Adjusting project again: Which Austen/Bronte books best analyze Conformity?

[lewelma]

ETA #2

Ok, in the ongoing saga, it has finally become clear that we do really need to keep to one time period.  If we go with Lord of the Flies, then she is recommending 1984, Brave New World, and Handmaiden's tale.  This is really not OK with my ds who hates dark depressing books.  Really hates them. 

So we are going to do conformity on books like Pride and Prejudice.  She said we could pick any from Austen and the Brontes.  So which of those 10 books focuses the most on conformity but also hits this theme in different ways so ds has something to talk about.  I'm thinking Wuthering Heights would be pretty hard to do even though I love that book. Thoughts?

ETA #1: We have gotten more clarity as to what is expected.  DS needs to expand out of mob psychology because it is too mucky.  He has decided to focus on conformity. He also needs to attack the topic from 3 different lenses - so psychology (point of view of individual), political or sociological (point of view of society), and one other lens.  We have been kicking around the issue of conformity with Pride and Prejudice and Lord of the Flies, but now need more books or movies on this topic.  The teacher said it would be easier (but not required) to focus on 4 works in the same time period, which clearly LotF and P&P are not. 

Can you guys help us find books of a high level that deal with issues of conformity.  He is not that interested in state control, although he is considering Brave New World from the point of view of conformit.  The Wave and The Lottery were deemed too low level, so we need something with depth but not University level (so not War and Peace or something).

Previous post:

My ds is writing a connections paper for English where he needs to compare how 4 different works attack a theme.  He has chosen a theme of mob psychology, and we are looking for one more novel/play/ advanced short story. We have Lord of the Flies, The Crucible, and The Wave (thanks Regentrude, this is perfect). The short story, The Lottery, was deemed too simple by his English teacher, so I need something longer or more complex I guess. 

DS is not interested in governmental control; rather he wants to look at how mobs form. So not 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451.  So far he has ideas about: legitimacy of the leader, a common enemy, shunning those that don't conform, and a foundation based on logic.  The recommendations need to be high-ish level, but don't have to be classics.  Suggestions?

And thanks to those who gave us all the movies.  We are working our way through them now and they are awesome!

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by lewelma

[Terabith]

Maybe something with the French Revolution, like A Tale of Two Cities?  

[Storygirl]

Has he considered Animal Farm?

[lewelma]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Maybe something with the French Revolution, like A Tale of Two Cities?  

Interesting!  I had not even considered the French Revolution.  Do you know of a book that is easier/shorter than A Tale of Two Cities?

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Maybe something with the French Revolution, like A Tale of Two Cities?  

 

I had same idea!

 

shorter could be Scarlet Pimpernel, but I don’t know that it deals with mob aspect all that much. 

[lewelma]

Just now, Storygirl said:

Has he considered Animal Farm?

We did, but I forgot about it.  🙂 I'll go see if it has his themes. 

[Terabith]

Off the top of my head, no, because it seems like most French Revolution books are kind of long and wordy.  Let me think about it and see if something comes to mind.  

Would Animal Farm work?  It's more of an allegory, but it's not governmental control.  

 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I had same idea!

Well, I'll go look at it!  I remember years ago trying to listen to it, and the beginning was quite dense! 

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

Would Animal Farm work?  It's more of an allegory, but it's not governmental control.  

LOL, you are the second to recommend it.  It was on our list, and then the English teacher started recommending books like 1984 and Brave New World.  So we got side tracked in the wrong direction.  I've got it on my shelf.  Might be perfect as it is short!

[Pen]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Well, I'll go look at it!  I remember years ago trying to listen to it, and the beginning was quite dense! 

 

It might be a case where watching a video version then listening to a well done unabridged audio version would help. 

Scarlet Pimpernel is also very good, I just don’t so much recall mobs being featured.

I vaguely recall something that featured ... erg... my tongue tip isn’t giving me his name.  Ah ... Lavoisier!   But can’t recall name of work, not a well known book, maybe would not work for assignment. 

[Pen]

Not huge Mob, but short book: A Clockwork Orange.  Might have right themes

[Terabith]

All the young adult dystopian books I can think of (The Giver, Hunger Games, Divergent) have dystopias imposed upon them by government or higher society.  I do think 1984, Fahrenheit 451 exploit mob mentality, but it doesn't arise spontaneously in the same way it does in Crucible or The Wave.  

[Terabith]

Oh, if you do A Tale of Two Cities, seriously, just skip the first section (part 1) entirely.  It's terrible, incredibly dull, and really has absolutely no bearing on anything else in the rest of the book.  

[Terabith]

Maybe Snow Falling on Cedars or We Have Always Lived at the Castle by Shirley Jackson?

[Pen]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004FEG31M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_cbPMEbYPSS43E

The Lavoisier book

[Laura Corin]

Something on the Chinese Cultural Revolution? That was a mob movement that the Chinese Communist Party struggled to control. Red Scarf Girl is one, but I haven't read it in years. Might be too political for you.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Scarlet Pimpernel is also very good, I just don’t so much recall mobs being featured.

 

My ds loved Scarlet Pimpernel when he was younger and actually dressed up as the SP for halloween when he was about 10. 🙂 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Not huge Mob, but short book: A Clockwork Orange.  Might have right themes

Ah, too intense for this gentle soul.  

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

All the young adult dystopian books I can think of (The Giver, Hunger Games, Divergent) have dystopias imposed upon them by government or higher society.  I do think 1984, Fahrenheit 451 exploit mob mentality, but it doesn't arise spontaneously in the same way it does in Crucible or The Wave.  

Yes, he is definitely more interested in the spontaneous piece. Like why was there a run on TP. He also doesn't like dystopias and has pretty much avoided reading them. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Oh, if you do A Tale of Two Cities, seriously, just skip the first section (part 1) entirely.  It's terrible, incredibly dull, and really has absolutely no bearing on anything else in the rest of the book.  

This is VERY good to know.  I just couldn't get through part 1.

Seems like he needs to think about whether he would like to study the French, Russian, or Chinese Revolutions through literature. I'll ask him.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Maybe Snow Falling on Cedars or We Have Always Lived at the Castle by Shirley Jackson?

I will look into these.  I haven't read them. Thanks!

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004FEG31M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_cbPMEbYPSS43E

The Lavoisier book

I don't think he would like this, but I will! 

[lewelma]

27 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Something on the Chinese Cultural Revolution? That was a mob movement that the Chinese Communist Party struggled to control. Red Scarf Girl is one, but I haven't read it in years. Might be too political for you.

I'll take a look. I hadn't thought of the chinese cultural revolution.  That would fit very very well. Plus, it is in the 20th C as are our other 3 books. 

[kiwik]

That my life in the Hitler youth book?  I think you used it with your elder son.

[Chris in VA]

Because it is similar to The Lottery, probably wouldn't work, but Ray Bradbury's All Summer in a Day might be interesting. 

[Lori D.]

Seconding HeighHo's suggestion of The Ox-Box Incident.

Also possibly William Sleator's House of Stairs -- very fast YA read from the 1970s; while the 5 teens in the story are clearly in a "set-up" situation by a gov't research center, the focus of the book is on watching how they slowly conform (or not) to a sort of "mob mentality"; it's easier to see how people slip into thinking/behaving in this manner when it is "in miniature"

Maybe consider watching the Twilight Zone episode of "The Monsters on Maple Street" (or, you can sign up for a free trial at Hulu to watch)

I know nothing about this one, but it sounds fascinating: Crane Pond (Frances) -- a long novel; fictionalized story of the only Salem Witch trial judge to later apologize for his role; it looks like it might be from the perspective on how an individual is drawn into mob mentality.

Perhaps include nonfiction:
- a short non-fiction work on the Salem Witch Trials
- The Crowd in History: A Study of Popular Disturbances in France and England, 1730-1848 -- almost 300 pages, so not short

ETA -- PS
Lord of the Flies is a great choice -- I *just* finished that one with my co-op class this week.

There is the immediate, unspoken isolating of Piggy and making Piggy the object of scorn/disregard by almost all of the children, right off the bat. And the book shows multiple individual reasons why the children slide into savagery and then mob mentality:
Jack = wants power
Roger = a sadist
Samneric, the twins = forced out of fear being hurt
other boys = want meat, or like the thrill of hunting pigs, or just "go with the flow" and join unthinkingly (almost like they need the instinctive "creature comfort" of a pack)

Edited April 18, 2020 by Lori D.

[lewelma]

Gosh guys, so many good options!  I'll get him to watch the Ox-bow incident today. Yesterday we watched the Wave and the Twilight Zone episode.  

My main concern is that this is a 12th grade paper, and most of the works ds and I are considering are classified as 'young adult fiction.' I'm not sure if that is going to be a problem for the teacher.  Here in NZ, his university entrance is based on national exams and assessments (not a transcript).  So this paper is a national assessment with very strict criteria. His 'teacher' is someone who facilitates homeschool/rural/health kids to achieve these assessments. So I'll give her a list tomorrow and see what she says.

Possible Themes: : legitimacy of the leader, a common enemy, shunning those that don't conform, and a foundation based on logic.

Possible Works:

The Crucible (Salem Witch Trials)

The Wave (Youth mob - indoctrination)

The Lord of the Flies (Youth mob - isolation)

Tale of two cities (French Revolution)

Animal Farm (Russian Revolution)

The Red Scarf Girl (Chinese Cultural Revolution)

Ox Bow Incident (Wild West mob)

Julius Caesar (Roman mob)

 

[lewelma]

11 hours ago, kiwik said:

That my life in the Hitler youth book?  I think you used it with your elder son.

Good point.  Unfortunately, I've lent that book out and now we are in lockdown. 😞 

[lewelma]

11 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

Because it is similar to The Lottery, probably wouldn't work, but Ray Bradbury's All Summer in a Day might be interesting. 

I'll bring up both short stories. She said she would consider them in the context of the full reading list. 

[lewelma]

8 hours ago, Florimell said:

There is the mob scene in To Kill a Mockingbird when the Cunninghams want to harm Tom Robinson.

There is a mob scnene (a charivari) in Hardy's Far From the Madding Crowd as well where effigies of the mayor and a former lover, are paraded through the streets on a donkey by a noisy crowd when rumours of their prior relationship surface.

Thanks for these.  He has read To Kill a Mockingbird, and although he likes it, he is more interested in a full book about mob formation if possible.  As for Far from the Madding Crowd - I'll check it out.  I'm not a fan of Hardy, but that doesn't mean ds won't be.  🙂  

[Carol in Cal.]

I still think Julius Caesar would be great for this.  That mob forms, and then Marc Antony says, Friends!  Romans! Countrymen!  Lend me your ears! etc. and basically turns them against what they had originally formed for.

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Also possibly William Sleator's House of Stairs --

Thanks Lori!  I'm not sure he can handle the House of Stairs.  I've not read it, but it sounds scary!  Do the kids for a mob or turn on each other?  What I read on Wikipedia, it looked like mostly getting into each kid's head independently.

As for Crane Pond, I think we will do The Crucible instead as the teacher has already agreed to that one. 

He watched the Monsters Twilight Zone last night and found it both scary and very believable. 

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I still think Julius Caesar would be great for this.  That mob forms, and then Marc Antony says, Friends!  Romans! Countrymen!  Lend me your ears! etc. and basically turns them against what they had originally formed for.

I've put it on the list I'm sending her tomorrow.  Last week, I sent her a list with it on it, and she never mentioned it.  She suggested 1984 and Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 (which weren't on our list). I'm not sure she understood at the time ds's themes, because ds was quite vague about it as we hadn't started watching the movies yet.  But I am also worried that there is some list that he has to pick 3 books from and then only the 4th can be 'off list.' She has sent us a 'senior reading list' but I need to ask if ds has to pick off of it.  I didn't think so. 

[KungFuPanda]

Handmaid's Tale?  It's not that long.

[lewelma]

39 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Handmaid's Tale?  It's not that long.

I loved that book, but I don't think my ds can actually understand it.  The themes/situations may be just too adult. 

[Lori D.]

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

Thanks Lori!  I'm not sure he can handle the House of Stairs.  I've not read it, but it sounds scary!  Do the kids for a mob or turn on each other?  What I read on Wikipedia, it looked like mostly getting into each kid's head independently.

As for Crane Pond, I think we will do The Crucible instead as the teacher has already agreed to that one. 

He watched the Monsters Twilight Zone last night and found it both scary and very believable. 

Hmmm... I really don't know what to say, since I don't know how sensitive your DS is. I personally think Lord of the Flies (LotF) is VASTLY more disturbing, and "gets into the heads" of the characters much more than House of Stairs (HoS). LotF definitely has mob mentality of acting on the urge to hurt, or in getting swept up in the moment. 

HoS is a short, fast read, so there's not a lot of depth of character building, and things unfold and conclude pretty quickly. I've only read the "look inside" pages of The Wave, but House of Stairs seems similar. 

HoS is not so much of a mob mentality, but the basic premise is that there is a machine that dispenses the only food, and it "trains" the kids into more and more elaborate, almost choreographed actions where they have to work together in order for the machine to dispense food. Once they have this figured out, one day the machine no longer dispenses food no matter what they do. They start getting hunger, which leads to tempers flaring. When one kid slaps another (probably as much out of hunger as anger), the machine dispenses loads of food. Now they realize that to get food, they will have to do nasty things to one another. So hunger drives them to some extent, but it's also clear that there is choice, and, like Lord of the Flies, each of the kids has weaknesses or meanness that become magnified due to the situation. The one "mob"-like scene comes late in the book when 2 of the kids have decided to stop participating when they realize what it means (in essence "loss of the soul" and descent into becoming very nasty), and the other 3 try to hit and bully them back into participating because the machine isn't working without all 5 of them participating.

Don't know if that helps or not, LOL.

I'll just add: if he was disturbed ty the Twilight Zone episode, I will sound a caution about Lord of the Flies -- it is powerfully written, and (I think) deeply disturbing. I just finished doing LotF with my co-op class, and they are all pretty "sturdy" students, and I think some of them came out of that book a bit stunned. So, just a heads up for your DS. It is probably the most perfect book, however, for exploring his particular choice of topic.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Lori D.

[lewelma]

12 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Don't know if that helps or not, LOL.

Yes!  It is very helpful. Thanks, Lori!

We just got one third of the way through 1993 Crucible movie this morning and abandoned it.  Way way WAY too intense.  We will instead try to read the play as a family, each taking a separate part.  I think part of the problem is the visuals.  Next up is the Ox Bow Incident, and since it was made in the 40s, I think we will be OK.

DS has read Lord of the Flies many years ago and liked it then. Maybe he has gotten more sensitive over time as he realizes how real things can be, or maybe he is just having trouble with the images of moving pictures. 

I'll go look at House of Stairs, because from your description, it sounds fascinating. 

We are also starting to kick around how someone gets indoctrinated.  In The Wave and Lord of the Flies, we watch the indoctrination process, but in The Crucible and Fahrenheit 451 the people are already indoctrinated.  Started us thinking.  Do you know any other books/movies where we can see the indoctrination process in action?

Edited April 19, 2020 by lewelma

[Lori D.]

34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

...ll go look at House of Stairs, because from your description, it sounds fascinating. 

It is pretty much the idea of applying Pavlovian behavioral modification techniques to humans. I remember reading it as a teen and it really struck a chord for me.
 

Quote

We are also starting to kick around how someone gets indoctrinated.  In The Wave and Lord of the Flies, we watch the indoctrination process, but in The Crucible and Fahrenheit 451 the people are already indoctrinated.  Started us thinking.  Do you know any other books/movies where we can see the indoctrination process in action?

I'll think on that one, and see if I come up with anything...
 

34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

...We just got one third of the way through 1993 Crucible movie this morning and abandoned it.  Way way WAY too intense.  We will instead try to read the play as a family, each taking a separate part.  I think part of the problem is the visuals...

DS has read Lord of the Flies many years ago and liked it then. Maybe he has gotten more sensitive over time as he realizes how real things can be, or maybe he is just having trouble with the images of moving pictures. 

Good thought of switching to "reader theater" style. But if The Crucible was too intense, then DON'T watch the movie of LotF! 

Off topic for what you're looking for, just me thinking here... a lot of these fiction ideas are from a similar angle (dystopic worlds). While I think it's probably too disturbing, and you'd need to go with nonfiction, I'm wondering about real-life situations, like POW camps where prisoners get "pitted against one another" to survive; or mob religious persecution situations; or the mob lynchings of blacks in the U.S. Deep South... 

Also, I love your DS's idea to explore -- but perhaps it is turning out to be more intense of a topic to read about and explore than his sensitive soul can handle...?? BEST wishes for finding what works well for a topic and works to delve into the topic! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Lori D.

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Off topic for what you're looking for, just me thinking here... a lot of these fiction ideas are from a similar angle (dystopic worlds). While I think it's probably too disturbing, and you'd need to go with nonfiction, I'm wondering about real-life situations, like POW camps where prisoners get "pitted against one another" to survive; or mob religious persecution situations; or the mob lynchings of blacks in the U.S. Deep South... 

Also, I love your DS's idea to explore -- but perhaps it is turning out to be more intense of a topic to read about and explore than his sensitive soul can handle...?? BEST wishes for finding what works well for a topic and works to delve into the topic! Warmest regards, Lori D.

I very much appreciate your thoughts.  DS loves movies more than books (sigh), and to get him excited about reading a bunch of books, we are starting to get into the topic by way of movies.  But he is struggling with the intensity of the visuals in the movies.  He has no issues discussing real-life situations, that is part of why he is interested in this topic.  But he apparently likes *discussing* NOT *watching*.  I'm just coming to realize this.  So moving forward, we only watch tame movies, but we can read more difficult books and discuss difficult topics.  Just no visuals.  He is really loving this topic, and we have only been doing it for 3 days.  So far so good!  

[Lori D.]

13 minutes ago, lewelma said:

... DS loves movies more than books (sigh), and to get him excited about reading a bunch of books, we are starting to get into the topic by way of movies.  But he is struggling with the intensity of the visuals in the movies.  He has no issues discussing real-life situations, that is part of why he is interested in this topic.  But he apparently likes *discussing* NOT *watching*.  I'm just coming to realize this.  So moving forward, we only watch tame movies, but we can read more difficult books and discuss difficult topics.  Just no visuals.  He is really loving this topic, and we have only been doing it for 3 days.  So far so good!  

Gotcha. 😄 

Hope the books go over well, and yield rich discussion!
 

[Lori D.]

PS -- while online surfing for ideas for you, I ran across this short article, that was very interesting for the reasons people gave for joining White Supremacy groups (sort of falls along the lines of crowd thinking/behavior...) Might fight in with The Wave...

 

PS #2 -- And if you enjoyed discussing that Twilight Zone episode, you might skim through the summaries of other episodes -- lots of great stuff to discuss in some of those episodes! (Some of those teleplays were written by Ray Bradbury, incidentally... 😉 )

Edited April 19, 2020 by Lori D.

[lewelma]

We have gotten more clarity as to what is expected.  DS needs to expand out of mob psychology because it is too mucky.  He has decided to focus on conformity. He also needs to attack the topic from 3 different lenses - so psychology (point of view of individual), political or sociological (point of view of society), and one other lens.  We have been kicking around the issue of conformity with Pride and Prejudice and Lord of the Flies, but now need more books or movies on this topic.  The teacher said it would be easier (but not required) to focus on 4 works in the same time period, which clearly LotF and P&P are not. 

Can you guys help us find books of a high level that deal with issues of conformity.  He is not that interested in state control, although he is considering Brave New World from the point of view of conformity.  The Wave and The Lottery were deemed too low level, so we need something with depth but not University level (so not War and Peace or something).

Edited April 21, 2020 by lewelma

[Pen]

May not be considered high level enough, but does deal with conformity:  The Chocolate Wars; The Giver

1984 seems to me to fit Conformity theme

A Midsummer Night’s Dream

Emma

Wuthering Heights

The Scarlet Letter

Huckleberry Finn

The Prince and the Pauper

 

 

[J-rap]

I'll be thinking of specific books, but I think the period of WWII in Germany would be a great landscape for the subject of conformity.

[PeterPan]

Late to the party, but have you seen The Prisoner? 

 

[EKS]

Never Let Me Go (Ishiguro) may work.  I don't know if it's at a "high" enough level or not.  We were assigned it in a graduate course I took, and it has been the subject of published academic papers.

[Sneezyone]

Maybe a play? A Raisin in the Sun would provide a complimentary (and yet VERY different) lens through which to view conformity. I'd say it would complement Lord of the Flies well. It's short but the young, old, religious and not, perspectives of the characters WRT whether/how to conform to social norms are very different. Conformity isn't one of the central themes but it's definitely an undercurrent--less explicit. Or, gosh, does it have to be fiction? What about reading a non-fiction text on the Stanford Prison Experiment or something? Like Obedience to Authority (Milgram) Or maybe watch this movie too? https://smile.amazon.com/Stanford-Prison-Experiment-Billy-Crudup/dp/B013W7LTL6/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=stanford+prison+experiment+kits&qid=1587482068&sr=8-1-fkmr1 The (research) book is heavy and dense. The one I mentioned is not and the play is short.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Lori D.]

On 4/21/2020 at 1:08 AM, lewelma said:

... He has decided to focus on conformity. He also needs to attack the topic from 3 different lenses - so psychology (point of view of individual), political or sociological (point of view of society), and one other lens.  We have been kicking around the issue of conformity with Pride and Prejudice and Lord of the Flies, but now need more books or movies on this topic.  The teacher said it would be easier (but not required) to focus on 4 works in the same time period, which clearly LotF and P&P are not. 

Can you guys help us find books of a high level that deal with issues of conformity.  He is not that interested in state control, although he is considering Brave New World from the point of view of conformity...

Lord of the Flies is set towards the end of WW2 so: English boys, early/mid 1940s. Here are a few ideas that fall within 30 years on either side of that:

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (Kesey) -- setting: U.S.; mid 1970s, psychological conformity/nonconformity in a psychiatric ward ETA: NOT for a younger/sensitive high school student

Black Like Me (Griffin) -- nonfiction, so maybe not a fit; white journalist in the late 1950s disguised himself as black and lived/traveled in the US Deep South and experienced racism; he also saw a sort of social conformity, with many blacks conforming to white expectations of them to prevent becoming targeted, and then being themselves when in only all-black society

Babbitt (Lewis) -- setting: U.S.; early 1920s/post WWI (written in 1920s) -- "satirical novel about American culture/society that critiques the vacuity of middle class life and the social pressure toward conformity" -- Wikipedia

The Loud Silence of Francis Greene (Cushman) -- setting: U.S.; 1950s during McCarthyism; U.S. (written in 2006) -- oops, scratch that -- upper elementary level book 😉 
 

PS -- side note:
A movie, not a book, but a really adult look at people conforming out of fear of the Stazi (East German secret police during the Cold War) -- AND the redemptive quality of beauty and the arts -- is The Lives of Others. NOT one for your DS, but you might find this one interesting.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Lori D.

[Pen]

 

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Harper Lee To Kill a Mockingbird

 

That would be a good one.

 

[ikslo]

I realize you’ve moved away from mob mentality, but in case he wants to explore that further later, I took a class at UMCP that centered on mob mentality.  Professor was Howard Smead, and the book we used was his: Blood Justice.  He has a website with some of his papers/thoughts, I believe.  Not novels/lit so much, but definitely an interesting rabbit hole.

Edited April 21, 2020 by ikslo