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Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE


sassenach
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41 minutes ago, EmseB said:

 but I already foresee the summary dismissal of mental health concerns, so no need to do that if you're gonna. 

I wasn’t going to go there in my comments. In fact, if you read my posting history, I have encouraged people to keep exercising for mental health reasons. I have a pretty balanced approach to this.

I am in a hot zone as diagnosed by cases per zip code. My back fence neighbor (urban yards, so tiny) has had a persistent dry cough for three weeks now. I do go in when she is out because she is often just a few feet away from me. Likewise, I plan my exercise for off hours and mask up because I usually pass 20-30 people in close quarters (road is a busy four lane—can’t step into it) in a 30 min walk if I go out in the early evening. Urban dynamics are very different than quiet suburb or rural ones. I have absolutely been coughed on by strangers passing by. Generally they are polite enough to cover and turn their heads, but the kids generally don’t. I live in a very diverse neighborhood—different social norms. If science can help me interact a bit more safely with the world, great!
 

I totally agree about worrying more about stagnant air (I gave up riding the subway in February) and about HVAC flow patterns. OHSU just released some modeling about how restaurant air flow can be improved and where it is “safest” to sit. I came away from reading that study with the thought that I probably don’t want a table under an air exchanger....but that sitting outside on the patio at the restaurant is the best bet. 
 

Society needs to be open. We need the income, tax revenue, and productive engagement of our citizenry in key areas. But letting studies inform us as to how we can best do that should lead to better decision making.

For me and mine, we have some immunological dysfunction that exhibited early on with other viruses. We may hang back a while longer because our risk profile is different. I don’t begrudge others who totally feel beyond ready for normal life to pick up again.

My personal points of concern:

1. Local hospitals are still only issuing 3 N95s per surgical team member to rotate between. They are using one per shift...so one mask may see three different surgeries and several procedures during one day. The electrostatic filtering degrades over time so by the end of the day the mask isn’t as effective and it’s been exposed to a lot of people and their germs.

2. The local dentists are still using sonic cleaning equipment and drilling without using high volume extraction equipment (which costs $3-5k) so a lot of aerosolization is there that can hang in the air for hours. 

3. Tests are still hard to get and turn around time is still about a week. A lot can happen in the meantime and people aren’t incented to pay for a doctor visit to get an order to get a test. A lot of people lost insurance when they lost their jobs. Testing should be easier to access.

4. My friend who works on the covid floors says she is seeing a lot of patients who are having arterial abnormalities around the heart and who are having a lot of clotting problems—pulmonary embolisms, leg dvts, and strokes. I am not seeing that talked about in the news much, but I trust my friend is accurately reporting her case load. 
 

I think you can both want economic recovery and want to exercise reasonable precautions. I don’t like be shoved into one camp or the other by either side. This is the third or fourth reactive comment I’ve seen EmseB. Maybe reflect on why you are jumping on people? 
 


 

 

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31 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I can only say that I am once again astounded by how densely populated some areas seem to be.

If I were to walk to my closest gas station, which I have done in the past, it's about a 15 minute walk,  I would be likely to pass perhaps a single person, walking their dog.  

 

We live not far from you--in the suburbs of Cincinnati. I pass probably three to six people every day on my 30 minute dog walk in my subdivision.  The nicer the weather, the more people I see out. Usually I try to cross the street if they are on the sidewalk. Now, where we live you cannot safely walk anywhere outside the sub, so that makes a difference.

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7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

See, I genuinely struggle with this as an idea of actual day to day life, lived and encountered every day.  

In my world, that was more like coronapocalypse at Costco back in early March.  

This is what “rush hour” in the am and pm look like in my neighborhood. Pre-covid taking the subway back home between 3:30-7:30 pm meant we were standing wedged together (seats all filled, people filling all of the aisles, and people not able to move to get on or off) in the subway cars. I could easily have some part of my body touching 4-5 other people if I was in a standing position by the door. There are easily 20 people in a six foot radius of me.

The clip Jean showed above are what the sidewalks look like...people are walking home, to the store, heading out to the restaurant, etc.

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

 

I'm not arguing against masks. I would like a mask policy that makes sense and puts as few restrictions as possible on people because I think ultimately that gets you greater compliance overall when it comes to public health.

Right..and where you are, and where I am, masks outside don't make sense because you can keep your distance, might briefly pass by one person, etc. But where the person posting lives, masks outside DO make sense, in the context she described. 

 

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22 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The clip Jean showed above are what the sidewalks look like...people are walking home, to the store, heading out to the restaurant, etc.

That’s why DS15 needed to go to the supermarket to see people. He was not use to staying at home and not seeing the crowds. We used to see the “Google buses” pass by every weekday.

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11 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I couldn’t live wherever you are, that would make me so claustrophobic.  Not worth it for even a massive salary 😭

So much is cultural. There's a concept in Mandarin expressed as 'rinao', which translates literally as 'hot and noisy'. I took it to mean something like 'the comfortable energy of familiar busyness'.

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6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

This would be too crowded for our part of Manhattan (the Upper West Side) most of the time, but the density of people would be similar to midtown, when we go down to the homeschooling center. 

There are nice things about it -- people are out and about a lot, so it actually feels very much like a neighborhood. One recognizes people a lot and it's a nice community feel. 

But yeah, it's hard to not be within 6 feet of people.

Well, yeah, I would figure this for rush hour commuter foot traffic.  Let's say you thin this video by half of the people - still a lot of people out on the street.  (I lived in Tokyo and even there you could find times when no one was out and times when it was super crowded and times when it was in between.) 

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
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@sassenach@mathnerd@TCB 😢

https://abc7news.com/health/suicides-on-the-rise-amid-stay-at-home-order-bay-area-doctors-say/6201962/

“WALNUT CREEK, Calif. (KGO) -- Doctors at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek say they have seen more deaths by suicide during this quarantine period than deaths from the COVID-19 virus.

The head of the trauma in the department believes mental health is suffering so much, it is time to end the shelter-in-place order.

"Personally I think it's time," said Dr. Mike deBoisblanc. "I think, originally, this (the shelter-in-place order) was put in place to flatten the curve and to make sure hospitals have the resources to take care of COVID patients.We have the current resources to do that and our other community health is suffering."

The numbers are unprecedented, he said.

"We've never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time," he said. "I mean we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."

Kacey Hansen has worked as a trauma nurse at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek for almost 33 years. She is worried because not only are they seeing more suicide attempts, she says they are not able to save as many patients as usual.

"What I have seen recently, I have never seen before," Hansen said. "I have never seen so much intentional injury."

The trauma team is speaking out because they want the community to be aware, for people to reach out and support each other and for those who are suffering to know they can get help.

The Contra Costa County Crisis Center has counselors available to answer their hotline 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The call is free and confidential.

The executive director says a call to the 1-800-273-TALK can make a huge difference.

"Generally speaking the vast majority of people say they feel better after they call and get the resources they need," said Executive Director Tom Tamura. "With help comes hope. I think that there are people and organizations out there that you can contact that can get you the information you need and resources you need to get you through this tough time."

He said calls to their hotline are up, but not dramatically.

He thinks that could be because people aren't seeing their usual network of support. That is where the encouragement to make a phone call can come from”

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18 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@sassenach@mathnerd@TCB 😢

https://abc7news.com/health/suicides-on-the-rise-amid-stay-at-home-order-bay-area-doctors-say/6201962/

“WALNUT CREEK, Calif. (KGO) -- Doctors at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek say they have seen more deaths by suicide during this quarantine period than deaths from the COVID-19 virus.

The head of the trauma in the department believes mental health is suffering so much, it is time to end the shelter-in-place order.

"Personally I think it's time," said Dr. Mike deBoisblanc. "I think, originally, this (the shelter-in-place order) was put in place to flatten the curve and to make sure hospitals have the resources to take care of COVID patients.We have the current resources to do that and our other community health is suffering."

The numbers are unprecedented, he said.

"We've never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time," he said. "I mean we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."

Kacey Hansen has worked as a trauma nurse at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek for almost 33 years. She is worried because not only are they seeing more suicide attempts, she says they are not able to save as many patients as usual.

"What I have seen recently, I have never seen before," Hansen said. "I have never seen so much intentional injury."

The trauma team is speaking out because they want the community to be aware, for people to reach out and support each other and for those who are suffering to know they can get help.

The Contra Costa County Crisis Center has counselors available to answer their hotline 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The call is free and confidential.

The executive director says a call to the 1-800-273-TALK can make a huge difference.

"Generally speaking the vast majority of people say they feel better after they call and get the resources they need," said Executive Director Tom Tamura. "With help comes hope. I think that there are people and organizations out there that you can contact that can get you the information you need and resources you need to get you through this tough time."

He said calls to their hotline are up, but not dramatically.

He thinks that could be because people aren't seeing their usual network of support. That is where the encouragement to make a phone call can come from”

That is really sad. I know this has been a concern. Strangely enough we’ve had a lot fewer suicide attempts than usual, in fact had the first one in quite a while this week. 

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43 minutes ago, kand said:

. The story from the Bay Area hospital said young adults were the ones they were seeing affected. I wonder how the public discourse about this could shift to not send the message that suicide is a natural reaction to tough times like these. Clearly with the soaring suicide rates over the last decade or two, we need to find a way for people, and especially kids, to get better help to cope with things they’re going through.

I have friends who were placed on suicide watch. It’s harder for relatives to do suicide watches during shelter in place than during normal times when friends of the suicidal person can help in the watch.

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6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I have friends who were placed on suicide watch. It’s harder for relatives to do suicide watches during shelter in place than during normal times when friends of the suicidal person can help in the watch.

I’m sorry! That is really hard. I don’t know much about how things were affected here in terms of access to mental health facilities because like I said earlier, for some strange reason we had very few/no suicide attempt patients, but I guess access must be really difficult where you are now.

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8 hours ago, kand said:

This is such a bizarre virus. I’ve read a good deal in the news about what your friend is seeing. A lot of doctors have said this seems more like some kind of blood disorder than a respiratory disorder, even though it presents with respiratory symptoms. There’s the inflammatory syndrome in kids, strokes in young adults and clotting everywhere in all kinds of people. It’s a pretty gruesome virus. 

I have been worried since this started about all the talk from the very start about how there would be so many suicides if people had to stay at home. We know very well that suicide can be very suggestible in some populations and prone to contagion, especially in kids and young adults. The story from the Bay Area hospital said young adults were the ones they were seeing affected. I wonder how the public discourse about this could shift to not send the message that suicide is a natural reaction to tough times like these. Clearly with the soaring suicide rates over the last decade or two, we need to find a way for people, and especially kids, to get better help to cope with things they’re going through. I hope the trend will not end up accelerating during this. Either way, it’s an issue that needs more attention to solving,  not only during this pandemic, but continuing after it’s over.

I’m in nursing school with mostly young people 20-25 and we’re a small cohort so there’s been a decent amount of debriefing about how we are mentally coping. One of the guys expressed a profound loneliness because without doing things together, he realized that his friendships are very shallow. He feels like no one is calling him or cares to connect over the phone. I think this is especially hard for male friendships, which are usually based more on doing things than emotional connections. 

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12 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I’m in nursing school with mostly young people 20-25 and we’re a small cohort so there’s been a decent amount of debriefing about how we are mentally coping. One of the guys expressed a profound loneliness because without doing things together, he realized that his friendships are very shallow. He feels like no one is calling him or cares to connect over the phone. I think this is especially hard for male friendships, which are usually based more on doing things than emotional connections. 

Also just suddenly occurred to me how the current trend of texting rather than talking to people on the phone might make loneliness feel worse. I know when I used to call my elderly aunt she would often comment that that was the first time she’d spoken in the last day or so.

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13 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

Or could be lifesaving perhaps. Like desert Tuareg men’s veils and coverings. 

https://images.app.goo.gl/vBU2vmFVQ5ExWvEM8

 

Oh - that makes me think of the coverings that all the landscape guys wear in summer - fishermen too! My mom even has some neck gaiters that she uses on the boat, I may need to look more into that. Of course, I THINK they are meant to be breathable, so not great filters?

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

I’m in nursing school with mostly young people 20-25 and we’re a small cohort so there’s been a decent amount of debriefing about how we are mentally coping. One of the guys expressed a profound loneliness because without doing things together, he realized that his friendships are very shallow. He feels like no one is calling him or cares to connect over the phone. I think this is especially hard for male friendships, which are usually based more on doing things than emotional connections. 

Hmm....my adult son is socializing while gaming online...Ithink for gamers this isn't as hard on them maybe, as a lot of their social interactions were already online. 

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1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh - that makes me think of the coverings that all the landscape guys wear in summer - fishermen too! My mom even has some neck gaiters that she uses on the boat, I may need to look more into that. Of course, I THINK they are meant to be breathable, so not great filters?

 

1) I think they would reduce droplets spewing out and away from the wearer

2) for the Sahara nomadic people, such covering apparently protect from sand especially in sandstorms   

Obviously virus is much smaller than typical sand particles, but sandstorms do send sand with much force, and some parts may be microscopic 

multiple layering, especially if the top, eyes end is tight fit across nose and cheddar, would tend to cause virus to do a weaving this way and that to go from outside layer all the way to human inside

3) when I lived in Los Angeles Part of childhood with no a/c and also very bad smog often in summer, sometimes wildfires smoke, loose bandana layers wetted and tied in normal triangle tied bandana fashion were quite helpful at reducing smog and smoke while still cool (breathing through a wet cloth—the water both helped cool and reduce the smoke/smog significantly) 

 

Since viral load reduction seems important, any of that might help

 

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2 hours ago, sassenach said:

 He feels like no one is calling him or cares to connect over the phone. 

I think that's not just true for guys. Everyone of my friends was totally swamped and overwhelmed by work, and I never experienced the " oh now we have sooo much extra time to connect". (Maybe that's reserved for people who don't work?) Everybody has to handle their own crap, and there is limited capacity to reach out to other people, which now requires a deliberate effort even for small talk, since casual social encounters no longer exist. Almost every contact I have had, online or via phone, I have to initiate. Which of course also means that the whole advice to reach out when you're in need feels unrealistic: who are you going to bother with your troubles, if everyone has their own and even a casual chat requires a specific effort? Feels like an imposition on their time. And that is not just my impression,  but several friends voiced the same.

Edited by regentrude
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19 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

 

Just going to point out that in a real-life crowd you probably wouldn't be wall-to-wall white people, and you definitely would see some visibly disabled people in there. I started counting canes/walkers/white canes/wheelchairs when going out and about with my mother after she started using a cane, and most of the time if I'm in the city I can see at least three at any given point.

I know it sounds trivial, but stock clips like this should be accurate. Not that it's your fault, it's theirs.

Quote

I think some Asian cities are even denser than New York, right? Although not Tokyo, looking it up... 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/news/world/2019/07/11/the-50-most-densely-populated-cities-in-the-world/39664445/

Of course, please keep in mind that the residential population, outside of this pandemic, is not the same as the daytime population. These population density measures are about the residential population, I believe. Once you take into account the commuters and the tourists and the students the density changes. Probably it goes up for most of these cities - certainly it does for Manhattan! - but it could go down if they don't have tourists and most residents are employed elsewhere.

Manhattan, btw, clocks in at about 70,000 people per square mile, which you'll note puts it up there with Mumbai and Kolkatta. However, Manhattan is only one part of NYC. Staten Island, where I live, only as 8,000 per square mile (a lot of the Island is parks). Brooklyn and the Bronx are about 35,000 per square mile (Brooklyn alone is the third most populous city in America, if you remember that it was a city alone until it merged with Greater NYC, but because it has so much more land than Manhattan it's less dense), and Queens comes in at 20,000.

Edited by Tanaqui
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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh - that makes me think of the coverings that all the landscape guys wear in summer - fishermen too! My mom even has some neck gaiters that she uses on the boat, I may need to look more into that. Of course, I THINK they are meant to be breathable, so not great filters?

Hmm....my adult son is socializing while gaming online...Ithink for gamers this isn't as hard on them maybe, as a lot of their social interactions were already online. 

That's the case for my kids.  Both have had a lot of online friends for years, so they are actually "socializing" more now because with these friends off school they are more available.   Our lake is opening and a couple friends of ours are planning to join so we'll be able to (socially distancing) see them this summer. 

55 minutes ago, square_25 said:

This one is reversed in my household... DH is much more into talking to his friends on the phone, and I have a lot more casual friends I mostly see at activities. I know it's not typical, but that's how it is around here. 

We are basically a household of introvert so none of us were particularly social.   I used to chat a lot with parents (some of which are friends) at my science center and I miss that.  But it's countered by seeing my adult daughter just about every day when we get together to work out (she's in our bubble).   Other interactions have always been primarily Facebook and that hasn't changed much. 

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@mathnerd YMCA of Silicon Valley Facebook post

“YMCA Summer Camp Registration is now open! Programs have been adapted to ensure the environment and programs adhere to the strictest COVID-19 regulations. 

Limited space is available so be sure to reserve your spot today! 
www.ymcasv.org/summer-day-camps”

ETA: https://www.ymcasv.org/child-care-camps/summer-day-camps

Edited by Arcadia
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Heat wave next week ☀️ @sassenach@mathnerd

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/05/22/bay-area-excessive-heat-watch-memorial-day/

“SAN FRANCISCO (CBS SF) – Just in time for the unofficial start to summer, the National Weather Service has issued an Excessive Heat Watch for the Bay Area starting on Memorial Day and extending through much of next week.

The watch stretches from 11 a.m. Monday through 7 p.m. Thursday and covers all nine Bay Area counties, excluding parts of the coastline in San Mateo and Sonoma counties.

Forecasters said to expect the hottest daytime temperatures on Tuesday and Wednesday, with inland highs in the 90s and 100s. Around the Bay, temperatures should reach the upper 80s and low 90s on the hottest days, with coastal temperatures peaking in the upper 70s and low 80s.

Overnight lows are expected to range in the upper 50s through the low 60s.

Officials urged people to drink plenty of fluids, to stay out of the sun and check up on relatives and neighbors, particularly those in vulnerable populations.

People thinking of heading to the coast for relief are also urged to check with local officials about potential park and beach closures, as the Bay Area remains under a shelter-in-place order due to the coronavirus pandemic.”

 

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3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

You cannot compare a mask for COVID or even pollution to veils and coverings. These are thin and can you can breathe easily. In the desert and even in hot countries, you wear loose clothing mostly made of cotton that is breathable and not constricting. I've never felt uncomfortable in loose clothing and I've travelled and lived in places where the sun is blazing and humidity is non existent. In that scenario, you cover your head and you feel cool. But a mask is not the same as covering your head and mouth with a veil. I do it all the time in Asia with something called a dupatta 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupatta

You can breathe through it and most of all you do not feel claustrophobic in long periods of use. But a mask, even a pollution mask makes me feel claustrophobic and I use it as briefly as I can. I usually cover my head with the dupatta as a veil and use that to drape it across my nose and mouth and nothing is tight around my ears or tied around my head and that makes a difference in comfort level. A veil, covering and mask are totally different in my experience.

 

I think the “veil” coverings of the Tuareg are multilayered cotton, not a thin veil.

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It's one thing to see videos.  It's very much another thing for a person who has only grown up in places with population densities of between 500 to 1000 people per sq mile to really comprehend what it means to live in a place with 10s of 1000s of people per square miles.  The county I currently live in has a population density of 1100 per sq mi.  Most of that is concentrated in the down town area and living in the very corner of the county my location is more reflective of those counties which are 400 to 550 people per sq mi.  

It's one thing to see it....it's another to live it, especially when trying to imagine and comprehend day to day life.  

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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's one thing to see videos.  It's very much another thing for a person who has only grown up in places with population densities of between 500 to 1000 people per sq mile to really comprehend what it means to live in a place with 10s of 1000s of people per square miles.  The county I currently live in has a population density of 1100 per sq mi.  Most of that is concentrated in the down town area and living in the very corner of the county my location is more reflective of those counties which are 400 to 550 people per sq mi.  

It's one thing to see it....it's another to live it, especially when trying to imagine and comprehend day to day life.  

Of course.  But surely you realize that not everyone's experience is the same as  your experience.  And that someone who states that they live in a dense population area (which is also a place with high COVID infection rates) is going to be posting with that in mind. 

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4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The cotton itself is very thin, you hold it up against the light, you can see through. So you can still breathe even if you wrap it multiple times around your face. The thread count is not very dense. In the masks I've worn, even the pollution ones, light does not penetrate if you hold it up in the good ones. The COVID ones I made are high thread count per the instruction I read. I used around 1000 plus thread count flat sheet to make it so light did not penetrate through it. We wear it very briefly and even that I find claustrophobic. My children do not like the COVID masks I made as they say they can't breathe. They do not mind wrapping their faces with a bandana as I insist they do that all the time in Asia for pollution. They have a problem with masks. 

 

So the light multi layer wrappings would probably work better than no mask for the “my mask protects you” type masking.  

Maybe no better than a bandana, or perhaps a bit better from the multiple layers

 

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2 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

In my native country you cannot walk without bumping into anyone. It is just not possible even on the sidewalk (we call them pavements). Even cars fold up their side view mirrors because they will get hit as other vehicles pass by so close. 

This is something that is very common in Asia. People being pressed together during rush hour commutes is routine, traveling on top of trains is normal. 

 

This amount of people -- does not look fun. I feel an excess with my 1500 sq ft house looking at this.

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On 5/21/2020 at 6:17 PM, Arctic Mama said:

I couldn’t live wherever you are, that would make me so claustrophobic.  Not worth it for even a massive salary 😭

But if you grow up with it, it’s the norm.  I grew up in Philly, and worked there in my 20s, and the buses/subways/concerts/parades were typically wall to wall people.  You just hoped you weren’t pushed against someone who stunk.  My dh grew up in NY. 

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2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Of course.  But surely you realize that not everyone's experience is the same as  your experience.  And that someone who states that they live in a dense population area (which is also a place with high COVID infection rates) is going to be posting with that in mind. 

Of course I realize that.

What I said is that sometimes it astounds me.

One thing I do hope is that other people.....people who live that experience.....understand that the opposite is true.  It's not the experience of others, especially those in fly over country, and as such......those of us living the experience of much less population density are posting with THAT in mind.  

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On 4/28/2020 at 5:45 PM, square_25 said:

I'd really like to see if we can move this conversation in a productive direction :-). If you don't like what is happening, please let me know what you'd like to see happen, and how you expect it to go. Then we can really have a data-driven conversation, where we discuss whether your proposed plan meets the goals you've set yourself. 

We may very well find we have a lot in common if we do that :-). 

It will be difficult to have a strictly data-driven discussion about this because number of deaths are not the only metric that matter to people.  Economics matters, also.  And not just economics that are measurable, but lost opportunity costs related to shutdowns that are hard or impossible to measure.  The benefits and drawbacks over changes in our country's direction based on bailouts or not are also not easily measurable, and veer dangerously close to banned political talk; but they are still an important factor to people.

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@mathnerd expected https://www.businessinsider.sg/zuckerberg-facebook-salary-employees-moving-out-of-silicon-valley-2020-5

  • Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg said employees looking to leave Silicon Valley for areas with cheaper cost-of-living may be subject to pay cuts, CNBC reported. 
  • “We’ll adjust salary to your location at that point,” Zuckerberg said during a livestream, according to CNBC. “There’ll be severe ramifications for people who are not honest about this.” 
  • The potential salary adjustments for employees comes after the Facebook CEO predicted that 50% of the company could be working remotely in the next five to 10 years. 
  • Zuckerberg also announced the company will “aggressively” ramp up remote hiring in order to diversify the talent pool outside of those who were able to relocate to a big city. ”

 

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1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd expected https://www.businessinsider.sg/zuckerberg-facebook-salary-employees-moving-out-of-silicon-valley-2020-5

  • Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg said employees looking to leave Silicon Valley for areas with cheaper cost-of-living may be subject to pay cuts, CNBC reported. 
  • “We’ll adjust salary to your location at that point,” Zuckerberg said during a livestream, according to CNBC. “There’ll be severe ramifications for people who are not honest about this.” 
  • The potential salary adjustments for employees comes after the Facebook CEO predicted that 50% of the company could be working remotely in the next five to 10 years. 
  • Zuckerberg also announced the company will “aggressively” ramp up remote hiring in order to diversify the talent pool outside of those who were able to relocate to a big city. ”

 

 

*raised eyebrow* In other words you are going to pay based on their perceived economic needs, not their skills?

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1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

 

*raised eyebrow* In other words you are going to pay based on their perceived economic needs, not their skills?

COLA (cost of living adjustments) My husband doesn’t work for Facebook but he would get a pay cut if we move to Seattle or Upstate New York.

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1 minute ago, kand said:

I agree there are other factors such as economics that matter. It sounds like we disagree on the relative importance of lives, though. Where would you put the balance of when economics or “changes in our country’s direction based on bailouts” begin to outweigh concerns of numbers of lives lost? 

I think some people see these issues as lives vs. economy and some people see these issues as lives vs. lives. There will likely not be a meeting of the minds where people think that one of the options doesn't involve a loss of life.

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Just now, kand said:

Oh, I totally agree that the sinking of the economy can be a threat to people’s lives. Further, I think lives vs economy is a false dichotomy. That’s where I think the safety net needs to be stronger for people. It shouldn’t be a choice of one or the other. On the other hand, I don’t see any possible way that the economy or other indirect causes will cause anywhere remotely close to the number of lives lost as the disease itself. 

Well, the safety net (such as it is or might be) is funded from a productive economy, so that's where we get to begging the question I suppose.

And I don't know about the indirect loss of lives. That will be something people will be analyzing long after this has passed.

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3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Well, the safety net (such as it is or might be) is funded from a productive economy, so that's where we get to begging the question I suppose.

And I don't know about the indirect loss of lives. That will be something people will be analyzing long after this has passed.

Direct loss of life.

Our friends in Honduras are feeding more people than they ever have before. And are being told by those they normally get food from that their next shipment of food is at least 1 year away (and could slide with the way the economy is and how MANY people need food right now). They have maybe 2 months of food left at the rate they are distributing it.

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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"Combining the first two key figures of this study, anxiety from responses to Covid-19 has impacted 42,873,663 adults and will rob them of an average of 1.3 years of life, thus destroying 55.7 million years of life.

 

Combining the third key figure of this study with data on Covid-19 deaths, a maximum of 616,590 lives might be saved by the current lockdowns, and the disease robs an average of 12 years of life from each of its victims, which means that the current lockdowns can save no more than 7.4 million years of life.

 

In other words, the anxiety from reactions to Covid-19—such as business shutdowns, stay-at-home orders, media exaggerations, and legitimate concerns about the virus—will extinguish at least seven times more years of life than can possibly be saved by the lockdowns."

https://www.justfacts.com/news_covid-19_anxiety_lockdowns_life_destroyed_saved

Another one: https://wellbeingtrust.org/areas-of-focus/policy-and-advocacy/reports/projected-deaths-of-despair-during-covid-19/

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13 hours ago, sassenach said:

I’m in nursing school with mostly young people 20-25 and we’re a small cohort so there’s been a decent amount of debriefing about how we are mentally coping. One of the guys expressed a profound loneliness because without doing things together, he realized that his friendships are very shallow. He feels like no one is calling him or cares to connect over the phone. I think this is especially hard for male friendships, which are usually based more on doing things than emotional connections. 

 

Omg, this is so sad. Now I want to call this guy and chat with him about his day. 

Only half kidding, but if he wants a new email/fb buddy to check in on him, this random middle aged lady in Texas would be happy to do so! 

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3 hours ago, square_25 said:


Oh, I don’t know. That’s in the realm of opinion, but my issue is with facts. 

It is in the realm of opinion; that was kind of my point.  Facts are not, and should not, be the only parameters driving decisions.

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2 hours ago, kand said:

I agree there are other factors such as economics that matter. It sounds like we disagree on the relative importance of lives, though. Where would you put the balance of when economics or “changes in our country’s direction based on bailouts” begin to outweigh concerns of numbers of lives lost? 

My priority leans heavily toward the lives of the young and the future of the country as a whole, not with any number of particular lives in the here and now.  What is most important to me is maintaining the strength and solvency of our country, so I'm not counting heads because, as cold as this sounds, it frankly doesn't matter, as long as there is a strong contingent of people to maintain our country and move into the future.  The lives of the young and strong are intimately entwined with the future well-being of the entire country.  I do not think there should be *any* lockdowns, beyond those necessary to flatten the curve, which has already been done, regardless of death rates.  We desperately need tax dollars to maintain our national integrity and to support medicaid and medicare payments to hospitals, and if we don't get those tax dollars for those purposes, we are all screwed because there won't even be a hospital system solvent enough to treat anyone.  Maintaining civil liberties and freedoms guaranteed in the constitution is also more important than my personal safety and more important than my life.  That's really not that shocking; people willing to give their lives for the freedom of their country is a pretty common thing.  

Edited by Reefgazer
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2 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

My priority leans heavily toward the lives of the young and the future of the country as a whole, not with any number of particular lives in the here and now.  What is most important to me is maintaining the strength and solvency of our country, so I'm not counting heads because, as cold as this sounds, it frankly doesn't matter, as long as there is a strong contingent of people to maintain our country and move into the future.  The lives of the young and strong are intimately entwined with the future well-being of the entire country.  I do not think there should be *any* lockdowns, beyond those necessary to flatten the curve, which has already been done, regardless of death rates.  We desperately need tax dollars to maintain our national integrity and to support medicaid and medicare payments to hospitals, and if we don't get those tax dollars for those purposes, we are all screwed because there won't even be a hospital system solvent enough to treat anyone.  Maintaining civil liberties and freedoms guaranteed in the constitution is also more important than my personal safety and more important than my life.  That's really not that shocking; people willing to give their lives for the freedom of their country is a pretty common thing.  

Supposedly when a student asked Margaret Mead what she considered to be the first sign of civilization, she said it was a 15,000 year old femur with a healed break — because it meant that someone who could not walk or hunt or contribute was still cared for by the community.

A culture in which the "young and strong" willingly sacrifice those who are older and weaker is not really one I want to live in.

If we desperately need tax dollars, maybe we should try taxing the billionaires who've seen their wealth increase by $434 billion in the first two months of this crisis, instead of sacrificing human lives. 

 

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13 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

The cotton itself is very thin, you hold it up against the light, you can see through. So you can still breathe even if you wrap it multiple times around your face. The thread count is not very dense. In the masks I've worn, even the pollution ones, light does not penetrate if you hold it up in the good ones. The COVID ones I made are high thread count per the instruction I read. I used around 1000 plus thread count flat sheet to make it so light did not penetrate through it. We wear it very briefly and even that I find claustrophobic. My children do not like the COVID masks I made as they say they can't breathe. They do not mind wrapping their faces with a bandana as I insist they do that all the time in Asia for pollution. They have a problem with masks. 

So then just do that - a scarf or bandanna wrapped around the face is totally acceptable anywhere masks are required  - that's why most places say face coverings, not masks. Personally, i would find what you are describing WAY less comfortable than a mask, so you do you, I'll do the mask, all good. 

8 hours ago, EmseB said:

I think some people see these issues as lives vs. economy and some people see these issues as lives vs. lives. There will likely not be a meeting of the minds where people think that one of the options doesn't involve a loss of life.

And some of us question what "economy" even means when supposedly it is tanking but billionaires are raking in over 400 BILLION dollars during this. Seems the economy is fine from their perspective. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/21/american-billionaires-got-434-billion-richer-during-the-pandemic.html

6 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

My priority leans heavily toward the lives of the young and the future of the country as a whole, not with any number of particular lives in the here and now.  What is most important to me is maintaining the strength and solvency of our country, so I'm not counting heads because, as cold as this sounds, it frankly doesn't matter, as long as there is a strong contingent of people to maintain our country and move into the future.  The lives of the young and strong are intimately entwined with the future well-being of the entire country.  I do not think there should be *any* lockdowns, beyond those necessary to flatten the curve, which has already been done, regardless of death rates.  We desperately need tax dollars to maintain our national integrity and to support medicaid and medicare payments to hospitals, and if we don't get those tax dollars for those purposes, we are all screwed because there won't even be a hospital system solvent enough to treat anyone.  Maintaining civil liberties and freedoms guaranteed in the constitution is also more important than my personal safety and more important than my life.  That's really not that shocking; people willing to give their lives for the freedom of their country is a pretty common thing.  

There will be a strong contingent either way. 

And one of those freedoms is life itself. Our country was founded on the idea of protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Life is the one given first priority. Saying people dying (losing their right to life) doesn't matter while claiming that the reason it doesn't matter is a commitment to rights and liberties...doesn't compute for me. 

A person losing their life is certainly losing their liberty way more than someone having to attend church from home. 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

But you can’t force people to participate in the economy in the same way they used to. If life will not look the same moving forward, that will cause immense economic pain, lockdowns or not.

Do you think that if we end lockdowns, we’ll simply go back to normal? In my opinion, even if we removed every single governmental mandate tomorrow, we’re in for a changed world. 

I honestly thought the same but, at least where I live, it all looks back to normal. The only difference I see is people in masks at the grocery store. Our malls and restaurants are packed now that they are open. People are waiting in lines. People are having parties for Memorial Day all around us. Colleges here are planning to start back in person early August and be done at Thanksgiving to cut down on travel but they are planning for dorms and everything.  I’m completely shocked and I hope it doesn’t end in disaster.

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12 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Are there no restrictions at all on capacity? I had the impression that most restaurants still had limited capacity. 

We’re in phase 3 so it’s75% now. I see no stores counting anymore though, only restaurants. Group size gatherings are now up to 100 people allowed. The only things still closed are movie theaters and entertainment/sporting venues.

ETA: Oh, and playgrounds are still closed but campgrounds did open this weekend. Bars are also not reopened yet.
 

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

Got it. What state are you in, if you don't mind me asking? 

I’m in Indiana. My county has had quite a bit of cases and over 100 deaths. We’re also next to Indy, which is hardest hit here but the people where we live just went back to normal pretty fast. My family is staying in though and doing our once a week grocery shopping. We’re just kind of waiting to see what happens with the numbers.

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