The point of life

[regentrude]

I thought of replying the the States opening thread, but perhaps this is better in its own spin-off.

IN the other thread, @Ktgrok wrote 

Quote

Right. But those things are not life itself. They may feel like it, but they aren't. Anymore than someone losing their sight loses their life, etc. It sucks, but it isn't the end. "

Serious philosophical question: So what is "life itself"? And what is the point of life? 

Edited April 24, 2020 by regentrude

[Rosie_0801]

The point of life is to self actualise and help other people self actualise if you can do so without being too obnoxious about it.

 

So sayeth me.

 

And, in the meantime, to eat tasty things because it'd be a damned waste not to.

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

The point of life is to self actualise and help other people self actualise if you can do so without being too obnoxious about it.

What does that mean to you? I know common definitions and am wondering what would happen if a person's way of creative fullfilment is taken away from them

[ScoutTN]

I don't know if I have a good definition of life. Human life certainly includes one's soul or spiritual existence as well as physical life, a functioning body.  And relationships, life in community. 

The Westminster Shorter Catechism #1  has a short, but deep answer. What is the chief end of man? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. I think this results in Rosie's answer. Human beings are their best selves and live best with others when we are being and doing that which glorifies God. Growing, learning, loving, enjoying truth, goodness, and beauty. And yes, even suffering.  Being sub-creators, as Tolkien described. Manifesting the character of God as described in the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control in whatever circumstances we have. We can never do these things perfectly in a fallen world. We are sinners, sinned against, and in a physical universe marred to it's core by sin, but we can still reflect the image of God and strive to do so more fully. 

Katie's quote was about school, career, sports etc. not being one's life. With reference to young people who feel trapped by CV restrictions and losses. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Well, honestly I believe the catechism answer here “To worship and glorify God in all that we do”.

But that’s abstract and the details are sticking points for many people, lots of interpretations on how to live this out.

So I guess my more focused answer is to use my resources, time, energy, words, and thoughts to reflect a biblical and God honoring worldview - not causing offense where He wouldn’t be offended, not creating artificial hills to die on but missing the bigger picture, not losing sight of the fact that we were never promised things to be perfect or comfortable or redeemed here on this earth, now, this side of heaven.

If I live or do things inconsistent with that worldview, I need to adjust my thinking and behaviors, and in some cases I need to repent.  And sometimes that also requires not being silent when the dominant culture wants me to, because some truths of scripture are not convenient in this day and age.

Checking my heart and motives constantly helps.  Prayer and gentleness helps.  Not fearing the opinions of others helps and is in fact my biggest weakness.  But yeah, the point of my life needs to be to glorify my Heavenly Father.  There is a lot of freedom in that, but the deeper goal and trajectory needs to be consistent here.

Ha! We posted at the same time.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Well, honestly I believe the catechism answer here “To worship and glorify God in all that we do”.

...  But yeah, the point of my life needs to be to glorify my Heavenly Father.  

What, in your view, would that mean for a person who did not believe in the existence of God? Would there be no point to their life?

[Jean in Newcastle]

The point of life is to live it the way my Creator wants me to live it. By submitting to His will. By enjoying the rest of His creation. By learning through prosperity and through suffering. By loving people. 

[Bluegoat]

I would say the point of life is to love and be loved. Although I would also say the idea of glorifying God is built in to that.

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What does that mean to you? I know common definitions and am wondering what would happen if a person's way of creative fullfilment is taken away from them

 

I think it's about mending our damaged bits so we can cope with further expansion, and avoid bleeding over those who didn't cut us.

I've had my way of creative fulfilment taken away from me, to the point where I thought those parts of me must have died, but given the right circumstances, they have resurrected. I also have various kinds of ptsd stuff, and they feel different to the aforementioned and to each other. Some of the ptsd stuff can be remediated, given time. Some of it grows back if the progress is not maintained. Some of I'm going to be stuck with because it doesn't feel reparable. I'm very good at waiting. Either the right circumstances or study buddies will come along or they won't. Sometimes one can go out and make their own fate. Sometimes there is nowhere sustainable to go so one must wait. 

[ScoutTN]

25 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What, in your view, would that mean for a person who did not believe in the existence of God? Would there be no point to their life?

I think the ultimate purpose of every human life is to bring glory to God, regardless of whether or not the person believes. The objective reality of this does not depend on the subjective experience of feeling purpose and meaning to one's life. God's purpose for our lives and our understanding of that purpose or willingness to submit to it are two different things.

Regentrude, I think that by teaching physics well, writing poetry, and enjoying the wilderness, you glorify God, even though you do not believe in Him. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Ottakee]

3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

But how does one do though ? I come from a part of the world where there is rampant poverty. We had beggars who used to come home every day, a domestic help who could not read. If I wanted to alleviate suffering I would have to live the life of Mother Teresa to make a difference and not live the kind of life I wanted because of  asking"why am I so privileged".  So I always believe in small acts of charity.  You cannot teach everyone to read, but you can teach that one person in front of you to do so. You can feed the beggar not the leftovers you would throw out, but make extra food everyday so you can share a part of your meal with others in need. You can buy someone a goat or a sewing machine or chickens to give them an opportunity to make. You can pay for someone's education instead of working about how to do so. You cannot save the world, but you can make someone's life a little better is my philosophy. 

I think you answered your own question to how to alleviate suffering....one person at a time, in small ways that make a difference.  You teach one to read....that opens up huge possibilities and they can teach their children/family to read.   You provide a way for someone to earn a living and they in turn provide for others.

Sounds like you have a very good perspective on this already.

[ScoutTN]

lf our typical path of creative fulfillment is taken away, we adapt. The loss is real and we mourn, but our humanity can find other expressions.  It may take time.

[Momto6inIN]

15 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What, in your view, would that mean for a person who did not believe in the existence of God? Would there be no point to their life?

There is purpose and value in every human life because each one of us was created by God in His image. He sent His son to this ugly fallen world out of His great love for each one of us, and He wouldn't have done that if we didn't have tremendous value, whether we acknowledge it and believe in Him or not. All of us were unbelievers at one point or another. So I would say it doesn't mean an unbeliever's life has no point, rather that they are missing its point. 

[Bluegoat]

In Christian theology all of creation exists to glorify God, even inanimate creation.  Belief or unbelief doesn't really come into it, from that perspective (though it does from the other end of the telescope.)

[MercyA]

To love God and our neighbors:

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

To know God and relate rightly to Him through obedience:

"The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you."

To seek truth:

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

To seek justice and show mercy:

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?"

To enjoy the blessings God has given us:

"Put [your] hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment."

"I [King Solomon] perceived that there is nothing better for them than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live."

To seek eternal life:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

[livetoread]

As an unbeliever, I think it is up to us to find meaning in our lives. I don’t think there is an outside “purpose”, but that doesn’t mean our lives are meaningless. I find contentment and peace in being loved and loving others, and I also find it in being aware of moments of beauty. I find deep meaning in knowing I am connected to other people and other things in this world - that I am a part of life.

 I am not a type A sort, so I’m not driven to achieve a lot. I am content to be remembered as someone who was kind and who left the world a better place. That’s my purpose, along with enjoying and experiencing things that bring me and those I love pleasure. Just looking out for myself makes no sense to me, even just from a practical view, because it doesn’t bring happiness. Being useful and loving and being loved brings happiness. Why wouldn’t I want to do the things that make for a full and beautiful life?

I should add that I have never experienced depression. I am closely tied to someone who is right now, though, and it is a whole ‘nother ball of wax. Easy for me to talk about contentment and peace with the little things when I’ve never really struggled with depression. Editing to add, though, that even this loved one who is struggling finds moments of beauty helpful in fighting back despair. Finding a way to be useful to others while still taking care of herself also helps.

Edited April 24, 2020 by livetoread

[livetoread]

3 minutes ago, mms said:

This is interesting to me because in my mind, finding meaning for one’s existence is by its nature transcendental and intimately tied with a purpose.  And I don’t just say this as a believer (I exist to know, love and serve God in this world and to be happy with Him in the next), Victor Frankl came to the same conclusion about the transcendental nature of finding meaning in life in Auschwitz when as a non-believing psychiatrist he observed what gave himself and his fellow prisoners a will to live. OP: his book, Man’s Search for Meaning, is non-religious and well worth reading. My edition has reflective essays by leaders of various faith traditions in the epilogue.

I have read it, though it’s been awhile. I agree with anyone who says it is important to have meaning and purpose in your life. I disagree, though, that it has to come from a deity. I understand those who think a deity gives it whether you believe or not. I just disagree that one must have a faith in a deity to have meaning and purpose (and I can’t remember if he argues that or not-I think not).

[J-rap]

I like the way our pastor articulated it recently:   It's loving and enjoying God who is loving and enjoying us.  Well, and that would then extend to others too.  It's all about relationships, loving and being loved.  A self-sacrificial-type of love. (unselfish love)

Edited April 24, 2020 by J-rap

[Murphy101]

What Mercy said and also... means of doing that in various ways as stated in the works of mercy and the beatitudes.

We are called to be Good Samaritans.

We are called to love and mercy and justice and hope.

We are called to sacrifice. Even unto death.

I do not think you have to be Catholic to know or feel those things are true, though when I meet someone who does, they’ve always become Catholic eventually.

ETA: I don’t mean to offend. That was just my experience and I’ve seen my experience repeated in the few people I’ve know who knew/felt that way.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Murphy101

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Yeah, I couldn't write for years after I first gave birth. Struck dumb. 

I embroidered instead. 

 

I haven’t written more than a few words since I had kids.  

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

It's so weird, isn't it?

I felt like I'd had my tongue cut out.

It went on for a looong time.

I was unable to write for ten years. After emigrating, I stopped writing in my native language and could.not.write in English, despite being fluent. It took until my oldest was nearing college age. Tongue cut out sounds exactly right.

Edited April 24, 2020 by regentrude

[Ausmumof3]

My viewpoint is religiously informed so not likely to be useful to you I don’t think.  To love and enjoy and worship God and to be like him.  However part of being like a creator is being creative and that might be useful perhaps?

i guess is you don’t believe in a creator it’s hard to see why you would believe there is any one particular point to life.  It’s a bunch of random matter that’s playing out in a kaleidoscope of patterns according to a set of physical laws.  There’s no one point.  You have to find your own point and that will look different for everyone.  For some people it’s going to be loving and helping others, reducing suffering, for others creating or self knowledge and awareness or understanding the forces that make up the universe.

on a personal note i hope you are doing ok and this is a philosophical question only at this point.  Asking too many questions like this seems to link to depression a bit for me.

[Ausmumof3]

also i really hope my post isn’t offensive at all... trying to word things the right way.  Not an attack on those who don’t share my faith just trying to acknowledge that the answers I personally find may not work for you.

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I was unable to write for ten years. After emigrating, I stopped writing in my native language and could.not.write in English, despite being fluent. It took until my oldest was nearing college age. Tongue cut out sounds exactly right.

I can imagine learning to live in a separate language would make language based creativity much harder to access.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Well, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand?

I mean that’s the problem, isn’t it?  If you don’t believe in something beyond this life and the here and now what *does* stop you from trying to get yours, from focusing on the things you do, knowing that your inner person and who you are is only accountable to yourself, possibly the government, and your fellow man if you decide that matters? 

This is where I think things get out of scale - worshipping the creation, or the family, or success or kindness or affirmations or knowledge. Etc. And I do believe firmly those things are ultimately empty or shallow substitutes for true, abiding, saving peace.

But this is where myself and a non-believer can agree to disagree in a respectful way, but it is an unbridgeable gap. Those two sides can hear one another out and talk philosophically but there is no meeting in the middle, the views are fundamentally opposed.

I would say most nonbelievers are not focused on trying to get theirs and only focusing on the things they do anymore than most believers are because that is not the path to a good, happy, peaceful life filled with purpose, love, and service to others. It pretty much all comes back to the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Who would want to live in a world full of selfish, self-focused people who only care about themselves? I understand the peace believing brings believers because I see it in my parents. But I don’t think being believers has much if anything to do with how they live their lives. They are fundamentally good people who always strive to do what is right, just like most people I know, believers or not.

[MercyA]

10 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I do not think you have to be Catholic to know or feel those things are true, though when I meet someone who does, they’ve always become Catholic eventually.

Many of my Catholic friends have seemed to think at various points that I was right on the verge of converting. I have not 😉although there are of course things I admire and things that appeal to me in the Catholic Church. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by MercyA

[Lady Florida.]

I'm not one who goes in for philosophy much but I'm with Victor Frankl, who in Man's Search for Meaning says we all must create our own meaning (or point) of life. What it means to me might look different from what it means for you.

Personally I find meaning in connecting with others and with nature/the earth, in loving and being loved, and in finding things that bring me joy.

 

 

[kiwik]

3 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

But how does one do though ? I come from a part of the world where there is rampant poverty. We had beggars who used to come home every day, a domestic help who could not read. If I wanted to alleviate suffering I would have to live the life of Mother Teresa to make a difference and not live the kind of life I wanted because of  asking"why am I so privileged".  So I always believe in small acts of charity.  You cannot teach everyone to read, but you can teach that one person in front of you to do so. You can feed the beggar not the leftovers you would throw out, but make extra food everyday so you can share a part of your meal with others in need. You can buy someone a goat or a sewing machine or chickens to give them an opportunity to make. You can pay for someone's education instead of working about how to do so. You cannot save the world, but you can make someone's life a little better is my philosophy. 

You don't have to alleviate all suffering.  No one can do that.  It is like the starfish story - you can't save them all but you make a difference to every starfish you throw back in the sea.

[Tap]

What is life (extrapolating....What is a human life).  The reproduction and divsion of cells that results in a human. 

The point of life....is to survive long enough to reproduce. 

If you live beyond replacing yourself, then helping your offspring survive long enough to reproduce. 

I consider it a bonus if you can help make your offspring healthier than previous generations.

 

I do not believe everyone should have a child, but I do think it is the point of life. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Tap

[SKL]

Life includes birth, and suffering, and joy, and loving, and death.

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, mms said:

No, he very much does not argue for a deity. But, what you described as giving you meaning is transcendental and purpose driven in that it transcends your needs and looks to others. I guess what you meant by “outside” is that it is not imposed on you?

and to be clear, I was not in anyway critical of your position. I just found your distinction between meaning and purpose as an interesting one 🙂

Ah, yes, that makes sense. To me, what I mean by “outside” is more some sentient force or deity apart from humans establishing purpose and meaning for us. But yes, it is outside us in that we get meaning from looking beyond our own selfishness to our connections with each other and the natural world. We can find meaning in making the world better for our fellow creatures and for those who come after us, even in small ways. 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Life is all about relationship.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit live together to love and support each other- one heart, one purpose.  

The chief purpose in our life is to glorify them; anything short of this is a form of religion.

Religion is completely different from relationship.  Religion is man seeking fulfillment to life in his own way. For one, religion may be service to mankind or finding oneness with the beauty of the earth.  There are an infinite number of options to choose from.  Any of these may make one feel good about himself, but none of them equal intimate friendship with God.

Relationship is the key, yet having relationship with God is totally dependent on the fact of His transcendence.  His is above all-period.  This isn't meant as a point of argument or to be taken as an offense.  This is actually the beginning of the Gospel.  In all of His sovereignty, God created the heavens and the earth.  He created man and breathed life into him.  Adam and Eve walked in the Garden with Him.  They had relationship with Him there.  They were totally fulfilled in Him. There was mutual satisfaction.  They glorified Him, and He edified them. 

To see the entire picture, you have to note the presence of God's enemy- the believer's enemy too.  He will stop at nothing to draw us away from God.  He is completely evil. The devil gave Eve just enough doubt for her to question God.  All it took was a moment of distraction.  She and Adam had walked in the Garden with God, but all the devil had to do was to plant a tiny seed of "What if..."  At that moment, instead of being in surrendered obedience with the Godhead, they walked independently of Him and found themselves all alone.  The devil thought he had won.  This separation from God was a consequence of sin. At this point, relationship stopped. In fact, death became real. This would have been a terrible ending, but remember God is all about relationship.  

This is the great part!   God is holy, so nothing short holiness can stand in His presence.  When sin entered the world and mankind was separated from God, we could no longer walk in relationship with Him or bring Him glory.  Before the foundation of the world, however, God knew what would happen, and from the beginning there was a plan of redemption to restore relationship!  This is the Good News, and it is tremendous.

There is a penalty for sin.  It is death. The only way around this was for that debt to be paid.  Mankind was unable to pay the debt.  Our sin and consequential separation made us completely dependent on another way.  There was only one way we could be saved. Jesus, God's Son and the second member of the Trinity became obedient to God's redemption plan and died for us.  This was HUGE!  You can read in the Old Testament about the slaying of a lamb and putting its blood on the doorposts so that the death angel would "passover" that house. This was a model of what Jesus did in the New Testament. Jesus is that perfect lamb. This is why His sacrifice was the only one that could do the job. He had no sin, and He willingly died in our place.  (II Cor. 5:21) His sacrifice atoned for our sin. Because of his sacrifice, relationship with the Trinity was restored.  God raised Jesus from the grave.  In this is our hope.  In this is our LIFE!  🙂  The devil, the enemy, was totally defeated.  Amazing!

The entire Bible is written with the message from God, "I love you!  I want to have intimate relationship with you. I want you (insert your name here__________) to walk in unity with Me.  You will find your satisfaction and fulfillment when you worship Me with your whole heart, and I will bless you with eternal life with Me.  Repent from your sin, and turn to Me. I created you to worship.  You won't find fulfillment in empty religion.  You will only find fulfillment in Me. Life is in Me."  The meaning of life is found right here: John 3:16 God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

We have such a good God.  It is His kindness that leads us to repentance. 

John Piper said it so well:  “The wisdom of God devised a way for the love of God to deliver sinners from the wrath of God while not compromising the righteousness of God.”

It is my prayer that if anyone can make it through this long discourse that he can discern the picture of God's love over and above any arguable points of theology. It is in intimate friendship and relationship with God through Jesus that we find life and purpose.  He graciously sent His Holy Spirit to us to draw us to the Lord.  The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin.  (Conviction leads to repentance; conviction is not condemnation.  Condemnation is from the enemy.) As we recognize sin and repent, God is faithful to forgive and to clean us from unrighteousness.  He restored relationship.  What grace and mercy He shows us.  

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Sweet Home Alabama

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, StellaM said:

The point of life is to learn about the nature of suffering, and to try in your own imperfect ways to alleviate suffering in yourself and others.

The point of life is also to engage in wonder at the excellent random beauty of the world, hence, poetry.

IMO.

 

This. I think becoming self aware (which is a truly lifelong project) and helping others become more self aware is perhaps at least one point of life. Studying secular Buddhism (very casually, and over several years) has helped me tremendously. Also, what @Rosie_0801 said. I see self actualization as part of self awareness.

 

7 hours ago, livetoread said:

I find contentment and peace in being loved and loving others, and I also find it in being aware of moments of beauty. I find deep meaning in knowing I am connected to other people and other things in this world - that I am a part of life.

 

Not too long ago I read something about a person that said "She led a life of quiet kindness." I think that's what I aspire to. In and of itself it seems like enough for me. And self awareness, of course (see above). But I'm not sure you can do quiet kindness well without also striving for self awareness. Except for the lucky souls who are born incredibly self aware, I guess.

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, regentrude said:

I thought of replying the the States opening thread, but perhaps this is better in its own spin-off.

IN the other thread, @Ktgrok wrote 

Serious philosophical question: So what is "life itself"? And what is the point of life? 

Likely as no one has ever come to a definite conclusion and philosophy is devoted to the search, it’s unlikely we will reach consensus here. 
Beased on my Judeo Christian beliefs life itself resides within the soul and not the body. Because of this, no concrete purpose is sufficient purpose. God is a spirit and man’s primary purpose is to glorify and enjoy Him.

[Junie]

11 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Well, honestly I believe the catechism answer here “To worship and glorify God in all that we do”.

But that’s abstract and the details are sticking points for many people, lots of interpretations on how to live this out.

So I guess my more focused answer is to use my resources, time, energy, words, and thoughts to reflect a biblical and God honoring worldview - not causing offense where He wouldn’t be offended, not creating artificial hills to die on but missing the bigger picture, not losing sight of the fact that we were never promised things to be perfect or comfortable or redeemed here on this earth, now, this side of heaven.

If I live or do things inconsistent with that worldview, I need to adjust my thinking and behaviors, and in some cases I need to repent.  And sometimes that also requires not being silent when the dominant culture wants me to, because some truths of scripture are not convenient in this day and age.

Checking my heart and motives constantly helps.  Prayer and gentleness helps.  Not fearing the opinions of others helps and is in fact my biggest weakness.  But yeah, the point of my life needs to be to glorify my Heavenly Father.  There is a lot of freedom in that, but the deeper goal and trajectory needs to be consistent here.

 

11 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

There is purpose and value in every human life because each one of us was created by God in His image. He sent His son to this ugly fallen world out of His great love for each one of us, and He wouldn't have done that if we didn't have tremendous value, whether we acknowledge it and believe in Him or not. All of us were unbelievers at one point or another. So I would say it doesn't mean an unbeliever's life has no point, rather that they are missing its point. 

These answers very much align with my point of view on the meaning of life. 

Also, humans are God's special creation and he takes joy in us, just as we take joy in our children.  He loves us, even when we do things that go against who He desires us to be.  Even when we hurt Him.  Just as we do with our children.  Christians call God "Father" because that it the kind of relationship we have with Him.

[Murphy101]

9 hours ago, MercyA said:

Many of my Catholic friends have seemed to think at various points that I was right on the verge of converting. I have not 😉although there are of course things I admire and things that appeal to me in the Catholic Church. 

It took my dh over 20 years. 🙂

[wendyroo]

8 hours ago, Tap said:

What is life (extrapolating....What is a human life).  The reproduction and divsion of cells that results in a human. 

The point of life....is to survive long enough to reproduce. 

If you live beyond replacing yourself, then helping your offspring survive long enough to reproduce. 

I consider it a bonus if you can help make your offspring healthier than previous generations.

 

I do not believe everyone should have a child, but I do think it is the point of life. 

This, though I view it more broadly.

I see the purpose of life as setting the species up to thrive in the future. 

Obviously, how different people go about this will be wildly different:
 - Some of us have kids so there will be future generations, others will choose not to have kids because they feel they can benefit the species more in other ways
 - Some of us will prioritize having a strong economy in the future, others will think having a clean environment is a higher priority
 - Some will instill religion in their children, others won't

I actually don't think the particulars matter nearly as much as the motivation.  I respect people who make choices that strengthen and support their own growth, their children growing into healthy, responsible adults, their communities being flexible and flourishing, and the world developing in sustainable ways that can nourish (and be nourished) by humanity for a long time to come.

 

[MercyA]

46 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

It took my dh over 20 years. 🙂

🙂 

The sticking point for me is some of the prayers. Often I was the lone non-Catholic at protests and vigils and learned a few of my friends' favorite prayers by heart. But that is a topic for another day. 😉 

[Bootsie]

To me,  a large part of "life itself" is the wrestling with these broad philosophical questions.  It is acknowledging the conundrums, the tensions, and the paradoxes.  It is exploring answers to questions that are as old as time.  It is experiencing how our answers to those questions have changed or developed over our lives.  It is embracing the experiences and the people in our lives that have shed new light and given us new perspectives on these questions.  It is a tension between seeking answers to these questions and being comfortable with mystery and not knowing.   

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bootsie

[ScoutTN]

16 hours ago, livetoread said:

I have read it, though it’s been awhile. I agree with anyone who says it is important to have meaning and purpose in your life. I disagree, though, that it has to come from a deity. I understand those who think a deity gives it whether you believe or not. I just disagree that one must have a faith in a deity to have meaning and purpose (and I can’t remember if he argues that or not-I think not).

I think that God's purpose for our lives, the meaning He intends, happens whether we believe it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we are aware of it or not. Because He is sovereign and we are not. But, again, that is a different thing from our subjective experience of having, or stuggling to find, meaning and purpose.  

I do think that all human beings NEED purpose and meaning and seek it. That is a good thing. This thread reflects that the image of God in humanity often comes out in what we choose, even for people who do not believe the Christian gospel. Notice the number of posters whose posts echoed biblical themes of justice, mercy, loving one's neighbor, stewarding and enjoying nature, enjoying, creating and protecting beauty, etc.

Romans 1 says that all people worship. Everyone makes some thing(s) ultimate in their lives. Man creates meaning for himself if he will not receive the meaning offered in Christ. Christians struggle deeply with idolatry, letting other good things usurp the place that only God has a right to. This is why the first commandment is first.

Culture, location, history, personal experience, personality and abilities all play into what influences a person to choose one not-God thing over another. Can people be happy in this life with self-created purpose and meaning? Yes, surely. And yet there is a real eternal loss and perhaps, deep down or unrecognized, dissatisfaction with less than ultimate answers. 

Why do some choose one path and others another? God's ways are beyond our searching out and there are mysteries we will never understand, even in eternity, because our minds are finite. But thinking about the meaning and purpose of human life is surely a good thing for a person and a society to do. We need more than just to survive, we need to see the big picture. That need is part of what it means to be human and not just an animal. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

11 hours ago, Frances said:

I would say most nonbelievers are not focused on trying to get theirs and only focusing on the things they do anymore than most believers are because that is not the path to a good, happy, peaceful life filled with purpose, love, and service to others. It pretty much all comes back to the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Who would want to live in a world full of selfish, self-focused people who only care about themselves? I understand the peace believing brings believers because I see it in my parents. But I don’t think being believers has much if anything to do with how they live their lives. They are fundamentally good people who always strive to do what is right, just like most people I know, believers or not.

Wow, that is huge disconnect! If one's faith doesn't make any difference, why believe it? If it creates a helpful emotional state, but doesn't change one's character or priorities or behavior, is it actually real or a delusion?

I think "fundamentally good people" is inaccurate,  if intended in a Christian context. The Bible teaches that people are created in the image of God and reflect his character and nature in many ways. That is the good we see in one another. It is real, obvious, and lovely. But the Bible also teaches that all people are sinners. Our hearts and minds are predisposed to rebel against God, disobey his law, and live as we choose, not as He chooses. All of our humanity, body and soul, mind, will and emotions, is tainted by sin. No one "always strives to do what is right". Hence our separation from God and inability to live in relationship with Him apart from Christ. If we are all  "fundamentally good people", no one needs Jesus. The Christian gospel calsl us to examine our hearts and as well as our deeds to see if we are holy. Not basically good, but holy. If we are not, then Christ is the only answer. 

 

 

 

[J-rap]

I've already answered the main question, but this is an expansion on it.  🙂 When I wonder about the point of life, for me it always comes down to what could be shared across all humanity.  So in order to hold up as "the point of life" -- it needs to be life-long (not changing from one thing to another), and it has to hold true for everyone across all spectrums and all time, and under all hardships of life.  That means even for people living in extreme poverty, in jail, on the street, living as a quadriplegic, and in the process of dying, and for people who have lost their sight or their speech or their ability to touch.   It also means people of any faith, or of no faith at all.  

So pretty much, what gives life meaning even when nearly everything else has been taken from you?  

All I can think of is unselfish love.  Because even if in prison or in the process of dying, we can be part of that equation, either the giver or the receiver or both.  As a person of faith, I believe that that kind of unselfish love has its roots in God himself, so to me it's all an extension of him and his character, and I think understanding that is ideal and can also lead to a higher level of intrinsic peace and joy.   But, I definitely believe you can experience that same point of life without believing or knowing its source, just as I believe you can miss the whole point of unselfish love altogether even if you call yourself a Christian.  

[Laura Corin]

23 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Wow, that is huge disconnect! If one's faith doesn't make any difference, why believe it? If it creates a helpful emotional state, but doesn't change one's character or priorities or behavior, is it actually real or a delusion?

I think "fundamentally good people" is inaccurate,  if intended in a Christian context. The Bible teaches that people are created in the image of God and reflect his character and nature in many ways. That is the good we see in one another. It is real, obvious, and lovely. But the Bible also teaches that all people are sinners. Our hearts and minds are predisposed to rebel against God, disobey his law, and live as we choose, not as He chooses. All of our humanity, body and soul, mind, will and emotions, is tainted by sin. No one "always strives to do what is right". Hence our separation from God and inability to live in relationship with Him apart from Christ. If we are all  "fundamentally good people", no one needs Jesus. The Christian gospel calsl us to examine our hearts and as well as our deeds to see if we are holy. Not basically good, but holy. If we are not, then Christ is the only answer.

I do think that most people are trying to do the right thing because they want to feel happy about their own behaviour.  Their definitions will vary based on upbringing and capacity.  But to support their own self-respect, I think most people are making the attempt, whether they are religious or areligious. 

As a non-believer, I try to follow the Golden Rule.  I don't know that I would say that it is 'the point of [my] life', more a guidebook.  I'm not sure that my life has a point, nor does it need one.  It just is.  It's more like, 'Given that I am alive, this is how I think I should behave to myself and to others.'

Edited April 24, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Lady Florida.]

29 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

 

As a non-believer, I try to follow the Golden Rule.  I don't know that I would say that it is 'the point of [my] life', more a guidebook.  I'm not sure that my life has a point, nor does it need one.  It just is.  It's more like, 'Given that I am alive, this is how I think I should behave to myself and to others.'

Yes to all of this. As I said in my post I don't really care about philosophy. And I don't spend any time wondering about my purpose on this earth. I'm here. I exist. I try to do the right thing, which for me is defined as the Golden Rule.

[J-rap]

17 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Yes to all of this. As I said in my post I don't really care about philosophy. And I don't spend any time wondering about my purpose on this earth. I'm here. I exist. I try to do the right thing, which for me is defined as the Golden Rule.

I think for most of us, the "Golden Rule" is the best we can do, and is enough.

[Momto6inIN]

13 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

What Mercy said and also... means of doing that in various ways as stated in the works of mercy and the beatitudes.

We are called to be Good Samaritans.

We are called to love and mercy and justice and hope.

We are called to sacrifice. Even unto death.

I do not think you have to be Catholic to know or feel those things are true, though when I meet someone who does, they’ve always become Catholic eventually.

ETA: I don’t mean to offend. That was just my experience and I’ve seen my experience repeated in the few people I’ve know who knew/felt that way.

 

12 hours ago, MercyA said:

Many of my Catholic friends have seemed to think at various points that I was right on the verge of converting. I have not 😉although there are of course things I admire and things that appeal to me in the Catholic Church. 

Actually I believe all those things to be true, was brought up Protestant, converted to become Catholic in college, and as an adult felt called to convert to an Anabaptist church which I have now been serving in for 16 years 🙂 I still have a soft soft in my heart for the Catholic church and love and admire many things about it.

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

. Notice the number of posters whose posts echoed biblical themes of justice, mercy, loving one's neighbor, stewarding and enjoying nature, enjoying, creating and protecting beauty, etc.

Just wanted to say that those are biblical themes, yes, but they can also be found in other belief systems. Not to mention, as well, that there are other biblical themes that do not follow those. Deciding which themes to emphasize in various belief systems, and which to downplay is important work as well.
 

[Lady Florida.]

3 minutes ago, livetoread said:

Just wanted to say that those are biblical themes, yes, but they can also be found in other belief systems. Not to mention, as well, that there are other biblical themes that do not follow those. Deciding which themes to emphasize in various belief systems, and which to downplay is important work as well.
 

Yes. Some variation of the Golden Rule can be found in the time of Confucius, ancient India, ancient Egypt, and ancient Greece, just to name a few. It's not specific to Christianity or the other Abrahamic religions. 

[MercyA]

32 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

Actually I believe all those things to be true, was brought up Protestant, converted to become Catholic in college, and as an adult felt called to convert to an Anabaptist church which I have now been serving in for 16 years 🙂 I still have a soft soft in my heart for the Catholic church and love and admire many things about it.

Yes! I feel the same toward the Catholic Church, but find my beliefs align most closely with Anabaptism. 

[MercyA]

I love that we can have this thoughtful, pleasant discussion. You all are so smart and kind. ❤️

Thanks, @regentrude.