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No more resale of Masterbooks


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According to the main FB group run by the publishers, resale of Masterbooks is no longer allowed... They say they already keep their materials cheap enough that you can buy them new.  Did anyone else see that? That's a pretty huge policy change.

Edited by mshanson3121
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I hadn’t seen this and I have some materials I was planning to sell. Where did you see this? I’ve looked on the Moms of Master Books FB group as well as their own web site. 

I will say, that’s pretty frustrating! 

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I would love to know because I just found out they booted all the admins from a MB Buy/Sell/Trade on facebook.... I am one of them and had no clue until someone asked if the Moms of Masterbooks group had shut their group down. I couldn't find their group on my account, but mshanson was able to find it on hers.

Edited by hands-on-mama
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Here are some of the rules on their group I found after having to log on to an old facebook account because they blocked me. I had no clue it had happened until someone asked me about the group. 

image.thumb.png.7da0d27858d647e4fbbbc95fd7ef3cb4.png

 

image.thumb.png.7e66958abff75b02ac0f353f5699953c.png

And one more....

image.png.ed51c853ea8f39e1c27dd6c25709e856.png

 

I'm disturbed that they appear to be actively looking for people to block. I promoted this company to so many people. Not anymore..... 

Edited by hands-on-mama
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I'm not a member of any of the MB groups. But facebook showed me the rules of hte "moms of masterbooks group".    This is how I read the rule:  on this facebook group, they aren't allowing used sales.

which means you find used stuff somewhere else.  If they are physical books, you can still get used market becuase of that thing in US law called first sale doctrine or something fancy like that (but I'm not a legal person).  I think all the mean is they aren't setting up used shop for you to do that.   If I were still in the market for their products, that would not bother me.  facebook showed me some "unofficial" MB groups too where people can have their fun with used market.

sorry to hear there's issue with the admins and all of that.  never fun with that.

edit to add:  in other words, I think of it as "no more resale ON the fb groups for MB" instead of "no more resale OF".   those means different things to me.  Sorry that it makes it harder to find stuff for those of you who are looking for their products.

Edited by cbollin
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2 minutes ago, cbollin said:

I'm not a member of any of the MB groups. But facebook showed me the rules of hte "moms of masterbooks group".    This is how I read the rule:  on this facebook group, they aren't allowing used sales.

which means you find used stuff somewhere else.  If they are physical books, you can still get used market becuase of that thing in US law called first sale doctrine or something fancy like that (but I'm not a legal person).  I think all the mean is they aren't setting up used shop for you to do that.   If I were still in the market for their products, that would not bother me.  facebook showed me some "unofficial" MB groups too where people can have their fun with used market.

sorry to hear there's issuewith the admins and all of that.  never fun with that.

 

They definitely don't allow it on their group, but blocking the admins of the other group just happened within the last month. The wording has definitely changed since I last looked.

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5 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

 

They definitely don't allow it on their group, but blocking the admins of the other group just happened within the last month. .

 

I'm sorry they did that to you with removing and blocking.    and I believe all of y'all that the wording is new.   it's sad.

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26 minutes ago, cbollin said:

 

I'm sorry they did that to you with removing and blocking.    and I believe all of y'all that the wording is new.   it's sad.


it would be one thing if any of our admin had promoted our group within theirs or linked anyone, but that never happened at all. No skin off my back since we aren’t using them, but it really makes me wonder about the “heart” behind their company. 

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11 hours ago, cbollin said:

I'm not a member of any of the MB groups. But facebook showed me the rules of hte "moms of masterbooks group".    This is how I read the rule:  on this facebook group, they aren't allowing used sales.

which means you find used stuff somewhere else.  If they are physical books, you can still get used market becuase of that thing in US law called first sale doctrine or something fancy like that (but I'm not a legal person).  I think all the mean is they aren't setting up used shop for you to do that.   If I were still in the market for their products, that would not bother me.  facebook showed me some "unofficial" MB groups too where people can have their fun with used market.

sorry to hear there's issue with the admins and all of that.  never fun with that.

edit to add:  in other words, I think of it as "no more resale ON the fb groups for MB" instead of "no more resale OF".   those means different things to me.  Sorry that it makes it harder to find stuff for those of you who are looking for their products.

 

What doesn't make sense with that though, is resale was never allowed in that group. 

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So I received clarification and can share pictures later. They informed me that they repeatedly asked admins to not used their trademarked name. They expected us to see one post out of hundreds of posts a day. They never contacted us directly, but they did certainly seek out our names to actively block us. Our group description clearly states that we are not an official “Master Books” group. I’m appalled by how they responded and the lack of apology from them. I will never support or recommend them again. My guess is that they have lost sales after the initial hype of their programs.

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1 hour ago, OKBud said:

That company is the smegging WORST.

Live Ed tried to "ban" people from re-selling their books too and look how well that worked out for them. 

Verrrry cute that they say they welcome constructive feedback about their products when they close all threads that even broach the airspace around the idea of criticizing anything about them or comparing them to other products.  

 

Totally AGREE! They only want feedback if it’s glowing.

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So I decided to ask MB themselves and this is what I received: 

Anna (New Leaf Publishing Group)

Good Morning!

Thanks for reaching out to us! 

We cannot prohibit the resell of physical products, although we don't encourage resell because we strive to keep our materials updated. 

The resell of digitally fulfilled products breaks our copyright and is strictly prohibited.

Have a wonderful day and God bless you!
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Nobody is going to want to hear this, but...

It seems to me thy are in a no-win position on the physical products.  I don't know how big their staff is, but supporting outdated materials is expensive, and time consuming, and distracting from ongoing work...and people who buy used materials tend to write to the company to ask for support or "free upgrades" or replacement pages for ones that were ripped out of the product they bought, used.  BTDT in my previous life.  AND if the company says "We don't support outdated materials," then it becomes an Evil Corporation.  

As for digitally fulfilled product...that is standard copyright in the US.  How likely is it that when someone sells a "used" PDF or CD track, they actually go out and remove all the copies they have on their own storage devices....and later, well, I just want to get a copy of that map I still have from that product that I "sold"--and so, it isn't really "sold"--it's copied.  

The change in policy is irritating, but I suspect that they were new at the business before they figured this out.  If people who make good materials can't make a living doing it...then they won't make good materials.  Who wins?

I might be missing something here...not claiming to be an expert on this company in particular.  It's just that I have seen the other side, again, in my previous life...and I thought maybe  that side should be thought about.

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20 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

Nobody is going to want to hear this, but...

It seems to me thy are in a no-win position on the physical products.  I don't know how big their staff is, but supporting outdated materials is expensive, and time consuming, and distracting from ongoing work...and people who buy used materials tend to write to the company to ask for support or "free upgrades" or replacement pages for ones that were ripped out of the product they bought, used.  BTDT in my previous life.  AND if the company says "We don't support outdated materials," then it becomes an Evil Corporation.  

As for digitally fulfilled product...that is standard copyright in the US.  How likely is it that when someone sells a "used" PDF or CD track, they actually go out and remove all the copies they have on their own storage devices....and later, well, I just want to get a copy of that map I still have from that product that I "sold"--and so, it isn't really "sold"--it's copied.  

The change in policy is irritating, but I suspect that they were new at the business before they figured this out.  If people who make good materials can't make a living doing it...then they won't make good materials.  Who wins?

I might be missing something here...not claiming to be an expert on this company in particular.  It's just that I have seen the other side, again, in my previous life...and I thought maybe  that side should be thought about.

 

Well, that's not what this is exactly in reference to. We confirmed that resale of physical books is not against their copyright. Also, we already now that selling pdf materials are not allowed. I'm an admin of a MB resell group on facebook. It was named as such and very apparent that we were not affiliated with the company at all. All the admin realized that they were blocked from the publisher's facebook group. We originally thought it was because they were trying to prohibit resale at first. Upon inquiring with them, we were informed that we were blocked because using their trademarked name in our group's name was trademark infringement. Had they taken the time to send us a message and let us know how they felt, we would have gladly changed the name. Instead, they acted as if we were pretending to be them and held a facebook live video referring to groups such as ours as knock off groups. It was all so bizarre. I will never buy from this company again, and I spent a ton of money with them in the past.

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The first sale doctrine.  I believe it doesn't apply to products marketed as consumable.  Is that right?  One of the reasons I prefer physical products when I can is resale value though I rarely sell.

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7 hours ago, hands-on-mama said:

 

Well, that's not what this is exactly in reference to. We confirmed that resale of physical books is not against their copyright. Also, we already now that selling pdf materials are not allowed. I'm an admin of a MB resell group on facebook. It was named as such and very apparent that we were not affiliated with the company at all. All the admin realized that they were blocked from the publisher's facebook group. We originally thought it was because they were trying to prohibit resale at first. Upon inquiring with them, we were informed that we were blocked because using their trademarked name in our group's name was trademark infringement. Had they taken the time to send us a message and let us know how they felt, we would have gladly changed the name. Instead, they acted as if we were pretending to be them and held a facebook live video referring to groups such as ours as knock off groups. It was all so bizarre. I will never buy from this company again, and I spent a ton of money with them in the past.

 

Yeah what they're doing is shady. Let's face it - almost every mainstream curriculum has a resale group on FB that uses the publisher's name - and not one of those companies are whining and complaining, blocking people and calling them out for copyright infringement. And they all have to deal with the same "outdated" issues, too. No, those other companies actually choose to support the homeschooling community. It just proves once again that MB is far less about Christian values and far more about $$$$

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13 hours ago, hands-on-mama said:

 

Well, that's not what this is exactly in reference to. We confirmed that resale of physical books is not against their copyright. Also, we already now that selling pdf materials are not allowed. I'm an admin of a MB resell group on facebook. It was named as such and very apparent that we were not affiliated with the company at all. All the admin realized that they were blocked from the publisher's facebook group. We originally thought it was because they were trying to prohibit resale at first. Upon inquiring with them, we were informed that we were blocked because using their trademarked name in our group's name was trademark infringement. Had they taken the time to send us a message and let us know how they felt, we would have gladly changed the name. Instead, they acted as if we were pretending to be them and held a facebook live video referring to groups such as ours as knock off groups. It was all so bizarre. I will never buy from this company again, and I spent a ton of money with them in the past.


 

Which video was it? Do you remember the name? The fact that they talked about it in a video is really, really bad.

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7 hours ago, Allie said:


 

Which video was it? Do you remember the name? The fact that they talked about it in a video is really, really bad.


Here is the screenshot of where they announced it. I’m not sure if it is still up. They referred to groups such as ours as knock off groups. 🤦‍♀️

 

A318FE9D-723A-498B-A0C4-C9D396F3B846.jpeg

Edited by hands-on-mama
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11 hours ago, hands-on-mama said:


Here is the screenshot of where they announced it. I’m not sure if it is still up. They referred to groups such as ours as knock off groups. 🤦‍♀️

 

A318FE9D-723A-498B-A0C4-C9D396F3B846.jpeg

 

They really need an angry face emoji. 

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11 hours ago, hands-on-mama said:


Here is the screenshot of where they announced it. I’m not sure if it is still up. They referred to groups such as ours as knock off groups. 🤦‍♀️

 

A318FE9D-723A-498B-A0C4-C9D396F3B846.jpeg

Just watched it. I’m so disappointed in this company. Randy talks about how they report any “knock-off” group that uses their name to Facebook because it’s a trademark infringement. No, I’m pretty sure that’s not legally how that works as long as you aren’t pretending you’re part of the company. He then went on to talk about how it’s the same as stealing an identity.....no.

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57 minutes ago, Allie said:

Just watched it. I’m so disappointed in this company. Randy talks about how they report any “knock-off” group that uses their name to Facebook because it’s a trademark infringement. No, I’m pretty sure that’s not legally how that works as long as you aren’t pretending you’re part of the company. He then went on to talk about how it’s the same as stealing an identity.....no.

 

They didn’t report our group, nor did they contact us to share their wishes. We might have gladly changed our name had they taken the time to contact us. Obviously they took the time to search our pages and block us. They didn’t report our group because they know that what they are saying isn’t true. It’s sad that a supposed Christian company would behave in such a manner. We are clearly not pretending to be them. It’s outlined in our group description that we are moms and not affiliated with the company at all. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

One of the admins said this in the MB group today under a question about why people were selling so many new MB books. Is this true? If you use a book orally you can not sell it without breaking copyright?

 

”We encourage families to purchase new in order to have the newest printings and so we can offer customer support. We keep costs extremely low because we know a cost is a major concern for families.

Please note: Selling material that has been used to make copies or used in another way like covering with dry erase sheets or using orally is breaking copyright. The purchase and copyright is for your family's use only. Once it extends past your family, it extends past the copyright. Please understand that this hurts the authors and we have an obligation as a publishing company to protect their work.”

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1 hour ago, Allie said:

One of the admins said this in the MB group today under a question about why people were selling so many new MB books. Is this true? If you use a book orally you can not sell it without breaking copyright?

 

”We encourage families to purchase new in order to have the newest printings and so we can offer customer support. We keep costs extremely low because we know a cost is a major concern for families.

Please note: Selling material that has been used to make copies or used in another way like covering with dry erase sheets or using orally is breaking copyright. The purchase and copyright is for your family's use only. Once it extends past your family, it extends past the copyright. Please understand that this hurts the authors and we have an obligation as a publishing company to protect their work.”

Based on the part that you didn't bold, they are correct.  The bolded part sounds like a nonconsumable book.  Of course nonconsumables can be read and resold.  That is not the same as a workbook.  Workbooks are meant to be consumable.  SImply bc it isn't written in does not mean that it can be used and then sold as unused if it was used.

Quote

My kids didn’t write in the book.
This is the single least-known and least-understood copyright rule. Unless the publisher gives permission for purchasers to make multiple copies, you must buy a separate workbook for each child. Whether your children write directly in the workbook, on notebook paper, or use an acetate overlay, a consumable workbook that has been used in any way, even if no writing appears on its pages, is still “used” and may not be reused without violating copyright law.

What about “partly used” workbooks?
Noted intellectual-property attorney Susan Spann says: “It is permissible to use the unused portions of the workbook (minus the used pages) for another child. The used portions should be discarded. Also, it is legal to give a workbook to someone else if you only used a few pages, but you should remove the used pages from the book to ensure the new owner does not violate copyright by reusing the pages.”

I want to preserve the original and resell it.
Only non-consumable textbooks may be resold or shared. You can legally make one archival copy of a copyrighted work in case the original is destroyed, but “archival copies can’t be used as ‘second copies’ or given away to another person,” says Susan Spann.

I don’t think it’s unethical to photocopy workbooks. Just because they’re sold as a consumable resource doesn’t mean they need to be used as a consumable.
The US Copyright Office states: “There shall be no copying of or from works intended to be ‘consumable.’” We can certainly have personal beliefs about this sensitive topic, but what we “feel” or “think” does not trump the law. We’re obligated to use the materials as specified by the copyright.

 

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19 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Something infectious because someone just tried to bring that same thing up on the Notgrass group too. Though there was no problem whatsoever. 

I posted this. And that poster decided it's not illegal, just immoral. [no]

But, again, it's all just online for anyone to read. People just throw things out in the world and a GRIP of people just accept it. 

I disagree.  It is not just people just throwing things out there.  Copying a copyrighted workbook and then reselling the workbook does violate copyright laws.  Whether or not it means people agree with it and do it is a completely different matter.  But, I would definitely not accuse MB of any wrong doing by pointing out that their workbooks are meant to be consumables.

https://corporate.findlaw.com/intellectual-property/photocopying-and-copyright-law.html

Quote

 

Second, the nature of the material to be copied is significant. For example, material meant to be consumed when used, such as workbooks or test answer forms, is less likely to fall under fair-use copying than a page from a newspaper or magazine article. The third factor is the amount and substantiality of the portion of the work that is copied. The sheer volume of copying is not the only consideration, as a single page from a newsletter can be as "substantial" as a whole chapter from a large book. In general, the more importance the copied portion has to the content of the whole document the less likely it is that fair use applies.

The final, and often decisive, factor is the effect of the photocopying on the potential value of the copyrighted work. This relates in part to a dollars and cents consideration of whether the market for the material is adversely affected.

 

 

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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