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The point of life


regentrude
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2 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

We need more than just to survive, we need to see the big picture. That need is part of what it means to be human and not just an animal. 

Agree with your whole post except this last bit. 😉

Animals have, to various degrees, the need to feel part of a family, to know their place in that family, to love and care for its members, and to find enjoyment in life. They find solutions to problems, working together. They fight and make up. They sing to and play with their children. They sacrifice their own lives for those of family members. They behave badly and (sometimes!) display shame. They laugh, in their own way, and cry. Some mourn the dead and continue to remember those who have died. There is much more than just survival going on there. 

I have not seen evidence that other animals seek God, but I do know, based on Scripture, that they can hear and respond to the voice of God and can praise Him, whatever that means for them.

I think there are many more souls in this world than we commonly acknowledge. YMMV. 🙂 

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1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said:

Yes. Some variation of the Golden Rule can be found in the time of Confucius, ancient India, ancient Egypt, and ancient Greece, just to name a few. It's not specific to Christianity or the other Abrahamic religions. 

Yes! I would say that is the image of God in humanity, revealing itself. One form of general revelation. 
Certainly a good thing, whatever you name it ! 

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For me, the point of life- what makes it more than just existing- is the expression of the gifts and the talents you have that are unique or God-given to you. By using and developing your gifts, you can bless the people around you and glorify the Creator. 

I always think of the scene in Chariots of Fire when Eric tells his sister, "He also made me fast. And when I run, I feel His pleasure." The one scene in the movie that made all my kids weep.

This is why so many of us have a heart for the unmoored young people in our house- they are just at the point of life where they are finding the ways they can develop their talents. I don't see whiny, entitled young people- I see people who are stymied in their attempts to find that for their life. And telling someone to take up a new hobby or a class is absolutely tone-deaf to many, many people.

And for those of us living with musicians, dancers, athletes- *That* is what they are missing. The feeling of doing the thing they were born for, the sense of pleasure in their work and expression of a God-given gift. And honestly, very, very few people have had any compassion for that. Most seem to almost enjoy telling them all the ways they won't be able to do those things again. 

The world is a lesser place without the full range of the gifts granted to the human race.

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I was just watching a clip on TV that showed health care workers' faces, and how they are now getting chapped and covered in sores and allergy hives and so on from wearing face masks every day.  It was actually very moving.  And it reminded me of this thread, because if you boil the point of life down to its simplest form, that's kind of it, isn't it?  Simply doing what you can to help and love others, no matter who you are and no matter what you know.  Everything else is kind of extra.

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Biological imperative.  We are nothing more than a series of adaptations designed to perpetuate DNA.

Otherwise we make our own meaning.  To that end, I think that we should all try to have the best experience collectively possible.

The purpose of society, though, is to do all that in a way that pools our resources for common needs.

Edited by Amy in NH
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12 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I do think that most people are trying to do the right thing because they want to feel happy about their own behaviour.  Their definitions will vary based on upbringing and capacity.  But to support their own self-respect, I think most people are making the attempt, whether they are religious or areligious. 

As a non-believer, I try to follow the Golden Rule.  I don't know that I would say that it is 'the point of [my] life', more a guidebook.  I'm not sure that my life has a point, nor does it need one.  It just is.  It's more like, 'Given that I am alive, this is how I think I should behave to myself and to others.'

Another non religious way of describing it is pro social behaviour. Some types animal also have rules and structures they follow that help give the best outcome to the herd/colony rather than the individual.

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On 4/23/2020 at 6:02 PM, regentrude said:

What does that mean to you? I know common definitions and am wondering what would happen if a person's way of creative fullfilment is taken away from them

 

Look up Maslow. He explains it better than I can. My attempt at this: To create opportunities, to be able to make choices that lead toward a life that is fulfilling and utilizes our God-given talents to the fullest and satisfies our soul. 

For instance, as a physics professor you open the world of physics to countless students. Your talent may be communicating fairly complex principles so they can grasp them and implement formulas into finding solutions, piggy-back off one mastered concept and apply it to another. One of your students could discover something incredible valuable to mankind - you could discover something that will be for the greater good of humanity. Had you chosen not to develop those gifts you may have missed countless ways of making this a better place for your students who benefit from your expertise, for the world of physics and in possibly many other ways we cannot fathom.

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On 4/23/2020 at 9:15 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Well, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand?

I mean that’s the problem, isn’t it?  If you don’t believe in something beyond this life and the here and now what *does* stop you from trying to get yours, from focusing on the things you do, knowing that your inner person and who you are is only accountable to yourself, possibly the government, and your fellow man if you decide that matters? 

This is where I think things get out of scale - worshipping the creation, or the family, or success or kindness or affirmations or knowledge. Etc. And I do believe firmly those things are ultimately empty or shallow substitutes for true, abiding, saving peace.

I think what stops you from trying to get yours is just striving to not suck as a human being in what ever way motivates you. If ANY single religion produced fewer un-sucky people than average we could make a claim for a higher power keeping us in check, but no team is pulling this off and there are an awful lot of selfless atheists out there. There’s something to be said for doing the right thing without being motivated by reward or punishment.

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10 hours ago, OKBud said:

The question is "what is the point of life?" or "what is life?" Surely you expected religious people to answer based on the dictates of their religion, and atheists to answer along purely physical biological lines?

Also: so what is the point of life? Are you saying it's to not suck? What does that MEAN?

Although some of the non-believers have answered along biological lines, more have talked in terms of social functioning or feelings of self worth.  There is no such thing as orthodox atheism.  As one who answered in terms of feelings of self worth: I feel good about myself when I am treating others as I would wish to be treated.  The Golden Rule is widespread within and outwith religions.  It's about as universal a definition of a person 'not sucking' as I can imagine.

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To the thread in general: I have the hardest time understanding what is meant by, “to glorify God” or “to bring glory to God.” That makes it sound like God is the ultimate narcissist who needs people to rally together and tell him how wonderful he is. If we say the “glory” part is not about adulation but is just because humans (and nature, and sunrises, and mountains) are just manifestly excellant and that is what glorifies God, then what about when those things are *not* being excellant? What about things that, as best I can tell, serve no glorious purpose, like ticks, mosquitoes and COVID-19? If all the things are intentionally designed by God (or a deity, choose your name), why have things like viruses? 

(As an aside, I find it annoying when people say, wrt COVID-19, “God is in control! He is not surprised by this virus...” I have so many problems with that thinking I hardly know where to begin...)

When I lost my baby girl at birth, a lot of my struggle surrounded meaning, because, before that tragedy happened, I did think everything had a meaning and a purpose, and that God gave good gifts to his children, not a stone instead of bread, not a snake instead of drink. But what meaning could there possibly be in the precious life of a wanted child, stolen away in the womb, one hour before birth? Ultimately, it became easier to conclude that there was no meaning. Babies are usually born alive but, in that instance, was not. 

Let me please be clear: I know there are quite faithful moms on this very board, reading this very thread, who have buried their child as I have, who still follow God and, AFAIK, don’t have any struggle making sense of what happened. I don’t know how you mamas get there; I personally had to give it up for the sake of my sanity and hope of ever having something like happiness again. There was just never any way I could conclude that my beautiful baby girl died and was born on the same day, and that that glorifies God or has a purpose/meaning. It was psychologically “easier” to conclude that - excuse the vernacular - sh!t happens, and sometimes it happens to me, and praying to God, or being his faithful servant, or purposing to discover His Will made no difference for me, as it doesn’t for millions of people throughout the world, some of whom endure unspeakable horrors far worse than the accidental death of one child. 

To the OP’s question, I agree with livetoread: no “outside” purpose. Purpose is what we make it. 

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6 minutes ago, Quill said:

I personally had to give it up for the sake of my sanity and hope of ever having something like happiness again. There was just never any way I could conclude that my beautiful baby girl died and was born on the same day, and that that glorifies God or has a purpose/meaning. It was psychologically “easier” to conclude that - excuse the vernacular - sh!t happens, and sometimes it happens to me, and praying to God, or being his faithful servant, or purposing to discover His Will made no difference for me, as it doesn’t for millions of people throughout the world, some of whom endure unspeakable horrors far worse than the accidental death of one child. 

 

I've never experienced anything as traumatic as losing a child, but I've had my share of carp to deal with (as have most people who've managed to live more than a few decades). And I agree. For me there was an absolutely tremendous amount of peace gained when I finally gave up on the utterly wearying cognitive dissonance that was required to reconcile a supposedly omnipotent, loving god with all the truly bad and nonsensical stuff that happens in this world. "Sh!T just happens" simply makes much more sense, and certainly requires much less psychological hoop jumping.

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16 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I found it peaceful to give up on the idea of the Christian God I'd grown up with too.

I had some very adequate years as a committed atheist!

Strangely enough, in the last few years, I have had a sense of the transcendental that is reshaping me and my beliefs, such as they are, but it's nothing like 'God'. Maybe more like 'godness'. 

I had a similar experience. I grew up Christian (in a communist country where that was very much against the norm), but always wrestled with the question why an allegedly omnipotent God permits so much evil. At some point I decided that the mental gymnastics required made no sense to me and abandoned the construct. (Moving to this part of the US sealed the deal).

Bu I do have a sense of the Divine. Holy Spirit, great Goddess, the Force... any of those are better approximations of what I sense than the God of Christianity. Even when I was still Christian, I had a stronger sense of the Divine out in the woods than listening to a sermon.
Depression for me means being unable to feel the connection to this Spirit.

Edited by regentrude
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9 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

but if you don’t have a fundamental understanding of who man is in light of God and who God is in light of his revelation about himself, you’re hosed.  If that doesn’t click, at some point, I don’t see how one can square this up and come to a place of peace.  

I am glad you have your faith and it is working for you.

It is quite possible to reach a place of peace without needing to believe in a God.

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11 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I mean existential peace, where they do not fear pain or death.  I haven’t really seen that in the people in my life, though. Isn’t that why you’re asking the question, or are meaning and peace with life’s pains and joys and ultimate mortality different in your mind?

I find I cannot really separate them out.  That could be a ‘me’ thing, though.

No, my question about the meaning of life has nothing to do with mortality. I do not derive meaning from the existence of an afterlife or from pleasing a deity that may grant me the good afterlife or damn me to the bad one. We die, the end. 
To me, having a sense of meaning is a completely separate question.  And in my experience, a sense of meaning  and purpose ultimately causes people to be at peace even while going through pain and suffering. 

My question about the point is really: why live? I certainly lean existentialist, but I am often having trouble imagining Sisyphus happy.

In my other thread about afterlife belief, many Christians answered that they do fear pain. So having faith does not seem to give that existential peace "where they do not fear pain or death" you speak of.

Edited by regentrude
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I have a lot to say on this subject.... but the people on this thread have their minds made up completely and really are not looking for answers.  I just keep thinking of these two points which I have come back to again and again in my life.

1) I will never be able to believe there is no God.  Everything in the physical world makes that impossible for me.  
2) Thus this God gets to set the standards and receive worship as he requests.  Just because I or any other human doesn’t completely understand everything doesn’t mean that there is not an explanation.  

Edited by Scarlett
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14 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I mean existential peace, where they do not fear pain or death.  I haven’t really seen that in the people in my life, though. Isn’t that why you’re asking the question, or are meaning and peace with life’s pains and joys and ultimate mortality different in your mind?

I find I cannot really separate them out.  That could be a ‘me’ thing, though.

Is it about certainty? My dad, lifelong atheist as far as I know, faced his death with equanimity. He was sure that death was the end; he was confident that the doctors would make his death as pain free as possible. So he had as little doubt and distress as a convinced religious person.

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29 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

But yeah, when I’m tempted to self pity over my health problems, or disability, or death, I always flip the frame - why would I be so special that I should expect these things common to humanity to somehow pass over my awesome little self?  How arrogant and selfish am I that I could think, on some level, that poverty or pain or infirmity is an issue I shouldn’t *have* to deal with, because if God is truly good then he wouldn’t give me these things I (in my infinite wisdom 🤭) deem to be ‘bad’?

I agree with the bolded, but to me, that means excluding what the faith tradition I once embraced does teach. I mean, we prayed for your little boy to pull through! (Well, twice, with different outcomes.) Why would anyone pray for a fragile baby, or a cancer patient or whatever affliction if there is no more likelihood of God saving your baby or mine than anyone else’s? And the faith tradition I was taught did emphasize that I was special; specially loved, lavishly and extravagantly loved by God. The Bible instructs us to pray, even to believe in the desirable outcome, even when it is highly unlikely; the Bible tells us God favors us, gives good gifts, wants to be asked, nagged even. So for me, there is a cognitive dissonance there. 

When desperate, I’m just as likely to pray, to beg of God, as anyone else; I agree with the saying, “There are no atheists in foxholes.” But prayer, petitionary prayer, became the hang-up I could not get past. When I was pregnant subsequently, in particular. How could I pray for a good outcome, if that might not happen? I couldn’t honestly pray, “thy will be done,” because truly, I didn’t accept it if more loss was in store for me. So I just could not pray for the safe arrival of my last-born child. I pretty much quit praying at all. 

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12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I have a lot to say on this subject.... but it’s people on this thread have their minds made up completely and really are not looking for answers.  I just keep thinking of these two points which I have come back to again and again in my life.

1) I will never be able to believe there is no God.  Everything in the physical world makes that impossible for me.  
2) Thus this God gets to set the standards and receive worship as he requests.  Just because I any other human doesn’t completely understand everything doesn’t mean that there is not an explanation.  

That is great for you, and it sounds like you, too, have your mind made up completely. Which is perfectly fine. 

I asked the question because I was curious to hear what others consider the point of life. We don't have to argue who is right or not, and we don't have to agree. To each their own. The world would be a more peaceful place if we each could stop thinking we alone are in possession of the sole universal truth and must convince others of it.

Edited by regentrude
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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

That is great for you, and it sounds like you, too, have your mind made up completely. Which is perfectly fine. 

I asked the question because I was curious to hear what others consider the point of life. We don't have to argue who is right or not, and we don't have to agree. To each their own. The world would be a more peaceful place if we each could stop thinking we alone are in possession of the sole universal truth.

My point was I am not going to spend a lot of time explaining my beliefs on this board.  No one really cares what I believe.  Lol. 

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20 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

@Quill

Prayer isn’t like an eternal edict, though?  The Bible teaches prayer is effectual, God does hear.  But that doesn’t mean that by praying we are guaranteed the answer we want.  Just knowing that people love us and care for us in our grief and that we aren’t walking alone goes a long, long way.  Of course I wish my son lived, but I can understand that there is a world where this is the plan of God for his highest good even when it doesn’t feel at all like mine. But because the foundational understanding is there, I can sit with it and cry and move forward, I’m not stuck in a constant circle of ‘why’ or ‘how unfair’ (most of the time, I have my moments 😬).

This is where I don’t think it’s a me thing or an understanding thing, though, but just supernatural peace from God.  And faith.  I don’t think we can logic our way there, and I don’t expect anyone here to do so, which is why these are interesting but ultimately moot discussions beyond a certain point 🙂

Right, no guarantee, but then, why hope? Why pin your hopes on something, through prayer, if it is in no way different than wishing upon a star or flipping a coin? To me there’s something so crushing about praying, esp collectively, for something critically important, like a friend whose kid has cancer, for example, only to have it end in death. It seems worse to me than if one just accepted early on that the doctors would do the best they can, and they would try to mitigate suffering as much as possible, but given XYZ set of medical facts, a good outcome was unlikely. 

I have not personally experienced or witnessed a miraculous turn-around in health, for example. Like, whenever I have known someone with a terminal condition, some live longer, some less long, but I personally have never seen a miraculous reversal. (I should qualify this by saying I do know someone who had a grave, rare disease, who survived and is still alive and in reasonably good health 20 years later. But it’s a little different because, even the best medical minds in the world were unsure what the outcome would be and one could easily say, he got lucky; the treatment the best medical minds came up with worked.) 

I do think one probably cannot logic their way there, but then that makes me feel that, if God designed me, he should know that the logic of it is a big freakin deal to me. So...I don’t know...I cannot will myself to believe something that makes no sense. 

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My point was I am not going to spend a lot of time explaining my beliefs on this board.  No one really cares what I believe.  Lol. 

I do! 😁But I totally get not wanting to spend a lot of time on it.

I think your summary was excellent, in any case.

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On 4/23/2020 at 9:10 PM, ScoutTN said:

I don't know if I have a good definition of life. Human life certainly includes one's soul or spiritual existence as well as physical life, a functioning body.  And relationships, life in community. 

The Westminster Shorter Catechism #1  has a short, but deep answer. What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. I think this results in Rosie's answer. Human beings are their best selves and live best with others when we are being and doing that which glorifies God. Growing, learning, loving, enjoying truth, goodness, and beauty. And yes, even suffering.  Being sub-creators, as Tolkien described. Manifesting the character of God as described in the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control in whatever circumstances we have. We can never do these things perfectly in a fallen world. We are sinners, sinned against, and in a physical universe marred to it's core by sin, but we can still reflect the image of God and strive to do so more fully. 

Katie's quote was about school, career, sports etc. not being one's life. With reference to young people who feel trapped by CV restrictions and losses. 

This is exactly what I would say if I were this eloquent! Thank you!

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2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Well maybe it’s an understanding of the concept of God, along with the supernatural elements of faith, that make a difference.  I’ve never understood God’s goodness to mean ‘and only good things that don’t hurt happen’.  The entire concept of the fall and a sin nature to the entirety of creation, bringing about the twisting of the original goodness and death until it is redeemed at the end, has always been something I haven’t struggled with. 
 

Why do I deserve my children, or health, or an easy or pain free life?  Where has that been the experience of humans throughout history?  Why NOT me?  I am promised strife and hardship and persecution and tears in the here and now, as much as any blessings or goodness, scripture is pretty clear on that, but it is the hope eternal and the joy I can have in knowing I am saved, my father in heaven understands, and I have a high priest in Jesus who suffered and died and with a lot less reason for that than ME, that gives me the grounding to move forward.

I think one can tinker at the edges of theology and have agreements and disagreements, but if you don’t have a fundamental understanding of who man is in light of God and who God is in light of his revelation about himself, you’re hosed.  If that doesn’t click, at some point, I don’t see how one can square this up and come to a place of peace.  But I don’t know how much of that is just supernatural peace and ‘eyes to see’ or ‘ears to hear’ what is in scripture and have no cognitive dissonance about it???

 

But yeah, when I’m tempted to self pity over my health problems, or disability, or death, I always flip the frame - why would I be so special that I should expect these things common to humanity to somehow pass over my awesome little self?  How arrogant and selfish am I that I could think, on some level, that poverty or pain or infirmity is an issue I shouldn’t *have* to deal with, because if God is truly good then he wouldn’t give me these things I (in my infinite wisdom 🤭) deem to be ‘bad’?

That usually cuts my whining down to a minimum, and I can focus back on true things and not depression, anger, or self pity.  Experiencing those emotions happens, sure, life is hard and I am human, but if I find myself dwelling there too long it needs to be dealt with.

I’m speaking of myself here, I think there is a broad range of experience, but that’s how I deal with it and come out the other side smiling and with my faith intact (stronger, actually).

I feel very much this way too, why shouldn’t I have to suffer, it’s just part of life. What I have a much harder time with is the suffering of the innocent, such as a young child being continually abused. 

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18 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think what stops you from trying to get yours is just striving to not suck as a human being in what ever way motivates you. If ANY single religion produced fewer un-sucky people than average we could make a claim for a higher power keeping us in check, but no team is pulling this off and there are an awful lot of selfless atheists out there. There’s something to be said for doing the right thing without being motivated by reward or punishment.

Christians do not obey (trying to do the right thing)  because of reward or punishment, but out of gratitude and love! Picture a cup under a running tap, overflowing as it can hold no more. 

God's love and acceptance cannot be earned or deserved by fallen humanity. Holiness is the standard and none of us are capable of meeting it.  We are saved by grace, through faith (which is also a gift), not through works or obedience. Becoming more like Christ -  sanctification - is by grace also, though certainly it involves our efforts. 

Any teaching which presents earning God's love or salvation by good works is not Christian, not what the Bible teaches. 

Edited by ScoutTN
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There is the question, “why live”? Then there is the question, “what gives my life meaning”? They are related, but they aren’t the same.

To dig down deeper and answer why live, I would (to state the obvious) say that the question becomes harder when one is depressed. On one hand, one has to answer it enough in the positive to stay alive, but depression affects the thinking processes enough to make seeing the positive more difficult. So round one goes, struggling to see the point that is much easier to see when they aren’t depressed. I guess I would say that the question why live for someone experiencing depression is best answered by, “because you most likely won’t always struggle with answering that question.” If you can believe only that you almost certainly won’t always feel this way (particularly if you haven’t had a lifetime of depression already), you can stay alive long enough to answer the question better later.

Editing to add, that isn’t necessarily directed at you, regentrude. I don’t know what exactly you are struggling with, so I’m answering more in general about depression and living.

 

Edited by livetoread
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Speaking only for myself, but I absolutely am motivated by a healthy fear of God and His temporal and eternal justice. 

I'm a Christian out of necessity. I am not at all a good person; take my word for it. Having come to believe in the reality of Jesus, I have only one option.

"From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, 'Do you also want to go away?' But Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'"

Edited by MercyA
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37 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Any teaching which presents earning God's love or salvation by good works is not Christian, not what the Bible teaches. 

It is, however, a very pervasive teaching, at least in this part of the country. If you do xyz, you will be going to hell, so you have to mend you ways. 
My kids being accosted like that by self-proclaimed "Christians" definitely contributed to my resolve never to associate with organized religion again.

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50 minutes ago, livetoread said:

There is the question, “why live”? Then there is the question, “what gives my life meaning”? They are related, but they aren’t the same.

To me, these are exactly the same. If there is no meaning, then there is no answer to the question why live, and that means there is no point.
The meaning can, for some, be derived from duty: duty to procreate, duty to raise their kids to adulthood, duty to serve a deity. Others find other meanings. I very much want another meaning beyond living solely out of responsibility and duty..

 "why live" can be construed as the most fundamental question beyond which all other questions are secondary.  Because if we can't answer that, then what is the point in anything? I am very much with Camus here, although, whether I agree with his conclusion or not, is variable.

 

Edited by regentrude
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I was raised nominally Christian, but without any emphasis on faith in our day to day life. I remember my dad wondering out loud to me once when I was a young teen that maybe God looks at us kind of like we do pet goldfish in a bowl - He knows we're there, but He doesn't really care about us all that much. I cannot overemphasize how soul crushingly devastating this philosophy was to me, although my dad I'm sure just thought he was having an academic discussion. If there was a God and He didn't care about me, then there was no point to anything and literally nothing I did mattered. At all. This led me into some very dark and self-harmful behaviors searching for meaning and for something, anything, in this world to care about me.

I was fascinated by what people do and why and how we come to be who we are, so I majored in psychology and minored in anthropology, and I thought I'd found the keys to meaning in the process of human evolution (on a species level) and self-actualization (on an individual level). But I found there to be a pretty significant amount of cognitive dissonance involved in both believing that life and consciousness arose from chance and simultaneously trying to assert that there could be any meaning at all in the world.

I simply refused to believe that there was no meaning to be found. Looking at the natural world in all its splendor and complexity and being introduced to loving relationships beyond just my parents (who were biologically required to care about me) pretty much negated that possibility for me. If we are all just blobs of DNA looking to reproduce, then beauty and complexity and love are not required, and in fact they kind of hamper the efficiency of the process. 

And if there was meaning to be found, then it logically followed that some Being higher than humans and outside the bounds of the dictates of our DNA had to have created and defined what that meaning is.

So then I was left wondering what sort of Being that might be. I had explored and experimented with all sorts of types of spirituality in my search for meaning. They were all intensely interesting and I found nuggets that resonated with me in all of them.

But none of them satisfied my belief and desire for unconditional limitless love that had nothing to do with biology until I was introduced to Christians with a real, abiding faith which made a huge impact on how they both saw and interacted with the world. They weren't perfect people by any means, but the God and His Son Jesus that was described in their Bibles satisfied my conviction that my life is not an accident and neither is anyone else's.

I don't claim to understand everything about how God works or about those times when He is silent or says no to my heartfelt pleas in prayer, but the path I took to get to this faith was hard won and searched out methodically, and that faith gives me purpose and fills my life with meaning.

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1 minute ago, Momto6inIN said:

And if there was meaning to be found, then it logically followed that some Being higher than humans and outside the bounds of the dictates of our DNA had to have created and defined what that meaning is.

How does that follow logically?

 

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4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

How does that follow logically?

 

If I, as a chance product of DNA and biological processes, could not provide meaning to myself (which I experienced when I tried) or to anyone else (which I extrapolated I guess) then no other product of DNA or biological processes could provide meaning to me or anyone else either. 

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I have to run out the door and don't have time to search back to see what posts triggered my answer here:

The point of my life revolves around discovering and living out what I accept is the REALITY.  In other words, I believe that God is REAL.  That the descriptions of Him in the Bible are REAL and give an accurate description of a reality that goes across time and beyond.  I worship Him because He is the creator of all that we can empirically see as real (ie. the known Universe) but also because He is outside of all of that and is who defines meaning itself.  I don't set the standard to judge Him by.  I conform to Him and His standards.  

The point of my life every day is doing what I believe He wants me to do in that moment.  Some of that is easy - I have responsibilities within my family and society and I believe that I am supposed to fulfill those responsibilities as I can each day.  When I fail through mistakes I correct them if possible and move on.  When I fail through sin (putting my will over God's will and missing His standards of righteousness) then I rely on the fact that Jesus Christ paid the consequences for those sins on the cross.  I confess those to God and move on.  If I do something that misses the standards of the legal establishment and I am caught (more in line with something like speeding in my case) then I pay the consequences set by the state (ie. my traffic ticket). 

But God also stretches me outside of my comfort zone all the time.  Sometimes in gut-wrenching fall to your knees sort of ways.  I see it as my responsibility to still seek Him.  To still serve Him.  And most of all to rely on Him to not only get me through it but to help me to actually grow through it.  Serving Him by serving others is not always met with cheery thank yous and feel good pats on the back.  Often it is thankless and love can even be met with abuse.  But I am called to do it anyway because I am fundamentally serving God even as I am serving people.  I don't see the full meaning of why God does everything in the tapestry of my life or in the greater tapestry of society but I trust that there is a greater purpose.  Books can be (and have been) written about all this and I've run out of time. 

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
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5 hours ago, regentrude said:

It is, however, a very pervasive teaching, at least in this part of the country. If you do xyz, you will be going to hell, so you have to mend you ways. 
My kids being accosted like that by self-proclaimed "Christians" definitely contributed to my resolve never to associate with organized religion again.

The bolded is so wrong in so many ways. I am sorry for your  kids' bad experiences. 

Christianity does have truth claims regarding sin and salvation which are of themselves offensive to many people, but those claims should be presented with grace and gentleness.

"Be good so that you go to heaven, not hell," is what many religions teach, but is the exact opposite of the Christian gospel. 

Edited by ScoutTN
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6 hours ago, MercyA said:

Speaking only for myself, but I absolutely am motivated by a healthy fear of God and His temporal and eternal justice. 

I'm a Christian out of necessity. I am not at all a good person; take my word for it. Having come to believe in the reality of Jesus, I have only one option.

 

If you're decent enough to find one excuse to behave yourself, you're decent enough to find another if you need one.

 

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25 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

If you're decent enough to find one excuse to behave yourself, you're decent enough to find another if you need one.

Oh, sure, I totally get that. I seriously doubt anyone on this thread is just living for themselves and doing whatever they feel like doing, regardless of the consequences to others. 

A big part of it for me, though, is that I do firmly believe in an afterlife, where I'll be accountable for the decisions I made here. Certainly everyone is accountable to someone--themselves, their family, their community. But thinking about eternal consequences in addition to life-long ones is a sobering and fearful thing for me and affects how I view the meaning of life. 

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17 hours ago, regentrude said:

To me, these are exactly the same. If there is no meaning, then there is no answer to the question why live, and that means there is no point.
The meaning can, for some, be derived from duty: duty to procreate, duty to raise their kids to adulthood, duty to serve a deity. Others find other meanings. I very much want another meaning beyond living solely out of responsibility and duty..

 "why live" can be construed as the most fundamental question beyond which all other questions are secondary.  Because if we can't answer that, then what is the point in anything? I am very much with Camus here, although, whether I agree with his conclusion or not, is variable.

 

Maybe it’s better to phrase it “why keep living”.  Once you have kids you kind of have a responsibility to do that whether you want to or not.  Because it messes up people around you when you choose not to.  Choosing not to live increases difficulty for others around you.  The choice to create a new life of not requires an answer to the other question though.  If there’s no point to life there’s no point to creating another life and you aren’t causing suffering by not doing that.  
 

Edited by Ausmumof3
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17 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I have to run out the door and don't have time to search back to see what posts triggered my answer here:

The point of my life revolves around discovering and living out what I accept is the REALITY.  In other words, I believe that God is REAL.  That the descriptions of Him in the Bible are REAL and give an accurate description of a reality that goes across time and beyond.  I worship Him because He is the creator of all that we can empirically see as real (ie. the known Universe) but also because He is outside of all of that and is who defines meaning itself.  I don't set the standard to judge Him by.  I conform to Him and His standards.  

The point of my life every day is doing what I believe He wants me to do in that moment.  Some of that is easy - I have responsibilities within my family and society and I believe that I am supposed to fulfill those responsibilities as I can each day.  When I fail through mistakes I correct them if possible and move on.  When I fail through sin (putting my will over God's will and missing His standards of righteousness) then I rely on the fact that Jesus Christ paid the consequences for those sins on the cross.  I confess those to God and move on.  If I do something that misses the standards of the legal establishment and I am caught (more in line with something like speeding in my case) then I pay the consequences set by the state (ie. my traffic ticket). 

But God also stretches me outside of my comfort zone all the time.  Sometimes in gut-wrenching fall to your knees sort of ways.  I see it as my responsibility to still seek Him.  To still serve Him.  And most of all to rely on Him to not only get me through it but to help me to actually grow through it.  Serving Him by serving others is not always met with cheery thank yous and feel good pats on the back.  Often it is thankless and love can even be met with abuse.  But I am called to do it anyway because I am fundamentally serving God even as I am serving people.  I don't see the full meaning of why God does everything in the tapestry of my life or in the greater tapestry of society but I trust that there is a greater purpose.  Books can be (and have been) written about all this and I've run out of time. 

I needed to read this today

thank you. 

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Maybe it’s better to phrase it “why keep living”.  Once you have kids you kind of have a responsibility to do that whether you want to or not.  Because it messes up people around you when you choose not to.  Choosing not to live increases difficulty for others around you.  

That is what I meant by living out of responsibility and duty. Not wanting to make things difficult for other people may be a practical reason for people to stay alive (is that the same as living?) and can be an effective suicide deterrent, but it doesn't create the meaning and purpose I speak of.  It also puts a heavy burden on the loved ones, if they are the sole reason for this person's continued existence. And then you have the cases where it actually would be less difficult for the loved ones if the person weren't there - surely that should not create a responsibility for the person to off themselves? I think the idea that our purpose is to not make things difficult for other people is fraught with peril.

Quote

The choice to create a new life of not requires an answer to the other question though.  If there’s no point to life there’s no point to creating another life and you aren’t causing suffering by not doing that. 

The biological impulse to procreate and the societal norm of having children create a strong desire to have children in many people, without them pausing to ponder the purpose of life. It's just what you do. Many parents do find their personal meaning of life in raising their children (which is not without its own problems).  

Edited by regentrude
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On 4/23/2020 at 8:52 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

The point of life is to self actualise and help other people self actualise if you can do so without being too obnoxious about it.

 

So sayeth me.

 

And, in the meantime, to eat tasty things because it'd be a damned waste not to.

Love this. 

On 4/23/2020 at 8:38 PM, regentrude said:

 

I inspired a spin off! Cool!

On 4/23/2020 at 11:55 PM, MercyA said:

Many of my Catholic friends have seemed to think at various points that I was right on the verge of converting. I have not 😉although there are of course things I admire and things that appeal to me in the Catholic Church. 

LOL, yeah...that happens

On 4/24/2020 at 10:12 AM, MercyA said:

🙂 

The sticking point for me is some of the prayers. Often I was the lone non-Catholic at protests and vigils and learned a few of my friends' favorite prayers by heart. But that is a topic for another day. 😉 

Interesting! The prayers themselves or the theology/ideas expressed in them? You don't have to answer, I've just never heard of that as a reason...and I've heard lots of reasons, lol. And as someone currently in self imposed exile, I have my own reasons as well. 

On 4/24/2020 at 1:09 PM, MercyA said:

Yes! I feel the same toward the Catholic Church, but find my beliefs align most closely with Anabaptism. 

It's funny - the more I learned about these two traditions the more similar I found them, and yet on the surface they seem so very very different. I don't know that I've seen many others also comment on the similarities - mostly in the way both put on emphasis on how you live day to day, not just what you believe.I greatly respect the consistency in some Anabaptist beliefs. For instance, in Catholic homeschool circles there is a lot of discussion about if it is important to cover one's head in church. I fell down a significant rabbit hole looking at the reasonings for why it was still important vs not needed, and came to the conclusion that IF headcoverings are required in church, than the anabaptist traditions that require headcoverings at all times, not just in church, have the better argument. That either it was required whenever praying, or it wasn't required at all. 

And although I'm not a fan of many traditions of the Amish, I do find it fascinating the way the size of their communities is limited in a way that mirrors what sociologists have come to think is the true size of early human communities. And the size that best reflects how many people a human brain is capable of having relationships with.

I also enjoy Amish romance novels, but that's a whole other thing, lol. 

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31 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is what I meant by living out of responsibility and duty. Not wanting to make things difficult for other people may be a practical reason for people to stay alive (is that the same as living?) and can be an effective suicide deterrent, but it doesn't create the meaning and purpose I speak of.  It also puts a heavy burden on the loved ones, if they are the sole reason for this person's continued existence. And then you have the cases where it actually would be less difficult for the loved ones if the person weren't there - surely that should not create a responsibility for the person to off themselves? I think the idea that our purpose is to not make things difficult for other people is fraught with peril.

The biological impulse to procreate and the societal norm of having children create a strong desire to have children in many people, without them pausing to ponder the purpose of life. It's just what you do. Many parents do find their personal meaning of life in raising their children (which is not without its own problems).  

That’s what I think was being got at in the difference between the statements - exactly what you said.  The difference between why life and what is the point of life.  The answer to why live can be about duty and not making others to suffer but it shouldn’t be the point of life.  Or the meaning for you.

i think the other answer for me aside from the religious one is learning about new stuff.  I look ahead and there’s not enough time in life to learn all the stuff I want to learn and explore.  It’s why occasionally parenting can feel a bit challenging because it takes up so much of us that there’s no time for that.  When I’ve been depressed it’s been because all my time is consumed on survival tasks with nothing left for learning.  
 

I know that answer is absolutely not true for everyone.  For some people it’s about dealing with people’s feelings and emotions and loving them.  For some it’s figuring out a million different ways to kick a perfect goal in AFL.  Even for those of us who talk about religion there is variation.  For some it’s finding out all about the amazing world that we think he designed (science) for someone else it’s about making perfect music for praise etc.

but I think you are looking for the answer for you personally.  And it relates to the questions you were asking a couple of years back along the lines of what next and maybe you started writing poetry from memory?  Maybe you really just need a new project?

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I don't know that I have a defined idea of "purpose of life" or what not. I do believe the old catechism idea of "to know, love, and serve god so that I can be happy with him forever in heaven". (and heartily believe in catechisms in general, because then if anyone asks me this question I have a ready answer, lol)

But what does that answer mean? What does it mean to "serve God"? Well, I am taught and I fully truly believe that man is made in God's image. That how we treat others on earth is how we treat God - the whole bit about "I was hungry and you fed me" bit. So we serve God by serving others. That is a large part of our purpose. 

How do we love God? We love God by loving what he has made and thanking him for it. So that can be a quick prayer of praise when we spot a glorious sunset or formal prayer at church. It can be the "wow" you say at the top of a mountain. And because again, man is made in God's image, and because we are taught that what we do for others we do for God, we love God by loving our fellow humans. 

How do we know God? Sure, we read scripture, and discuss theology, but we also know God better when we study his creation. Learning about the world around us, science, anthropology, sociology, mathematics, etc helps us to know him. So part of our purpose is to learn and be curious. 

And the kicker to all this is that we are also called to, "love our neighbor as ourself." And usually people think that means to love others MORE than ourselves. But it doesn't. Sure, some people need to be reminded to treat others better. But a lot of people need to be reminded to treat themselves better! To remember to care for themselves, not just others. So we are called to care for ourselves, that is part of our purpose. 

And most of this ties into the idea of the dignity of the human person. I fully embrace the Catholic idea of the innate value and dignity of life. So if nothing else, the reason for living is because life is valuable and precious and we are to treat it as such. Not helpful to someone without that belief, I'm sure. 

So in simpler every day terms, my purpose or intentions in life are to learn, love and serve. And I do this doing the best I can with what I have. If I have depression, my ability to love and serve may be less than if I don't. If I have a disease that renders me bedbound, my ability to serve others may be less. If I have an intellectual disability by ability to learn may be less than it would be. But I can still do those things in some way. And that gives purpose, I think. 

(disclaimer that I know I'm punching way above my pay grade here, and am only half caffeinated)

Edited to add: obviously the lack of caffeine is to blame for that horrible mixed metaphor!

Edited by Ktgrok
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4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

It's funny - the more I learned about these two traditions the more similar I found them, and yet on the surface they seem so very very different. I don't know that I've seen many others also comment on the similarities -

When I transitioned from being Catholic to an Anabaptist faith I noticed the same thing - especially the emphasis on ritual and tradition. Funnily enough, none of the people in my life - Catholics and Anabaptists alike - appreciated being compared to each other LOL

Edited by Momto6inIN
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4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Interesting! The prayers themselves or the theology/ideas expressed in them? 

Both. Thinking especially of Hail Holy Queen. (And, please, dear Catholic friends, I have heard and read SO many apologetics re: this topic. Love you but don't want to get into it right now. 🙂)

It's funny - the more I learned about these two traditions the more similar I found them, and yet on the surface they seem so very very different. I don't know that I've seen many others also comment on the similarities - mostly in the way both put on emphasis on how you live day to day, not just what you believe.

That is interesting, since they are the only two denominations / traditions I've felt specifically drawn to. 

My MIL was Amish for the first 20-ish years of her life. She has often said that the beliefs of the Catholic nuns she has known reminded her STRONGLY of the beliefs of the Amish church in which she grew up. She was not a fan of either--she became very anti-works-theology, IYKWIM, after leaving the Amish church. To me that is unfortunate, since the New Testament speaks over and over of the importance of good works (not that they alone are sufficient to save). 

When I started wearing a head covering she was horrified and actually asked, "Do you still believe you are saved by grace?" What in the world. 🙂 I wanted to say, "Do you give offerings at church because the Bible tells you to? Then you must not believe you are saved by grace, right?” 😉

But in all fairness she and her sisters were told if that Jesus came back and their coverings weren’t on they would go to hell, so I can hardly blame her for her pendulum swinging too far the other way (in my view). There are good Amish churches with truly Biblical thinking and teaching and then there are others with harmful and legalistic beliefs. A lot depends on the individual bishops.

I see the head covering as a physical ordinance which is not much different than taking communion or being baptized--but that is a topic for another day. 

I, too, greatly appreciate the consistency in the beliefs of both conservative Anabaptists and Catholics. The inconsistency I see in a lot of evangelical churches drives me nutty.

 

Edited by MercyA
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23 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'm not sure how to explain the ways in which I think the question of meaning-making and suicidality are disconnected, and it's got something to do with that fact that humans are remarkably good at making-meaning (and yes, sometimes acting on suicidal thinking is a form of making meaning, but an incredibly destructive one).

I don't think people act on suicidal feelings because their lives lack meaning; I think they act on suicidal feelings, because we don't understand the brain very well, and we don't understand illnesses affecting thought and feeling processes very well, and that lack of meaning may be a symptom of depression, and not a cause, and unfortunately, we're not very good at finding treatments for the not-well-understood cause.

Anyway, I think it's worth treating painful and repetitive existential questioning as a kind of red flag, and as a prompt to seek out mental health care.

I don't want to mix up the two things. The only reason I mentioned the topic of suicide in my previous post was that I know people for whom the thought of their family members acts as a very effective motivation to stay alive - but this is not what I consider the same thing as the "meaning" or "purpose" I am talking about. Sorry if I was not more clear here.

OTOH, thinking along the lines of Victor Frankl's Logotherapy, existential crises and resulting depression can be caused by a lack of meaning, and can be solved by finding meaning. That's the whole point of his theory, if I understand it correctly. Even though this is clearly an older approach, I find his reasoning very compelling.
A crisis caused by lack of meaning can be viewed akin to a Dark Night of the Soul, a spiritual crisis, which certainly presents with depression like symptoms, but is not really the same thing. And I do not think the same approaches that regulate a chemical imbalance or teach better recognition of cognitive biases and constructive responses helps with a crisis of meaning. I do not think a fundamental human striving is pathological, even though it may share symptoms with conditions that are.

 

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

The brain is the brain. 

I don't know that there are clear demarcation lines between 'good' existential brooding and 'bad' existential brooding.

Yes, an existential crisis can be part of making meaning, but I suppose to be 'good', the process needs to be active, and engaged.  And often it need an 'other' to help the process stay active and engaged, and not become derailed by our own thinking patterns, which can be influenced by depression, a feature of existential crises.

If the 'good' crisis thinking becomes repetitive, intrusive, painful...well....how is that different from 'bad' crisis thinking that becomes repetitive, intrusive, painful ?

I don't find it helpful to think in these strict binaries. 

For me personally, I actually did find it very helpful to distinguish between the two things. There may be a continuum, I agree, as there are no strict binaries, but to me, it makes a big difference whether I am dealing with a chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated or a fundamental life question that needs to be answered. The outlook and approach are fundamentally different to me.

We can agree to disagree here.  It is something I feel very strongly about.

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