Math after Calc BC

[Hadley]

I’m hoping someone here will have a fresh idea.  My son is a junior who is finishing up AP Calculus BC this semester.  He is also enrolled in a Statistics dual enrollment class at our local community college. He has a high A in each class, and will take the Calc AP exam this year.

So, for next year’s math (senior year), he wants to take multi variable calculus ( I think that’s what it’s called...I was an English major!).  The problem is, even if he makes a 5 on the AP exam, our community college wants him to repeat calculus. He even has a perfect SAT Math II score that they won’t consider. He has met with several people and tried begging, but it seems to be a sticking point for them.  It’s odd, because many four-year colleges would place him in multi variable ...

So, this kid loves math, and we can’t do a math-free senior year.  He’s also maxing out on physics and computer science classes just to get in more math!  Any ideas?  I know that there are many parents of mathy kids out there who took classes above and beyond this when they were in high school.  Any ideas for courses?  Colleges that might be open to online dual enrollment?

Thanks in advance!  

Edited to change name of class!  I’m in unfamiliar territory!

Edited April 17, 2020 by Hadley

[8filltheheart]

Has he asked if he can take their cal 2 final to demonstrate mastery? (I would honestly get involved at this pt bc that is a pretty ridiculous stance for a CC.)

I had to work with  4 yr university by making an appointment with the registrar and taking in a transcript and test scores (he had 8th grade scores exceeding their admissions for freshman). They did change their position and let him take the courses we wanted.

[Hadley]

They have given us a solid no🙁.  He also has a near-perfect SAT in addition to the SAT Math II.  Beyond frustrating...can’t understand why they won’t let the kid take the class?  We do have a four year university semi-close that we will pivot to next.  I just wanted to make sure there weren’t any more fun ideas out there that I was missing!

Thanks for your feedback.  I’m so going to miss the days of homeschool.  It’s so much harder to get access to an education in schools 🤣

[EKS]

My son has done two years of statistics since completing BC in 10th grade.  And I'm happy to report that he's found his true love ❤️

Edited April 17, 2020 by EKS

[Hadley]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

My son had done two years of statistics since completing BC in 10th grade.  And I'm happy to report that he's found his true love ❤️

I love it when they find their purpose!  My son likes stats, but is not in love.  He feels that lovin’ feelin’ for calculus.  😊

[8filltheheart]

I'd contact the 4 yr school. Our ds was able to graduate with multiple 300 level math and physics courses (and had the highest grades in the classes as a 16 and 17 yr old.)  🙂

[Hadley]

7 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I'd contact the 4 yr school. Our ds was able to graduate with multiple 300 level math and physics courses (and had the highest grades in the classes as a 16 and 17 yr old.)  🙂

I think that’s the next plan.  Thanks!

Way to go to your son by the way!  I love what kids can do when we let them try.

[daijobu]

Has your son taken counting and probability or number theory?  (Also sometimes called discrete math.)  If he's interested in CS, these courses will be a big help.  

The Math II SAT Subject Test does not cover calculus, so I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept that in lieu of their calculus course.  But he scored a 5 on AP calculus BC?  That's usually good enough to pass out of college intro calc, though some students opt to retake it anyway.  

[Hadley]

9 hours ago, daijobu said:

Has your son taken counting and probability or number theory?  (Also sometimes called discrete math.)  If he's interested in CS, these courses will be a big help.  

The Math II SAT Subject Test does not cover calculus, so I'm not surprised they wouldn't accept that in lieu of their calculus course.  But he scored a 5 on AP calculus BC?  That's usually good enough to pass out of college intro calc, though some students opt to retake it anyway.  

Thank you so much for these ideas.  I hear you on the SAT Math II not covering calculus.  We have just been throwing everything at this problem that we can! 

Discrete math is on his radar, and he will  probably go that route in the fall.

I have a question about Counting and Probability.  He has played with the AoPS text, but it’s been several years ago.  He actually does have a university that is working with him to take an upper level computer science course and he also has two professional certifications (Java and C+? ).  Would Counting and Probability be a step backwards in math?  I know nothing about math after calculus 😬.

There is a good chance that the uni where he has taken comp courses will work with us on multivariable.  Frankly, it is just SO MUCH more expensive than the community college that I was hoping we wouldn’t have to go that route yet.  So it goes.

Thanks again for all your help!

Edited April 17, 2020 by Hadley

[Hadley]

25 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Our experience is that AP Calc BC is missing a unit or two in comparison with SUNY Calc 1 and 2.  Some of the 4 year colleges want the repeat to pick up those units and strengthen skills if the student is continuing on in math.   I'd suggest a retake at a higher level -- perhaps  the 4 year college you are working with has an honors section or a section just for math majors. 

Funny you mentioned that.  He discovered these holes in AP Calc at the beginning of the year and has filled them on his own.  That’s why I wish they would just let him test.  I can’t figure out why they left so many topics out of the AP sequence.  He has found great online higher level math courses that he has worked through, but he is trying to figure out a way that he can actually earn credit for his work.  

Thanks for your reply!

[Hadley]

Thanks all for your ideas.  I think we shall just run with the 4 year university and go with what they recommend next.  I do appreciate all of the experience that is on this board!

[Hadley]

I’m coming back one time to muse...I have decided that the greatest homeschool mistake that I made with this kid was not letting him progress as he was ready with math.  I am so impressed with so many of you and envy your wisdom in allowing your children to walk their own paths.

I made my son repeat Algebra I with different texts from fifth through seventh grade, convinced that he shouldn’t move past Algebra I in junior high.  I caved and allowed him to take a geometry course in eighth grade.

This year, he has been taking Calc BC and Stats at the CC, and never spends more than thirty minutes a day tops on class work.  He spends hours working through online courses and released practice math tests from universities.  He happily sniffs math out, and fills him time productively.  He has learned a ton this way, but I still wish that I had not insisted on such a traditional math sequence. I wish I had sought out university courses earlier...

All that to say good job to those of you who trusted your kids and trusted your gut!  Live and learn,I guess.  With my next pretend kid, all the rails will be removed!

 

[SanDiegoMom]

https://spcs.stanford.edu/programs/stanford-pre-collegiate-university-level-online-math-physics

You could check this out if you want another option.  Online and more affordable than the Stanford Online High School. 

[8filltheheart]

I'm confused.  If the CC offers cal ab and bc, is it different than cal 1 and cal 2?  Why did your ds opt to take the AP version at a CC? (I have never heard of a CC offering AP classes before.) It is strange that they offer a class that they themselves don't accept as a pre-req in their own sequencing.  

In terms of the repeating courses discussion, I think this is highly dependent on the individual student and their absolute strengths.  My sons would have been frustrated and bored if they had been required or expected to repeat courses.   They were incredibly strong math and science students ready to move on.  My current high school sr is a strong student, but also very anxious and extremely introverted.  She is trying to decide what she wants to do.  Part of her wants to test out.  Part of her wants to repeat bc it will be easy and give her time to tansitionto a college atmosphere.  She is going to have to make a decision soon.

Edited April 17, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[Hadley]

49 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I'm confused.  If the CC offers cal ab and bc, is it different than cal 1 and cal 2?  Why did your ds opt to take the AP version at a CC? (I have never heard of a CC offering AP classes before.) It is strange that they offer a class that they themselves don't accept as a pre-req in their own sequencing.  

 

I’ve been all over the road and unclear.  He took AP Calc BC through Pennsylvania Homeschoolers.  He’s taking Stats through our local CC.

My son has had great responses from professors at the local four year university this morning.  I’m greatly encouraged by their quick replies to his email.  Things are working out!

Again, thanks for everyone’s help in figuring this out.

[Lilaclady]

Counting and probability is not necessarily a step back depending on what is covered. My dd did AOPS intermediate counting and probability and Number theory and then took both  dual enrolled classes at GT. The intermediate Number theory was about 2/3 of the GT 2000 level course and the probability was different but a 3000 level course. 

[daijobu]

15 hours ago, Hadley said:

 

I have a question about Counting and Probability.  He has played with the AoPS text, but it’s been several years ago.  Would Counting and Probability be a step backwards in math?  I know nothing about math after calculus 😬.

 

 

C&P is not backwards, but more of a lateral move.  It's a completely different topic from calculus, and one that is probably more important for CS than calculus. 

If he's already familiar with introductory probability theory, then he might learn more from the AoPS Intermediate C&P book.  

If already knows basic modular arithmetic, then the AoPS intro NT book will probably be too easy.  There isn't an intermediate NT book, but there is an online class that will cover more advanced NT topics.  

[daijobu]

13 hours ago, Hadley said:

I made my son repeat Algebra I with different texts from fifth through seventh grade, convinced that he shouldn’t move past Algebra I in junior high.  I caved and allowed him to take a geometry course in eighth grade.

 

 

 

Argh.  People make these broad generalizations about when students are "ready for algebra," like all students are robots marching in lock step.  A quick google search turned up this bit of advice:  

Linda Gojak from the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics says, “My experience, both as a student and as a teacher, leads me to believe that we do more harm than good by placing students in a formal algebra course before they are ready, and few students are truly ready to understand the important concepts of algebra before eighth grade. Many students should wait until ninth grade.”  This is because an adolescent’s brain often hasn’t had time to develop in abstract reasoning yet.  

Few students are ready for algebra in middle school?  

 

[SanDiegoMom]

7 hours ago, daijobu said:

 

Argh.  People make these broad generalizations about when students are "ready for algebra," like all students are robots marching in lock step.  A quick google search turned up this bit of advice:  

Linda Gojak from the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics says, “My experience, both as a student and as a teacher, leads me to believe that we do more harm than good by placing students in a formal algebra course before they are ready, and few students are truly ready to understand the important concepts of algebra before eighth grade. Many students should wait until ninth grade.”  This is because an adolescent’s brain often hasn’t had time to develop in abstract reasoning yet.  

Few students are ready for algebra in middle school?  

 

I have twins -- my son was ready for algebra between 2nd and 3rd grade. My daughter is hitting her stride in Algebra in 8th!  She was SUCH a concrete thinker.  They are so different! 

[Hadley]

9 hours ago, daijobu said:

 

C&P is not backwards, but more of a lateral move.  It's a completely different topic from calculus, and one that is probably more important for CS than calculus. 

If he's already familiar with introductory probability theory, then he might learn more from the AoPS Intermediate C&P book.  

If already knows basic modular arithmetic, then the AoPS intro NT book will probably be too easy.  There isn't an intermediate NT book, but there is an online class that will cover more advanced NT topics.  

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer this.  I’ll have him look into it!

[3andme]

I was curious about your situation as some states have mandated credit for AP classes for scores of 3 and above for public colleges and universities. Apparently, Virginia has not mandated credit but it looks like the Virginia Community College system should give credit for the AP Calc class (see below from Board of Governors website).  What does the AP credit policy show for the particular community college? I would imagine they need to abide by that policy.

https://go.boarddocs.com/va/vccs/Board.nsf/Public (see Section 5 - Educational Programs)

5.6.5.1 Credit for Prior Learning (C)

Upon receipt of official test scores, all Virginia community colleges shall accept a score of three (3) and higher for Advanced Placement (AP) courses, a score of four (4) or higher for higher level International Baccalaureate (IB) courses, a score of five (5) or higher for standard level International Baccalaureate (IB) courses, a score of fifty (50) or higher on CLEP courses, and scores of C or better for Cambridge Advanced (A/AS) examinations when the equivalent course is offered by the college. The colleges assume no responsibility regarding the acceptance of Credit for Prior Learning by other institutions to which the student may transfer.

[Hadley]

3 hours ago, 3andme said:

I was curious about your situation as some states have mandated credit for AP classes for scores of 3 and above for public colleges and universities. Apparently, Virginia has not mandated credit but it looks like the Virginia Community College system should give credit for the AP Calc class (see below from Board of Governors website).  What does the AP credit policy show for the particular community college? I would imagine they need to abide by that policy.

https://go.boarddocs.com/va/vccs/Board.nsf/Public (see Section 5 - Educational Programs)

5.6.5.1 Credit for Prior Learning (C)

Upon receipt of official test scores, all Virginia community colleges shall accept a score of three (3) and higher for Advanced Placement (AP) courses, a score of four (4) or higher for higher level International Baccalaureate (IB) courses, a score of five (5) or higher for standard level International Baccalaureate (IB) courses, a score of fifty (50) or higher on CLEP courses, and scores of C or better for Cambridge Advanced (A/AS) examinations when the equivalent course is offered by the college. The colleges assume no responsibility regarding the acceptance of Credit for Prior Learning by other institutions to which the student may transfer.

Thank you for this!  I didn’t know that Virginia had a blanket policy for their community colleges.  This gives me something to go back with.  Honestly though, we may just stick with the four year because the professors have been so amazing and are generally excited to have my son in class.  That’s not the feeling that we have gotten at all from our community college administration.

[Karen Nickerson]

AP Calculus exams are one way to earn college credits.   Another strategy is to skip over the AP Exams and have those students who finish AP Calculus BC (Calculus 2) jump into Multivariable Calculus (or higher) via online courses that are accredited.  I personally don't like investing all of this pressure into a single exam - my kid just melts on that kind of pressure.  So I had her jump forward past AP Calculus into the higher courses during her senior year. Our goal is not to get credit for Calculus AB and BC, just to have her skip Calculus altogether so she starts more advanced at university next year.

Here are some that seem comparable:   

https://netmath.illinois.edu/college/math-241

https://www.distancecalculus.com/multivariable/

https://und.edu/academics/online/enroll-anytime/math265.html

She is currently in Distance Calculus Multivariable Calculus now and doing great!  These aren't free, but basically all the same price.