only other option would be to have everyone wear a mask.  They don't want to do that either. Basically, everyone wants life to be like it was before and they don't want to have to think about covid at all.  When presented with any option to adjust to the situation, people have complained "But that's not how we've traditionally done it!" or "You can't force us to do that!" 

We have a chicken processing plant here that, so far, has not been impacted by covid. I am very worried for the people that work there.  Our local hospital has *NINE* ICU beds and will not be able to handle it if an outbreak occurs at the chicken plant. It's probably social distancing, the weather, and a bit of luck that has kept an outbreak from popping up there.  If we go forward with large public gatherings and take zero precautions, then we may not be so lucky any longer. 

 

The meat processing plants near Amarillo (I am not familiar with the area, just repeating information) contributed to the single biggest spike per day recently as they tested more apparently. I have no idea how bad these cases were, I suppose I could look up the county data, but do not know the names of them unless I look at a map. I just stick with my county data for mental health and having information to prepare on most days, state level once a week, I very rarely look beyond that. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/20/859261887/covid-19-cases-surge-in-amarillo-even-as-texas-continues-reopening

 

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17 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I do not think that they would claim that they were more qualified than anyone else to judge. They know full well that others have differing opinions and they admit that there is a lot that no one knows at this point.  They are able to listen to the views of others and continue to learn.  

As far as political parties, they aren't Americans and do not live in the US.

 

Cool, thank you :-). Do you know what facts they took into account in particular? I am not sure there's all that much out there. 

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26 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I think the parade and fireworks show is a bad idea from the start. Philadelphia demonstrated that 100+ years ago. If they insist on going forward with a parade, then they are going to need to either limit viewing or extend the route, so everyone can spread out.  They don't want to do either of those things, so the only other option would be to have everyone wear a mask.  They don't want to do that either. Basically, everyone wants life to be like it was before and they don't want to have to think about covid at all.  When presented with any option to adjust to the situation, people have complained "But that's not how we've traditionally done it!" or "You can't force us to do that!" 

We have a chicken processing plant here that, so far, has not been impacted by covid. I am very worried for the people that work there.  Our local hospital has *NINE* ICU beds and will not be able to handle it if an outbreak occurs at the chicken plant. It's probably social distancing, the weather, and a bit of luck that has kept an outbreak from popping up there.  If we go forward with large public gatherings and take zero precautions, then we may not be so lucky any longer. 

 

Ooooooh this is sounding worse and worse :-(. The meat processing plants are a real problem, as we've seen, because of the cold air and the packed spaces. Nine ICU beds will not do if everyone gets sick :-/. 

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@mathnerd@sassenach when I started work in the 90s, outsourcing to cheaper nations were already common. Work from home is just going to make it easier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/05/22/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-power-move-may-be-the-biggest-game-changer-for-the-job-market/

“It’s becoming clear that the “gift” of remote work may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Let’s face facts, Zuckerburg and Dorsey didn’t become multimillionaires because they’re nice. They are sharp, aggressive, genius wolves dressed in T-shirts, jeans and hoodies. They know that a person can work from home in San Francisco, North Dakota, Iowa, Utah, England or India. It’s been proven that the available technology, such as Zoom videos, Slack and other products, make it easy to work from anywhere in the world and seamlessly connect with co-workers and managers. 

Zuckerberg can now scout for talent all over the country and world. This could be the worst trend for workers, as CEOs arbitrage the best, cheapest job seekers globally. Facebook will source job applicants who possess all of the right skills and experience and live in lower-cost places and pay them less money then they’d receive working in San Francisco. Dorsey was upfront about this stating, “We can get talent anywhere. There’s a lot of folks out there that do not want to move to San Francisco. They feel comfortable working in a much smaller office or just home.”

This will cause a ripple of serious repercussions. Salaries for workers in San Francisco and other large cities may fall due to the introduction of job seekers that weren’t previously considered. Compensation may also be suppressed due to the overhang of over 39 million Americans who are out of work. 

It’s also telling that Facebook just launched a new group video chat product, Messenger Rooms.This looks like it’s specifically designed to compete against Zoom, Skype, Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. Conveniently, Facebook’s own employees can create a video chat room and invite up to 50 people to join a video call. It will make it easier for their remote workers and also steal market share from Zoom, which has become the Covid-19 breakout success story.

A large number of companies, including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan, Capital One, Amazon, Microsoft, Zillow and others have all announced that they’ll extend their work-from-home programs. They most likely will follow Zuckerberg and Dorsey’s lead by seeking out talent that live in lower-cost places, so they can bring down their costs. In light of the economic hit companies have taken due to the effects of Covid-19, saving money has become a top priority.

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

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25 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd@sassenach when I started work in the 90s, outsourcing to cheaper nations were already common. Work from home is just going to make it easier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/05/22/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-power-move-may-be-the-biggest-game-changer-for-the-job-market/

“It’s becoming clear that the “gift” of remote work may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Let’s face facts, Zuckerburg and Dorsey didn’t become multimillionaires because they’re nice. They are sharp, aggressive, genius wolves dressed in T-shirts, jeans and hoodies. They know that a person can work from home in San Francisco, North Dakota, Iowa, Utah, England or India. It’s been proven that the available technology, such as Zoom videos, Slack and other products, make it easy to work from anywhere in the world and seamlessly connect with co-workers and managers. 

Zuckerberg can now scout for talent all over the country and world. This could be the worst trend for workers, as CEOs arbitrage the best, cheapest job seekers globally. Facebook will source job applicants who possess all of the right skills and experience and live in lower-cost places and pay them less money then they’d receive working in San Francisco. Dorsey was upfront about this stating, “We can get talent anywhere. There’s a lot of folks out there that do not want to move to San Francisco. They feel comfortable working in a much smaller office or just home.”

This will cause a ripple of serious repercussions. Salaries for workers in San Francisco and other large cities may fall due to the introduction of job seekers that weren’t previously considered. Compensation may also be suppressed due to the overhang of over 39 million Americans who are out of work. 

It’s also telling that Facebook just launched a new group video chat product, Messenger Rooms.This looks like it’s specifically designed to compete against Zoom, Skype, Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. Conveniently, Facebook’s own employees can create a video chat room and invite up to 50 people to join a video call. It will make it easier for their remote workers and also steal market share from Zoom, which has become the Covid-19 breakout success story.

A large number of companies, including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan, Capital One, Amazon, Microsoft, Zillow and others have all announced that they’ll extend their work-from-home programs. They most likely will follow Zuckerberg and Dorsey’s lead by seeking out talent that live in lower-cost places, so they can bring down their costs. In light of the economic hit companies have taken due to the effects of Covid-19, saving money has become a top priority.

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

 

I'd be curious how well this works long-term. Next year, maybe. But once people are congregating again... the Internet is no replacement for that. 

 

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd@sassenach when I started work in the 90s, outsourcing to cheaper nations were already common. Work from home is just going to make it easier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/05/22/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-power-move-may-be-the-biggest-game-changer-for-the-job-market/

“It’s becoming clear that the “gift” of remote work may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Let’s face facts, Zuckerburg and Dorsey didn’t become multimillionaires because they’re nice. They are sharp, aggressive, genius wolves dressed in T-shirts, jeans and hoodies. They know that a person can work from home in San Francisco, North Dakota, Iowa, Utah, England or India. It’s been proven that the available technology, such as Zoom videos, Slack and other products, make it easy to work from anywhere in the world and seamlessly connect with co-workers and managers. 

Zuckerberg can now scout for talent all over the country and world. This could be the worst trend for workers, as CEOs arbitrage the best, cheapest job seekers globally. Facebook will source job applicants who possess all of the right skills and experience and live in lower-cost places and pay them less money then they’d receive working in San Francisco. Dorsey was upfront about this stating, “We can get talent anywhere. There’s a lot of folks out there that do not want to move to San Francisco. They feel comfortable working in a much smaller office or just home.”

This will cause a ripple of serious repercussions. Salaries for workers in San Francisco and other large cities may fall due to the introduction of job seekers that weren’t previously considered. Compensation may also be suppressed due to the overhang of over 39 million Americans who are out of work. 

It’s also telling that Facebook just launched a new group video chat product, Messenger Rooms.This looks like it’s specifically designed to compete against Zoom, Skype, Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. Conveniently, Facebook’s own employees can create a video chat room and invite up to 50 people to join a video call. It will make it easier for their remote workers and also steal market share from Zoom, which has become the Covid-19 breakout success story.

A large number of companies, including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan, Capital One, Amazon, Microsoft, Zillow and others have all announced that they’ll extend their work-from-home programs. They most likely will follow Zuckerberg and Dorsey’s lead by seeking out talent that live in lower-cost places, so they can bring down their costs. In light of the economic hit companies have taken due to the effects of Covid-19, saving money has become a top priority.

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

I guess I though most of this was already happening. The largest growing city in my state is full of people who work for tech companies based in CA. I follow the blog of someone who works for a US based tech company purposefully employees people all over the world. They have yearly staff meetings in a different country every year. According to my friends who work for a big user of H1B visas, the company has long been hiring whoever they want from anywhere in the world by gaming the system. There have also been news stories about companies replacing US programmers with H1B holders from Indian outsourcing companies. I guess maybe they can just be more open about all of it now.

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37 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

Some people who live and work in super high COL areas may also be quite happy to take a pay cut in order to move to a much lower COL area, since they may still come out ahead financially, with extra bonuses like less traffic, less stress, more land, cheaper colleges for their kids, etc. And if it becomes a serious trend, it may also relieve some of the pressure on housing in these super HCOL areas, making housing more affordable for those who do stay.

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7 minutes ago, Frances said:

. According to my friends who work for a big user of H1B visas, the company has long been hiring whoever they want from anywhere in the world by gaming the system. There have also been news stories about companies replacing US programmers with H1B holders from Indian outsourcing companies. I guess maybe they can just be more open about all of it now.

I am very familiar with two of those India outsourcing companies as my former employer works with them. These companies are heavy lobbyists in India, US and other countries.  Now they don’t need to bring them into US so people who want to migrate through the H1 route would have less chances. 

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

I guess I though most of this was already happening. The largest growing city in my state is full of people who work for tech companies based in CA. I follow the blog of someone who works for a US based tech company and purposefully employees people all over the world. They have yearly staff meetings in a different country every year. According to my friends who work for a big user of H1B visas, the company has long been hiring whoever they want from anywhere in the world by gaming the system. There have also been news stories about companies replacing US programmers with H1B holders from Indian outsourcing companies. I guess maybe they can just be more open about all of it now.

H1B visas are attached to a particular company and not a person. So if you want to change companies you wait unto 60 days after getting an offer letter to get the visa and then you give notice to the old employer. It is initially for a period of I think 2.5 years and you can renew it each time. Now that USCIS is closed there is a very good chance a lot of people will lose their status. Many people have bought houses here because a H1B visa holder can get a green card through applying through an employer.  Previously they used to pay for it, now the employee pays. Last I heard the who H1B visa was put on pause, was asked to be put on pause, cancelled. But it is fair to say people are not coming in large numbers any time soon or even going back because they have lives here even if they are on a limbo status wise and a cross continent move will be difficult even in the best of times. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

I am very familiar with two of those India outsourcing companies as my former employer works with them. These companies are heavy lobbyists in India, US and other countries.  Now they don’t need to bring them into US so people who want to migrate through the H1 route would have less chances. 

Most tech companies have a heavy presence in India. They don't need visas for people to come here for work like before. They can just recruit there and transfer work.

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24 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Most tech companies have a heavy presence in India. They don't need visas for people to come here for work like before. They can just recruit there and transfer work.

A friend came here on H1 through an outsourcing company as their client needed a system admin onsite.  The outsourcing company is one of those listed in this article https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-immigration/h-1b-extension-rejections-rob-indian-it-firms-of-visa-power/articleshow/68312136.cms

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5 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

gently, the opposite is also true.  When someone insists they’re doing great and their area isn’t struggling with the reopening and hasn’t seen a spike, that’s legit too.  And I’ve worn my mask out to the hospital, store, gas station, and restaurants, no prob and zero weird looks or abuse.

This is very very regional, and making generalizations about people’s experiences doesn’t work well.

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Some people who live and work in super high COL areas may also be quite happy to take a pay cut in order to move to a much lower COL area, since they may still come out ahead financially, with extra bonuses like less traffic, less stress, more land, cheaper colleges for their kids, etc. And if it becomes a serious trend, it may also relieve some of the pressure on housing in these super HCOL areas, making housing more affordable for those who do stay.

That’s our guess at one of the long term changes with this that could be for the better.  That and with a push to bring some manufacturing back, rust belt towns like the one I’m in, with rail lines and good population size and empty factories stand primed and ready to be sold on the cheap for adjusted manufacturing businesses of the newer and more robotic type, complete with the tech influx of the last twenty years in to support that change in workforce composition.

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55 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

gently, the opposite is also true.  When someone insists they’re doing great and their area isn’t struggling with the reopening and hasn’t seen a spike, that’s legit too.  And I’ve worn my mask out to the hospital, store, gas station, and restaurants, no prob and zero weird looks or abuse.

This is very very regional, and making generalizations about people’s experiences doesn’t work well.

 

I am not making a generalization about other areas, nor do I doubt that other locations aren't struggling. It was asked by another poster exactly where people were experiencing trouble over masks, because they only saw people happily complying with the recommendations. Well, I live in a place where people aren't happily complying. 

As for re-opening, Texas has been stable, despite the constant Impending Doom Reports from the media predicting a NYC style meltdown any day now.  I feel like many media outlets would be really excited to see a big state like Texas fail spectacularly. 

I'm actually way more concerned about what's going on in Illinois than I am about Texas right now. 

 

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5 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I have heard this reasoning often.  That if I express concern about something, it means I want the bad outcome to happen.  Why would people feel that way?  

 

Because some people are mean? Schadenfreude is a real thing. 

My point above is that I've seen a lot of media reports reporting "surges" and "spikes" in Texas, while not reporting much of anything about a place with twice as many new daily cases.  I think that's kind of weird. 

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9 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Some people who live and work in super high COL areas may also be quite happy to take a pay cut in order to move to a much lower COL area, since they may still come out ahead financially, with extra bonuses like less traffic, less stress, more land, cheaper colleges for their kids, etc. And if it becomes a serious trend, it may also relieve some of the pressure on housing in these super HCOL areas, making housing more affordable for those who do stay.

Yeah, my DS is taking this into consideration as he plans ahead for a computer engineering degree. Opportunities for remote working appeal to him. Life balance is something we stress, especially because he is motivated and looking toward a competitive field.
 

Also, pettily and selfishly, I hate what the tech boom has done to SF; I don’t even recognize it any more when I go home. I’d love to see some of the city’s soul return, although I realize it’s probably gone for good. 😞 Of course I don’t want to see a crash there either, but I’m not sure that’s where we are headed as a result of opening up remote opportunities even more. 

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17 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Some people who live and work in super high COL areas may also be quite happy to take a pay cut in order to move to a much lower COL area, since they may still come out ahead financially, with extra bonuses like less traffic, less stress, more land, cheaper colleges for their kids, etc. And if it becomes a serious trend, it may also relieve some of the pressure on housing in these super HCOL areas, making housing more affordable for those who do stay.

I am worried about my friends back in my country of origin. Some have lost their jobs to cheaper labor in neighboring countries. Computer engineers from Bangkok, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Penang, Cyberjaya are all much cheaper.  

What I have seen happened while working for blue chips companies is that they hire the cheaper labor and then retrench in the name of restructuring a few months later. So they maintain or reduce headcount but eliminate the more expensive workers. A friend in UK has a staff that are all based in India because of cost cutting way before COVID19. She is working from home so they are paying her a work from home rate that is adjusted for UK taxes. 

I would love to move to a cheaper location as long as there is good medical care being the “sickly person” that I am since birth. I won’t mind if real estate where I am gets cheaper. However, I have seen in my country of origin that it lead to job losses among those who are higher pay due to seniority. 

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8 hours ago, MEmama said:


Also, pettily and selfishly, I hate what the tech boom has done to SF; I don’t even recognize it any more when I go home. I’d love to see some of the city’s soul return, although I realize it’s probably gone for good. 😞 Of course I don’t want to see a crash there either, but I’m not sure that’s where we are headed as a result of opening up remote opportunities even more. 

I live near Sunnyvale and Mountain View, and farmland has mostly become residential apartments or homes. The Cisco buildings that were sold became apartment buildings. SF Chinatown might be able to preserve its culture. I actually like Sausalito, it still has an old world charm. 

SF has a homeless issue and they would need the tax from SF residents and businesses to fund all the services. People are wondering what happens to Salesforce tower if companies don’t need it anymore (ETA: as in the rental/property tax revenue).  

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My heart falls and my stomach churns when I read about the push to "work from home" in the tech sector.  We've seen a shift in the last decade.  In house jobs moved to contract work.  The contractor firms offer many fewer benefits---insurance is more expensive and pays out less, contract workers are easily furloughed without pay & on little notice, no profit sharing accrues. Now that work is going to be easier to shift overseas.  Let's be honest, this is a driving down of salaries in the tech field.  They will hire foreign workers that they pay $15-30k a year instead of US workers.  This process has already started to happen.

This same process happened in the legal field twenty years ago.  Tens of thousands of lawyers lost their jobs as the market contracted post 9/11. The major law firms all consolidated, the research and writing jobs went overseas, and only the partners benefited.  The remaining associates go through the churn and burn. A handful will be able to buy in and make partner and the rest are thrown out after working 60-100 hour workweeks.  Some lawyers have been able to specialize and do boutique work, but the market is not the same that it was.

The tech market is doing the same.  Either you specialize and have some awesome skills that are worth keeping you on, or the work is starting to be sent overseas. The problem is that it takes experience over time to develop those awesome skills and specializations and if you don't ever have that door opened for you for entry level work, it's hard to make that leap. 

I really hate that the PR firms are framing this as an argument against expensive housing or as allowing the non-coastal areas to thrive. It's not really that at all.

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19 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Some people who live and work in super high COL areas may also be quite happy to take a pay cut in order to move to a much lower COL area, since they may still come out ahead financially, with extra bonuses like less traffic, less stress, more land, cheaper colleges for their kids, etc. And if it becomes a serious trend, it may also relieve some of the pressure on housing in these super HCOL areas, making housing more affordable for those who do stay.

As someone who has looked at these salary gaps pretty extensively over the last five years in one niche of the tech sector (and have had to make two cross-country moves as a result of these gaps) I don't think this is as rosy of a picture as the reality.

And, on the flip side, look at what has happened to Austin, TX.  Austin's housing prices in 2005 were very appealing.  By 2010, they had shot up pretty astronomically.  In 2015, housing prices were approaching west coast ones in Austin itself, less so in the suburbs.  Now.....some of those prices are just as high as coast prices. Lots of the tech firms have moved jobs there where they are paying Texas salaries.  People cashed out of their west coast houses and drove up the market because they had cash on hand to outbid each other. Some tech firms have started to run shuttle buses from San Antonio to Austin because housing is so much cheaper in San Antonio, San Marcos, etc.

 

 

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1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As someone who has looked at these salary gaps pretty extensively over the last five years in one niche of the tech sector (and have had to make two cross-country moves as a result of these gaps) I don't think this is as rosy of a picture as the reality.

And, on the flip side, look at what has happened to Austin, TX.  Austin's housing prices in 2005 were very appealing.  By 2010, they had shot up pretty astronomically.  In 2015, housing prices were approaching west coast ones in Austin itself, less so in the suburbs.  Now.....some of those prices are just as high as coast prices. Lots of the tech firms have moved jobs there where they are paying Texas salaries.  People cashed out of their west coast houses and drove up the market because they had cash on hand to outbid each other. Some tech firms have started to run shuttle buses from San Antonio to Austin because housing is so much cheaper in San Antonio, San Marcos, etc.

But those employees, who moved to Austin to work at tech firms that also moved to Austin, are working in the office, right? If people can work from home, they don't need to live in the same city as the company. They can live in cheaper parts of Texas — or anywhere else — without the need for shuttle busses or long commutes.

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@mathnerd K Market Sunnyvale. Easy to social distance in store. Prices comparable to other Korean supermarkets 

Look at what the packaging on the blue earloop mask says 😂

CD6D4E33-36D1-472F-80EC-39BC069B41D3.jpeg

E6345950-C30B-4E08-95E3-8F375F3FFD94.jpeg

E647779A-8AD0-4876-BBEF-30D312BE7AB9.jpeg

BB6EF203-E418-4E44-8BE5-FD30864E1692.jpeg

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41 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As someone who has looked at these salary gaps pretty extensively over the last five years in one niche of the tech sector (and have had to make two cross-country moves as a result of these gaps) I don't think this is as rosy of a picture as the reality.

And, on the flip side, look at what has happened to Austin, TX.  Austin's housing prices in 2005 were very appealing.  By 2010, they had shot up pretty astronomically.  In 2015, housing prices were approaching west coast ones in Austin itself, less so in the suburbs.  Now.....some of those prices are just as high as coast prices. Lots of the tech firms have moved jobs there where they are paying Texas salaries.  People cashed out of their west coast houses and drove up the market because they had cash on hand to outbid each other. Some tech firms have started to run shuttle buses from San Antonio to Austin because housing is so much cheaper in San Antonio, San Marcos, etc.

I can vouch for that. Real estate prices in downtown Austin and the nearby neighborhoods are currently ridiculous. 

We really regretted not buying a place in Austin 10 years ago, lol. It would have been a good investment. 

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On 5/24/2020 at 6:22 PM, wathe said:

Extrapolating:  Bystander CPR may become no longer a thing.  First aid courses are going to have to change their content - full PPE in the AED cabinet? And training time on how to use it.

Given the low success rate to hospital discharge of bystander cpr, we in-company first aiders have been advised by our occupational health department not to attempt it.

https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-020-2773-2

 

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The presumption you are making is that those jobs are staying stateside: many won’t. 


Beyond that, IME, since tech firms are already prone to reorganizations and the average tech worker stays in their current <5 years (whether they are climbing the ladder or their company is reorganizing laterally or the employee is jumping in and out of working for a larger company), most of those employees will want to stay tied to a city that has other tech jobs available. They may choose to buy a house out in the ‘burbs of a metro area, but they aren’t going rural. 
 


 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Given the low success rate to hospital discharge of bystander cpr, we in-company first aiders have been advised by our occupational health department not to attempt it.

https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-020-2773-2

 

Laura, is this COVID crisis advice?  Or advice pre-COVID?  Because survival to hospital discharge with bystander CPR rate of 11% (as per quoted article) is, well, I agree it's low, but it's definitely not futile, and in a pre-pandemic environment, these odds are worth the effort, I should think.

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46 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd K Market Sunnyvale. Easy to social distance in store. Prices comparable to other Korean supermarkets 

Look at what the packaging on the blue earloop mask says 😂

CD6D4E33-36D1-472F-80EC-39BC069B41D3.jpeg

 

 

Thanks for the tip. I will check it out next time I go to El Camino area. Maybe the blue ear loop surgical mask is a realistic pastry made by a talented baker from K-Bakery to signify COVID times 😉

 

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