Spelling-- What would you do? (probably dyslexia)

[ByGrace3]

My dd10 is at the end of AAS 3. We have attempted AAS 3, 3 years in a row. We always got to a point of utter frustration, so I put it away and either just worked on phonograms, or last year we did Memoria Press spelling grade 1 (in 3rd grade). We got farther than ever this year, but she is really struggling. She spells everything very phonetically and no amount of teaching the rules or practicing the words will help her spell "were" with an e at the end.  I do feel like she has made improvements this year but still spells "make" without the silent e. If I ask her to go back and read it, she will read it phonetically and fix those kinds of things. I can walk her through the rules for C or K or CK and she "knows" the rule and can fix them with prompting . . .  it has become an issue. Her reading is ok. Not where I wish it were but she reads ok . . . just makes mistakes and I have to ask her to go back. She completed AAR 1-4. 

I suspect dyslexia . . . we did a lexercise screening online and she failed. She even failed part C of the Barton screening (she got 3 wrong where 2 was the max you could miss)

I have hesitated getting a formal diagnosis, hoping we could help her at home . . . the question I have is do I give in, get her diagnosed so I can get access to funding to get the tutoring helps she needs? (we cannot afford it on our own). Also, I only started suspecting dyslexia about 2 years ago . . . she is a great "fake it til you make it" kid and is super confident . . .so it wasn't obvious until it was. 

Or is there something else I should try before going the professional route?

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

Ok, so I'm better with reading than spelling issues - so this is aimed more at that. To help with that I always reccomend the book Equipped for Reading Success by David Kilpatrick and working through Abecedarian. Because she is reading, start with B1. That one will cover all those long and short vowels, vowel digraphs, etc etc. It does it in a totally different way than rule based programs. So if the rule ones don't work, try this instead - just since it is different. She could probably work through a full lesson a day instead of a lesson a week. Or at least several pages a day. It's very efficient, no busy work. Not babyish. DO use the free resources section of the website to supplement - the I SPY pages and fluency pages are not optional for true success. 

As for spelling, you could try a few things. One, just for common words, is these flashcards. They are amazing! They take the "tricky" letters in the word and make them into pictures, and give a sentence to go with it. We work through 4-5 at a time, until she knows them, and then move on. (you can get just one set at a time if you don't want to invest in all three at once). 

You can also try something that uses word sorts, like Words Their Way - I think they have a spelling program called Spelling Success? I may have the name wrong. we used it some, but there were never enough lines for all the words and that frustrated her, lol. But we still use that concept. 

We also use Touch, Type, Read and Spell to sneak in extra spelling. 

[ByGrace3]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, so I'm better with reading than spelling issues - so this is aimed more at that. To help with that I always reccomend the book Equipped for Reading Success by David Kilpatrick and working through Abecedarian. Because she is reading, start with B1. That one will cover all those long and short vowels, vowel digraphs, etc etc. It does it in a totally different way than rule based programs. So if the rule ones don't work, try this instead - just since it is different. She could probably work through a full lesson a day instead of a lesson a week. Or at least several pages a day. It's very efficient, no busy work. Not babyish. DO use the free resources section of the website to supplement - the I SPY pages and fluency pages are not optional for true success. 

As for spelling, you could try a few things. One, just for common words, is these flashcards. They are amazing! They take the "tricky" letters in the word and make them into pictures, and give a sentence to go with it. We work through 4-5 at a time, until she knows them, and then move on. (you can get just one set at a time if you don't want to invest in all three at once). 

You can also try something that uses word sorts, like Words Their Way - I think they have a spelling program called Spelling Success? I may have the name wrong. we used it some, but there were never enough lines for all the words and that frustrated her, lol. But we still use that concept. 

We also use Touch, Type, Read and Spell to sneak in extra spelling. 

 

Thank you for the suggestions! I will start looking at them today! What is the name of the flashcards? I find I do that a lot with her already to help her remember-- drawing pics on the words...

37 minutes ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Sequential Spelling will be your friend. It is designed specifically for children like yours - dyslexic children who just can't remember the rules. I switched to it and love it. My friend, who has a dyslexic husband and son, and who also tutors dyslexic children, also swears by it.

 

I have been leaning in this direction for next year. Do you suggest the online or book version? 

[ByGrace3]

Also, would you say sequential spelling is better than Apples and Pears (which looks an awful lot like AAS in my opinion). I see both mentioned often for dyslexia so curious-- but i'm wondering if AAS isn't working then A&P probably won't either?

[Hadley]

May I just play devil’s advocate here?  I was in your shoes years ago.  I have a seventeen-year-old boy who is quite possibly a stealth dyslexic.  He was reading at three, but by age ten I was convinced that he was just messing with me, surely his spelling couldn’t really be that bad!

I spent thousands of dollars and millions of tears on spelling.  I own every curriculum available in the USA.  We have spent HOURS on spelling in my house, and only now, he is a semi-functional speller.

Know what?  It hasn’t hurt him at all.  He uses the spell-check as needed, and knows to have someone glance over his spelling before he sends important e-mails.  He is an excellent writer who excels in math.  He came dang near the ceiling on the SAT.

I just want to remind you to keep spelling in its place.  I gave it way too much worry and anxiety.  Choose a program and just keep plugging along.  My son’s spelling finally became functional when he was a sophomore in high school.  Honestly.  It’s okay.

Funny aside:  I was just looking at an AP Calculus final that was on his desk.  He made a 99, yet he had written a note to his teacher in which he had spelled ‘proper’, ‘propper’.  I also have a cousin getting his PhD in Physics who left me a note with ‘baby’ spelled ‘babby’.  Both my son and this boy can recite spelling rules all day long, but don’t apply them.  I have come to the conclusion that different minds have different skills and strengths.

I’d encourage you to keep working, daily, at spelling.  I do, however, hope you don’t lose as much sleep over the issue as I did.  Ten is still very young.  Give it diligence and time.  Lots of time...

[ByGrace3]

1 hour ago, Hadley said:

May I just play devil’s advocate here?  I was in your shoes years ago.  I have a seventeen-year-old boy who is quite possibly a stealth dyslexic.  He was reading at three, but by age ten I was convinced that he was just messing with me, surely his spelling couldn’t really be that bad!

I spent thousands of dollars and millions of tears on spelling.  I own every curriculum available in the USA.  We have spent HOURS on spelling in my house, and only now, he is a semi-functional speller.

Know what?  It hasn’t hurt him at all.  He uses the spell-check as needed, and knows to have someone glance over his spelling before he sends important e-mails.  He is an excellent writer who excels in math.  He came dang near the ceiling on the SAT.

I just want to remind you to keep spelling in its place.  I gave it way too much worry and anxiety.  Choose a program and just keep plugging along.  My son’s spelling finally became functional when he was a sophomore in high school.  Honestly.  It’s okay.

Funny aside:  I was just looking at an AP Calculus final that was on his desk.  He made a 99, yet he had written a note to his teacher in which he had spelled ‘proper’, ‘propper’.  I also have a cousin getting his PhD in Physics who left me a note with ‘baby’ spelled ‘babby’.  Both my son and this boy can recite spelling rules all day long, but don’t apply them.  I have come to the conclusion that different minds have different skills and strengths.

I’d encourage you to keep working, daily, at spelling.  I do, however, hope you don’t lose as much sleep over the issue as I did.  Ten is still very young.  Give it diligence and time.  Lots of time...

This is wise advice. Thank you. I admit I have been too frustrated in the past over this issue. I am trying to switch gears . . . we had a chat with dd about brains working differently and that is ok. . . we are just searching for the best way to help her. I know I need to step back with expectations and step up with compassion. Also, a little twist in the story-- we recently took in 2 kids, one of which is the same age as dd. She is an excellent speller and reader and has amazing handwriting-- only now did dd realize how far behind she is. It was tough, but I have tried to highlight each girls strengths -- which are many-- and help them to see everyone has strengths and weaknesses, no need to compare, just diligently work on yourself. I have seen improvement. . . hoping a spelling switch will help. I also admit I am a bit of a spelling and grammar nerd so this is hard for me 😉 

[alisoncooks]

Following. Both of my girls struggle with spelling (also both were very late readers).

Apples & Pears has moderately helped...maybe. Youngest doesn't seem to hold on to it. I was thinking of just moving on to high frequency words -- at least getting those down. (Youngest still struggles to remember even simple words, like "your.")

[mellifera33]

2 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

Thank you for the suggestions! I will start looking at them today! What is the name of the flashcards? I find I do that a lot with her already to help her remember-- drawing pics on the words...

Not Katie, but her description sounds a lot like some flashcards we have used from a company called I See, I Spell, I Learn.

2 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

Also, would you say sequential spelling is better than Apples and Pears (which looks an awful lot like AAS in my opinion). I see both mentioned often for dyslexia so curious-- but i'm wondering if AAS isn't working then A&P probably won't either?

I have never used AAS, but my dyslexic ds has found some success with Apples and Pears. It doesn't require a lot of memorizing rules, but has lots and lots of practice with word patterns. If you go to the Foundations in Sound website, the entire book is available to view, so there's no buying it and it being entirely different than what you expected. lol

Edited April 23, 2020 by mellifera33

[Hadley]

41 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

I also admit I am a bit of a spelling and grammar nerd so this is hard for me 😉 

I hear you.  The Lord has used this to shape me.  I am a former high school English teacher.  I made so many assumptions about kids who had poor spelling that I now know were so very wrong.

My husband is working from home.  I was just chuckling to myself about his spelling on the notes on his paper.  He is a graduate of West Point.  Abysmal spelling.  He is, however, much smarter than I.  I guess the apple didn’t fall far from the tree around here!

Hang in there!  You sound like you are doing an excellent job with all of your children.  They are blessed.

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, mshanson3121 said:

 

Sequential Spelling will be your friend. It is designed specifically for children like yours - dyslexic children who just can't remember the rules. I switched to it and love it. My friend, who has a dyslexic husband and son, and who also tutors dyslexic children, also swears by it.

For what it is worth, my dyslexic daughter HATED Sequential Spelling. She is very very compliant with school work and has NEVER just broken down in tears refusing and begging not to do something. She did with this. 

Sequential spelling doesn't teach the words first, you just kind of guess, and whatever ones you got wrong you fix. Which meant she was constantly getting stuff wrong, and that just KILLED her confidence. It was so so upsetting for her. It felt unfair, in her mind, to ask her to spell things they hadn't taught yet. We ditched it and will never go back. 

4 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

Thank you for the suggestions! I will start looking at them today! What is the name of the flashcards? I find I do that a lot with her already to help her remember-- drawing pics on the words...

 

Oops, I meant to include the link! https://amzn.to/2Y12qUK

4 hours ago, Hadley said:

May I just play devil’s advocate here?  I was in your shoes years ago.  I have a seventeen-year-old boy who is quite possibly a stealth dyslexic.  He was reading at three, but by age ten I was convinced that he was just messing with me, surely his spelling couldn’t really be that bad!

I spent thousands of dollars and millions of tears on spelling.  I own every curriculum available in the USA.  We have spent HOURS on spelling in my house, and only now, he is a semi-functional speller.

Know what?  It hasn’t hurt him at all.  He uses the spell-check as needed, and knows to have someone glance over his spelling before he sends important e-mails.  He is an excellent writer who excels in math.  He came dang near the ceiling on the SAT.

 

I’d encourage you to keep working, daily, at spelling.  I do, however, hope you don’t lose as much sleep over the issue as I did.  Ten is still very young.  Give it diligence and time.  Lots of time...

All this. At some point, you keep plugging along, but you shift the focus from "fixing it" to accomodating it. To finding success in a different way. If your child doesn't yet type, please put a lot of time and effort into having them learn. Make it a priority. Once they can type they can use spell check, autocorrect, etc. No, those tools are not perfect. But they will pick up on a heck of a lot! Grammarly, etc also become options. We are paying for Touch, Type, Read and Spell (not cheap) because it also reviews phonics and spelling, but there are free programs as well. (she does like this one, so I keep paying)

1 hour ago, Hadley said:

I hear you.  The Lord has used this to shape me.  I am a former high school English teacher.  I made so many assumptions about kids who had poor spelling that I now know were so very wrong.

My husband is working from home.  I was just chuckling to myself about his spelling on the notes on his paper.  He is a graduate of West Point.  Abysmal spelling.  He is, however, much smarter than I.  I guess the apple didn’t fall far from the tree around here!

Hang in there!  You sound like you are doing an excellent job with all of your children.  They are blessed.

Yes, about the Lord using this to shape us! I'm an author, my best friends are books! My number one retreat is reading. To have a child with dyslexia was a huge blow in a lot of ways. But it made me grow, and made me value other things in my child, and despite her learning issues she is just SO smart and has an amazing work ethic. All things that serve her well. 

[ByGrace3]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

For what it is worth, my dyslexic daughter HATED Sequential Spelling. She is very very compliant with school work and has NEVER just broken down in tears refusing and begging not to do something. She did with this. 

Sequential spelling doesn't teach the words first, you just kind of guess, and whatever ones you got wrong you fix. Which meant she was constantly getting stuff wrong, and that just KILLED her confidence. It was so so upsetting for her. It felt unfair, in her mind, to ask her to spell things they hadn't taught yet. We ditched it and will never go back. 

Oops, I meant to include the link! https://amzn.to/2Y12qUK

All this. At some point, you keep plugging along, but you shift the focus from "fixing it" to accomodating it. To finding success in a different way. If your child doesn't yet type, please put a lot of time and effort into having them learn. Make it a priority. Once they can type they can use spell check, autocorrect, etc. No, those tools are not perfect. But they will pick up on a heck of a lot! Grammarly, etc also become options. We are paying for Touch, Type, Read and Spell (not cheap) because it also reviews phonics and spelling, but there are free programs as well. (she does like this one, so I keep paying)

Yes, about the Lord using this to shape us! I'm an author, my best friends are books! My number one retreat is reading. To have a child with dyslexia was a huge blow in a lot of ways. But it made me grow, and made me value other things in my child, and despite her learning issues she is just SO smart and has an amazing work ethic. All things that serve her well. 

Oh wow, I can see my dd  being very frustrated with that in sequential spelling. Does Apples and Pears have dictation? I do think dictation is key to keep at least as a part of the process. A&P does seem like it has more activities/interaction with the words which could be helpful. My dd loves to work independently... but I  need to be a part of spelling for her . . . maybe this would be a balance? 

 

I definitely see the need for a switch in perspective from trying to "fix" to "accommodate" . . , I am headed in that direction, maybe just not quite there yet. 

The Lord definitely shapes us . . and it can be painful lol. 

Thank you all so much for the insight! 

[Lori D.]

I would definitely go for testing. FAR better to find out earlier what exactly you're dealing with, to then be able to find the techniques/therapies that will best help this unique student. Age 9-10 is the perfect time for testing. Waiting beyond that often ends up with the student locking into the "I'm a failure" mindset in the tween/teen years because they are already struggling with self-image, hormones, and the whole adolescence thing. 😞 

You may be able to do therapies yourself at home, or oversee the use of a special program recommended by testing results, rather than automatically needing a therapist.

Also, you want to shut down that "faking it" method now, as it is really going to blow up in her face some time in the next few years, which will really make her self-esteem take a major hit. MUCH better to just very matter of factly get the testing and therapies rolling now, to give her *tools* that will help her from here on out.

Also going to throw in our experience with stealth dyslexia DS#2 who struggled with spelling and writing (and math) -- he did not even begin to "click" with spelling until a little after he turned 12yo. (A lot of children dealing with dyslexia are VERY late bloomers with brain maturity in the spelling area, and don't click until somewhere along about age 12-14.) I ended up having to pull a lot of different things together to make our own remedial spelling.

Things that helped our stealth dyslexia DS#2 (after age 12) :
- oral out-loud back-and-forth spelling of words to help strengthen weak sequential memory (see Andrew Pudewa's free Spelling and Brain session -- very informative)
- out-loud saying/spelling while writing each letter with finger tip -- large, use whole arm)-- on table top
- out-loud saying/spelling while writing each letter on the whiteboard, then out loud again while "unwriting" (erase each letter with finger tip by drawing over the letter)
- a lot of visual work on the whiteboard -- different colors to highlight vowel patterns, endings, etc; little stick figure drawings and "stories" to help remember vowel patterns; etc. (see Stevenson Learning mnemonics for ideas -- we used their "Blue Spelling Manual")
- dictating of 3-4 short (5-6 word) sentences, each with 2-3 spelling words in them, for practicing simultaneous thinking/spelling/writing
- spell-check and typing all of his writing, so he saw something flagged as not correct
- Mega-Words, for practicing vowel patterns and syllabication for breaking words into smaller bites for spelling attack

Also, until you can afford testing, things you can try at home:

You might also look at the Dianne Craft techniques (like the Writing 8s exercises, and cross-lateral physical body movements) to help strengthen brain hemisphere connections. Simple things like start the day with 5 minutes of cross lateral movements, like:

- alternate marching in place (right arm swings forward, left knee lifting high; high arm swings back, left leg plants; then left arm swings forward while right knee lifts high; etc.)
- draw large figure 8s in the air in front of you -- head and eyes stay looking forward, right arm makes large sideways figure 8s that cross at the midline of the body; then do left arm -- key is that the head and eyes do NOT move with the arm
- more quick cross-lateral exercises here, with photos to illustrate

You might also private message Peter Pan about doing metronome work at home, to help with focus and language/speech processing.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Lori D.

[ktgrok]

Color coding is definitely helpful! We learned that in the Memoria Press Traditional Spelling book and although she had very little actual retention, we use it for other things now. 

[ikslo]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:07 AM, Hadley said:

May I just play devil’s advocate here?  I was in your shoes years ago.  I have a seventeen-year-old boy who is quite possibly a stealth dyslexic.  He was reading at three, but by age ten I was convinced that he was just messing with me, surely his spelling couldn’t really be that bad!

I spent thousands of dollars and millions of tears on spelling.  I own every curriculum available in the USA.  We have spent HOURS on spelling in my house, and only now, he is a semi-functional speller.

Know what?  It hasn’t hurt him at all.  He uses the spell-check as needed, and knows to have someone glance over his spelling before he sends important e-mails.  He is an excellent writer who excels in math.  He came dang near the ceiling on the SAT.

I just want to remind you to keep spelling in its place.  I gave it way too much worry and anxiety.  Choose a program and just keep plugging along.  My son’s spelling finally became functional when he was a sophomore in high school.  Honestly.  It’s okay.

Funny aside:  I was just looking at an AP Calculus final that was on his desk.  He made a 99, yet he had written a note to his teacher in which he had spelled ‘proper’, ‘propper’.  I also have a cousin getting his PhD in Physics who left me a note with ‘baby’ spelled ‘babby’.  Both my son and this boy can recite spelling rules all day long, but don’t apply them.  I have come to the conclusion that different minds have different skills and strengths.

I’d encourage you to keep working, daily, at spelling.  I do, however, hope you don’t lose as much sleep over the issue as I did.  Ten is still very young.  Give it diligence and time.  Lots of time...

This

ETA: Almost every engineer I work with has horrible spelling.  It isn't the end of the world.  

On 4/23/2020 at 1:24 PM, Ktgrok said:

All this. At some point, you keep plugging along, but you shift the focus from "fixing it" to accomodating it. To finding success in a different way. If your child doesn't yet type, please put a lot of time and effort into having them learn. Make it a priority. Once they can type they can use spell check, autocorrect, etc. No, those tools are not perfect. But they will pick up on a heck of a lot! Grammarly, etc also become options. We are paying for Touch, Type, Read and Spell (not cheap) because it also reviews phonics and spelling, but there are free programs as well. (she does like this one, so I keep paying)

And this.  TTRS helped my DS a lot.  

 

Maybe also get her vision checked.

Edited April 24, 2020 by ikslo

[ByGrace3]

14 hours ago, Lori D. said:

I would definitely go for testing. FAR better to find out earlier what exactly you're dealing with, to then be able to find the techniques/therapies that will best help this unique student. Age 9-10 is the perfect time for testing. Waiting beyond that often ends up with the student locking into the "I'm a failure" mindset in the tween/teen years because they are already struggling with self-image, hormones, and the whole adolescence thing. 😞 

You may be able to do therapies yourself at home, or oversee the use of a special program recommended by testing results, rather than automatically needing a therapist.

Also, you want to shut down that "faking it" method now, as it is really going to blow up in her face some time in the next few years, which will really make her self-esteem take a major hit. MUCH better to just very matter of factly get the testing and therapies rolling now, to give her *tools* that will help her from here on out.

Also going to throw in our experience with stealth dyslexia DS#2 who struggled with spelling and writing (and math) -- he did not even begin to "click" with spelling until a little after he turned 12yo. (A lot of children dealing with dyslexia are VERY late bloomers with brain maturity in the spelling area, and don't click until somewhere along about age 12-14.) I ended up having to pull a lot of different things together to make our own remedial spelling.

Things that helped our stealth dyslexia DS#2 (after age 12) :
- oral out-loud back-and-forth spelling of words to help strengthen weak sequential memory (see Andrew Pudewa's free Spelling and Brain session -- very informative)
- out-loud saying/spelling while writing each letter with finger tip -- large, use whole arm)-- on table top
- out-loud saying/spelling while writing each letter on the whiteboard, then out loud again while "unwriting" (erase each letter with finger tip by drawing over the letter)
- a lot of visual work on the whiteboard -- different colors to highlight vowel patterns, endings, etc; little stick figure drawings and "stories" to help remember vowel patterns; etc. (see Stevenson Learning mnemonics for ideas -- we used their "Blue Spelling Manual")
- dictating of 3-4 short (5-6 word) sentences, each with 2-3 spelling words in them, for practicing simultaneous thinking/spelling/writing
- spell-check and typing all of his writing, so he saw something flagged as not correct
- Mega-Words, for practicing vowel patterns and syllabication for breaking words into smaller bites for spelling attack

Also, until you can afford testing, things you can try at home:

You might also look at the Dianne Craft techniques (like the Writing 8s exercises, and cross-lateral physical body movements) to help strengthen brain hemisphere connections. Simple things like start the day with 5 minutes of cross lateral movements, like:

- alternate marching in place (right arm swings forward, left knee lifting high; high arm swings back, left leg plants; then left arm swings forward while right knee lifts high; etc.)
- draw large figure 8s in the air in front of you -- head and eyes stay looking forward, right arm makes large sideways figure 8s that cross at the midline of the body; then do left arm -- key is that the head and eyes do NOT move with the arm
- more quick cross-lateral exercises here, with photos to illustrate

You might also private message Peter Pan about doing metronome work at home, to help with focus and language/speech processing.

 

Thank  you. I actually have some of the Diane Craft materials. . . I bought them for my ds but never did much with them. May need too drag that out. 

[Bobos_Mom]

We AAS series for my 1st grader and my spelling challenged 4th grader. Its fine. They are bored. Developmentally I think they are just at different paces for spelling. We do the "Words I use when I write" type of series with EPS.  We are changing to EPS SpellWell series next year. They want to be able to do more student led activities. My 1st grader LOVES worksheets, my 4th grader likes how it looks.  We are also going to add Vocabulary from Classical Roots for the older dd. I just have come to accept that she struggles with spelling, we will work our rules, spelling families and use tools like keeping their own writing dictionary of words but I am not going to focus and stress on it like I have obsessed over the past two years.  We have used Spelling City, Spelling You See, Sequential Spelling, Spelling in programs like TGTB, Touch-type Read and Spell (TTRS). None of it worked out well so we are going to do something what they consider fun like SpellWell and us the AAS books as back up/reminders for a supplement. 

[Tanaqui]

I want to say, having a dyslexic kiddo, that the fact that your kid is at least on track to phonetic spelling is still something to be happy about. My kid wasn't there at that age, even though she could read well. (So long as it was in sentences or paragraphs - to this day, she still can't manage a list of words, or a label on something where she doesn't already know what it says.)

We used apples and pears, and it got her, in one year, from writing like a first grader who couldn't spell to writing like a fourth grader who couldn't spell. She was in fourth grade, so that's actually three years worth of progress! If you're interested in the program, you can look at the entire curriculum, workbook and required teacher's guide, online at their website. I found it worked well for her, though she did find the dictation boring. But every kid is different.

I also would recommend getting a formal diagnosis as soon as it's safe to do so in your community. This is not worth risking spreading covid-19 around for, but it's pretty important.

[PeterPan]

On 4/22/2020 at 8:13 PM, ByGrace3 said:

She even failed part C of the Barton screening

https://bartonreading.com/student-result/#sf  These are Barton's recommendations. Have you thought about following them and then going *back* to AAS to see if she does better? That screening is telling you she's missing foundational skills to succeed with ANY program, which is why she keeps struggling. So fill in those holes (with LIPS or FIS) and then go use whatever spelling program you want.

On 4/22/2020 at 8:13 PM, ByGrace3 said:

I have hesitated getting a formal diagnosis, hoping we could help her at home . . . the question I have is do I give in, get her diagnosed so I can get access to funding to get the tutoring helps she needs? (we cannot afford it on our own).

So yes, it would be to her benefit on many levels to be diagnosed. You can do it through the ps for free or privately, whatever you can make happen. She will probably be relieved to have answers. Some states have disability funding but I'm not sure how widespread that is. Check your specific state. We get disability funding, yes, so we've been through the IEP process, the whole enchilada. If you come over to LC, people can walk you through it. 

I wouldn't assume you need tutoring. I would see if you can get someone to do a baseline CTOPP and then do LIPS or FIS, whichever you want. Then see where you're at and decide on the tutoring. Do you yourself pass the tutor screening test?

[8filltheheart]

Spelling rules never worked with my dyslexics.  Spelling correctly took getting the correct spelling into their long term memory.  Apples and Pears is the program that has had the best outcome with my kids.

[ByGrace3]

Well, just got back a little bit ago from her dyslexia assessment.  Apparently, dh, all 3 of my kids and I are dyslexic.  Still processing everything and praying about how to proceed. We will most likely do Barton. . . but man it seems overwhelming right now. And not having her do any reading outside of Barton lessons for the next how many years is so counter everything in me. I didn't ask about writing...should she not do writing either? ugh, I have a lot to figure out here. On the other hand dd is feeling pretty good since she can confidently now say her inability to spell is "not her fault." lol 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

Well, just got back a little bit ago from her dyslexia assessment.  Apparently, dh, all 3 of my kids and I are dyslexic.  Still processing everything and praying about how to proceed. We will most likely do Barton. . . but man it seems overwhelming right now. And not having her do any reading outside of Barton lessons for the next how many years is so counter everything in me. I didn't ask about writing...should she not do writing either? ugh, I have a lot to figure out here. On the other hand dd is feeling pretty good since she can confidently now say her inability to spell is "not her fault." lol 

Aww, that's rough! But you know, you've got this. Just give it time. You have a brand new diagnosis and diagnoses for everyone and it's a big shock. It's also a grief, and it's ok to take time to process that.

I wouldn't assume you're talking *years* before she's reading outside material. Barton usually suggests not *requiring* outside reading till they get through Barton 4. So she may, on her own, begin reading environmental print and small amounts. It will probably happen. You can continue to use audiobooks, etc. to develop her language while you bring eye reading on board. If your doc would be willing to sign the forms, you could get your kids registered with the National Library Service. They'll send you a reader that can take thumb drives with audiobooks or you can register and use their BARD app to download. That will give you TONS of audiobooks for free. Also try your local library obviously. I really like the kindle fire as well, for it's low price point, durability, parental controls, and ability to play both BARD and audible audiobooks as well as stuff from your library. 

So this was the dd10, your youngest? And she's rising 5th? Ok, I can see why you're bummed. Are you going to do the Barton with her or hire it done? Barton has suggested amounts of time, but I will tell you that some people on the boards here have gotten really wild. I think as long as you keep it no more than 2-3 hours a day you're fine. I made a big push with my ds and did 2- 2 ½ hours a day for quite a while. We always worked in short chunks, but we'd work, break, work, break. I have friends who are like oh Barton just blends into our lives and they work a section of a lesson a day and plow. I think you should do what makes sense to you. I'm just saying if you're worried, you can be more aggressive. You just have to drop other demands so their brains can focus the energy. But yes, we've had people make huge pushes and you could do that. Maybe try for 1 hour a day or 1 ½ when including fluency drills. I loaded things into quizlet, but there are many ways to drill fluency. 

It's a lot to take in. Don't forget to come over to LC and ask questions if you need anything. We'll be cheering for you and love to hear your progress. Are you going to run all the kids through the Barton or just your youngest? And she failed section C on the screening for Barton. Are you planning to do FIS or LIPS for that? Does the person who will be doing the tutoring pass the Barton tutor screening? 

[ByGrace3]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Aww, that's rough! But you know, you've got this. Just give it time. You have a brand new diagnosis and diagnoses for everyone and it's a big shock. It's also a grief, and it's ok to take time to process that.

I wouldn't assume you're talking *years* before she's reading outside material. Barton usually suggests not *requiring* outside reading till they get through Barton 4. So she may, on her own, begin reading environmental print and small amounts. It will probably happen. You can continue to use audiobooks, etc. to develop her language while you bring eye reading on board. If your doc would be willing to sign the forms, you could get your kids registered with the National Library Service. They'll send you a reader that can take thumb drives with audiobooks or you can register and use their BARD app to download. That will give you TONS of audiobooks for free. Also try your local library obviously. I really like the kindle fire as well, for it's low price point, durability, parental controls, and ability to play both BARD and audible audiobooks as well as stuff from your library. 

So this was the dd10, your youngest? And she's rising 5th? Ok, I can see why you're bummed. Are you going to do the Barton with her or hire it done? Barton has suggested amounts of time, but I will tell you that some people on the boards here have gotten really wild. I think as long as you keep it no more than 2-3 hours a day you're fine. I made a big push with my ds and did 2- 2 ½ hours a day for quite a while. We always worked in short chunks, but we'd work, break, work, break. I have friends who are like oh Barton just blends into our lives and they work a section of a lesson a day and plow. I think you should do what makes sense to you. I'm just saying if you're worried, you can be more aggressive. You just have to drop other demands so their brains can focus the energy. But yes, we've had people make huge pushes and you could do that. Maybe try for 1 hour a day or 1 ½ when including fluency drills. I loaded things into quizlet, but there are many ways to drill fluency. 

It's a lot to take in. Don't forget to come over to LC and ask questions if you need anything. We'll be cheering for you and love to hear your progress. Are you going to run all the kids through the Barton or just your youngest? And she failed section C on the screening for Barton. Are you planning to do FIS or LIPS for that? Does the person who will be doing the tutoring pass the Barton tutor screening? 

 

It is my youngest. The lady we met with said 2-3 hours a week, I had no idea it would be more. . . but without reading, spelling, and writing, we will have the time! I don't think I will take the others through Barton at this point . . . though I may change my mind. Anyone care to change my mind??? My oldest is almost 15, reads and spells well. She struggles with reading comprehension but is a super diligent kid with a high desire to do well. She has 3 outside classes this year including geometry, Formal Logic at Schole and a super difficult biology class with college prep science. She has A's in all of them so is obviously accommodating herself fine. And she is doing Omnibus at home . . . having no trouble getting the reading "done" but yes struggling to comprehend-- but they are tough books. Am I missing something big here? I have always had great comprehension  but dh is terrible. Yet he has a phd. lol apparently we are a group of struggling overachievers. Who knew?!? 

Funny enough, when we got our two bonus kids in March and started homeschooling them, the new 10 year old struggles a lot like my oldest. Come to find out bonus child has a very long IEP. I looked at my husband and was like apparently none of our children are neurtypical and I had no idea! I thought these problems were all normal! No wonder things have not been easy in teaching this crew. lol But they are all thriving...

As far as Barton, dd failed it when I gave her the test but she passed it just fine with the specialist. That gives me pause as to whether I can this with her. I also passed the tutor screening with her. 

Thanks for the suggestions for audiobooks. I will look into that. 

I would like to get outside tutoring but we cannot afford that right now. However, I am going to apply for the scholarship for both of my 10 year olds to try to get them both into tutoring as soon as we can. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

The lady we met with said 2-3 hours a week, I had no idea it would be more.

Not *would* be more but *could* be more. You can spend as much time as you want. It really depends on how pressing the situation is, how motivated the student is, what you think is best. If you are driving to private therapy, yes many people will say to shoot for 2-3 sessions a week. We've had people here do sessions 4-5X a week when doing it privately. And remember private therapy, if the person is stellar, can be highly efficient. Like a local practice here is run by SLPs and they literally change the task every 5-7 minutes, so that the students get through *12* areas in one session. I kid you not. Like they'll get through not only decoding and phonological processing but spelling, writing, typing, reading aloud, reward activities, everything. Bam, bam, bam. So obviously a mom who has less experience is going to go more slowly. 

I'm saying don't be afraid to put in the time and don't be afraid to ramp it up to whatever you think could be good. You could make it an area of emphasis till you get through Barton 4 and then slow down.

Is this person a psych? I don't know, it seems a little presumptive to me that someone is diagnosing an entire family without testing. You all really might be, but maybe just take it under advisement. Fwiw I consider my dh dyslexic. He's just really classic, with difficulties in spelling, very slow reading, difficulties writing, difficulties with a foreign language, and of course your bonus ADHD. ADHD is about 60% comorbid in dyslexia. 

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

having no trouble getting the reading "done" but yes struggling to comprehend-- but they are tough books.

Have you talked with the dc to figure out *why* this is happening? Or have you done any testing? If the dc reads less (because reading is difficult), then yes over time it becomes a self-fulfilling thing as now the vocabulary is less familiar and the reading comprehension becomes harder, the syntax less familiar, etc. You can also have issues with attention (ADHD is 60% comorbid) and slow reading speed (poor RAN/RAS). Low RAN/RAS is considered a lagging indicator of dyslexia, something that is present typically even when kids have had intervention. Ironically it's SUPER easy to do intervention for. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0  Here, see if this works. Should be a dropbox folder with my RAN/RAS files I made to use with my ds. You can make more kinds, with numbers, whatever. The CTOPP tests RAN/RAS multiple ways and strong RAN/RAS is strongly correlated with strong readers.

So things you could do immediately with your oldest to improve how things are going

-work on RAN/RAS

-consider whether she needs evals for ADHD and possible medication. ADHD/dyslexia will often have low processing speed, something that only shows up if you do full psych evals. The ADHD meds not only help attention but bump processing speed.

-add audiobooks for every book she is eye reading. You should be able to get almost all books either as audio or as an ebook where she can turn on the text to speech function. If she can do it as "immersion reading" where she hears the audio and reads along, that's even better. You definitely want to do this because it's something that could make an IMMEDIATE difference.

-consider options for addressing the reading comprehension--there are workbooks in comprehension strategies, but you might see if you can find an SLP who specializes in literacy. A Barton reading tutor is NOT trained to address comprehension, and you're saying over and over that comprehension is a significant issue in your family. So what you're looking for is an SLP who specializes in literacy who can test to determine *why* the dc is having difficulty with comprehension. Syntax, vocabulary, attention, narrative language, there are quite a few reasons. That would be a once a week appointment, not 3-4 like dyslexia tutoring. And you know if the audiobooks solve it, then boom the issue was the strain of decoding maxing out her ability to focus on the comprehension. But if she's still having issues, even with added tech/audiobooks, then consider outsourcing that. They could figure out the patterns of why it's happening and get in there and get it done.

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

I don't think I will take the others through Barton at this point

Well you'd like to see a reason, kwim? Your high schooler's time is precious. Is her reading slow? If she tries to read aloud, does she stumble over unfamiliar words? 

I think what I would do with the high schooler is administer the Barton screening or even the tutor screening, and then very coyly ask if she would be kind enough to spend 10 minutes a day doing one of the phonogram drill sessions with your youngest  As long as she passes the screening, is spelling adequately, and is able to decode unfamiliar words when reading aloud, then maybe just that quiet 10 minutes a day where she learns the phonograms and helps break words into syllables to help her sibling would be enough. 

Dyslexia is a funny thing. It's not one gene and it's not yes/no. I found this study from China that I've linked in the past where they were looking at like 10-12 SNPs (parts of genes) and each one affected a different area of the dyslexia. So you could be heterozygous or homozygous for various genes affecting various parts of the reading process. You could have someone, like my dd, who had some funky issues with spelling and was slower to click and who has a hard time writing, but when you go through the genetics she's heterozygous. So she's not diagnosed with the SLD and she doesn't quite get there, even though she had funky issues. Then you have my ds, and he's diagnosed, agreed upon by multiple people, and he's homozygous. 

So that's why I was saying take unofficial diagnoses from a reading tutor with a grain of salt. Difficulties are not a diagnosis and full psych evals might turn up more consequential things. ADHD and getting access to meds and EF supports could be very consequential. I would look at what's really going on and deal with what you really see. Does she need extended time? Audiobooks? Use of tech to make notes? Help with understanding writing structures? Tech with dictation to get her thoughts out for writing? These are pretty normal supports, and you want her to have access to any of them she needs, no matter what a psych concludes. She may also need full evals at some point to give her protections if she needs these accommodations. My dd uses accommodations in college, makes a huge difference. 

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

I had no idea! I thought these problems were all normal!

That's hilarious, lol. But isn't it so true! 

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

As far as Barton, dd failed it when I gave her the test but she passed it just fine with the specialist.

It was her 2nd time through the same tasks, same words? Well sure she would do better. I would either call Barton and talk it through with her or just put her through FIS anyway. Given your own challenges and the complexity of your situation, with lots of kids, etc., you would be well advised to do FIS, not LIPS. https://www.foundationinsounds.com  I used LIPS, but FIS is open and go, fully scripted. I think running through it is the easiest way to make SURE that she's good to go. But you know, if you talk with Barton maybe she'll have a 2nd test or say not to bother, kwim? But running through the same list of words/tasks within even 6 months of administrations is not really valid. Your kids are obviously super bright, so they could easily remember the words and have time to process. So see if Barton has another version or what she suggests. Also the publishers of FIS or Barton might have a post-test for FIS. That would be a GREAT idea, doing a post-test for FIS.

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

That gives me pause as to whether I can this with her.

Don't let the tutor and thoughts of can't worry you! These people make $60-100 an hour in our area and part of it depends on convincing us that we CAN'T DO IT. So the truth is you passed the tutor screening. The truth is this woman is NOT reasonable to diagnose you, your other kids, etc. without doing evals. She SUSPECTS something, she assumes. And is she a reading tutor or a psych??? I've never seen a psych be that irresponsible honestly. They usually hold their diagnoses close to the cuff. If this was a Barton trained tutor, there are significant limitations that come with that. I just would take this all with a grain of salt, under advisement as a possibility.

A motivated mom can do miracles.

If you passed the tutor screening, you're good to go.

Barton is fully scripted, so you cannot screw it up. If you do it with fidelity and actually do all the parts, you're not going to screw it up.

Barton does not fully address reading comprehension so students with that difficulty may need extra resources.

So that's the truth. You've got this. You take steps, you see what happens, and you deal with what becomes obvious as you take each step. You do not have to be perfect. You're the one who is there so you're going to get it done. I always tell myself that the professional has to be at least TWICE as good as I would have been in the same time, because I lose time driving there, time driving back, etc. So if I can get something pretty close done in two hours that would have taken them one, I'm STILL out ahead doing it at home, because I don't have to deal with all those disruptions and the stress and can be flexible. Tutoring can be the right option and the most efficient option, or at home with good materials can be good. But don't undersell yourself and say you can't. If you prepare, if you are diligent, if you PUT IN THE TIME, odds are you're going to make terrific progress.

And anybody who's telling you otherwise and has a financial interest in you thinking you can't is, well, that's just not nice. 

If you're so busy with so many demands in life that you can't, that's fine. If you get into it and hate the dynamic, that's fine. If you don't want to, that's fine. But if you want to and you do the foundational work and put in the time, you're probably going to nail this. We have people on LC making miracles happen ALL THE TIME.

Edited May 9, 2020 by PeterPan

[Hadley]

I am so glad that you listened to your mom gut and sought an answer.  I know that you will never regret all the work that you put in to help your children over this hump!  

[ktgrok]

If you want something for the other kids that is less time intense than Barton, look at Abecedarian. It is also great for dyslexic kids, and better decoding skills, more fluency, woudl help your one with reading comprehension issues. Could be done in 20 minutes a day. 

We did Barton level 1, then switched to Abecedarian as it was more efficient and my DD was very motivated - she wanted to move more quickly. 

[ByGrace3]

17 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

If you want something for the other kids that is less time intense than Barton, look at Abecedarian. It is also great for dyslexic kids, and better decoding skills, more fluency, woudl help your one with reading comprehension issues. Could be done in 20 minutes a day. 

We did Barton level 1, then switched to Abecedarian as it was more efficient and my DD was very motivated - she wanted to move more quickly. 

 

See here is the dilemma. I look at the placement test for Abecedarian and I cannot imagine taking my older kids through that . . . they are strong spellers and writers. DS even has pretty good comprehension . . . older dd struggles there but her decoding skills are fine. I'm not sure what they would gain? But I am new to this so am probably looking at it wrong . . . 

ok I had my two older kids read a page of the nonsense words-- which they read perfectly. Now they have a strong phonics background (Abeka and AAS for dd, and AAR and AAS for ds followed by Megawords for both).  Am I missing something? 

 

[8filltheheart]

34 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

See here is the dilemma. I look at the placement test for Abecedarian and I cannot imagine taking my older kids through that . . . they are strong spellers and writers. DS even has pretty good comprehension . . . older dd struggles there but her decoding skills are fine. I'm not sure what they would gain? But I am new to this so am probably looking at it wrong . . . 

ok I had my two older kids read a page of the nonsense words-- which they read perfectly. Now they have a strong phonics background (Abeka and AAS for dd, and AAR and AAS for ds followed by Megawords for both).  Am I missing something? 

 

Take this FWIW, it is just my experience with my own kids, but my dyslexic kids have not fit a specific profile.  I have had dyslexic kids who struggled mightily to learn to read.  But, equally, I have a dyslexic dd who learned to read just fine, but she is a very slow reader and her spelling at 14 is on par with 4th grade sisters (actually the 4th grader probably spells slightly better.)

WIth my 14 yr old, taking Cornell notes from her reading ahas vastly improved her comprehension and long-term memory of concepts. For spelling, we use Apples and Pears (she is almost finished with book D and then we will move to How to Teach Spelling. Both have spiraled dictation which has what it has taken to get spelling to "sink" in.)

[ktgrok]

Ok, so the one with the reading comprehension issues shows no signs of phonemic skill weakness? Does she read very slowly, or normally? How is her oral vocabulary and oral comprehension?

[ByGrace3]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, so the one with the reading comprehension issues shows no signs of phonemic skill weakness? Does she read very slowly, or normally? How is her oral vocabulary and oral comprehension?

 

My oldest is the one with reading comprehension issues. Her reading is great, not slow at all. Does not appear to have any phonemic weakness, has strong oral vocabulary -- oral comprehension is ok -- she would rather read a book herself than have an audio book --- she says she understands that better than hearing it. (my reading comprehension is WAY higher than my oral comprehension).  

[ByGrace3]

Both my older two flew through the nonsense words on the Abcedarian page. 

[8filltheheart]

A dyslexic without slow reading is definitely not the norm. That is either a huge hurdle she has overcome or it might be the source of her comprehension issues.

[ktgrok]

33 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

My oldest is the one with reading comprehension issues. Her reading is great, not slow at all. Does not appear to have any phonemic weakness, has strong oral vocabulary -- oral comprehension is ok -- she would rather read a book herself than have an audio book --- she says she understands that better than hearing it. (my reading comprehension is WAY higher than my oral comprehension).  

Ok..hmm....I also understand better reading than hearing. But not true for my dyslexic (although she does best with visual/video stuff). 

Is she definitely having issues understanding what she reads, or is she having trouble remembering what she read? Could it be a working memory issue, rather than a reading issue? 

[ByGrace3]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok..hmm....I also understand better reading than hearing. But not true for my dyslexic (although she does best with visual/video stuff). 

Is she definitely having issues understanding what she reads, or is she having trouble remembering what she read? Could it be a working memory issue, rather than a reading issue? 

 

hmmm I will have to look into that. When she was younger it was terrible. She would read an entire book like "Sarah Plain and Tall" and couldn't tell me that the main characters name was Sarah. It was bad. It is better now, but she says she still "struggles". Is there a good reading comprehension test that might be a good indicator? The only standardized testing she has ever done was the Stanford 10 and she scored well in all areas as far as I can remember. I do remember her reading comp being lower than the rest but was still above average. . . .

 

oh and my youngest for sure has way better oral comprehension than reading -- so the dyslexia there makes sense. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by ByGrace3

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

hmmm I will have to look into that. When she was younger it was terrible. She would read an entire book like "Sarah Plain and Tall" and couldn't tell me that the main characters name was Sarah. It was bad. It is better now, but she says she still "struggles". Is there a good reading comprehension test that might be a good indicator? The only standardized testing she has ever done was the Stanford 10 and she scored well in all areas as far as I can remember. I do remember her reading comp being lower than the rest but was still above average. . . .

 

oh and my youngest for sure has way better oral comprehension than reading -- so the dyslexia there makes sense. 

Any signs of ADHD? Could she just not pay attention to certain things? (that part about not knowing the main character's name is Sarah sounds like something i might do, lol)

But there are definite working memory tests...you might want to look into "symptoms" of that and see what you think...would express in areas other than just reading though. 

Generally, reading comprehension is thought of as fluency + vocabulary. If she has both of those down, then I'd think ADHD or working memory issues (with often go together). 

[PeterPan]

12 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

See here is the dilemma. I look at the placement test for Abecedarian and I cannot imagine taking my older kids through that . . . they are strong spellers and writers. DS even has pretty good comprehension . . . older dd struggles there but her decoding skills are fine. I'm not sure what they would gain? But I am new to this so am probably looking at it wrong . . . 

ok I had my two older kids read a page of the nonsense words-- which they read perfectly. Now they have a strong phonics background (Abeka and AAS for dd, and AAR and AAS for ds followed by Megawords for both).  Am I missing something? 

 

The person attempted to diagnose people she hadn't eval'ed. Yes, we would expect a dyslexic to continue to score poorly on a CTOPP or page of nonsense words after a gap in intervention. They just quickly lose everything you put in unless you keep working on it because it's such a disability. So even when they read, they'll often still score poorly.

3 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

 

hmmm I will have to look into that. When she was younger it was terrible. She would read an entire book like "Sarah Plain and Tall" and couldn't tell me that the main characters name was Sarah. It was bad. It is better now, but she says she still "struggles". Is there a good reading comprehension test that might be a good indicator? The only standardized testing she has ever done was the Stanford 10 and she scored well in all areas as far as I can remember. I do remember her reading comp being lower than the rest but was still above average. . . .

You're describing ADHD. Maybe some narrative language deficits. 

The samples on the standardized testing were shorter and the answers were there as multiple choice, no word retrieval needed. To read a book and attend to details and follow the plot and come out ready to give answers, that's really hard. I used to have my dd make single sentence summaries as she went through a book, because she'd get to the end and have zero ability to tell me diddley about the book. She doesn't have dyslexia. She just has really bad ADHD and needed EF=executive function supports. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

oh and my youngest for sure has way better oral comprehension than reading -- so the dyslexia there makes sense. 

Agreed. 

3 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

She would read an entire book like "Sarah Plain and Tall" and couldn't tell me that the main characters name was Sarah. It was bad. It is better now, but she says she still "struggles".

https://www.verywellmind.com/improving-reading-comprehension-in-students-with-adhd-20813  here's an article to get you started. What you might do is find some strategies to improve her attention and engagement with reading and see if they help. If they do, then you're on track. 

Frankly, when a dc that age is saying they're struggling, it's a good time to consider evals. The things that underly these difficulties can create a gap the student sees between what he wants to do and can do, leading to depression. So depression rates among teen girls with ADHD are very, very high. Some of that is hormones, but I think some of it is that gap. And if it is ADHD, not an SLD, you'd like to know what you can put on the table to help her. There are ALL KINDS of amazing things now for ADHD, and of course there are meds. Nothing is like meds. Doing behavioral interventions and EF supports alongside meds is even better. You can even hire an educational therapist, which is someone trained to do this very thing, addressing the intersection of disability and ability, getting them implementing strategies and taking charge of what they need to do to be successful. If you can't find a certified ed therapist, sometimes you can find a psychologist who specializes in ADHD who will help them work on strategies.

If you pursue testing for her, the psych will typically run at least achievement and IQ, and usually they'll see things happen that will drive them to do some more testing. If they are doing 4-5 hours of testing (not 2-3), that usually means they're running enough tests to catch stuff. 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

https://www.aetonline.org/index.php/board-certified-educational-therapist-bcet Finding a board certified educational therapist. There may be more orgs.

https://efpractice.com

https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31213/executive-functions-trainingadolescent.aspx

And of course just go to amazon and put in EF and you'll find a ton.

a thread to get you started 

 

 

[ByGrace3]

 I just started the Barton training. I may be going crazy. I'm not sure I can do this for 6 hours every level. Someone tell me this is necessary. Part of me is thinking I should just go back through AAS Super slowly . .  . This is kind of painful. 😭

[PeterPan]

57 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

 I just started the Barton training. I may be going crazy. I'm not sure I can do this for 6 hours every level. Someone tell me this is necessary. Part of me is thinking I should just go back through AAS Super slowly . .  . This is kind of painful. 😭

Ok, I am one of the *two* people on the planet who like the Barton videos. She's so yoga, Deepak Chopra, whatever for me. (I've never seen DC btw, I'm just saying.) So dark dirty secret, but you don't need to watch those videos. The whole thing is scripted. I would watch a few minutes of the first one just to get your brain in gear and see what she attends to and how she rolls. I think her tone is great. 

But yeah, beyond that, be free. I think I stopped watching after the first level or two and I LIKE them, lol. You probably don't need them and it's scripted. You'll be fine. They're there if you need them. You'll know if you need them.

You're not going to screw this up. You're going to be fine. Repeat this. And no, you don't want to go back to AAS. Just pick up the Barton manual and do it. After you get in the groove, you can skim the printed lessons and be ready to go. You've got this.

[mmasc]

On 4/23/2020 at 7:42 AM, ByGrace3 said:

Also, would you say sequential spelling is better than Apples and Pears (which looks an awful lot like AAS in my opinion). I see both mentioned often for dyslexia so curious-- but i'm wondering if AAS isn't working then A&P probably won't either?

I know I’m late to the party on this, but I wanted to chime in and say that AAS is definitely NOT like A&P. I used AAS just fine with my oldest all the way through level 7, and it was torture for my second ds (most likely dyslexic). I’m sure I posted here and someone told me to try A&P. It has been a game changer. He doesn’t hate spelling and is retaining. It’s basically the only truly successful curriculum we’ve used for this child in any subject area! Like you, I attempted AAS many times and we just could *not* get anywhere with it, in addition to him despising it. We set the timer for A&P and do 15 min a day. We started with book A and are now on book D. We just do the 15 min every single day, bit by bit. I’m sure we’ve done it for at least a couple of years. He’s almost 12 now. FWIW, I did look at Sequential Spelling and just knew it would bring frustration, so I never even tried it. Oh, and yes, there is dictation in A&P. Lots of word “chunking” (morphemes) and very few rules. Just practice, practice, practice on putting similar chunks together. And lots of word and sentence practice. 

[Terabith]

I will probably get flamed for this, but I have a kid with atypical dyslexia.  I'm actually a reading specialist by training, and I knew there was something crunchy going on by the time she was four because she didn't start reading spontaneously but she knew all letters and principle sounds by 18 months, could orally blend and segment by her second birthday, knew dozens of nursery rhymes, could rhyme anything and identify initial sounds....but she didn't start reading, and she could do absolutely NO substitution activities.  (Say lid.  Now change the /l/ to /k/.)  

I got her reading at probably an 8th grade level by the time she was 9.  It was not fun.  Probably inhumane.  Honestly not sure if I would do it again.  But I got her reading.  She could read anything.  I could not get her to spell.  I just couldn't.  She did Wilson tutoring and completed all 12 books, learned all the rules, spells 100% phonetically.  And most of the time, she's wrong.  She has absolutely no visual memory.  Wilson got her to maybe a second grade spelling level.  

For what it's worth, we started Apples and Pears, and it was far more effective than AAS (or Wilson), but I sent her to school when she was 9, so we did not continue it, because I burned literally all my teaching cred with this kid teaching her to read.  We could not have a functional relationship if I was, in any way, teaching her, so I sent her to school.  I don't help with homework.  I don't afterschool.  I don't do anything remotely educational that is not entirely her choice and directed entirely by her.  (So, I can read to her or pick out audiobooks, but if she doesn't like it, we bail.)  I can talk about stuff and strew, but I cannot do any educational work.  

We bought her a smart phone when she was 12.  Six months of texting while using word prediction software got her up to a third grade spelling level, and that is MAGIC, because at a third grade spelling level, spell check is effective.  She is still toast on homonyms.  She still has no visual memory.  But the future is typing and texting.  Tech is the answer.  

I'm not saying give up spelling instruction, because she's still pretty young.  But at some point, you have to figure out where to put energy, and it also becomes apparent that this isn't ever going to really get all the way better, and how can we make this functional?  

[ByGrace3]

Update: We started Barton level 1 yesterday. I have levels 2 and 3 on the way. We are going to give it our best effort over the summer and re-evaluate at the end of summer. Part of  me wants to quit before we start and just do A&P, but I wonder if I would always question if I should have tried Barton.  Do people really do all 10 levels? That seems like. . . a lot. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

Do people really do all 10 levels?

Oh mercy no. Get through level 4 and then decide. That gets you through syllabication.

Take deep breaths. The manuals look thick but they go really quickly. You can do this. Bribe yourself with something REALLY AWESOME. Every time you complete a lesson you get a chocolate bar. Five lessons and your dh pays for a massage. Something.

You are now worth $60-80 an hour, so give yourself the kudos and compensation you deserve. You're doing something hard, but you'll be glad you did.

[PeterPan]

And remember, the reward for doing hard things is to DO MORE HARD THINGS.  

You've got this. Let us know how it goes. If it's not a good fit, it's not a good fit. She may need breaks or you may have some learning curve.