Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

sassenach

Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

As a side question.  I feel like I hear so often about the risks that doctors and nurses are taking, but I never hear about the respiratory therapists.  For my kid, the RT's are the ones who appear to be taking the biggest risks.  They're the ones setting up running the aerosolizing procedures. Why aren't they, and EMT's being sung as heroes in the same way?

Our RTs were asking the same thing during nurses week lol! But really the RTs are fantastic and deserve great praise!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I had dinner last night with two physicians--both who have treated COVID-19 patients.  Both have had colleagues who have been infected.  One is affiliated with a major university teaching hospital.  Neither thought masks for the general public and outside of medical settings was helpful.  In fact, they had concerns about it.  They felt that people were touching their noses and eyes more; they were concerned of mold and other build-up on the masks, and they were concerned about contamination as people took off the masks and laid them down and then put them on again.  They felt that being as healthy as possible was important in case you should become infected because your outcome was likely to be better; one way to promote good health was a lot of fresh, outdoor air, in their opinion.  Their attitude was that, if it makes people feel better, masking indoors in public places is OK, but they thought masking outdoors was actually counterproductive.   When there are some in the medical field who have studied the matter and they are of the opinion that it isn't really helpful, it is easy to see why some in the general public are not pushing masks. 

 

Have they actually studied this or are they just random doctors? Because I don't expect doctors to be all that up on epidemiology. In my experience, doctors aren't that good with numbers. 

If masks aren't helpful, then we will have more trouble going back to normal than we would otherwise. I see no reason why anyone would hope for this to be true.  

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Heartwood said:

People can try to use collected data to project what can happen, but history has shown that those projections don't always pan out. Also, the media does an especially good job highlighting the bad and dare I saw these boards lately have followed their lead pretty well concerning covid19.

Yeah, projections are extremely flawed. That doesn't mean we aren't supposed to use our brains to figure out what's happening.

Actually, the media did an awful job of highlighting the bad. In February, the media was in deep denial, along with the rest of the US. DH says that some epidemiologists he was reading on Twitter were sounding the alarm, but as someone who consumes the news, I had NO IDEA that there was a decent chance coronavirus was already in NYC. I really didn't. And if that had been clearly spelled out by "the media", I would have known. 

Yes, right now, the media is worried. They could be wrong again. But they weren't always on the pessimistic side of things. I wouldn't assume they are this time, either. 

Edited by square_25
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Frances said:

But isn’t opening up primarily about indoor things like businesses? My liberal state is only requiring masks on public transportation and for store employees in customer facing businesses, since they are being exposed to so many people during their shifts. Stores can require masks for customers, in order to help protect their employees, but the government is not. And certainly they are not requiring masks at state parks, beaches, etc. They are asking people to maintain social distancing as much as possible, while gradually allowing larger groups, but asking, not requiring, people to wear masks when that is difficult. So primarily indoors.

While I understand the concerns you mention, I would not go so far as to say they have studied it. It sounds like they have thought about it and reached their conclusions, but not performed an actual study. It also seems like most of their concerns could be addressed with good public health campaigns. I think that’s why it likely works so well in some Asian countries. Everyone is getting the same consistent message, it’s not so location dependent as it is in the US.

Maybe they had a study like this in mind?  This study has two other studies linked, which refer to N95 and medical masks.  PubMed has a rabbit trail of similar studies. 
In the univariate analysis, all outcomes were significantly higher in the cloth mask group, compared with the medical masks group. After adjusting for other factors, ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) remained significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/#!po=50.0000

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

New CPR guidelines call for JUST chest compressions.  This was policy well before COVID as I was recertified last fall and it was no mouth to mouth.

I think lifeguarding standards might be different than standard first-aid standards though.  Lifeguards might be dealing with submerged non-breathing victims.  30:2 compressions to ventilations still seems to be current by Canadian Lifeguarding standards. (pulled from current Lifesaving Society website)

ETA - just chest compressions alone are considered to be an AGMP in the hospital.  We don full PPE/n95 before starting chest compressions.  So even if lifeguards aren't doing rescue breathing (whether by bag-valve-mask or mouth to mouth), they are still being asked to do a risky manouver that HCP would not do without PPE.

 

Edited by wathe
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Maybe they had a study like this in mind?  This study has two other studies linked, which refer to N95 and medical masks.  PubMed has a rabbit trail of similar studies. 
In the univariate analysis, all outcomes were significantly higher in the cloth mask group, compared with the medical masks group. After adjusting for other factors, ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) remained significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/#!po=50.0000

Hopefully we will get to a place where the best quality masks are available for all. Early on the South Korean government was able to work with manufacturers to ramp up n95 to levels that not only allowed for sufficient supplies at hospitals, but also every person was able to buy two per week at cost at their local pharmacy or post office. When family members who live in Japan wear them, they are not wearing homemade cloth masks, but regular surgical ones or n95s.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Maybe they had a study like this in mind?  This study has two other studies linked, which refer to N95 and medical masks.  PubMed has a rabbit trail of similar studies. 
In the univariate analysis, all outcomes were significantly higher in the cloth mask group, compared with the medical masks group. After adjusting for other factors, ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) remained significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/#!po=50.0000

 

But that's cloth masks compared to medical masks, not cloth masks compared to no masks. And it's in a medical setting, not at home. 

I think if we look at the results from the Asian countries and even at the results in Asian populations in hard-hit cities, it is obvious that there are personal responsibility measures that make a difference. What are they exactly? We don't know for sure. But masks are an obvious one to try. 

Here's a write up of this using two local neighborhoods; 

https://thecity.nyc/2020/05/the-life-and-death-divide-between-flushing-and-corona.html

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Maybe they had a study like this in mind?  This study has two other studies linked, which refer to N95 and medical masks.  PubMed has a rabbit trail of similar studies. 
In the univariate analysis, all outcomes were significantly higher in the cloth mask group, compared with the medical masks group. After adjusting for other factors, ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) remained significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/#!po=50.0000

I think that was the study done in Vietnam. That seemed pretty conclusive that cloth masks do not protect HCWs as well as surgical masks from getting viruses they are exposed to. That seems to make sense.

I think that the whole premise for the general public wearing masks in enclosed areas is to primarily stop them spreading the virus and not really protecting them much from getting it. So of course it seems like it will only really help if sick people are wearing them.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TCB said:

I think that was the study done in Vietnam. That seemed pretty conclusive that cloth masks do not protect HCWs as well as surgical masks from getting viruses they are exposed to. That seems to make sense.

I think that the whole premise for the general public wearing masks in enclosed areas is to primarily stop them spreading the virus and not really protecting them much from getting it. So of course it seems like it will only really help if sick people are wearing them.

Even before this my dental hygienist wore a surgical mask and a face shield. So it certainly doesn’t seem surprising that in a healthcare setting, a mask specifically designed for that setting would work better than a homemade cloth mask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:


As a side question.  I feel like I hear so often about the risks that doctors and nurses are taking, but I never hear about the respiratory therapists.  For my kid, the RT's are the ones who appear to be taking the biggest risks.  They're the ones setting up running the aerosolizing procedures. Why aren't they, and EMT's being sung as heroes in the same way?

Absolutely. All people working with Covid patients in any way are putting themselves at risk and should be recognized for that. Being an RT is especially dangerous right now. There have also been a lot of non-medical hospital workers who have lost their lives—patient transporters, patient desk staff, etc. Frequently, they weren’t being given PPE since it has been in such short supply and PPE was being conserved for direct patient care. 

9 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

Maybe they had a study like this in mind?  This study has two other studies linked, which refer to N95 and medical masks.  PubMed has a rabbit trail of similar studies. 
In the univariate analysis, all outcomes were significantly higher in the cloth mask group, compared with the medical masks group. After adjusting for other factors, ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) remained significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group.”


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/#!po=50.0000

Well, if they were referencing that, they either didn’t read and/or should know better. That is the one that always comes up when people want to give a study to back up not mask wearing, but it only compares medical masks to cloth masks. Even the control group was wearing medical masks most of the time. 
 

How about the recent hamster mask study? 😊 that provided very encouraging data to suggest that everyone wearing masks could dramatically reduce spread. It would be wonderful if that turns out to be the case, wouldn’t it? Then we could open everything back up. Until we have vaccine and/or effective treatment, masks are really the best we have to allow us to open more things. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, projections are extremely flawed. That doesn't mean we aren't supposed to use our brains to figure out what's happening.

Actually, the media did an awful job of highlighting the bad. In February, the media was in deep denial, along with the rest of the US. DH says that some epidemiologists he was reading on Twitter were sounding the alarm, but as someone who consumes the news, I had NO IDEA that there was a decent chance coronavirus was already in NYC. I really didn't. And if that had been clearly spelled out by "the media", I would have known. 

Yes, right now, the media is worried. They could be wrong again. But they weren't always on the pessimistic side of things. I wouldn't assume they are this time, either. 

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but I honestly don't know how people didn't know it was here. Flights come in from China daily to multiple airports in the US. As soon as the first ban was announced here my thought was, well, it already has to be here and probably a lot of it and it presents like an illness alot of people are likely to ignore at first... it's got to be all over the place. It baffled me that everyone didn't realize that. Not to toot my own horn because I guess I also in my own mind did not think of it as being quite as severe as it was. 

My DH is a math guy and as he was watching the numbers reported in China he was giving everyone saying that it wasn't that bad a side eye. I know you're a math person too, but honestly the only people I knew who were nervous about downplaying this in Jan/Feb were people with a background in numbers.

Edited by EmseB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

New CPR guidelines call for JUST chest compressions.  This was policy well before COVID as I was recertified last fall and it was no mouth to mouth.

Thinking about this further:  CPR guidelines for lay-rescuers may be chest compressions only.  But professional CPR (by paramedic in the field, or HCP in hospital) absolutely still includes ventilation as well as chest compressions.   One could argue that lifeguards are rescuing professionally - it is an essential part of their paid job.   I wonder if that's why standards might be different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

But that's cloth masks compared to medical masks, not cloth masks compared to no masks. And it's in a medical setting, not at home. 

I think if we look at the results from the Asian countries and even at the results in Asian populations in hard-hit cities, it is obvious that there are personal responsibility measures that make a difference. What are they exactly? We don't know for sure. But masks are an obvious one to try. 

Here's a write up of this using two local neighborhoods; 

https://thecity.nyc/2020/05/the-life-and-death-divide-between-flushing-and-corona.html

That is why I linked this study and referred to the masks that I did. The doctors may be more aware of what different masking outcomes are in their setting (HCW) and extrapolating to the general population, not having any concrete data on cloth masking indoors v. no mask for the ordinary Joe.

 

As far as the article you shared, there looks like there could very well be confounding factors at play, such as skin color (Asian v. Latino...if vitamin D has a role) and overall hygiene (masking v. working while sick).  So you are right, we don’t know for sure.  

Also, and this is off-topic but calls attention to the reporting, it starts out about the similarities between the groups: “Both are high-density areas with similar socioeconomic profiles. They’re linked by the usually crowded No. 7 train.

Nearly half of workers in both neighborhoods are employed in food service, construction, cleaning and transportation — jobs that New York State has deemed essential through the pandemic.

Residents of both places typically have household income below the Queens median and a similar share of people who lack health insurance, as measured by the U.S. Census Bureau. And almost half of apartments and houses in both areas have more than one occupant per room, the Census definition of crowded.” 

But then says near the end, “What’s happening right now with both Latino and African Americans is a good illustration of the power of the social determinants, economic, environmental and structural determinants of health. Things like poverty levels, access to food — especially healthy food. And right now, for many, many families it’s just food, any kind of food,” said Dr. Sergio Aguilar-Gaxiola, director of the UC Davis Center for Reducing Health Disparities.”


So those things don’t matter if you’re Asian now? Only if you’re Latino or African American? I’m not asking you, specifically; just thinking out loud.  I have enjoyed the discussions on this board 😉!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

That is why I linked this study and referred to the masks that I did. The doctors may be more aware of what different masking outcomes are in their setting (HCW) and extrapolating to the general population, not having any concrete data on cloth masking indoors v. no mask for the ordinary Joe.

 

As far as the article you shared, there looks like there could very well be confounding factors at play, such as skin color (Asian v. Latino...if vitamin D has a role) and overall hygiene (masking v. working while sick).  So you are right, we don’t know for sure.  

Also, and this is off-topic but calls attention to the reporting, it starts out about the similarities between the groups: “Both are high-density areas with similar socioeconomic profiles. They’re linked by the usually crowded No. 7 train.

Nearly half of workers in both neighborhoods are employed in food service, construction, cleaning and transportation — jobs that New York State has deemed essential through the pandemic.

Residents of both places typically have household income below the Queens median and a similar share of people who lack health insurance, as measured by the U.S. Census Bureau. And almost half of apartments and houses in both areas have more than one occupant per room, the Census definition of crowded.” 

But then says near the end, “What’s happening right now with both Latino and African Americans is a good illustration of the power of the social determinants, economic, environmental and structural determinants of health. Things like poverty levels, access to food — especially healthy food. And right now, for many, many families it’s just food, any kind of food,” said Dr. Sergio Aguilar-Gaxiola, director of the UC Davis Center for Reducing Health Disparities.”


So those things don’t matter if you’re Asian now? Only if you’re Latino or African American? I’m not asking you, specifically; just thinking out loud.  I have enjoyed the discussions on this board 😉!

 

Culturally, I'd say those communities are more vulnerable for a good number of reasons. So you're right, it's not just economics. Although of course, it's economics, too. Rich white people are still the ones who are best off in NYC, because they could shelter in place or simply leave. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EmseB said:

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but I honestly don't know how people didn't know it was here. Flights come in from China daily to multiple airports in the US. As soon as the first ban was announced here my thought was, well, it already has to be here and probably a lot of it and it presents like an illness alot of people are likely to ignore at first... it's got to be all over the place. It baffled me that everyone didn't realize that. Not to toot my own horn because I guess I also in my own mind did not think of it as being quite as severe as it was. 

My DH is a math guy and as he was watching the numbers reported in China he was giving everyone saying that it wasn't that bad a side eye. I know you're a math person too, but honestly the only people I knew who were nervous about downplaying this in Jan/Feb were people with a background in numbers.

 

Oh, I thought it'd spread all over back in January. It seemed very contagious. But I didn't look at the numbers enough to realize how severe it was. So I guess you and I were in the same boat. 

I don't really know how to put it... all I know is that people in NYC in February were absolutely not modifying their behaviors, even "numbers people" like me, who figured it would spread. It didn't seem real. And I'm sure part of the reason it didn't seem real is because no one in the media was panicking, and no one around me was panicking, and in general, given all the day to day things I normally do, I simply didn't have the impetus to figure out how dangerous it was. I was in a default mode of "this probably won't affect my life that much." 

The other interesting thing is that it doesn't actually look like it WAS all over the place in February. It's not quite as contagious as all that. It was just all over NYC ;-). 

Edited by square_25
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I had dinner last night with two physicians--both who have treated COVID-19 patients.  Both have had colleagues who have been infected.  One is affiliated with a major university teaching hospital.  Neither thought masks for the general public and outside of medical settings was helpful.  In fact, they had concerns about it.  They felt that people were touching their noses and eyes more; they were concerned of mold and other build-up on the masks, and they were concerned about contamination as people took off the masks and laid them down and then put them on again.  They felt that being as healthy as possible was important in case you should become infected because your outcome was likely to be better; one way to promote good health was a lot of fresh, outdoor air, in their opinion.  Their attitude was that, if it makes people feel better, masking indoors in public places is OK, but they thought masking outdoors was actually counterproductive.   When there are some in the medical field who have studied the matter and they are of the opinion that it isn't really helpful, it is easy to see why some in the general public are not pushing masks. 

I have a friend in the medical profession who thinks almost identically.  Interesting!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I don't know about other states, but in NY you're only supposed to wear a mask when you're near people (whether inside or outside.) So you are certainly able to take walks outside and breathe fresh air, as long as you aren't near anyone else... 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DoraBora said:

People in your town are yelling at you about wearing a mask?  Where do you live?  I'm a native Texan, and though every person in our state is imperfect, it's been my experience that we're a pretty friendly bunch.  That is very sad and I'm sorry you're experiencing such hostility!

You probably know this, but masks and distancing cannot legally be enforced by any city or county in Texas, per Gov. Abbott's order.  I think that's a good thing, though you probably disagree.  I wouldn't yell at you about our differences of opinion, nor would I suggest you leave.  🙂

 

I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin. My husband is a native Texan from another small town in Victoria county, and his friends there are reporting the same thing; being challenged and insulted while wearing a mask at the store.  These are also native Texans.  

Up until covid, people in these towns were super nice and friendly.  It was one of the best parts of living here and made life very stress-free. Since covid, I've seen some of the most horrendous, rude behavior I've ever witnessed in my entire life.  Like, a woman screaming at the clerk at the post office because the 6 ft social distance markers on the floor made the line too long, and people yelling at each other in HEB over lord knows what.  It was loud enough that the entire front of the store stopped and stared. 

I've been called a socialist, a nazi, a "sheeple". I was also the topic of a lecture from a homeschool dad at the store to his son.  The kid recognized me but the dad did not.  I felt bad for the kid because he looked mortified as his dad banged on about how people like me don't have critical thinking skills and react only to fear, like an animal. 

I'm not sure why you brought up legal enforcement or why you assume what my stance would be on that matter.  It feels like you are trying to bait me into an argument about the constitutionality of this situation, and I'm not interested in that fight. 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin. My husband is a native Texan from another small town in Victoria county, and his friends there are reporting the same thing; being challenged and insulted while wearing a mask at the store.  These are also native Texans.  

Up until covid, people in these towns were super nice and friendly.  It was one of the best parts of living here and made life very stress-free. Since covid, I've seen some of the most horrendous, rude behavior I've ever witnessed in my entire life.  Like, a woman screaming at the clerk at the post office because the 6 ft social distance markers on the floor made the line too long, and people yelling at each other in HEB over lord knows what.  It was loud enough that the entire front of the store stopped and stared. 

I've been called a socialist, a nazi, a "sheeple". I was also the topic of a lecture from a homeschool dad at the store to his son.  The kid recognized me but the dad did not.  I felt bad for the kid because he looked mortified as his dad banged on about how people like me don't have critical thinking skills and react only to fear, like an animal. 

I'm not sure why you brought up legal enforcement or why you assume what my stance would be on that matter.  It feels like you are trying to bait me into an argument about the constitutionality of this situation, and I'm not interested in that fight. 

 

Oh, I am sorry :-(. That sounds very fraught and stressful. I can't tell you how much I wish that this hadn't become a political issue. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Frances said:

But isn’t opening up primarily about indoor things like businesses? My liberal state is only requiring masks on public transportation and for store employees in customer facing businesses, since they are being exposed to so many people during their shifts. Stores can require masks for customers, in order to help protect their employees, but the government is not. And certainly they are not requiring masks at state parks, beaches, etc. They are asking people to maintain social distancing as much as possible, while gradually allowing larger groups, but asking, not requiring, people to wear masks when that is difficult. So primarily indoors.

While I understand the concerns you mention, I would not go so far as to say they have studied it. It sounds like they have thought about it and reached their conclusions, but not performed an actual study. It also seems like most of their concerns could be addressed with good public health campaigns. I think that’s why it likely works so well in some Asian countries. Everyone is getting the same consistent message, it’s not so location dependent as it is in the US.

When I said that they had studied the issue I did not mean that they had personally conducted a study on the use of masks by the general public.  What I meant was that they have studied existing literature and knowledge base regarding masks, lung health, epidemiology, etc. and do not believe that mask wearing by the general population is helpful and may create additional problems, especially when it is done while people are spending time outdoors.  They are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated people who are sincerely wanting what is best for their patients, their colleagues, and themselves.  I do not know if their analysis is correct or not.  But, I do not think it is correct to conclude that people who are not pushing for mask wearing are into conspiracy theories, don't believe COVID-19 exists, are uncaring, have political motivations, or some of the other statements I have been seeing being made.   

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bootsie said:

When I said that they had studied the issue I did not mean that they had personally conducted a study on the use of masks by the general public.  What I meant was that they have studied existing literature and knowledge base regarding masks, lung health, epidemiology, etc. and do not believe that mask wearing by the general population is helpful and may create additional problems, especially when it is done while people are spending time outdoors.  They are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated people who are sincerely wanting what is best for their patients, their colleagues, and themselves.  I do not know if their analysis is correct or not.  But, I do not think it is correct to conclude that people who are not pushing for mask wearing are into conspiracy theories, don't believe COVID-19 exists, are uncaring, have political motivations, or some of the other statements I have been seeing being made.   

As far as I know, mask wearing outdoors is more in areas where there is dense population. In my liberal state, it’s not required outdoors at all. And I think people are not wearing or advocating for masks for all sorts of reasons. It sounds like your friends have carefully examined the issue and have the background to do so. Like anything else, I’m not sure that can be said of everyone out there.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

Oh, I am sorry :-(. That sounds very fraught and stressful. I can't tell you how much I wish that this hadn't become a political issue. 

 

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I live in a small town between San Antonio and Austin. My husband is a native Texan from another small town in Victoria county, and his friends there are reporting the same thing; being challenged and insulted while wearing a mask at the store.  These are also native Texans.  

Up until covid, people in these towns were super nice and friendly.  It was one of the best parts of living here and made life very stress-free. Since covid, I've seen some of the most horrendous, rude behavior I've ever witnessed in my entire life.  Like, a woman screaming at the clerk at the post office because the 6 ft social distance markers on the floor made the line too long, and people yelling at each other in HEB over lord knows what.  It was loud enough that the entire front of the store stopped and stared. 

I've been called a socialist, a nazi, a "sheeple". I was also the topic of a lecture from a homeschool dad at the store to his son.  The kid recognized me but the dad did not.  I felt bad for the kid because he looked mortified as his dad banged on about how people like me don't have critical thinking skills and react only to fear, like an animal. 

I'm not sure why you brought up legal enforcement or why you assume what my stance would be on that matter.  It feels like you are trying to bait me into an argument about the constitutionality of this situation, and I'm not interested in that fight. 

I'm very sorry you have had these experiences.  I should have known better than to include info about being a native and expecting people to be (generally) kind here.  I've traveled a fair bit, and most people (at least everywhere I've been) are generally kind, though in times of great stress, anger (which is often just fear acting out) does surface.

I brought up legal enforcement only because you mentioned that your town is planning a public Independence Day celebration at which you said masks and distancing are recommended but won't be enforced.  I gathered, perhaps incorrectly, that you thought this unwise, so I pointed out that your town cannot legally enforce either.

It really isn't my style to try to bait anyone into an argument.  I'm not a hostile person.  I just thought I was sharing my point of view and I apologize for making you angry.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'd still like all the thoughtful, intelligent people to make some other suggestions re high density public transport.

I am not joking when I say the current advice here (where masks are not even mentioned) is 'don't take public transport'.

I want actual suggestions, from the mask pooh-pooh'ers, for safety on city buses, trams and trains.

Public transportation is the only time it’s required in my state for the general population.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I had dinner last night with two physicians--both who have treated COVID-19 patients.  Both have had colleagues who have been infected.  One is affiliated with a major university teaching hospital.  Neither thought masks for the general public and outside of medical settings was helpful.  In fact, they had concerns about it.  They felt that people were touching their noses and eyes more; they were concerned of mold and other build-up on the masks, and they were concerned about contamination as people took off the masks and laid them down and then put them on again.  They felt that being as healthy as possible was important in case you should become infected because your outcome was likely to be better; one way to promote good health was a lot of fresh, outdoor air, in their opinion.  Their attitude was that, if it makes people feel better, masking indoors in public places is OK, but they thought masking outdoors was actually counterproductive.   When there are some in the medical field who have studied the matter and they are of the opinion that it isn't really helpful, it is easy to see why some in the general public are not pushing masks. 

It's very likely that you'll hear different opinions from different doctors.  But there's the other side too.  My brother is a pulmonary research doctor at one of the nation's leading hospitals, and he does encourage wearing cloth face masks when in close contact with others, as does his entire institution.  He was actually one of the lead research doctors working with scientists across the country on what type of materials found at home would provide some protection.  Now, it could be we'll find information down the road that proves it's not as helpful as we'd hoped, but for now, based on a lot of scientific minds, this seems to be a good option to try when there is actually nothing else at all (besides a complete lock-down).  And, such an easy thing to do.

If your child was dying and the doctor said, I have something he can try that could very well help him a lot and will absolutely do no harm at all, and that ongoing studies show is helpful even though it's not 100% proven yet, wouldn't you try it?

Also, even if you might not be finding the "official" studies you're looking for, you can be sure these studies are being done.  They're just being done at a fast pace and so don't follow the usual protocol.  

My brother also studies droplet spread, and what current conditions in a person make them less likely to become seriously ill.  He's very involved.

ETA:  I meant to add that I know you weren't stating that what you heard was your opinion, so I don't mean to get down on you!  Just responding to what the doctor friends of yours were saying.  These are such crazy times and we hear so many things...  So I wanted to present the other side.

Sorry, another ETA:  If it makes any difference, my brother is a Republican and a conservative Christian and probably voted for Trump, and he still strongly supports face masks.  🙂 

Edited by J-rap
  • Like 8
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

FWIW, I'm not insisting on that.  (You may be talking about someone else.)  I'm just surprised that you are quietly going about your business in a mask and that your fellow small-town citizens are calling you names and yelling at you.  I believe you, it's just mind-boggling.

Again, I'm sorry that has happened to you.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

When I said that they had studied the issue I did not mean that they had personally conducted a study on the use of masks by the general public.  What I meant was that they have studied existing literature and knowledge base regarding masks, lung health, epidemiology, etc. and do not believe that mask wearing by the general population is helpful and may create additional problems, especially when it is done while people are spending time outdoors.  They are intelligent, thoughtful, highly educated people who are sincerely wanting what is best for their patients, their colleagues, and themselves.  I do not know if their analysis is correct or not.  But, I do not think it is correct to conclude that people who are not pushing for mask wearing are into conspiracy theories, don't believe COVID-19 exists, are uncaring, have political motivations, or some of the other statements I have been seeing being made.   

I suppose I'd need to ask what their political affiliation to get more of a sense on the bolded ;-). I don't think you need to be a sheep or a conspiracy theorist to want your political party to be in the right. Of course, if that doesn't match here, I withdraw my objection. I just know this to be a confirmation bias I occasionally have. 

As for studying the literature, I'm going to default to my original opinion, which is that doctors are in my experience don't have to use complicated math day to day and don't tend to be people who are very numerically proficient in the first place. (Pre-med student have a certain reputation with people teaching calculus, lol.) So I would guess they aren't getting more out of the studies than I am. 

I am not assuming they aren't well-intentioned, by the way. I'm just don't know if they are more qualified than anyone else to judge. And if they are right, I'm going to be disappointed, because it's going to be either masks or social distancing, and I would personally prefer masks. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I think it's so stupid this has become a political issue. 

I could also do with 100% less of people insisting that because their little corner of the world is humming along nicely that anyone else who's experiencing a problem must be exaggerating, misunderstanding, or outright lying about what's happening.  😠      

 

And for the record, as I've mentioned, I do have a (liberal) former friend who is convinced this is all a hoax and she was VERY negative on mask wearing. So it definitely happens all over the place, not just in red states. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I am sorry. Can your town be called in Texas speak as "podunk" town that even locals from urban areas sneeringly and not so politely refer to as. 

I would also seek to understand why people are feeling that way and look at demographics and cases. In TX not every county has COVID as you probably know. There are like 20 plus counties last I checked not reporting a case . Is it a little town with more cows than people kinda town ?  If social distancing automatically happens because you have so much land and you can't see your neighbor and the number of cases low people might think it happens in the big cities only. Yes, I know the argument about people passing by and rural hospitals not being equipped and agree with it. But who is not wearing a mask ? A store clerk should. Not a lonely farmer harvesting in his field. Lastly, what is your temperature ? People barely wear any clothes in summer here, even us. Asking people to wear a mask when it is going to be difficult when it is heading towards repeated days in the 90s or even 100s. 

I am not an expert more a novice in stats. So here are the latest. 

https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/3f048ced32804271aafe8b9640bcb4a7

 

My county only has about 125 cumulative cases. I think my town has less than 10.  So yes, the odds are extremely low that I will contract covid.  And I would not blink about a farmer not wearing a mask here, because why would s/he? I visited outside with a friend a few weeks ago, and we did not wear masks.  We just stayed 6 feet apart and stood so the wind was blowing away from us.  No issues there.

But inside a store like Walgreens, yes, wear a mask.  Walgreens is small. Maybe you don't need to wear a mask inside a big store, like Home Depot where there is good air circulation and people can spread out.  

I'm too grumpy right now to fully articulate my thoughts, but briefly, my position is this: not every place is NYC and Long Island, and not every place is rural Texas. Whatever guidelines are issued by government should take into consideration what is happening in those locations, with the understanding that guidelines may need to change depending on the developing situation.   

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

And for the record, as I've mentioned, I do have a (liberal) former friend who is convinced this is all a hoax and she was VERY negative on mask wearing. So it definitely happens all over the place, not just in red states. 

 

Agreed. I have family in Nassau and Suffolk counties in NY.  They commute into NYC for work and are convinced the whole thing is exaggerated or a hoax, and there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. 

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

Agreed. I have family in Nassau and Suffolk counties in NY.  They commute into NYC for work and are convinced the whole thing is exaggerated or a hoax, and there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. 

 

Oh, that's depressing :-(. People do mostly seem to be wearing masks, so I hope we have good buy in on average. Assuming that masks do turn out to help, they'll probably be pretty important in the coming year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

My county only has about 125 cumulative cases. I think my town has less than 10.  So yes, the odds are extremely low that I will contract covid.  And I would not blink about a farmer not wearing a mask here, because why would s/he? I visited outside with a friend a few weeks ago, and we did not wear masks.  We just stayed 6 feet apart and stood so the wind was blowing away from us.  No issues there.

But inside a store like Walgreens, yes, wear a mask.  Walgreens is small. Maybe you don't need to wear a mask inside a big store, like Home Depot where there is good air circulation and people can spread out.  

I'm too grumpy right now to fully articulate my thoughts, but briefly, my position is this: not every place is NYC and Long Island, and not every place is rural Texas. Whatever guidelines are issued by government should take into consideration what is happening in those locations, with the understanding that guidelines may need to change depending on the developing situation.   

I think people are looking at cases and getting complacent ? We need more campaigns that explain clearly what are the risks ? For instance how many people are even aware of the singing danger. I live in an urban metro and while it is no NY, as expected in a denser demographic, we have a large number of cases. So people here mask up a lot. What I see more often is people wearing masks and not covering up their noses. Now what is the use of that ? 

I think county wise guidelines are the best with things like masks and closures, perhaps state level.  People should not be weaponizing or politicizing this though. I am sorry though for the response you got. That bothers me most of all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I think people are looking at cases and getting complacent ? We need more campaigns that explain clearly what are the risks ? For instance how many people are even aware of the singing danger. I live in an urban metro and while it is no NY, as expected in a denser demographic, we have a large number of cases. So people here mask up a lot. What I see more often is people wearing masks and not covering up their noses. Now what is the use of that ? 

I think county wise guidelines are the best with things like masks and closures, perhaps state level.  People should not be weaponizing or politicizing this though. I am sorry though for the response you got. That bothers me most of all. 

While I agree with county and state level guidelines, I don’t think strong, consistent federal messages on how to wear masks properly and why they are important for successful re-opening and leading by example would hurt at all.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I'm very sorry you have had these experiences.  I should have known better than to include info about being a native and expecting people to be (generally) kind here.  I've traveled a fair bit, and most people (at least everywhere I've been) are generally kind, though in times of great stress, anger (which is often just fear acting out) does surface.

I brought up legal enforcement only because you mentioned that your town is planning a public Independence Day celebration at which you said masks and distancing are recommended but won't be enforced.  I gathered, perhaps incorrectly, that you thought this unwise, so I pointed out that your town cannot legally enforce either.

It really isn't my style to try to bait anyone into an argument.  I'm not a hostile person.  I just thought I was sharing my point of view and I apologize for making you angry.

 

 

 

 

I think the parade and fireworks show is a bad idea from the start. Philadelphia demonstrated that 100+ years ago. If they insist on going forward with a parade, then they are going to need to either limit viewing or extend the route, so everyone can spread out.  They don't want to do either of those things, so the only other option would be to have everyone wear a mask.  They don't want to do that either. Basically, everyone wants life to be like it was before and they don't want to have to think about covid at all.  When presented with any option to adjust to the situation, people have complained "But that's not how we've traditionally done it!" or "You can't force us to do that!" 

We have a chicken processing plant here that, so far, has not been impacted by covid. I am very worried for the people that work there.  Our local hospital has *NINE* ICU beds and will not be able to handle it if an outbreak occurs at the chicken plant. It's probably social distancing, the weather, and a bit of luck that has kept an outbreak from popping up there.  If we go forward with large public gatherings and take zero precautions, then we may not be so lucky any longer. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I suppose I'd need to ask what their political affiliation to get more of a sense on the bolded ;-). I don't think you need to be a sheep or a conspiracy theorist to want your political party to be in the right. Of course, if that doesn't match here, I withdraw my objection. I just know this to be a confirmation bias I occasionally have. 

As for studying the literature, I'm going to default to my original opinion, which is that doctors are in my experience don't have to use complicated math day to day and don't tend to be people who are very numerically proficient in the first place. (Pre-med student have a certain reputation with people teaching calculus, lol.) So I would guess they aren't getting more out of the studies than I am. 

I am not assuming they aren't well-intentioned, by the way. I'm just don't know if they are more qualified than anyone else to judge. And if they are right, I'm going to be disappointed, because it's going to be either masks or social distancing, and I would personally prefer masks. 

I do not think that they would claim that they were more qualified than anyone else to judge. They know full well that others have differing opinions and they admit that there is a lot that no one knows at this point.  They are able to listen to the views of others and continue to learn.  

As far as political parties, they aren't Americans and do not live in the US.

Edited by Bootsie
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Frances said:

While I agree with county and state level guidelines, I don’t think strong, consistent federal messages on how to wear masks properly and why they are important for successful re-opening and leading by example would hurt at all.

Well without getting much political, I will say if politicians wear a mask you know, like show and tell instead of blowing hot air at press conferences, it might make a difference than any campaign. But don't even get me started on politics, I like this board and would not like to be banned. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

I think the parade and fireworks show is a bad idea from the start. Philadelphia demonstrated that 100+ years ago. If they insist on going forward with a parade, then they are going to need to either limit viewing or extend the route, so everyone can spread out.  They don't want to do either of those things, so the only other option would be to have everyone wear a mask.  They don't want to do that either. Basically, everyone wants life to be like it was before and they don't want to have to think about covid at all.  When presented with any option to adjust to the situation, people have complained "But that's not how we've traditionally done it!" or "You can't force us to do that!" 

We have a chicken processing plant here that, so far, has not been impacted by covid. I am very worried for the people that work there.  Our local hospital has *NINE* ICU beds and will not be able to handle it if an outbreak occurs at the chicken plant. It's probably social distancing, the weather, and a bit of luck that has kept an outbreak from popping up there.  If we go forward with large public gatherings and take zero precautions, then we may not be so lucky any longer. 

 

The meat processing plants near Amarillo (I am not familiar with the area, just repeating information) contributed to the single biggest spike per day recently as they tested more apparently. I have no idea how bad these cases were, I suppose I could look up the county data, but do not know the names of them unless I look at a map. I just stick with my county data for mental health and having information to prepare on most days, state level once a week, I very rarely look beyond that. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/20/859261887/covid-19-cases-surge-in-amarillo-even-as-texas-continues-reopening

 

Edited by Dreamergal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I do not think that they would claim that they were more qualified than anyone else to judge. They know full well that others have differing opinions and they admit that there is a lot that no one knows at this point.  They are able to listen to the views of others and continue to learn.  

As far as political parties, they aren't Americans and do not live in the US.

 

Cool, thank you :-). Do you know what facts they took into account in particular? I am not sure there's all that much out there. 

Edited by square_25

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I think the parade and fireworks show is a bad idea from the start. Philadelphia demonstrated that 100+ years ago. If they insist on going forward with a parade, then they are going to need to either limit viewing or extend the route, so everyone can spread out.  They don't want to do either of those things, so the only other option would be to have everyone wear a mask.  They don't want to do that either. Basically, everyone wants life to be like it was before and they don't want to have to think about covid at all.  When presented with any option to adjust to the situation, people have complained "But that's not how we've traditionally done it!" or "You can't force us to do that!" 

We have a chicken processing plant here that, so far, has not been impacted by covid. I am very worried for the people that work there.  Our local hospital has *NINE* ICU beds and will not be able to handle it if an outbreak occurs at the chicken plant. It's probably social distancing, the weather, and a bit of luck that has kept an outbreak from popping up there.  If we go forward with large public gatherings and take zero precautions, then we may not be so lucky any longer. 

 

Ooooooh this is sounding worse and worse :-(. The meat processing plants are a real problem, as we've seen, because of the cold air and the packed spaces. Nine ICU beds will not do if everyone gets sick :-/. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@mathnerd@sassenach when I started work in the 90s, outsourcing to cheaper nations were already common. Work from home is just going to make it easier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/05/22/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-power-move-may-be-the-biggest-game-changer-for-the-job-market/

“It’s becoming clear that the “gift” of remote work may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Let’s face facts, Zuckerburg and Dorsey didn’t become multimillionaires because they’re nice. They are sharp, aggressive, genius wolves dressed in T-shirts, jeans and hoodies. They know that a person can work from home in San Francisco, North Dakota, Iowa, Utah, England or India. It’s been proven that the available technology, such as Zoom videos, Slack and other products, make it easy to work from anywhere in the world and seamlessly connect with co-workers and managers. 

Zuckerberg can now scout for talent all over the country and world. This could be the worst trend for workers, as CEOs arbitrage the best, cheapest job seekers globally. Facebook will source job applicants who possess all of the right skills and experience and live in lower-cost places and pay them less money then they’d receive working in San Francisco. Dorsey was upfront about this stating, “We can get talent anywhere. There’s a lot of folks out there that do not want to move to San Francisco. They feel comfortable working in a much smaller office or just home.”

This will cause a ripple of serious repercussions. Salaries for workers in San Francisco and other large cities may fall due to the introduction of job seekers that weren’t previously considered. Compensation may also be suppressed due to the overhang of over 39 million Americans who are out of work. 

It’s also telling that Facebook just launched a new group video chat product, Messenger Rooms.This looks like it’s specifically designed to compete against Zoom, Skype, Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. Conveniently, Facebook’s own employees can create a video chat room and invite up to 50 people to join a video call. It will make it easier for their remote workers and also steal market share from Zoom, which has become the Covid-19 breakout success story.

A large number of companies, including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan, Capital One, Amazon, Microsoft, Zillow and others have all announced that they’ll extend their work-from-home programs. They most likely will follow Zuckerberg and Dorsey’s lead by seeking out talent that live in lower-cost places, so they can bring down their costs. In light of the economic hit companies have taken due to the effects of Covid-19, saving money has become a top priority.

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd@sassenach when I started work in the 90s, outsourcing to cheaper nations were already common. Work from home is just going to make it easier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/05/22/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-power-move-may-be-the-biggest-game-changer-for-the-job-market/

“It’s becoming clear that the “gift” of remote work may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Let’s face facts, Zuckerburg and Dorsey didn’t become multimillionaires because they’re nice. They are sharp, aggressive, genius wolves dressed in T-shirts, jeans and hoodies. They know that a person can work from home in San Francisco, North Dakota, Iowa, Utah, England or India. It’s been proven that the available technology, such as Zoom videos, Slack and other products, make it easy to work from anywhere in the world and seamlessly connect with co-workers and managers. 

Zuckerberg can now scout for talent all over the country and world. This could be the worst trend for workers, as CEOs arbitrage the best, cheapest job seekers globally. Facebook will source job applicants who possess all of the right skills and experience and live in lower-cost places and pay them less money then they’d receive working in San Francisco. Dorsey was upfront about this stating, “We can get talent anywhere. There’s a lot of folks out there that do not want to move to San Francisco. They feel comfortable working in a much smaller office or just home.”

This will cause a ripple of serious repercussions. Salaries for workers in San Francisco and other large cities may fall due to the introduction of job seekers that weren’t previously considered. Compensation may also be suppressed due to the overhang of over 39 million Americans who are out of work. 

It’s also telling that Facebook just launched a new group video chat product, Messenger Rooms.This looks like it’s specifically designed to compete against Zoom, Skype, Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. Conveniently, Facebook’s own employees can create a video chat room and invite up to 50 people to join a video call. It will make it easier for their remote workers and also steal market share from Zoom, which has become the Covid-19 breakout success story.

A large number of companies, including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan, Capital One, Amazon, Microsoft, Zillow and others have all announced that they’ll extend their work-from-home programs. They most likely will follow Zuckerberg and Dorsey’s lead by seeking out talent that live in lower-cost places, so they can bring down their costs. In light of the economic hit companies have taken due to the effects of Covid-19, saving money has become a top priority.

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

 

I'd be curious how well this works long-term. Next year, maybe. But once people are congregating again... the Internet is no replacement for that. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd@sassenach when I started work in the 90s, outsourcing to cheaper nations were already common. Work from home is just going to make it easier.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/05/22/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-power-move-may-be-the-biggest-game-changer-for-the-job-market/

“It’s becoming clear that the “gift” of remote work may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Let’s face facts, Zuckerburg and Dorsey didn’t become multimillionaires because they’re nice. They are sharp, aggressive, genius wolves dressed in T-shirts, jeans and hoodies. They know that a person can work from home in San Francisco, North Dakota, Iowa, Utah, England or India. It’s been proven that the available technology, such as Zoom videos, Slack and other products, make it easy to work from anywhere in the world and seamlessly connect with co-workers and managers. 

Zuckerberg can now scout for talent all over the country and world. This could be the worst trend for workers, as CEOs arbitrage the best, cheapest job seekers globally. Facebook will source job applicants who possess all of the right skills and experience and live in lower-cost places and pay them less money then they’d receive working in San Francisco. Dorsey was upfront about this stating, “We can get talent anywhere. There’s a lot of folks out there that do not want to move to San Francisco. They feel comfortable working in a much smaller office or just home.”

This will cause a ripple of serious repercussions. Salaries for workers in San Francisco and other large cities may fall due to the introduction of job seekers that weren’t previously considered. Compensation may also be suppressed due to the overhang of over 39 million Americans who are out of work. 

It’s also telling that Facebook just launched a new group video chat product, Messenger Rooms.This looks like it’s specifically designed to compete against Zoom, Skype, Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. Conveniently, Facebook’s own employees can create a video chat room and invite up to 50 people to join a video call. It will make it easier for their remote workers and also steal market share from Zoom, which has become the Covid-19 breakout success story.

A large number of companies, including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan, Capital One, Amazon, Microsoft, Zillow and others have all announced that they’ll extend their work-from-home programs. They most likely will follow Zuckerberg and Dorsey’s lead by seeking out talent that live in lower-cost places, so they can bring down their costs. In light of the economic hit companies have taken due to the effects of Covid-19, saving money has become a top priority.

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

I guess I though most of this was already happening. The largest growing city in my state is full of people who work for tech companies based in CA. I follow the blog of someone who works for a US based tech company purposefully employees people all over the world. They have yearly staff meetings in a different country every year. According to my friends who work for a big user of H1B visas, the company has long been hiring whoever they want from anywhere in the world by gaming the system. There have also been news stories about companies replacing US programmers with H1B holders from Indian outsourcing companies. I guess maybe they can just be more open about all of it now.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

On the flip side, there is some positive news. Job seekers will have more opportunities—albeit along with greater competition—as they can apply to jobs anywhere in the United States. If you see a job advertisement for a position outside of where you reside, feel free to submit your résumé. The odds are that most companies will adopt this remote-work strategy and consider candidates from various locations. This trend will free you from being relegated to only applying to jobs within commuting distance.”

Some people who live and work in super high COL areas may also be quite happy to take a pay cut in order to move to a much lower COL area, since they may still come out ahead financially, with extra bonuses like less traffic, less stress, more land, cheaper colleges for their kids, etc. And if it becomes a serious trend, it may also relieve some of the pressure on housing in these super HCOL areas, making housing more affordable for those who do stay.

Edited by Corraleno
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Frances said:

. According to my friends who work for a big user of H1B visas, the company has long been hiring whoever they want from anywhere in the world by gaming the system. There have also been news stories about companies replacing US programmers with H1B holders from Indian outsourcing companies. I guess maybe they can just be more open about all of it now.

I am very familiar with two of those India outsourcing companies as my former employer works with them. These companies are heavy lobbyists in India, US and other countries.  Now they don’t need to bring them into US so people who want to migrate through the H1 route would have less chances. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frances said:

I guess I though most of this was already happening. The largest growing city in my state is full of people who work for tech companies based in CA. I follow the blog of someone who works for a US based tech company and purposefully employees people all over the world. They have yearly staff meetings in a different country every year. According to my friends who work for a big user of H1B visas, the company has long been hiring whoever they want from anywhere in the world by gaming the system. There have also been news stories about companies replacing US programmers with H1B holders from Indian outsourcing companies. I guess maybe they can just be more open about all of it now.

H1B visas are attached to a particular company and not a person. So if you want to change companies you wait unto 60 days after getting an offer letter to get the visa and then you give notice to the old employer. It is initially for a period of I think 2.5 years and you can renew it each time. Now that USCIS is closed there is a very good chance a lot of people will lose their status. Many people have bought houses here because a H1B visa holder can get a green card through applying through an employer.  Previously they used to pay for it, now the employee pays. Last I heard the who H1B visa was put on pause, was asked to be put on pause, cancelled. But it is fair to say people are not coming in large numbers any time soon or even going back because they have lives here even if they are on a limbo status wise and a cross continent move will be difficult even in the best of times. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

I am very familiar with two of those India outsourcing companies as my former employer works with them. These companies are heavy lobbyists in India, US and other countries.  Now they don’t need to bring them into US so people who want to migrate through the H1 route would have less chances. 

Most tech companies have a heavy presence in India. They don't need visas for people to come here for work like before. They can just recruit there and transfer work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small town in Texas here and I am seeing fewer masks all the time. I am one of two people who have a mask on at school.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Most tech companies have a heavy presence in India. They don't need visas for people to come here for work like before. They can just recruit there and transfer work.

A friend came here on H1 through an outsourcing company as their client needed a system admin onsite.  The outsourcing company is one of those listed in this article https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-immigration/h-1b-extension-rejections-rob-indian-it-firms-of-visa-power/articleshow/68312136.cms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Math teacher said:

Small town in Texas here and I am seeing fewer masks all the time. I am one of two people who have a mask on at school.

Are you back in school?  I didn't realize Texas was back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...