S/O Declaring the death of a friendship

[Ginevra]

This is a spin-off from the People are Wrong thread. In it, I had this exchange with @MissLemon: 

Quote

I really would love a whole thread on just this subject and have been mulling that thought around with one of my snoozed friends for a while. I have never been any good at declaring the death of a relationship. I value the happy memories and the things we have in common. But the things we don’t have in common....I have been thinking, “It’s just so much work to be your friend.” 

 

Start one!  I'll weigh in! I have loads of opinions on the matter, lol. I have done so much purging of the relationship and emotional baggage closet lately.

Truly, I have literally never been good at cutting it off with someone. I went to Homecoming Dance with the guy I didn’t want to go with because he persisted more in showing up after every class. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I simply could not say, “Well, Woody also asked me and I like him better.” 

Sometimes it is easy, if the friend is no longer in my circle of people I see automatically. (haha, nobody is in *that* category at the moment!) I have two “friends” in this category. I can only see them if we make arrangements to do so. I had a feeling that one of those friends was trying to brush me off a couple of years ago; we were ostensibly trying to meet for coffee and no day would work stretching out for a month. But then I was dx with cancer and she did sort of swoop in with information, since she has knowledge/expertise in that area. So then I thought, well, maybe she really just *couldn’t meet for coffee*.  But now, her whole narrative wrt Coronavirus has really plucked my last nerve. I wouldn’t meet her for coffee on a dare at present, even if I were willing to be breathed-on by someone. I seriously don’t have the bandwidth to try and be charitable to someone “admiring the patriotism” of protesters. 

I suppose I could go, years into the future, just “being too busy” to get together with either of these ladies, if, indeed, either of them even try. COVID-19 makes a handy excuse for not seeing someone, going forward for a long time. But I don’t think I have it in me to directly end a friendship; at least, not when it wasn’t some dramatic bad behavior on the part of the friend but was more attrition. I guess I tend to think, well, everyone has their negatives and I’m not a perfect person either. I sure hope someone wouldn’t dump me just because, say, I have switched political affiliation or no longer homeschool. 

What can you share about this? Have you directly ended friendships due to drifting/changing views? Or have you just let distance grow? 

[Ausmumof3]

36 minutes ago, Quill said:

This is a spin-off from the People are Wrong thread. In it, I had this exchange with @MissLemon: 

Truly, I have literally never been good at cutting it off with someone. I went to Homecoming Dance with the guy I didn’t want to go with because he persisted more in showing up after every class. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I simply could not say, “Well, Woody also asked me and I like him better.” 

Sometimes it is easy, if the friend is no longer in my circle of people I see automatically. (haha, nobody is in *that* category at the moment!) I have two “friends” in this category. I can only see them if we make arrangements to do so. I had a feeling that one of those friends was trying to brush me off a couple of years ago; we were ostensibly trying to meet for coffee and no day would work stretching out for a month. But then I was dx with cancer and she did sort of swoop in with information, since she has knowledge/expertise in that area. So then I thought, well, maybe she really just *couldn’t meet for coffee*.  But now, her whole narrative wrt Coronavirus has really plucked my last nerve. I wouldn’t meet her for coffee on a dare at present, even if I were willing to be breathed-on by someone. I seriously don’t have the bandwidth to try and be charitable to someone “admiring the patriotism” of protesters. 

I suppose I could go, years into the future, just “being too busy” to get together with either of these ladies, if, indeed, either of them even try. COVID-19 makes a handy excuse for not seeing someone, going forward for a long time. But I don’t think I have it in me to directly end a friendship; at least, not when it wasn’t some dramatic bad behavior on the part of the friend but was more attrition. I guess I tend to think, well, everyone has their negatives and I’m not a perfect person either. I sure hope someone wouldn’t dump me just because, say, I have switched political affiliation or no longer homeschool. 

What can you share about this? Have you directly ended friendships due to drifting/changing views? Or have you just let distance grow? 

I’m like you. At least somewhat. However I suspect some people probably have thought I was ghosting then because I can quite happily go ages living my happy little life and not make contact but if thrown together or they seek it I’m more than happy to catch up and have a good conversation or whatever.  I just find life too busy keeping my family afloat or something.  And sometimes even when people are actively seeking contact I might struggle to get a free day to make it work.

[Jentrovert]

I haven't directly ended a friendship. I have let distance grow because of changing interests and goals of both parties.

I tend to avoid conflict, although I certainly am noticing a bit of a change in this as I get older; I'm more likely now to simply say things straight out. 

As of now, I haven't ever needed to sharply end a close friendship. I've had a handful over the years that have simply fizzled out. 

Full disclosure, I'm one of those people who doesn't really have that many "close" friends. I have a lot of friends, but I don't tend to confide in any in the way that I did with one or two in my teens and twenties. I can also go a long time without seeing someone, just because of being busy and the fact that I don't need a lot of interaction so I may not think of it very often. I'm trying to force myself to initiate contact more often, bc I realize it's important to others. But I find it quite difficult.

The worst experience I've ever had with friends was in my twenties. It seriously affected my trust in people and is probably part of why I don't have close friends today. This involved very close friends, an older married couple, cutting me off quite suddenly. I approached them directly, in tears. Apologized for anything I had inadvertently done, the whole shebang. They acted as if there was no problem at all, they had just been busy, I was misinterpreting. Then a bit later I found out they had also been spreading outright lies about me. About this time, they moved and it was a natural close.

I was devastated over the whole thing and worried about my reputation. I still wonder if people I know think badly of me because of the lies, although some later told me that anyone who knew me would not have believed it. 

If something like that happened now, I would directly end the friendship much sooner. Back then, I believed people were basically good and there must have just been a misunderstanding. It was foreign to me that anyone would deliberately lie. I mean, I knew it could happen, but nothing even remotely similar had ever been my experience.*

Actually, now I can recognize people like that and avoid them from the get-go.

In your example of someone whose beliefs and ideologies have become intolerable to me, I'd probably just let the friendship die naturally.

*Edited to add: You know, actually I did have one other thing happen in my early (mid?) teens. A friend threatened suicide. I was scared and told my parents. She was very angry and tried to start a physical fight with me during lunch at school. I was so nervous and scared! but just turned and walked away from that, and we were never close again. She, too, eventually moved. At the time, I just knew she had a difficult home life and, while I regretted how things turned out, I knew I did the right thing. No way was I capable of handling the suicide threats on my own. 

I think the difference with the friends later was, in my view they were stable adults. So I expected stable adult behavior. Yes, my life was sheltered in many ways. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Jentrovert
Remembered another friendship ending

[MEmama]

I’ve let a few just fizzle and die off naturally. In those cases, the relationships became too much work and I was the only one willing to do it.

[SKL]

Mostly I just stop answering phone calls and messages.  Other people find that they have better things to do than keep beating a dead horse.

I don't like to burn bridges.  And I don't think it's necessary unless the person is literally stalking me.  And the person who was almost a stalker was too scary to cut off that way.  😛

[HS Mom in NC]

I don't believe every friendship is meant to be lifelong.  I'm an INTJ personality with the whole package of types of low emotional needs.   I'm also very resilient, bouncing back relatively quickly from loss and tragedy. So, due to all those factors, I'm perfectly comfortable with letting some friendships fade out naturally. I expect others have done the same with me. I'm well aware that I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea and I understand some friends outgrow me and move on.   Honestly, none of that bothers me in the slightest. That's just how the world works.

No, I don't end friendships over differing views. I don't have the emotional need to be agreed with on my views.  My FB feed is probably a fairly good representation of the US as a whole-about 45% Left, 45% Right, 5% 3rd Party. I'm in the 5% myself.  I strongly advise people to NOT live in a echo chamber because it makes them less skilled in living in our diverse, pluralistic society.  It's getting worse in America because people are carefully constructing their echo chambers. This would apply to lifestyle differences too.

[fairfarmhand]

There are also several reasons for ending friendships. As in one can be just commonalities ending, like a mom who homeschooled had all her kids graduate and she moves on to other things or a co-worker takes a different job and there's gradually less and less in common. Another can be just labeled as "unhealthy relationships." Like when someone is just not a healthy person and it slowly drains you. Or another reason can be that someone has changed morally in ways that you can't stand to be around. Like if one of my close friends had an affair on her her husband and left her family to live a life that I just can't morally condone. I'm not talking about a shift in political views or something innocuous like a homeschooling friend going to work and putting her kids in school, I'm talking about absolute wrong behavior that hurts others.

In my opinion there are two ways to end a friendship. 

1. Just slowly allowing the distance to accumulate. Things can stay cordial but you're no longer close.

2. Having a final discussion spelling out the issues. 

In general, the first is the easiest and least hurtful.  The second is generally needed when someone is behaving badly and you just can't get away from them. 

I was dumped very hurtfully by a friend in the last 18 months. I'll tell you what NOT to do based upon that occurrence. 

If there's a common activity that you've lost interest in and there are group texts and emails, you can ignore those. If its a matter of "we have little in common any more" just let things go and die a natural death. After a few months when you don't show up, it's possible they'll take you off the list or you can say "we have other things going on, if you could just take us off, I would appreciate it." 

If you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, it's ok to just slowly back out of things. But if you are perfectly fine one month, inviting people over, attending those events, seeming to enjoy those activities and you just suddenly drop everything for nothing, you will hurt feelings. The mixed messages will hurt people. If you were there one week and the next you say "Don't call me anymore" for no good reason, you'll hurt people.

Don't make up lame excuses. If you actually have a good reason, say so. In my case, the person had reasons, but they were really pathetic and I think she was embarrassed to say them out loud because they were illogical and immature. So she made up lame things which sounded lame to my ears, but polite people don't push when they know they're getting the brush off. I found out later that this person did have other reasons which were absolutely pathetic but they didn't have the guts to say that out loud. (In other words, keep yourself above the drama of teens. Listen to your kids but don't get emotionally dragged in unless someone is being hurt. So if your kid's crush doesn't respond the way he/she wishes, you behave maturely and counsel the teen to behave maturely. If kids are intentionally or unintentionally being hurtful, go to the other parent and be direct about your concerns.)

Don't triangulate against people. If there's a group that you've historically done things with and you pick all but one family to continue associating with (assuming nothing weird or evil has occurred) you will hurt feelings. Keep things private if there's a private matter and don't talk about how glad you are to be rid of those people who haven't done anything wrong. 

Basically be honest. If your feelings are hurt and you feel silly about something it's okay to say "I feel silly about this but I was hurt when...." Generally that can clear the air. And it at least gives the other person the opportunity to make things right. Be open to the idea that your perceptions are incorrect. Be open to the idea that your KID'S perceptions are incorrect. Be direct. In retrospect, I think the friend who dumped me may have tried to address some stuff but she was so vague that I never figured out where she was going when she spoke to me. It wasn't until later when I heard things from kids and other adults that the pieces fell into place. 

[sassenach]

Just let them fizzle. I’ve never had to cut a friendship off. The only circumstance I can see having to be direct about it would be like MissLemon’s where the person is actively pursuing you and needs to be told to stop. In my life, friendship takes effort, so if I stop making the effort, the friendship inevitably fades away. 

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

This is a spin-off from the People are Wrong thread. In it, I had this exchange with @MissLemon: 

Truly, I have literally never been good at cutting it off with someone. I went to Homecoming Dance with the guy I didn’t want to go with because he persisted more in showing up after every class. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I simply could not say, “Well, Woody also asked me and I like him better.” 

Sometimes it is easy, if the friend is no longer in my circle of people I see automatically. (haha, nobody is in *that* category at the moment!) I have two “friends” in this category. I can only see them if we make arrangements to do so. I had a feeling that one of those friends was trying to brush me off a couple of years ago; we were ostensibly trying to meet for coffee and no day would work stretching out for a month. But then I was dx with cancer and she did sort of swoop in with information, since she has knowledge/expertise in that area. So then I thought, well, maybe she really just *couldn’t meet for coffee*.  But now, her whole narrative wrt Coronavirus has really plucked my last nerve. I wouldn’t meet her for coffee on a dare at present, even if I were willing to be breathed-on by someone. I seriously don’t have the bandwidth to try and be charitable to someone “admiring the patriotism” of protesters. 

I suppose I could go, years into the future, just “being too busy” to get together with either of these ladies, if, indeed, either of them even try. COVID-19 makes a handy excuse for not seeing someone, going forward for a long time. But I don’t think I have it in me to directly end a friendship; at least, not when it wasn’t some dramatic bad behavior on the part of the friend but was more attrition. I guess I tend to think, well, everyone has their negatives and I’m not a perfect person either. I sure hope someone wouldn’t dump me just because, say, I have switched political affiliation or no longer homeschool. 

What can you share about this? Have you directly ended friendships due to drifting/changing views? Or have you just let distance grow? 

My daughter directly ended a friendship  I think part of the problem with drifting is that social media makes it hard to naturally cut those ties.  You "see" those people living their lives, maybe hanging with mutual friends (which can be hurtful), etc.   This is what motivated my daughter to officially end it.  She could not drift away.  When she tried to ghost her or disappear quietly, this person would text her with things like "I saw you were at a b-day party for C and why wasn't I invited?"  (my dd did not throw the party only attended).    DD ended up taking a scorched earth policy and I feel it was a mistake.  Now, from the information I had from my daughter, it was a toxic relationship and needed to end.  It is how she ended it that I think was a mistake.  It does say something about my daughter and her unwillingness to just let this person be this person (from a distance of course).   She's definitely going through a "black and white" phase with friendships... and it's hard to watch.    The other reason is this person isn't entirely out of our lives.  She is part of our family's circle of acquaintances.    She goes to our parish and I sing with her in the choir... we're on very good terms.  Surprisingly, it makes it hard for dd to come to church because it makes *her* feel uncomfortable.    Obviously, for you it will depend on how much your other friends see this person too... how much that might have an effect on your other friendships.  It has effected my daughter's other friendships because there were about 4-5 of them that were all friends together.  They have drifted apart.   Of course, YMMV about officially ending a friendship.

[gardenmom5]

Making a blunt "I'm not going to be friends with you anymore" - is a burning bridges type of statement.  Something I wouldn't generally recommend.

I think how this is done is a fine line.  in some cases, just let the distance grow - be too busy, etc. can be the better option.  Other times being more direct is required.

 

whatever the state of a relationship - boundaries in one form or another, are appropriate.  

 

[hippiemamato3]

I once had to end a friendship because it had become so unhealthy that my PTSD made me physically sick every time I was around her. I sent an email and told her that I needed a long break. It was the right thing to do, but it hurt. It still hurts. We had been friends since we were 11 years old. It's been 6 years and I still think about her and her kids. 

[PrincessMommy]

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I don't believe every friendship is meant to be lifelong.  I'm an INTJ personality with the whole package of types of low emotional needs.   I'm also very resilient, bouncing back relatively quickly from loss and tragedy. So, due to all those factors, I'm perfectly comfortable with letting some friendships fade out naturally. I expect others have done the same with me. I'm well aware that I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea and I understand some friends outgrow me and move on.   Honestly, none of that bothers me in the slightest. That's just how the world works.

No, I don't end friendships over differing views. I don't have the emotional need to be agreed with on my views.  My FB feed is probably a fairly good representation of the US as a whole-about 45% Left, 45% Right, 5% 3rd Party. I'm in the 5% myself.  I strongly advise people to NOT live in a echo chamber because it makes them less skilled in living in our diverse, pluralistic society.  It's getting worse in America because people are carefully constructing their echo chambers. This would apply to lifestyle differences too.

Your feed sounds like my feed. 🙂  It's almost entertaining to watch the opposite take on any given topic come through my feed.     I just spent a little effort trying to discuss the "echo chamber" effect with a FB friend.  

I prefer to be open-minded about different views.  I guess there are some lines I won't cross-  like those who would mock my religion or belief.  But, I find mocking in general to be obnoxious - whether it's political, social, or religious.   But, for the most part in-person friendships are less fraught with such pitfalls compared to online friendships-  which is why I almost never friend a IRL friend on FB.  I just don't need/want to know the politics of my church friends.  

[HS Mom in NC]

10 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Your feed sounds like my feed. 🙂  It's almost entertaining to watch the opposite take on any given topic come through my feed.     I just spent a little effort trying to discuss the "echo chamber" effect with a FB friend.  

I prefer to be open-minded about different views.  I guess there are some lines I won't cross-  like those who would mock my religion or belief.  But, I find mocking in general to be obnoxious - whether it's political, social, or religious.   But, for the most part in-person friendships are less fraught with such pitfalls compared to online friendships-  which is why I almost never friend a IRL friend on FB.  I just don't need/want to know the politics of my church friends.  

I'm very thick skinned. Jesus told me to expect Christians will be mocked and should respond in love to it, so I'm not interested in distancing myself from that. It's an important aspect of a life of faith that is ultimately for my good.  I also think it's important for everyone to be continually reminded that people who love and obey Jesus will have very different political views, so I friend just about everyone IRL on FB and am not bothered at all that they have different views than me or that there are a few whose views I don't know at all.  That's just life.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am a very loyal friend.  Or acquaintance.  I will be there for people for years as long as there is some reciprocity.  That doesn't mean that everyone is in my inner circle.  But I will check in, will be kind etc.  But I refuse to do all the work of a closer friendship.  I am not making tallies of who contacted whom and when.  But you know when you are the only one who ever reaches out.  I have had some periods of very serious illness and some people that I thought were close friends (and absolutely knew how sick I was) didn't reach out even once during my illness or afterwards.  I never reached out to them again and consequently never heard from them again.  That hurt a lot but I don't have a definition of friendship that doesn't involve some sort of give and take.  On the flip side, I have three very close friendships that go back 30 years or more, one 45 years.  We are busy and only get together a couple of times a year but we are there for each other and "get" each other in a way that many who haven't shared so much of life's journey together just can't pick up from sharing anecdotes etc.  

[Doodlebug]

I don't think calling a formal time of death is required in most relationship scenarios.  Reasonably healthy people understand the seasonal nature of casual friendships and give each other the freedom to move in and out of contact as circumstances dictate. 

Equally, I think we all move through phases with close friends/ family where we all need some space to grow.  As I tell my husband, "I'm not saying I will never have a relationship with your sister.  I am hopeful that we will find each other mutually agreeable in a future season."  😄  The only formal line I need to distinguish in the quiet of my own mind is: We can't be friends right now.

In my experience, spelling it out was only necessary in a close friendship when destructive behavior was impacting me personally.  Her mounting anger issues pounded on my vulnerabilities and that combination made the friendship an impossibility.  I've found it's easiest for me to move on if I can acknowledge the part my own history plays... because we're all broken in some way.  

Edited April 22, 2020 by Doodlebug

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm very thick skinned. Jesus told me to expect Christians will be mocked and should respond in love to it, so I'm not interested in distancing myself from that. It's an important aspect of a life of faith that is ultimately for my good.  I also think it's important for everyone to be continually reminded that people who love and obey Jesus will have very different political views, so I friend just about everyone IRL on FB and am not bothered at all that they have different views than me or that there are a few whose views I don't know at all.  That's just life.

Is this true for you if you see some post that shows you something really ugly about the person? Like, if you have seen the sign from the protester that says, “Sacrifice the Weak; Re-open TN.” If your friend posted it like, “Yeah! I agree! Americans have to get back to work! If some old people have to die, well then' that’s life!” This didn’t happen, BTW; I didn’t see any friends post something like this BUT I have also snoozed all the people who might possibly think this way because, if they really think that way, I don’t know how I can be friends going forward. So, IOW, it’s not, “Oh, you voted for XYZ?” That isn’t my issue. It’s when someone I am “friends” with supports a view I find repugnant. I’m not sure how I would go on being friends with that person. 

I do think my feed on FB is more echo-chamberish than it has been ever before but it’s because of this. ^^ 

[Farrar]

In my youth, there were some dramatic "I am ending this friendship!" moments. But as an adult, I can't quite imagine doing that. It feels a little bit like putting a post on social media about how you're leaving. Immature. I've always just let the distance grow. Then again, I've never had an adult friendship where someone has been pushy toward my boundaries when I've backed off, so there's that. I mean, not that I haven't experienced any drama in adult friendships. I definitely have. But when I've backed away, I've found that it hasn't followed me very far so I've never had to do more than that.

[LucyStoner]

When the friendship is over, it's over.  There's no need to announce it or renounce the person.  

I'm comfortable with hard conversations and not particularly leery or afraid of conflict but I don't think I need to create conflict by saying things that don't need to be said about the status of a friendship.  

The only times I have made it explicit are when people get aggressive about it.  Once I did point out to a friend that there was a decided difference in how much I showed up for them vs. how much they showed up for me.  That was a long term friendship and her lack of support was really hurtful.  Once an old friend and roommate where things did not end well tried to make contact again and I said that in light of how we'd left things, I didn't have any interest in catching up. 

Sometimes "No" is the appropriate response to "how are you?"

[Momto6inIN]

I wasn't sure if I should post because I don't want to seem like I'm attacking anyone. But for what it's worth, this is my experience.

My oldest friend (that I've known since 2nd grade and who was a bridesmaid in my wedding and I was in hers) dumped me over politics last year. She told me she was going to do it and why, so it wasn't just an assumption on my part.

It still hurts even now a year later.

I understand that people change and grow apart. Neither one of us is the same person we were when we became friends in 2nd grade, or the same idiots we both were in high school, or the same idealistic young women we were when we stood up for each other in our weddings. But so what? To me, a person's political beliefs don't define them as a person, and they don't trump 30+ years of friendship. They are just 1 of several aspects of a person's personality that I may either identify with or find annoying. It just seems very ... petty ... and ... somewhat holier than thou ... to end a friendship because of politics.

I realize that none of this may apply to your situation. But ... just ... be sure you reeeeeeallllly want to end this friendship, kwim?

(FTR - I'm not an obnoxious person on FB, really I'm not 😉 I've asked several other friends who lean opposite me politically to be honest with me and they all say they respect the way I voice my opinion even if they disagree with it LOL)

[LucyStoner]

I've never dumped a friend over politics.  I do back away from people who are jerks about their ideology, whatever it may be.  But that's as true, if not more true for those I agree with ideologically.  

[Shoeless]

Well, I actually am dumping a few friends over politics, because they are actively and loudly advocating for laws and policies that impact my family's health and safety.  I looked the other way on some of this for years, and they were polite and didn't discuss some of their views in front of me. We had reached an "agree to disagree" point, but now they have set that aside.  It doesn't feel "petty" to distance myself from people that are willing to jeopardize my health and safety. I won't make big, angry declaration to them about the end of my trust in them. I will still be nice and kind, but I have reached my limit for what I can tolerate and ignore.

[Momto6inIN]

2 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Well, I actually am dumping a few friends over politics, because they are actively and loudly advocating for laws and policies that impact my family's health and safety.  I looked the other way on some of this for years, and they were polite and didn't discuss some of their views in front of me. We had reached an "agree to disagree" point, but now they have set that aside.  It doesn't feel "petty" to distance myself from people that are willing to jeopardize my health and safety. I won't make big, angry declaration to them about the end of my trust in them. I will still be nice and kind, but I have reached my limit for what I can tolerate and ignore.

But every political issue affects someone's health and safety. This one isn't really different in that regard, it's just more immediate. 

I see people on the right claiming that the left is deliberately screwing the economy to win an election and implement socialism. I see people on the left claiming that the right cares only about their pocketbooks and not human lives. Can we just all agree that the other side probably by and large don't actually want people to die or suffer in poverty? We all just have a different perspectives about how to solve a problem. That's really all that our differences in politics are.

I just wish my friend would have given me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not or stupid or morally inferior because I disagree with her.

[Shoeless]

16 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

But every political issue affects someone's health and safety. This one isn't really different in that regard, it's just more immediate. 

I see people on the right claiming that the left is deliberately screwing the economy to win an election and implement socialism. I see people on the left claiming that the right cares only about their pocketbooks and not human lives. Can we just all agree that the other side probably by and large don't actually want people to die or suffer in poverty? We all just have a different perspectives about how to solve a problem. That's really all that our differences in politics are.

I just wish my friend would have given me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not or stupid or morally inferior because I disagree with her.

 

But...so what that this is more immediate? The immediacy of it is part of the problem.  It's not a hypothetical debate or an philosophical exercise.       

To your second point, no. I can't agree with that. I've heard some pretty ugly things from both sides of the political spectrum that have made me realize that a vocal segment of the population really does not care what happens to people on the other side.

Politics isn't just different views in a vacuum. People vote based on those views.  Laws are made based on those votes. Money gets allocated to programs based on those votes. Money is removed from programs based on those votes.  It's not an abstraction. 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by MissLemon

[HS Mom in NC]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

Is this true for you if you see some post that shows you something really ugly about the person? Like, if you have seen the sign from the protester that says, “Sacrifice the Weak; Re-open TN.” If your friend posted it like, “Yeah! I agree! Americans have to get back to work! If some old people have to die, well then' that’s life!” This didn’t happen, BTW; I didn’t see any friends post something like this BUT I have also snoozed all the people who might possibly think this way because, if they really think that way, I don’t know how I can be friends going forward. So, IOW, it’s not, “Oh, you voted for XYZ?” That isn’t my issue. It’s when someone I am “friends” with supports a view I find repugnant. I’m not sure how I would go on being friends with that person. 

I do think my feed on FB is more echo-chamberish than it has been ever before but it’s because of this. ^^ 

Let's use a real example. I don't believe abortion is ever morally acceptable because I believe it's literally murdering an innocent child. I have FB friends who are pro-choice in any and all situations and even most self-labeled pro-lifers would murder their own child in a few circumstances.  And I have quite a few FB friends who did murder their own children. So yes, I've still been friends in spite of what I consider to be horrifically ugly things about people's views. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Momto6inIN]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

 

But...so what that this is more immediate? The immediacy of it is part of the problem.  It's not a hypothetical debate or an philosophical exercise.     

I just meant that if we throw away friendships over covid because someone has different views that affect our health and safety,  are we also going to throw away friendships based on different views of, say, funding for education? Or speed limit laws? Or zoning issues? They all affect our health and safety too. 

To your second point, no. I can't agree with that. I've heard some pretty ugly things from both sides of the political spectrum that have made me realize that a vocal segment of the population really does not care what happens to people on the other side.

There are always going to be a few jerks who hate humanity in general and are awful people. But I avoid those people and don't form even superficial friendships with them or follow them on social media. By and large, if they are decent enough people to be a part of my social circle and be called a friend at some point, then I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not one of those awful people.

Politics isn't just different views in a vacuum. People vote based on those views.  Laws are made based on those votes. Money gets allocated to programs based on those votes. Money is removed from programs based on those votes.  It's not an abstraction. 

Political opinions have consequences, that's true. But most people don't vote or support/not support laws and programs out of evil intentions. They may have different priorities than me. They may value some things more or less than I do. I can think their priorities are messed up and/or flat out wrong, but that doesn't make that person morally inferior and unworthy of my friendship because they've come to a different conclusion about their priorities.

 

 

[klmama]

47 minutes ago, StellaM said:

The last time I let things fizzle with people was when dd1 was very sick and in and out of hospital. Anyone who wasn't bothered to check in during that time (they knew), eh, I  just deleted them off my social media and didn't return any later messages/calls. 

Wow.  And here I've not always contacted people at such times because I felt like I would just be one more person to deal with at an already stressful time.  I guess I'll reconsider that approach. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Let's use a real example. I don't believe abortion is ever morally acceptable because I believe it's literally murdering an innocent child. I have FB friends who are pro-choice in any and all situations and even most self-labeled pro-lifers would murder their own child in a few circumstances.  And I have quite a few FB friends who did murder their own children. So yes, I've still been friends in spite of what I consider to be horrifically ugly things about people's views. 

Interesting. I must say, I don’t really get it. I don’t know how you can feel so definitely about a particular thing (abortion, in this case) but, behave as though it has no impact on your friendship? 

I would imagine you would struggle to call someone a friend if they actually drowned their five kids in the bathtub. That’s murdering their own children. If you literally equate abortion with murdering one’s children, then how can you possibly consider someone a friend if they are proud of their abortion and would post something like it on FB? 

I’m not talking about someone merely *having* a different view. I’m saying if their posts emphasize how XYZ is the”right” thing in their eyes. So in your example - do you have pro-choice friends who brag about how they had an abortion and they don’t regret it, it was the best option, blah blahblah? Because I don’t know how you can just be un-bothered by that if your view of abortion is so definite; that it is always the 100% wrong choice 

[Momto6inIN]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

Interesting. I must say, I don’t really get it. I don’t know how you can feel so definitely about a particular thing (abortion, in this case) but, behave as though it has no impact on your friendship? 

I would imagine you would struggle to call someone a friend if they actually drowned their five kids in the bathtub. That’s murdering their own children. If you literally equate abortion with murdering one’s children, then how can you possibly consider someone a friend if they are proud of their abortion and would post something like it on FB? 

I’m not talking about someone merely *having* a different view. I’m saying if their posts emphasize how XYZ is the”right” thing in their eyes. So in your example - do you have pro-choice friends who brag about how they had an abortion and they don’t regret it, it was the best option, blah blahblah? Because I don’t know how you can just be un-bothered by that if your view of abortion is so definite; that it is always the 100% wrong choice 

I'm not Mom in AZ, but I've been in this exact situation. I think my friend who had an abortion is wrong and made a horrible mistake. She doesn't. I'm still willing to be her friend because we have a shared history and because I know there are things about me that I'm probably wrong about too, and I'd like for my friends to extend me grace when I'm wrong about something, not cut me off.

Incidentally, this is the same friend who cut me off for political reasons.

[Jean in Newcastle]

10 minutes ago, klmama said:

Wow.  And here I've not always contacted people at such times because I felt like I would just be one more person to deal with at an already stressful time.  I guess I'll reconsider that approach. 

I can't speak for Stella, but when I crossed people after my list after a very difficult illness, it was because they didn't even contact me in the months afterward to see how I was.  If someone had contacted me even six months later and said something like "I have been waiting to contact you because I didn't want to overburden you" my response would have been very different. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have let a number of friendships just fizzle away.  No big reason other than we just stopped having as much in common.  There has only been one close friendship that I stopped getting in touch very purposefully.  That person was spreading lies (gossip) about another friend.  And when I confronted her on it she had no remorse at all even though she was telling people (incorrectly) that this mutual friend had brain cancer.  Ie.  It was such a egregious abuse, in my opinion, that I just couldn't continue to be her friend.  I just couldn't understand any situation where I wouldn't be horrified to have told people incorrectly about something that major. 

[Rosie_0801]

56 minutes ago, klmama said:

Wow.  And here I've not always contacted people at such times because I felt like I would just be one more person to deal with at an already stressful time.  I guess I'll reconsider that approach. 

 

I've got a friend who is easily overwhelmed. When they are like that, I send emojis instead of words.

[klmama]

26 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Otoh, the friends who are there, however awkwardly, during difficult times - those bonds really are strengthened.

They weren't always the people I'd anticipated being there for us either.

 

I can do awkward.  Thanks.  I appreciate you sharing this.  

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

I just meant that if we throw away friendships over covid because someone has different views that affect our health and safety,  are we also going to throw away friendships based on different views of, say, funding for education? Or speed limit laws? Or zoning issues? They all affect our health and safety too. 

To your second point, no. I can't agree with that. I've heard some pretty ugly things from both sides of the political spectrum that have made me realize that a vocal segment of the population really does not care what happens to people on the other side.

There are always going to be a few jerks who hate humanity in general and are awful people. But I avoid those people and don't form even superficial friendships with them or follow them on social media. By and large, if they are decent enough people to be a part of my social circle and be called a friend at some point, then I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not one of those awful people.

Politics isn't just different views in a vacuum. People vote based on those views.  Laws are made based on those votes. Money gets allocated to programs based on those votes. Money is removed from programs based on those votes.  It's not an abstraction. 

Political opinions have consequences, that's true. But most people don't vote or support/not support laws and programs out of evil intentions. They may have different priorities than me. They may value some things more or less than I do. I can think their priorities are messed up and/or flat out wrong, but that doesn't make that person morally inferior and unworthy of my friendship because they've come to a different conclusion about their priorities.

 

Not all risks are equal, though. Zoning issues are not in the same ballpark as measures to protect public health during a pandemic.  

Do you not change your behavior based on how you perceive risk? Because that is what this comes down to for me.  I was friends with people during a time when risk to my health seemed low.  Their behaviors and priorities, while vastly different than mine, posed low risk to my health and safety because I could take steps to mitigate the risk.  The situation is different now.  Those same philosophies now have an increased potential to impact me negatively. I can't tolerate that anymore, no matter how funny or kind these people might be. They take chances that are no longer acceptable risks in my world. 

I mean, I do think there are some people that are not worthy of my friendship, and it sounds like you do too, because in you said you don't even form superficial relationships with people that you think are awful. You apparently judged them as awful pretty quickly to rule out friendship. I took 6 years to realize someone was actually awful. If I'd known 6 years ago that I'd be in this situation, I would have made a different choice in befriending this person.  But here we are.  I don't feel like I should have to pay a friendship debt and continue a relationship with someone that makes me feel unsafe, just to spare their feelings. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by MissLemon

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

Otoh, the friends who are there, however awkwardly, during difficult times - those bonds really are strengthened.

They weren't always the people I'd anticipated being there for us either.

 

Ain't that the truth. I've been surprised by the people that have reached out during this time, and disappointed by the people that shrugged or acted annoyed that I was struggling. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes, these were previously close friends, who could have expressed the above if they'd wanted to, but never did.

Heck, one of them even now I'd have time for if she wanted to contextualise her very long period of ignoring what was happening for me at that time! I guess that's not something she wanted to do. 

Otoh, the friends who are there, however awkwardly, during difficult times - those bonds really are strengthened.

They weren't always the people I'd anticipated being there for us either.

 

I have had the same experience.

[Jentrovert]

9 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Eh, it's not that hard to send a text that says 'thinking of you'. 

 

On the other hand, I've had the experience of being so depressed/anxious/whatever you want to call it that I was unable to really take note of anything. There have been two significant time periods like that for me. One time it was known by other people. The other time, no one but my husband knew. In these instances, I was not even aware of most of what was going on with anyone. 

These were rare and extreme times. In regular times, though, it is often not my first instinct to get in touch with people. When I am going through something, it is not important to me whether or not people reach out to me. I do try my best to do so to others, because I realize it's important to many people, but I feel sure I've missed some. There have also been times that I've contributed in some way to a group message, meal, or other where the individuals contributing wasn't specified and did not contact individually.

I wouldn't cut off a friend for non-contact - I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that they may be going through stuff of their own that I don't know about (no one is obligated to inform others of their difficulties) or have other factors.  When I had the significant time mentioned above, that others knew about, some friends contacted me (left messages with my husband) and some never did. Some talked to me about it later, and some have never referred to it at all. They all care, they just responded in different ways. 

I don't know, maybe we're not really talking about the same thing. But I don't think I'd try too hard to contextualize a time period of non-contact with someone who cut me off like that. (I'd certainly apologize for hurting their feelings, though.) I'd probably just let it go, since our requirements for friendship are drastically different.

I'm not trying to argue about it. I try my best to treat each friend in the way they want to be treated, and you certainly have the right to choose your friends based on whatever criteria you want. It's just interesting to think about the differing views. 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, Quill said:

Interesting. I must say, I don’t really get it. I don’t know how you can feel so definitely about a particular thing (abortion, in this case) but, behave as though it has no impact on your friendship? 

I would imagine you would struggle to call someone a friend if they actually drowned their five kids in the bathtub. That’s murdering their own children. If you literally equate abortion with murdering one’s children, then how can you possibly consider someone a friend if they are proud of their abortion and would post something like it on FB? 

I’m not talking about someone merely *having* a different view. I’m saying if their posts emphasize how XYZ is the”right” thing in their eyes. So in your example - do you have pro-choice friends who brag about how they had an abortion and they don’t regret it, it was the best option, blah blahblah? Because I don’t know how you can just be un-bothered by that if your view of abortion is so definite; that it is always the 100% wrong choice 

I don't live with a sanitized view of humanity.  I take a more literal scriptural view of the characterization of human nature.  I do think lusting after someone in your head is morally the same as committing adultery and hating someone is morally the same as committing murder. I agree with Dr. Jordan Peterson on his views of what humanity really is like and the vast majority people really would do terrible things in certain circumstances if the believed they could get away with it or would at least choose to turn a blind eye to it. The history of the 20th century is evidence of it across cultures.   That's within all of us and unless it's addressed it waits dormant for circumstances most of us in the US have never experienced, but it's still there and the lies we tell ourselves to avoid thinking about it keep us comfortable.

 I believe women tell themselves abortion is different than drowning their 2 year old in the bathtub because they're deceived about the true nature of abortion because they need to believe it. Just like most men don't think too much about how participating in porn is actively participating in the horrific abuse and exploitation of those trafficked into the sex trade or addicts feeding addiction, usually due to emotional pain from sexual abuse as children. They tell themselves they're not active participants in the sex trade because they need to believe it, even though they're the funders and consumers of it.    But then most people are deceived about what human nature is really like when they live in a stable, functioning civilized society.

[Soror]

 I had a friend that I highly regarded but realized that I was the only one making the effort to call, message, or email. I said something to them, like hey I really value our friendship, you think you could contact me sometime, I got a lot of beating around the bush to indicate it wasn't worth the effort to them to contact me. Alrighty then, guess this friendship isn't worth it to you. Now we will have contact through a mutual group occasionally and they always act so excited to see me and talk to me, which I always find so confusing. Maybe they thought we grew too far apart and they felt it a strain. They had made a lot of changes and in a short amount of time.

I have some friends that are quite a bit different and that works fine, other friendships have not fared so well. If someone is constantly posting inflammatory articles and memes about my beliefs they aren't going to be on my friend list. I don't care for those who post things every holiday about how they are from the devil or about the evils of homeschooling. Nope. There is a way to be respectful of differences but many posting crap on FB all the time usually doesn't qualify.

I've been distancing myself from one friend. She's one always posting inflammatory articles about my beliefs on top of which really treated me like crap when I was going through a difficult time, and kept on and on me even after I apologized for inadvertently offending her. She's one that says she's just a strong minded person and let's people know what's she's thinking, I think that is her way to excuse behavior that borders on bullying at times, no way in hell am I going to talk to her about it and open up that sh*t storm. Nope. I'll be cordial when we see each other and keep it at that. And after what happened before I'll shut her down if she tries to get into it with me.

Now, I have had 2 good experiences telling other close friends about some hurts I'd experienced and they have likewise told me the same. Those were good friendships because both sides were receptive of the other's feelings and sought to rectify wrong doings, many friendships can't survive it.

Edited April 23, 2020 by soror

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I don't live with a sanitized view of humanity.  I take a more literal scriptural view of the characterization of human nature.  I do think lusting after someone in your head is morally the same as committing adultery and hating someone is morally the same as committing murder. I agree with Dr. Jordan Peterson on his views of what humanity really is like and the vast majority people really would do terrible things in certain circumstances if the believed they could get away with it or would at least choose to turn a blind eye to it. The history of the 20th century is evidence of it across cultures.   That's within all of us and unless it's addressed it waits dormant for circumstances most of us in the US have never experienced, but it's still there and the lies we tell ourselves to avoid thinking about it keep us comfortable.

 I believe women tell themselves abortion is different than drowning their 2 year old in the bathtub because they're deceived about the true nature of abortion because they need to believe it. Just like most men don't think too much about how participating in porn is actively participating in the horrific abuse and exploitation of those trafficked into the sex trade or addicts feeding addiction, usually due to emotional pain from sexual abuse as children. They tell themselves they're not active participants in the sex trade because they need to believe it, even though they're the funders and consumers of it.    But then most people are deceived about what human nature is really like when they live in a stable, functioning civilized society.

Hmm. Ok. I have a different view of humanity. I believe, as a social species, people who aren’t sociopaths (ie., most people) behave largely according to the consensus of what is normal and desirable for their culture and/or sub-culture. So, in this case, most people in the store are wearing some kind of mask or face covering because they believe, to some degree, it is either a) necessary due to the virus, b) required by authorities or c) both. Tie-ranny guy is refusing to conform with this request. I’m willing to bet he has some group - friends, people on the internet, Alex Jones, whatever - who are refusing to wear masks because they are rebelling against this new rule that they believe is a) unnecessary, b) an abuse of authority, or c) both. 

If I could go back in time one day and re-do this event at the store, I might ask the man why he wears shoes. Maybe he could consider that he already, currently is conforming to a wide variety of arbitrary rules and social conventions either because it is legally required, because it is socially normal, or both. 

ETA: I said “this case” forgetting that the “Tie-ranny” guy was in the Target facemask thread. So that is what I was referring to.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Quill

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Jentrovert said:

On the other hand, I've had the experience of being so depressed/anxious/whatever you want to call it that I was unable to really take note of anything. There have been two significant time periods like that for me. One time it was known by other people. The other time, no one but my husband knew. In these instances, I was not even aware of most of what was going on with anyone. 

These were rare and extreme times. In regular times, though, it is often not my first instinct to get in touch with people. When I am going through something, it is not important to me whether or not people reach out to me. I do try my best to do so to others, because I realize it's important to many people, but I feel sure I've missed some. There have also been times that I've contributed in some way to a group message, meal, or other where the individuals contributing wasn't specified and did not contact individually.

I wouldn't cut off a friend for non-contact - I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that they may be going through stuff of their own that I don't know about (no one is obligated to inform others of their difficulties) or have other factors.  When I had the significant time mentioned above, that others knew about, some friends contacted me (left messages with my husband) and some never did. Some talked to me about it later, and some have never referred to it at all. They all care, they just responded in different ways. 

I don't know, maybe we're not really talking about the same thing. But I don't think I'd try too hard to contextualize a time period of non-contact with someone who cut me off like that. (I'd certainly apologize for hurting their feelings, though.) I'd probably just let it go, since our requirements for friendship are drastically different.

I'm not trying to argue about it. I try my best to treat each friend in the way they want to be treated, and you certainly have the right to choose your friends based on whatever criteria you want. It's just interesting to think about the differing views. 

 

 

Do you ever initiate contact with friends?  There were two people who I stopped contacting. One has never once contacted me in the ten years since I broke off contacts. I haven’t moved or changed phone numbers.
 

The other contacted me about five years in. She wanted money.

For me it was less about them not reaching out during that time and more a realization because of my inability to contact them during that time, that the friendships really weren’t reciprocal. What hurt most to me was that apparently a friendship with me wasn’t worth even the most minimum of effort.

Note that I have deep friendships where we only get together once or twice a year. I don’t “require “ daily or weekly phone calls etc.  And I am not keeping records on who contacts whom when. But I can think of instances with every other friend when they have initiated some contact even if I can’t really remember specifics.. 

[J-rap]

I've never felt a need to just "end" a friendship.  I don't think of true friendships being like that...  I think of them ebbing and flowing maybe, but not just ending.  They might drift far apart....  but who knows, they might drift back together again.  Of course I would probably actively end one if it were a genuine crazy person, or an old boyfriend stalking me or something like that!

I do tend to have a lot of different types of friends.  Of course there are the handful that are like soul-sisters, who will be in my life forever no matter what.  But there are many others who have very different beliefs or lifestyles, but as long as I sense something solid or compassionate about them, then they're important to me and we can enjoy each other and encourage each other and learn from each other.   If I never had that sense about them, then I probably never really considered them my friends...  More just casual relationships due to situations?  Even those relationships sometimes remain active simply because of proximity, but I know they'll drift quickly if physical location changes.

[Guest]

I think what always confusing me when I don’t hear from someone in a long time, is I am not sure if they are trying to brush me off for good or if they just don’t have the bandwidth right now. I am a very low-maintenance friend. I have friends I don’t see for years but we’re still friendly when reunited. But I never want to doggedly pursue someone if they are trying to brush me off. That’s why I’m gun-shy now with the friend who couldn’t find a coffee date for a month. I don’t want to ask her now. If she truly desired to, but simply could not, she should be (well, should have been, before CV19) trying to find a date that does work. 

I had a good friend whom I liked quite a lot but she had some things going on in her life and she moved. (It is still possible for me to see her but she lives over a state line.) I saw her at the beginning of things getting squirrely for her but after that, she sort of disappeared. I would love to get together with her but now I can’t get past my insecurity that she does not want me. Whenever I think of trying to get in touch, I think, “well, but she also hasn’t tried to contact me, so, maybe this is how she wants it.” And so it goes. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

I think what always confusing me when I don’t hear from someone in a long time, is I am not sure if they are trying to brush me off for good or if they just don’t have the bandwidth right now. I am a very low-maintenance friend. I have friends I don’t see for years but we’re still friendly when reunited. But I never want to doggedly pursue someone if they are trying to brush me off. That’s why I’m gun-shy now with the friend who couldn’t find a coffee date for a month. I don’t want to ask her now. If she truly desired to, but simply could not, she should be (well, should have been, before CV19) trying to find a date that does work. 

I had a good friend whom I liked quite a lot but she had some things going on in her life and she moved. (It is still possible for me to see her but she lives over a state line.) I saw her at the beginning of things getting squirrely for her but after that, she sort of disappeared. I would love to get together with her but now I can’t get past my insecurity that she does not want me. Whenever I think of trying to get in touch, I think, “well, but she also hasn’t tried to contact me, so, maybe this is how she wants it.” And so it goes. 

And to me, that's where reciprocity comes in.  If you are the only one asking for a coffee date and she never (once things settle down and open up again) reaches out in some way for a coffee date or some other contact, then the friendship seems one-sided.  For me it's more about patterns of behavior even while I realize that some people have different personalities.  Ie. I realize that some are more spontaneous.  Some are planners.  Some are initiators and some aren't.  But even if someone isn't a natural initiator, it seems like they should be doing some of the "work" in a relationship.  ("Work" in quotes because I couldn't think of another word but of course it isn't really work.  But there is some effort.  Some agency or buy-in involved.)

[Momto6inIN]

 

52 minutes ago, Quill said:

I think what always confusing me when I don’t hear from someone in a long time, is I am not sure if they are trying to brush me off for good or if they just don’t have the bandwidth right now. I am a very low-maintenance friend. I have friends I don’t see for years but we’re still friendly when reunited. But I never want to doggedly pursue someone if they are trying to brush me off. That’s why I’m gun-shy now with the friend who couldn’t find a coffee date for a month. I don’t want to ask her now. If she truly desired to, but simply could not, she should be (well, should have been, before CV19) trying to find a date that does work. 

I had a good friend whom I liked quite a lot but she had some things going on in her life and she moved. (It is still possible for me to see her but she lives over a state line.) I saw her at the beginning of things getting squirrely for her but after that, she sort of disappeared. I would love to get together with her but now I can’t get past my insecurity that she does not want me. Whenever I think of trying to get in touch, I think, “well, but she also hasn’t tried to contact me, so, maybe this is how she wants it.” And so it goes. 

I sent a FB message to the friend who cut me off last year trying to reach out to her again. Like you, I didn't want to annoy her. And I feel insecure and keep picturing that she's somewhere rolling her eyes at my pathetic attempts to still be friends ... but I wanted to try at least 1 more time. We'll see if she responds.

[Jentrovert]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Do you ever initiate contact with friends?  There were two people who I stopped contacting. One has never once contacted me in the ten years since I broke off contacts. I haven’t moved or changed phone numbers.
 

The other contacted me about five years in. She wanted money.

For me it was less about them not reaching out during that time and more a realization because of my inability to contact them during that time, that the friendships really weren’t reciprocal. What hurt most to me was that apparently a friendship with me wasn’t worth even the most minimum of effort.

Hmmm . . yes, I do initiate contact at least sometimes. It's not all one-sided, but it is lopsided.

I rarely have an actual desire or need for contact, though. When I initiate, I do it because I realize it will be meaningful to them and/or it feels like it's my turn.

I'm more the person who anonymously  organizes donations to fill your freezer when you come home from the hospital, than the one who texts you to see how it's going.  

If the first friend contacted you now, what would your response be? 

I'm curious bc that has happened to me, where neither party reached out over several years. When we next saw each other, we just picked up as if it were yesterday. I was the last to reach out in that case, with no response, so she wasn't just pretending it was ok. And I had no issue with her non-response years before. 

I've been thinking about friendships being "worth" effort. When the friend above didn't respond, that never occurred to me. I just thought she's probably got stuff going on. I also don't feel that even close friends are obligated to share personal details or explain themselves if they drop off for a while. Now, they often do, and I have, but I don't require it to continue the friendship.

I'm probably coming off as hating to be around other people. I *do* enjoy the occasional dinner or chat. I've been just as happy during these last few weeks with nothing. My social needs are pretty much met with my immediate family + parents. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, Jentrovert said:

If the first friend contacted you now, what would your response be? 

 

I've wondered about that.  I would be kind and polite and friendly because I am that way with almost everyone, stranger or friend.  But I would be cautious with my heart. 

The deep friendships I have with those people that I only see once or twice a year are the "pick up right where we left off" kind.  We don't waste much time on small talk.  We get right to the things that matter for both of us.  But we have decades of shared history that allows us to just say a word or phrase and the other person knows exactly where we're coming from.  Perhaps not coincidentally, both of these friends moved to this area from other parts of the country partly because I was here (initially. Of course now they have other strong connections here).  It's kind of funny because we don't share much of the everyday with each other but we are there for each other in other ways. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Associating with and standing in friendship with are two different things. Surely. 

I think this is what’s not making sense to me when posters are saying they don’t stop friendships even if beliefs are repugnant. I have associated with people who hold beliefs I find repugnant. But they aren’t my friends or even my “friends” on FB. 

[PrincessMommy]

10 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 So see to me, if I think of my "associates" the same way I think of my "friends," I'm not liable to be a good friend. I definitely treat the two very differently... Not one bad and the other good, but just flat out different. 

This is where the disconnect lies. I fully expect friendships to be different than relationships with aquaintances, neighbors, and the like. Other relationships... Marriage, parent/child, sibling, Inlaw(loving in-laws)/ Dil relationship etc... Over and above friendship again. 

Others here and elsewhere include everyone with whom they are on good terms their friends. That, I believe, makes it much easier for them to say and believe that friendship comes and goes NBD. It is not the case for others... Some of us get in the weeds for and with our friends. We work it out. So to end such a relationship is a big deal. It's more like breaking up than anything else. And just as you shouldn't ghost on an emotionally complex romantic relationship, you shouldn't ghost on friends. Either walk away and MEAN it, or stay and work it out. If the other person isn't available to work it out, then they've walked away in earnest and it sucks if they've done so by ghosting! But there you are, in any case.

I agree.  I wonder if we are defining friendships differently.   If you google friendship circle or relationship circle it might help (I don't think I can post a photo here).  But ,one has an inner circle which is 'intimate" - spouse, parent, child.  Then "friendship" which is a few people - then "participation" - a few more people (I think of fellow church or organization members, co-workers, etc.) then "exchange" which they have things like hairdressers, shopkeepers, etc.  

Edited April 23, 2020 by PrincessMommy

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have been thinking about this thread because I need to sit down and write a long letter to a friend.  She's definitely a friend, but she's a difficult person for me to be a friend with.  She pushes a lot of my buttons.  I have to curate my conversation with her to those things which we do have in common because she's not someone who can see two sides to something (even if she still chooses one side).  I could ghost her.  I am actually overdue in communicating with her because this past year I went through some really tough times and honestly I just could not share those things with her.  Her inability to see more complexity in life would have made things more difficult for me.  But now I'm at a place where I can reach out and I will.  Because I still value her.  I value her kindness and her laughter and her generosity of spirit. 

[PrincessMommy]

15 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I definitely have intimate friends, and friends.

There's only ever, like, one or two people in the intimate friend circle, and for the last 22 years, it's been the same person 🙂

Friends are like...a lot of people.

Close friends, casual friends, historical friends, friends of convenience (ie your kids go to the same activity and you get along). 

And they are definitely different to acquaintances.

 

Yes,!!  exactly.  Even my circle idea is incomplete.  You are right there are friends and then... friends.  Its like trying to define "love".  It's different depending on the relationship.