Accelerated Reader with Reversals and Written Expression Deficit

[SCMommy]

I have a 2nd grader that I am concerned about. He has been identified as gifted and talented. He is an accelerated reader with very high fluency and comprehension. His written expression has a profound deficit, however. His writing is legible, but he still has letter and number reversals at the end of 2nd grade. He will verbally spell many words correctly, but will often misspell simple cvc words when writing. His ideas, when expressed in writing, are nowhere close to his grade level or what he can demonstrate verbally, even when looking past the spelling errors. I have an older child who is dyslexic. I do not believe dyslexia is the issue here, due to this child’s ability to decode almost any word and hid high comprehension level. He is clearly not lacking phonological awareness. I know that if I had some ideas for what could be at the root time of the issue, I could begin to provide some level of intervention, but I am unaware of anything that could present this way - which is a stumbling block in trying to find appropriate tools to help. Does anyone have any ideas? I have attached a picture of his writing as an example. 

[PeterPan]

There are some studies of the genetics of dyslexia, and it's possible for him to have *1* gene and be a bit crunchy but not be homozygous. My dd is that way. Her spelling was always crunchy, but her brother is homozygous and diagnosed. So I'd definitely meet him where he's at and not assume.

Has he had a developmental vision screening? Have you ever wondered about ADHD? Did he have any speech delays or require speech therapy? Has he had an OT eval or does he complain of hand pain? His answers are definitely brief, so it would be interesting to know whether the expression improves when he has a scribe. 

He may have some working memory deficits that are making it harder to hold his thoughts and get them out. You definitely could try activities for building working memory to see if they help. In the meantime, I would scribe for him and limit has handwritten work per day to whatever amount is physically comfortable. You could check his visual memory and developmental vision to see if that's impacting anything. A developmental optometrist could do that. You can work on spelling in multi-sensory ways. Like I said, my dd who was diagnosed ADHD was very crunchy for spelling and needed significant exposure and usage to get spelling to stick.

So reversals can indicate neurological immaturity and midline issues. He's young, and they might be within the realm of normal. How often are they occurring? I would be wanting his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist, at least a screening, just to be sure eyes aren't a factor. If he complains about fatigue, hand pain, lays his head funny, etc. those would be red flags. 

His writing is legible, just spread out. An OT would have him use paper with lines. You can buy grade leveled paper on amazon or at Walmart or anywhere. There is pretty white paper with flowers and skies and stuff. Try different kinds. But really, his writing isn't that bad. It's more that it's brief and probably not reflective of what he's thinking. So personally, I would separate them, scribe, and work on the underlying issues (comfort, core strength, hand strength, midline crossing, visual memory, working memory, etc.).

I wouldn't assume he's not dyslexic based on that sample. We've had others here with kids who were reading and got diagnosed. Odds are you'd learn *something* with evals, whether it's SLDs or crunchy ADHD or what. So if you get on the waitlist for evals, you'll probably be glad for them when your turn comes.

What were your ideas for what you would change or do during this time? 

[Storygirl]

http://www.ldonline.org/article/12770/

I'm wondering about dysgraphia. How are his fine motor skills?

The fact that he can spell out loud but has trouble spelling while writing suggests to me that the glitch is with the writing process.

My dd with dyslexia has high comprehension skills, so she could/ can read things that she actually can't decode. Have you tried having him read some long or hard to decode or nonsense words from an index card, without any context? If he truly has no trouble with decoding, dyslexia seems unlikely, but some kids do have what some people call stealth dyslexia, where they learned to read without terrible trouble when young, but the dyslexia becomes apparent when they are older and trying to read higher level text that they can't understand via context clues.

So perhaps stealth dyslexia. But since dsygraphia can include problems with spelling, I might suspect that more.

Dysgrphia can look different in different individuals. But it involves trouble getting thoughts onto paper, either because of motor skill issues or processing in the brain (or both). Many kids with dysgraphia can type their answers and produce better writing than they do when handwriting. So I would suggest starting on typing lessons.

 

[Storygirl]

Schools (and the DSM5) call dysgraphia "Specific Learning Disability with Written Expression."

There are accommodations other than typing that you can provide for him. If you google, you can find lots of ideas online and then try them out.

I think for a typical second grader, his responses in the examples are fairly grade appropriate. Enough so that a school may not recognize that he is having difficulty. You, of course, are aware of the discrepancy between what he is doing and what he should be able to do, and you see the gap.

But he might not meed the criteria for a diagnosis of something like dysgraphia until that gap widens. I suspect that might become more apparent in third or fourth grade, when peers are writing paragraphs, not just sentences. I am a fan of evaluations, but in a case like his, perhaps I would wait another year or two before doing them. Maybe. I don't want to sound like I am giving specific advice on that regard, because generally I think earlier evaluations are better. It's just what I would be pondering, if I were in your shoes.

[ElizabethB]

Reversals are common at that age, Stansislas Dehaene's book Reading in the Brain talks about why, it is an interesting topic.  Reversals are not correlated with dyslexia, people whose children have dyslexia just worry about them more, most children go through a phase of reversing letters and numbers.

The little handwriting with tears chalkboard and figuring out where to start each letter and number (the little smiley face in the corner) helped with my childrens' reversals.

With my son, he reversed numbers longer, I wrote all the numbers on top of every math workbook page and had him look at them before writing his answers.

[SCMommy]

I am attaching a longer writing sample. The little stinker actually wanted glasses because his friend got them. He faked bombing his school vision exam and was flagged. We had an in-depth vision screening with a machine, followed by a double-check with the doctor. His vision is great. His letter reversals and number reversals occur daily. He can literally read words like “exceptional” or “fire extinguisher” and I hear him go through isolating phonemes in the process of sounding things out. He is great at baseball and loves art. He draws very intricate pictures, so motor skills do not seem to be the root cause. He has made an A on every spelling test this year (words are presented as multiple choice with 4 spelling variations). This is a child who has a large enough vocabulary at age 7 to tell me, “It is like I can decode any word I see when I read it, but I can’t spell many of them,” without prompting (no clue how he knows the word “decoding”). That response was when I asked him why it is so difficult to get him to do ELA each day. He has not been evaluated because there have not been flags to prompt it (straight A student). He reads aloud to me regularly with no issues. The breakdown happens when he tries to convert thoughts into written expression. 

[SCMommy]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Having BTDT, here are some key ideas to help you sort:

The reversals may be that he is thinking in 3D and just doesn't want to adhere to the convention of orienting the written letters on paper. Probably reads upside down too.

Is he unable to spell the words correctly in isolation that he can spell verbally? I used to make him write to practice spelling and he would meltdown. I stopped because he always makes an A on his spelling test. He seems to be able to get them down for a test, but loses them as time goes by. He can identify them in print correctly, however.

Does he have the feeling that his thoughts are lost before they get thru the pencil?  Not sure on this one. He says he can’t get all of his thoughts out of his head onto the paper. They don’t seem to be lost.

Is his vision care up to date? Does he wear glasses? Yes - no vision issues and no glasses.

Has he had a patterned spelling program, one that would allow him to realize what phonemes are likely to be used in unknown or unremembered spellings of words. In other words, If he was asked to spell 'skater' would he know what his choices are if he felt the initial choices 'didn't look right'? No, but he does seem to figure out phonemes on his own when he is not writing.

Has he had a penmanship program?

yes

When you watch him write, does he write fluently or does he draw, stroke by stroke?

Both of my children seem to write stroke by stroke, including my older boy who is dyslexic.

Is he using his hand, arm, and shoulder correctly when writing?

yes

How does he feel about writing implement choice? Does the pencil on paper give him enough contrast and is the pencil easy to control?  What if he had a bic flair marker on yellow legal pad - would he feel he could see better and have better motor control ? Does he feel he has enough room on the lined paper? He does not seem to have an issue with spacing most of the time, although his words are large.

 

 

 

  

 

[SCMommy]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

There are some studies of the genetics of dyslexia, and it's possible for him to have *1* gene and be a bit crunchy but not be homozygous. My dd is that way. Her spelling was always crunchy, but her brother is homozygous and diagnosed. So I'd definitely meet him where he's at and not assume.

Has he had a developmental vision screening? Have you ever wondered about ADHD? Did he have any speech delays or require speech therapy? Has he had an OT eval or does he complain of hand pain? His answers are definitely brief, so it would be interesting to know whether the expression improves when he has a scribe. 

He may have some working memory deficits that are making it harder to hold his thoughts and get them out. You definitely could try activities for building working memory to see if they help. In the meantime, I would scribe for him and limit has handwritten work per day to whatever amount is physically comfortable. You could check his visual memory and developmental vision to see if that's impacting anything. A developmental optometrist could do that. You can work on spelling in multi-sensory ways. Like I said, my dd who was diagnosed ADHD was very crunchy for spelling and needed significant exposure and usage to get spelling to stick.

So reversals can indicate neurological immaturity and midline issues. He's young, and they might be within the realm of normal. How often are they occurring? I would be wanting his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist, at least a screening, just to be sure eyes aren't a factor. If he complains about fatigue, hand pain, lays his head funny, etc. those would be red flags. 

His writing is legible, just spread out. An OT would have him use paper with lines. You can buy grade leveled paper on amazon or at Walmart or anywhere. There is pretty white paper with flowers and skies and stuff. Try different kinds. But really, his writing isn't that bad. It's more that it's brief and probably not reflective of what he's thinking. So personally, I would separate them, scribe, and work on the underlying issues (comfort, core strength, hand strength, midline crossing, visual memory, working memory, etc.).

I wouldn't assume he's not dyslexic based on that sample. We've had others here with kids who were reading and got diagnosed. Odds are you'd learn *something* with evals, whether it's SLDs or crunchy ADHD or what. So if you get on the waitlist for evals, you'll probably be glad for them when your turn comes.

What were your ideas for what you would change or do during this time?

I think I answered a lot of these questions on my prior 2 posts - Adding additional information here:
He DOES have diagnosed ADHD and is taking medication for it. His self control has improved immensely. Sometimes, I see improved penmanship since he started his medicine. His dose has been adjusted several times and he seems to be on a therapeutic medication dose.

As far as changes I would make, I am unsure because I don’t know where to start with this one. With my dyslexic learner, I scaffold him when he is reading and scribe for him. We do multisensory activities to help with spelling recall, as well as practice with phoneme lists. I provide graphic organizers to scaffold writing and then discuss any nonsensical answers (ex: When asked how our state promotes tourism he said “People started wanting to come because of cars, roads and hotels. Then air conditioning... I help him break apart the thoughts into complete sentences and explain why the additional detail is necessary with prompting and cuing). I would be happy to scaffold my little one if I knew what tools would be appropriate. He would be bored very quickly using the same interventions that I use with my older son.

 

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

 

[PeterPan]

So the ADHD can explain a chunk of this, yes. He has to *attend* to spelling while writing and hold all this in his working memory. You can improve his working memory by working on it directly (games, etc.) and also you can consider cognitive therapy software like Cogmed. 

Are you homeschooling or is he enrolled in a school? What curriculum/approach are they using to teach spelling? He would probably benefit going through a more explicit spelling approach. There are a number of user friendly programs that are based on OG but meant for the masses. AAS might be a nice choice for him. 

1 hour ago, SCMommy said:

He has made an A on every spelling test this year (words are presented as multiple choice with 4 spelling variations).

Well I'm just having a good laugh here. That's like the expressive language testing they did on my ds using multiple choice. Talking in real life isn't multiple choice and neither is spelling, lol. But you know, it gives you the data that he has some pretty good visual memory (yay!) and that when he ATTENDS to spelling he can make it happen.

So one of the things I did with my dd was to do dictation. Not studied dictation, but just dictation. I used the sentences from Spell to Write and Read (which might be fabulous for him btw) because that's the program we were using. But AAS has sentences. There's another program that is good, but it targets older. So anyways, dictation, whether you let him study it ahead or not, could give you a chance to work together on getting him to ATTEND to his spelling. So you're going to put out a bowl of m&ms and dictate the sentence. And with each word, you want him to STOP and think and search his visual memory and go ok do I know this word? And if he knows it, fine write it correctly. If he DOESN'T know it and he ASKS for help to spell it, then he gets the m&m. Boom, now he's attending to spelling because attending to spelling is rewarded. 

I would choose a systematic, OG lite kind of program because it will let him go the farthest the fastest. I really like SWR. I know it's old school. Nuts, WRTR would probably be enough to clean his spelling up. And working on the dictation portion in the spelling program, where he's thinking through the words and sounds and spelling them out, will build his working memory. Getting that working memory up is going to help a LOT.

Have you tried scribing to see if it helps? Or using a graphic organizer to get his thoughts organized and partially down before he starts writing? Kids with ADHD tend to want to RUSH and they think that if they RUSH they won't lose their thoughts. Instead, we want to teach them to use whiteboards, graphic organizers, etc. etc. as external RAM, just like a computer has RAM. We can increase their internal RAM (working memory) with cognitive therapies and their external with supports.

So using graphic organizers, getting his thoughts into keyword outlines, etc. will help IMMENSELY. You can google ADHD strategies for writing and look for books on teaching ADHD. There are some we've discussed here on the boards that are *excellent*. There are some specifically intended for teachers that show how to carry principles into the classroom. This will get you started. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=teaching+adhd&ref=nb_sb_noss_1  Also if he had a psych eval for the ADHD, there should be suggested books for reading, etc. in the report. 

Do you think what he's writing, with that sentence length and syntactical complexity, reflects what he was thinking? If there's a significant gap, you want to bring in tech or a scribe to make sure he's getting practice getting his complete thoughts out. 

My dd never did get an SLD label, in spite of writing being very hard for her. I spent 13 years on these boards lamenting my dd's writing, lol. She's got a paper she's doing right now for a senior class, and it's late. It's just always that hard for her. And psychs will just say ADHD. Now she did have someone else with a phd in a different area ask why she wasn't diagnosed with a writing disability. But I'm just saying kids do that, falling through the cracks. So it's super hard for her and she has to use EVERY TOOL. She gets EF supports in college, permission to use extra tech, extended time, you name it. We did lots of evals and learned things, but they still would say yeah but not, yeah but not, over and over. 

So I think there's a range and just deal with what you're seeing. If he's in pain, it's a problem. If he's not getting out what he's thinking, it's a problem. He may need significantly more instruction and more *explicit* instruction than his peers to get to the same place, even though it's "only" an ADHD label and not SLD. In fact, my dd was HARDER to teach than my ds who has 3 SLDs. She had so much potential that it was a TON of work to keep up with what she needed. My ds is behind and no one is surprised. But the high potential struggling ADHD kids, those are really hard. I suggest you not be afraid to bring in explicit instruction. Very smart instruction here, something that gets him to think and attend and explains the whys, will probably engage him and help him go a long way.

 

[PeterPan]

You might consider having him draw daily using a program with stepped drawing. It's really good for their EF to have to work in steps, and it *might* help with visual motor integration and the handwriting if there are any issues there. 

Oh, I forgot the reversals. Yeah, OT eval, midline issues. Someone else mentioned 3D. My ds was assembling lego models, k'nex etc. backwards. So again, a reason to be doing something where they look at a model and have to ORIENT to do it in their hands. K'nex was great for that. I don't remember what we were doing that finally resolved it, but along the way it did. BalavisX certainly wouldn't hurt. You can get the book for it and do it yourself or get an OT who can do it. 

https://www.amazon.com/Bal-Vis-X-eXercises-Brain-Body-Integration/dp/0990848809/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=balavisx&qid=1587777545&sr=8-1

[kbutton]

Honestly, this doesn't look terrible to me, but I know that this is an area where we expect kids to be showing some independent at this age, especially if we have work we want them to do solo, and when they are highly capable kids. So, I know it's frustrating.

My older DS was a lot like this in the handwriting and spelling department. He did K-2 in private school with a challenging reading program and very good phonics instruction. No trouble learning to read. Handwriting was iffy. Spelling--he would get 100's on his weekly spelling lists, which were not multiple choice and were challenging, but he could not spell words in "the wild" to to speak. He would spell the same word 2 or 3 different ways on the same page, lol! Handwriting, after he learned cursive, was beautiful but labored.

He does have motor issues, but the are funky and don't seem to be something we can fix when it comes to writing--he's almost 16, and he "carves" letters into the page when he writes by hand to the point that after writing on both sides of a piece of paper, it's texture is like seersucker fabric. It's still drawing to him (my DH also considers writing to be drawing). In other ways his motor skills are excellent, so don't discount that you can have good motor skills and still have handwriting problems related to motor functioning (and my second kiddo has fine motor issues while drawing very well). 

Anyway, my son internalized phonics for reading but not for spelling. We used a program called All About Spelling which is based on patterns. You immediately correct spelling as they make a mistake. They write a word list per day. Once he was relatively fluent in typing (didn't have to be fast, just accurate), we started typing the lists--this helped tremendously with muscle memory because of the patterns, and it improved his spelling tremendously over time (took a while). He is actually a really good speller now.

My second kiddo has stealth dyslexia with unbelievably poor spelling (learned to read with good phonics instruction, but it was a bit of a chore, he didn't read nearly as fluently as his brother, spelling was difficult, and he didn't have great stamina at first). We did the same for him, and his spelling, while still not fantastic, is so much better too! He learned cursive first (never went to brick and mortar school), and I had to break it into excruciatingly small segments to help him learn, and I coordinated it to his phonics. It took him 18 months to be able to write the number 8. Chew on that, lol! He could do it with eyes closed but not open!!! Fun times.

For both kids, spelling lessons were spelling lessons, not handwriting. (By the way, for both, I emphasized developing a habit of forming all letters with the correct strokes vs. being legible, and eventually legibility took care of itself--also, apps and large muscle movement such as writing big letters on a vertical whiteboard DO translate to writing correctly.)

Handwriting was handwriting, not spelling.

Composition was composition, not spelling or handwriting--I scribed for them. If you want him to write his own work out, consider assigning what he can handle as copywork after you've scribed it. By what he can handle, I mean stamina and doing a good job. You want him to be able to do it well (all letters formed correctly). If he can do that for only a sentence or two, choose his best sentences, or make one of his compositions his writing for a whole week even if you do more composition work.

Some people do dictation--I would consider that as it kind of a like a cross between original writing and copywork in that it requires you to think about context and not be blindly copying. It was not a fit for my kids, but it could be for him. I wouldn't do that until you're sure he has decent stamina for handwriting or typing, and he has a bit of spelling work under his belt.

Eventually, things will internalize, or he'll find workarounds.

Some of the most brilliant and accomplished people I know can't spell anything with more than five letters without spell check and/or a dictionary. 🙂 

[Terabith]

That writing sample looks significantly above average for his age/ grade to me.  I think it's pretty common for young children (and he's still quite young) to not like writing and to not write as fluently as they read.  

[domestic_engineer]

16 hours ago, SCMommy said:

I am attaching a longer writing sample. The little stinker actually wanted glasses because his friend got them. He faked bombing his school vision exam and was flagged. We had an in-depth vision screening with a machine, followed by a double-check with the doctor. His vision is great. His letter reversals and number reversals occur daily. He can literally read words like “exceptional” or “fire extinguisher” and I hear him go through isolating phonemes in the process of sounding things out. He is great at baseball and loves art. He draws very intricate pictures, so motor skills do not seem to be the root cause. He has made an A on every spelling test this year (words are presented as multiple choice with 4 spelling variations). This is a child who has a large enough vocabulary at age 7 to tell me, “It is like I can decode any word I see when I read it, but I can’t spell many of them,” without prompting (no clue how he knows the word “decoding”). That response was when I asked him why it is so difficult to get him to do ELA each day. He has not been evaluated because there have not been flags to prompt it (straight A student). He reads aloud to me regularly with no issues. The breakdown happens when he tries to convert thoughts into written expression.

Is he a perfectionist?  I think lots of 2nd graders have a lot to say, but when it comes time to transfer those thoughts to paper, the kids become overwhelmed with all there is to do to get those ideas from their head to the paper (generate ideas in head, remember those ideas, write the words on paper, form the letters correctly, write the words neatly, write the  words with correct spelling).  And then when faced with all those challenges to just answer the question, it's not something they want to do so they just put enough effort to git--r-done.  Then if he's a perfectionist, he's not going to like when he creates words that he *recognizes* are spelled incorrectly.  In other words, he knows *what* he wants to say and he knows what it should look like, but the resulting product is *not* what he had in mind.  (now that I type it up, it's kinda like me and drawing .... hahaha.... and why I only draw stick figures now .... and avoid playing Pictionary.  I laugh, but really, I guess it's the same thing.)

Maybe you can scribe for him to ensure he's generating the ideas for the assignment.  And then at the end have him copy the sentence that best sums up his answer.  That way you can separate the act of generating ideas from the act of handwriting.  Then have a separate time to just work on his handwriting.  And then have a separate time to work on spelling.  Maybe loop the ELA subjects instead of  lumping them together every day would give him more confidence.

[SCMommy]

These are fantastic suggestions! Thank you so much 😊. I have been teaching him to use different graphic organizers this week. He is enrolled in school, but homeschooled for the rest of this year due to Covid-19. He loves to draw, and I paid special attention to him as he wrote today. There is definitely a penmanship issue with incorrect letter formation. When I think back, it was difficult to get him started with writing because he would erase every letter 4 and 5 times because it did not look EXACTLY like the example provided to him. We have a subscription to all of the Nessy products for my dyslexic child. A penmanship program is included in the bundle and I will start him on it this week, while we continue to learn to use our new graphic organizers. Thanks to all! If these two things don’t help, I now have a lot of other resources I can implement if needed. I really appreciate the help 😊.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I think something like half the kids in my homeschool math classes reverse their numbers at this age. And almost all the kids in DD's kindergarten class did. 

I just reminded DD until she got used to it. But yeah, it's extremely common. More so than people think.

and the handwriting tm's for 2nd will say it reverses as they introduce cursive. 

[PeterPan]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:58 PM, SCMommy said:

he would erase every letter 4 and 5 times because it did not look EXACTLY like the example

Have you wondered about anxiety or perfectionism?