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Thoughts on summer / fall


BlsdMama
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8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

My uncle a ~65 YO white male has been in the hospital on/off a vent for the last two and a half weeks. Doctors are hopeful he will come off the vent in the next week. He was sick for 4-5 days before my aunt insisted that he go to the hospital. Those people who need to be hospitalized are typically there for quite some time.

I'm sorry to hear this. I hope your uncle is able to come off the vent soon and make a full recovery.

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Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

I haven't seen anyone here advocating zero exposure. I HAVE seen people waiting for adequate testing and contact tracking capacity.

I don’t expect the lock down level of quarantine to extend until there is a vaccine.  I don’t expect any semblance of normal to return until there’s a vaccine.  I figure things will be different, modified to varying degrees, until people feel safe. You can open the the theater, or Disney, but you can’t compel people to go.  

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2 minutes ago, meena said:

. Not everyone will do that (my MIL is like that), but many will because we are being taught during this time to take having this sickness seriously. 

My in-laws too but if people with their attitude test positive in my country of origin, they would get fined and/or jailed, and their photo would be in the news on social media. So widespread availability of testing (now it is still selective) would help for my country of origin. 

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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

We are an opera/ballet/theater-going, gymnastics and cheer-competition attending, track and field loving family. We see these as 100% necessary for education purposes. We're also willing to delay these activities for however long we need to whether that's this fall or next spring.  My kids have had LOTS of experiences of this nature and that will continue when its safe to do so.

How is "safe" determined? I think that is where there is going to be a lot of disagreement or difficulty in coming up with a definitive standard.

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7 minutes ago, meena said:

How is "safe" determined? I think that is where there is going to be a lot of disagreement or difficulty in coming up with a definitive standard.


It’s determined by each individual/family based on their risk tolerance or need. There’s nothing stopping people right now from socializing in homes. Honestly, I’m very close to staying mum while they Darwin themselves right out of the equation. We all have choices. I’ll continue talking to my family/friends in the hope they’ll make different choices. We are very big on travel but I don’t anticipate a major trip until 2021/22. I am risk averse.

Edited by Sneezyone
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4 minutes ago, Cnew02 said:

I don’t expect the lock down level of quarantine to extend until there is a vaccine.  I don’t expect any semblance of normal to return until there’s a vaccine.  I figure things will be different, modified to varying degrees, until people feel safe. You can open the the theater, or Disney, but you can’t compel people to go.  

This has been a point of discussion in our house. Not if we will go or not, but will people in general. We've specifically talked about WDW. When the parks open back up, who will go? How many people will go?

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1 hour ago, meena said:

Good teachers know how to assess where students are realistically at. This is true even outside of the current circumstances. When I taught in a public school, I knew not all of my students were operating at their grade ability level even when they had made decent grades the previous years. I spent the first few weeks of class doing review and getting a feel for how the students were performing. I can imagine teachers this fall will spend plenty of time on review and assessment, knowing that this last quarter of the school year was not ideal. It would be great if schools could set up tutoring and/or small group learning protocols when school starts back for students who passed/earned participation grades during this time but really didn't learn all that much.

I think review and tutoring is going to be necessary. One local school district is reporting that 75% of students have stopped attending their virtual classes and are not turnining in any assignments.

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1 minute ago, mom2scouts said:

I think review and tutoring is going to be necessary. One local school district is reporting that 75% of students have stopped attending their virtual classes and are not turnining in any assignments.

 

Yep. Even in our 'good' district, I am only asking DD to continue with geometry. DS will be transitioning to Derek Owens and mom-selected enrichment classes after 'spring break'.

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43 minutes ago, meena said:

The polio virus was isolated in 1908 and the first large-scale vaccine trial was in 1954. People didn't avoid large gatherings for that entirety of time. Were there other types of community behavior modifications going on? My relatives have never shared anything about needing to do anything like that, so I don't really know much about those times. Polio is similar to Covid, in that it produces no or few symptoms in many of those infected, so there were asymptomatic carriers. Those who did show symptoms were quarantined. I'm curious to know how/what type of precautions communities took during those times.

As far as not knowing if people around have tested negative or not, well, you don't. But if testing is more available, more people will be tested more frequently. I've talked to and read about many people who have had a little cough or throat tickle and would have gladly been tested if they could just for the reassurance. If that starts occurring, people are going to know sooner and with more certainty and will be able to adjust their social behaviors right away. Quite a bit of community spread has been from people continuing to do their regular activities despite not feeling well because they didn't realize what they were walking around with. The doctor I mentioned above became ill because of a co-worker who attended a meeting despite not feeling well (this was early on, right before social distancing became a thing and it's allergy season so was easy to explain away symptoms on something else). I think people will have a better understanding now, that if they do get a positive, they need to stay home and recover. Not everyone will do that (my MIL is like that), but many will because we are being taught during this time to take having this sickness seriously. I do think that people who are in contact with someone at higher risk may need to more carefully consider their activities.

Polio was a cyclical disease. My MIL and I were talking when they started quarantining for coronavirus. She says that summer was "polio season" when she was growing up (she was born in 1939), and they would close down the swimming pools in Kansas City. 

I did some googling on polio: 

Springfield, IL article on the quarantine for children issued in 1949. https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200322/springfield-history-childrens-quarantine-to-halt-polio

San Antonio TX shut schools for the term in 1946. Note this has a paywall but the first paragraph and picture of the local newspaper covers the topic. https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/history-culture/article/May-13-1946-Polio-scare-shuts-down-schools-11139328.php

New Hampshire Public Radio transcript tells of movie theaters using social distancing and swimming pools shut down. https://www.nhpr.org/post/wiping-out-polio-how-us-snuffed-out-killer#stream/0

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9 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Once a large group has been exposed and healthcare workers have been exposed and recovered, I see no reason to continue the quarantine. Thoughts?

 

I'm interested in whether people recovering from this illness are going to be struck with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or anything like that, as can happen after a nasty virus. I wouldn't have even thought about it except I have a couple of online friends who are part of those communities.

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34 minutes ago, beckyjo said:

Polio was a cyclical disease. My MIL and I were talking when they started quarantining for coronavirus. She says that summer was "polio season" when she was growing up (she was born in 1939), and they would close down the swimming pools in Kansas City. 

I did some googling on polio: 

Springfield, IL article on the quarantine for children issued in 1949. https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200322/springfield-history-childrens-quarantine-to-halt-polio

San Antonio TX shut schools for the term in 1946. Note this has a paywall but the first paragraph and picture of the local newspaper covers the topic. https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/history-culture/article/May-13-1946-Polio-scare-shuts-down-schools-11139328.php

New Hampshire Public Radio transcript tells of movie theaters using social distancing and swimming pools shut down. https://www.nhpr.org/post/wiping-out-polio-how-us-snuffed-out-killer#stream/0

Thank you for those links. I think understanding how communities dealt with this in the past will be helpful in trying to formulate plans for our future. That is an interesting point about the cyclical nature of polio. Right now we are too close to see whether there are cyclical patterns, and if so what they are. It's too early to tell if there is a "season" for this virus. If there is a pattern established, I could see adjusting school calendars for it. We're used to our school calendars following the traditional summers off pattern in the US, but that could be something we need to adjust.

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1 hour ago, meena said:

The polio virus was isolated in 1908 and the first large-scale vaccine trial was in 1954. People didn't avoid large gatherings for that entirety of time. Were there other types of community behavior modifications going on? My relatives have never shared anything about needing to do anything like that, so I don't really know much about those times. Polio is similar to Covid, in that it produces no or few symptoms in many of those infected, so there were asymptomatic carriers. Those who did show symptoms were quarantined. I'm curious to know how/what type of precautions communities took during those times.

 

People of means got out of the cities and headed for the country, where there was lower population density and less chance of contracting polio.  When there was an outbreak of polio in a community, theaters, pools, churches, etc were closed. Outbreaks tended to happen in summer, so if you could afford to head for the countryside, you did. 

Basically, people practiced social distancing.  If you do some googling, you'll find info about how people handled polio in the 1950s before a vaccine came around. It wasn't "business as usual".  People were very afraid and it was an enormous relief when a vaccine was available. 

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12 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I keep hearing people talking about how this pandemic shows the importance of staying home if you are sick. But all of the incentives work against that. Many workers have PTO and every sick day is a lost vacation day. Many employers have attendance policies that penalize workers for taking too many unscheduled PTO days. Many other workers have no paid time off at all. 

Most schools have attendance policies and kids who miss too many days can be disciplined or held back. 

I think I've read somewhere that vaccines are what makes it possible for mothers to work outside of the home. That might be a stretch. 

I'm watching the Pride and Prejudice mini-series from the 1990's with DD. She couldn't believe that Jane would spend days in bed for a cold. 

I remember when my dad's company (that he sold in 2005) went from sick days to PTO. The issue was that most people were getting "sick" on Mondays after big football games or Fridays/Tuesdays around three-day weekends. He would get so mad at people because he knew they were using sick days for personal days. So he changed the company policy to "flex" days so that people could do that without having to lie. 

So, as much as it makes sense to separate out sick / PTO days, I understand why companies would do otherwise.

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I had to send my 8th grader to school this year when she was sick, because once a child has missed 10 days (and doctor visits only excuse THAT day....no matter what, if she's sick for a week, the doctor visit only excuses her for the Wednesday that she was seen in the office), the family is referred to CPS.  And if I have a CPS investigation opened, I lose my teaching license, even if it's unfounded.  She wasn't super sick, but she just had crud that lasted about ten days after having missed a couple days earlier in the year.  She has asthma, and respiratory viruses just linger longer than they do for most kids.  

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Re: Attendance policies at schools

These are mostly determined by the state. In Texas, makeup hours are required after missing 10% of classes, even with confirmed illness. For instance, one of my students had surgery and a long recovery in the hospital. The state still said that after 10% of classes were missed for that semester, the student had to do makeup hours for the hours that were missed.

Re: staggered start times

Staggering start times would be a nightmare logistically. You would need twice as many teachers to manage this and schools don't have budget for that or enough teachers availale for it. You would still need to cut all class sizes in half in order to manage social distancing. The only way I can see this working is if we split the kids in half and do alternate days. Your kid is either M/Th or Tu/F or some other pair of days. I can see elementary going to half-days while middle school and high school go to alternating days.

Bear in mind that the average age of teachers is not low. 30% of teachers in Texas are 50+. 18% are 55+. We are going to be in a confined space with a lot of kids who may be asymptomatic. Teachers will definitely be hit hard if we don't put policies in place to protect them.

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I had to send my 8th grader to school this year when she was sick, because once a child has missed 10 days (and doctor visits only excuse THAT day....no matter what, if she's sick for a week, the doctor visit only excuses her for the Wednesday that she was seen in the office), the family is referred to CPS.  And if I have a CPS investigation opened, I lose my teaching license, even if it's unfounded.  She wasn't super sick, but she just had crud that lasted about ten days after having missed a couple days earlier in the year.  She has asthma, and respiratory viruses just linger longer than they do for most kids.  

 

My kid also has asthma and blew through school sick days, a lot of it was just that lingering crud, picked up from viruses from other kids who came in sick.  We have gone over the 10 day mark almost every year, so have to get a doctor note for every single absence. Even when the school nurse sent my kid home, calling me to come pick up, the school did not excuse that absence.  

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1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

I had a lot of respiratory illnesses as a kid, and always had as much time off as needed to get better; never did my academics any harm.

That was why my parents sent me to a mission school (Roman Catholic) for kindergarten and primary school. Don’t need a doctor’s note or medical certificate to be excused. Just honor code.

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31 minutes ago, slackermom said:

. Even when the school nurse sent my kid home, calling me to come pick up, the school did not excuse that absence.  

My DS15 puked twice in K-8 public school and I was called to pick him up. The school marked him as present for those days. After all he has to be present at school to be sent home. 

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39 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

DD used to attend Catholic school. I needed a note from the orthodontist when I had to take her out of school for an hour for her appointment. Absences of more than 3 days in a row required a doctor's note. It really made me mad. I'm the mom and I said my kid is going to the orthodontist. Why isn't that good enough? 

My sophomore year of high school I would schedule my orthodontist appointments so I would only miss school during the class period before lunch and then miss lunch, so I wouldn't miss too much in-class time. I was pretty serious about school and keeping my grades up, so I thought this was a good solution. Nope. I got in-school suspension without warning for missing that one class too many times. I was a straight-A student and had parental approval and orthodontist notes every time I came back to school, but that didn't matter to the admin one bit.

ETA: I lived in a rural town with no local orthodontist. The drive there and back took an hour, and then the appointment usually took another ~30 minutes. So there's no way I could just be absent over only the lunch period. I was told I should miss different classes, even though I would be absent from more classes (would have had to miss at least two). I would also potentially miss more substantial material in those classes since the one I chose to miss for my appointment time was a blow-off type class needed for graduation and all my other classes were college prep classes where an absence was harder to make up.

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I was thinking about attendance policies on my walk today.  I have sent my kids to school mildly ill, because the make-up work policies are so strict that it's harder on the kid to stay home day 1 and then be up until midnight catching up on days 2-3.  Then last year our state changed the attendance policies so if my kid is home for 10 days due to legitimate illness or injury, it's a truancy issue.  10 days out of 180 are not difficult to hit - a few minor illnesses and sports injuries will get you there.  So when the kid is a little warm and whiny but functional, you send her, because you don't know that she won't be really sick later in the year.

So it seems to me that under the current circumstances, we need to relax those policies a lot. 

Of course, that doesn't address the asymptomatic carrier issue.  But at least if you know the kid is coughing / sneezing, you can keep that at home.

It seems the same can be said about teachers and other workers.

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

  So when the kid is a little warm and whiny but functional, you send her, because you don't know that she won't be really sick later in the year.

So it seems to me that under the current circumstances, we need to relax those policies a lot. 

 

(the following sounds like I'm yelling at you, SKL, but I'm not. Your post was just a jumping off point - I'm agreeing with you)

It seems under ANY circumstances, we should relax those policies. Because although this disease has a higher fatality rate, make no mistake, those ridiculous attendence rules have killed people. Kids come to school with a cold, or even the flu, or RSV thinking it is a cold, and it gets passed around and ends up being taken home by someone with a premature infant or chemo patient or transplant patient at home. And someone who can't afford to get that illness gets it and dies. I am beyond certain that the stupid attendence policies we have in this country have killed babies. 

My son's college classes had a policy that if you missed more than two classes in a semester you failed. Period. Insane!!! And when he was in public school more than 10 days absent in a year required a doctor note for every single one or they could report you to CPS. We've had boardies post on this forum that they had to teach while sick with what they were sure was the flu. 

So much of the past month has been us as a society being forced to look at the serious flaws in our systems. Everything from healthcare tied to employment to the underpaid but essential workers to sick leave and school attendance. 

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Our local public school (that my 10th grade ds enrolled into this school year) has the craziest attendance policy ever. First, the school uses a block system, which means that kids take four courses during the first semester of the year (late August - early January) and then four courses during the second semester (mid-January - end of school). Basically, if you miss more than 3 days of school during the semester, you have to take finals. You also have to take finals if you have a final grade below a C in the course. Of course, kids don’t want to take finals! And these absences can be for anything - doctor’s appointments, sick days, family emergency, it doesn’t matter. So kids at this school go to school sick all. the. time. 

I think this attendance policy is stupid for so many reasons (finals should be all or nothing, “punishing” kids for missing more than three days of school is crazy, etc), and I can’t imagine that school administrators won’t chance this policy due to Covid19. There were several times that ds went to school when he wasn’t feeling the best, but wasn’t SICK....and usually this would drag on for several days. I often thought that if he just stayed home and recuperated, he would likely get better faster and he wouldn’t be spreading his germs to everyone else. 
 

 

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11 minutes ago, Just Kate said:

Our local public school (that my 10th grade ds enrolled into this school year) has the craziest attendance policy ever. First, the school uses a block system, which means that kids take four courses during the first semester of the year (late August - early January) and then four courses during the second semester (mid-January - end of school). Basically, if you miss more than 3 days of school during the semester, you have to take finals. You also have to take finals if you have a final grade below a C in the course. Of course, kids don’t want to take finals! And these absences can be for anything - doctor’s appointments, sick days, family emergency, it doesn’t matter. So kids at this school go to school sick all. the. time. 

I think this attendance policy is stupid for so many reasons (finals should be all or nothing, “punishing” kids for missing more than three days of school is crazy, etc), and I can’t imagine that school administrators won’t chance this policy due to Covid19. There were several times that ds went to school when he wasn’t feeling the best, but wasn’t SICK....and usually this would drag on for several days. I often thought that if he just stayed home and recuperated, he would likely get better faster and he wouldn’t be spreading his germs to everyone else. 
 

 

They don't have a block system here but the attendance policy is even worse. Here the policy is that if you miss any days at all you have to take finals. You can't miss for anything. One of the teachers was telling me how they had a student attend school the day after their mother died because they didn't want to have to take finals. It is absolutely absurd and dangerous. I hope that they are rethinking the idiocy of this during the current climate. I guess it is driven by finances and not good sense.

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1 minute ago, soror said:

They don't have a block system here but the attendance policy is even worse. Here the policy is that if you miss any days at all you have to take finals. You can't miss for anything. One of the teachers was telling me how they had a student attend school the day after their mother died because they didn't want to have to take finals. It is absolutely absurd and dangerous. I hope that they are rethinking the idiocy of this during the current climate. I guess it is driven by finances and not good sense.


Oh my goodness, that IS worse! Awful and irresponsible. And of course, I’m also sure these policies are driven by finances. 

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5 hours ago, Just Kate said:

Our local public school (that my 10th grade ds enrolled into this school year) has the craziest attendance policy ever. First, the school uses a block system, which means that kids take four courses during the first semester of the year (late August - early January) and then four courses during the second semester (mid-January - end of school). Basically, if you miss more than 3 days of school during the semester, you have to take finals. You also have to take finals if you have a final grade below a C in the course. Of course, kids don’t want to take finals! And these absences can be for anything - doctor’s appointments, sick days, family emergency, it doesn’t matter. So kids at this school go to school sick all. the. time. 

I think this attendance policy is stupid for so many reasons (finals should be all or nothing, “punishing” kids for missing more than three days of school is crazy, etc), and I can’t imagine that school administrators won’t chance this policy due to Covid19. There were several times that ds went to school when he wasn’t feeling the best, but wasn’t SICK....and usually this would drag on for several days. I often thought that if he just stayed home and recuperated, he would likely get better faster and he wouldn’t be spreading his germs to everyone else. 
 

 


This is the same policy we have. I specifically brought this up at the District’s school safety meeting in late February too. They looked at me like I had three heads. I provided my contact info for a follow up response and have gotten crickets.

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I understand that we need truancy laws, but they need a re-think for sure.  And have for some time.

This probably isn't the thread to solve that particular problem, other than to acknowledge that some relaxing of the current rules has got to be part of a back-to-school policy during this time.

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“Photos of Danish children returning to school while staying six feet apart highlight the country's cautious approach to lifting its lockdown measures”

https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-denmark-children-returning-to-school-amid-coronavirus-lockdown-2020

A picture says a thousand words 🙂 while it would be harder where I am with the high density population. 

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Those Danish kids look so calm and well behaved in the classroom. Even so that six feet apart doesn't seem far enough to me to be effective. As the days go on, I think it would be difficult and stressful to maintain such discipline. My kids went to Belgian primary school and I can tell you that they had to bring their own toilet paper to school and rarely used the bathrooms due to lack of soap or paper towels. Otherwise the school was wonderful and a great experience. I will be watching with great interest if and when Belgium tries to do something similar next month. 

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We need to think about having students attend on alternate days or having 1/2 the class come in the morning and the other 1/2 come in the afternoon. None of this will be easy. We will all be bothered and inconvenienced by this, but is is worth it. 

I was talking to teachers at one of the hybrid schools where I work, and we agreed to lower our class sizes. However, we get paid based on how many students we have. So we either have to work longer days and offer more classes (which won't work well in our current space) or make less money. I might suggest that students are on a rotation. - One week at school, the next week at home so the teachers can maintain an income and keep the students safe. I doubt that would work, but I think at this point, we need to consider everything to keep everyone safe. 

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I really think public responses to respiratory symptoms in workplaces and schools will change towards zero tolerance.

It might become normal for people who cough or sneeze, to say, "Excuse me." -- in a way that actually means they are *leaving* and need to be 'excused'. I can see people saying, "Bless you." in a way that means that means also, "Goodbye, and I hope you feel better soon." I can see us adopting the custom that someone told me (who might not have had the cultural knowledge to be accurate) that in China (?) people go to the restroom to blow their noses, and would never do it in an open area of a home, workplace, or school.

For hand washing, at a kids day camp involving a daily snack, they had a hand-wash station set up with two large metal bowls. One was filled with warm soapy water, an the other with rinse water -- kind of like washing dishes in two sinks. Kids would scrub up in the soapy one, then dip to rinse their hands in the clear one, and there were towels to dry on.

This was very efficient (longer with a 20 second long scrub) and good enough for general cleansing in pre-covid-19 times, but I'm unsure of the functionality of soap-vs-virus in a reused basin. Does the soap entrap the virus? Would it remain trapped (like oils from dishes) and not transfer to the next kid? Does the soap kill the virus, leaving it dead after contact, even if it remains in the water between kids? Or does the soap merely help the virus release, and then (usually) wash down the drain, and the basins would be horrible vectors for infecting all users?

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4 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I really think public responses to respiratory symptoms in workplaces and schools will change towards zero tolerance.

It might become normal for people who cough or sneeze, to say, "Excuse me." -- in a way that actually means they are *leaving* and need to be 'excused'. I can see people saying, "Bless you." in a way that means that means also, "Goodbye, and I hope you feel better soon." I can see us adopting the custom that someone told me (who might not have had the cultural knowledge to be accurate) that in China (?) people go to the restroom to blow their noses, and would never do it in an open area of a home, workplace, or school.

For hand washing, at a kids day camp involving a daily snack, they had a hand-wash station set up with two large metal bowls. One was filled with warm soapy water, an the other with rinse water -- kind of like washing dishes in two sinks. Kids would scrub up in the soapy one, then dip to rinse their hands in the clear one, and there were towels to dry on.

This was very efficient (longer with a 20 second long scrub) and good enough for general cleansing in pre-covid-19 times, but I'm unsure of the functionality of soap-vs-virus in a reused basin. Does the soap entrap the virus? Would it remain trapped (like oils from dishes) and not transfer to the next kid? Does the soap kill the virus, leaving it dead after contact, even if it remains in the water between kids? Or does the soap merely help the virus release, and then (usually) wash down the drain, and the basins would be horrible vectors for infecting all users?

Soap inactivates the virus by destroying its outer layer.

It is quite effective but probably not 100%, I don't think that everyone washing in the same water would be ideal though certainly better than not washing.

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5 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I really think public responses to respiratory symptoms in workplaces and schools will change towards zero tolerance.

It might become normal for people who cough or sneeze, to say, "Excuse me." -- in a way that actually means they are *leaving* and need to be 'excused'. I can see people saying, "Bless you." in a way that means that means also, "Goodbye, and I hope you feel better soon." I can see us adopting the custom that someone told me (who might not have had the cultural knowledge to be accurate) that in China (?) people go to the restroom to blow their noses, and would never do it in an open area of a home, workplace, or school.

 

I feel like this would vary wildly. Leave and go home when you sneeze or cough? We live in allergy country and the schools and streets would be empty. Maybe a better way would be a fever check if someone sneezes or coughs. 

I think 100% attendance also needs to stop being something people are given awards for. It basically means you are getting a prize for 1) having a better immune system than everyone else or 2) coming to school sick. It's crap. I agree on the attendance/finals policy too.

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I think workers will need to wear effective masks / gloves rather than trying to police others' behavior.  You can't tell if someone (or even yourself) is sick based on whether or not they sneeze or cough, or even by their temperature.

I could see a lot of fashionable lines of masks and gloves coming out in the near future ....

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11 hours ago, lmrich said:

We need to think about having students attend on alternate days or having 1/2 the class come in the morning and the other 1/2 come in the afternoon. None of this will be easy. We will all be bothered and inconvenienced by this, but is is worth it. 

I was talking to teachers at one of the hybrid schools where I work, and we agreed to lower our class sizes. However, we get paid based on how many students we have. So we either have to work longer days and offer more classes (which won't work well in our current space) or make less money. I might suggest that students are on a rotation. - One week at school, the next week at home so the teachers can maintain an income and keep the students safe. I doubt that would work, but I think at this point, we need to consider everything to keep everyone safe. 

I think alternate days might be better so that there’s time to clean the building before the next set of students arrives. One half of students could physically attend M/W while the other half is at home doing virtual work; switch on Tues/Thurs. Reduce hours on those days by making them for core classes only. Fridays could be for specials/electives, alternating weeks. So one half would attend physically on 1st and 3rd Friday, other half on 2nd and 4th. 

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At some point we have to decide what the primary goal of school is.  Is the primary goal to educate students?  I would say, in practice, not really (and I'm a teacher).  The primary goal of schools is to feed children and offer child care so parents can work.  Education is definitely *A* goal, but I'm not sure it's the primary one, from a society functioning perspective.  

The way we structure the schools is going to be different if the goal is education (in which case maybe half day schedules or alternating days might work) or if the goal is child care and feeding.  

We also need to think through teacher exposure.  Teachers aren't going to have reduced exposure if they're having alternating days or half days, and they're the ones in school who are most at risk.  

I can imagine safer ways to do elementary school, like the Danes are.  I'm not sure how to do high school, with specialist teachers, buildings set up for three thousand students, mandatory pe and fine arts classes (with over a hundred kids in the gym at a time).  There's no way to create smaller bubbles in that the way a classroom functions as a bubble in primary school.  

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3 hours ago, meena said:

I think alternate days might be better so that there’s time to clean the building before the next set of students arrives. 

If we are talking about fogging the buildings with chemicals on a nightly basis, I am not even sure that school districts have personnel, budget etc to do that. I think that janitors can not clean every single desk and chair and door every single day. My mind is boggling thinking about how much labor is involved: in my area, high schools are built for 2000 students with many buildings.

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

We also need to think through teacher exposure.  Teachers aren't going to have reduced exposure if they're having alternating days or half days, and they're the ones in school who are most at risk.  

My neighboring elementary school has an older population of teachers : some have worked there for over 35 years and a lot have preexisting conditions (one is in a wheelchair, one has an oxygen tank on some days). I am not sure how this will affect the older teachers who are the most vulnerable to covid. Protecting the teachers is another complicated topic that we need to find solutions for.

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10 hours ago, meena said:

I think alternate days might be better so that there’s time to clean the building before the next set of students arrives. One half of students could physically attend M/W while the other half is at home doing virtual work; switch on Tues/Thurs. Reduce hours on those days by making them for core classes only. Fridays could be for specials/electives, alternating weeks. So one half would attend physically on 1st and 3rd Friday, other half on 2nd and 4th. 

Great plan! That makes so much sense. Parents could use the summer to start to arrange child care for their kids on their day at home. Hoping business will do the same. 

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1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

One of the things that's supposedly happening in our schools when they reopen is that playground equipment will be cleaned multiple times throughout the day, as well as all high use surfaces...as yet, I have no idea by whom. The school would have to hire a team of cleaners to be cleaning through the entire school day, as well as after school. Not sure where the $ is going to come from for that! We all actually know that it won't happen.

Or teachers will be assigned to do it, as well as all the other responsibilities.  "Other duties as assigned..."

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17 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Or teachers will be assigned to do it, as well as all the other responsibilities.  "Other duties as assigned..."

When? I’m with my students all day except for the 20 minutes they go to lunch (& I get to eat and go potty) and the 30 minutes they go to special when I can plan, grade, and attend meetings. Quite often I have to give that time up to supervise kids with behavior issues.

 If we decide to cut specials, then I’d only have my 20 minute lunch break that I’m not actually willing to give up to clean the playground and my classroom. Sorry folks. I already buy my own cleaning supplies to clean my room after school everyday since teachers are not “allowed” to use janitor supplies or anything that might be toxic. And our janitors only vacuum and empty the trash.

Edited by Hilltopmom
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7 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

When? I’m with my students all day except for the 20 minutes they go to lunch (& I get to eat and go potty) and the 30 minutes they go to special when I can plan, grade, and attend meetings. Quite often I have to give that time up to supervise kids with behavior issues.

 If we decide to cut specials, then I’d only have my 20 minute lunch break that I’m not actually willing to give up to clean the playground and my classroom. Sorry folks. I already buy my own cleaning supplies to clean my room after school everyday since teachers are not “allowed” to use janitor supplies or anything that might be toxic. And our janitors only vacuum and empty the trash.

Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic.  

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What if kids were involved with the cleaning of their classrooms? It's a life skill with ties to both 'health' and character development. I'm thinking they are probably already given some time (mostly in the early grades) to put things away and pack up their belongings at the end of the day. I can see cleaning time cutting into instructional time, but it might be just one of those mandatory things. Once kids know how to do it, it could be as little as 5 minutes twice a day.

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54 minutes ago, bolt. said:

What if kids were involved with the cleaning of their classrooms? It's a life skill with ties to both 'health' and character development. I'm thinking they are probably already given some time (mostly in the early grades) to put things away and pack up their belongings at the end of the day. I can see cleaning time cutting into instructional time, but it might be just one of those mandatory things. Once kids know how to do it, it could be as little as 5 minutes twice a day.

I would be highly skeptical about how "sanitary" the surfaces cleaned by an elementary school kid were as opposed to those cleaned by a janitor with hospital grade chemicals. It is not an ideal solution during a pandemic (and it will be a pandemic until there is "herd immunity", however long that takes ... )

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1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

I would be highly skeptical about how "sanitary" the surfaces cleaned by an elementary school kid were as opposed to those cleaned by a janitor with hospital grade chemicals. It is not an ideal solution during a pandemic (and it will be a pandemic until there is "herd immunity", however long that takes ... )

Yeah, I was thinking full janitorial services in addition to stepping up classroom care by kids. I wouldn't want to go without professional cleaning for any reason.

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1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I would also be skeptical about elementary school kids ability to work safely with the kind of chemicals we're talking about.  It just takes one kid spraying into another kid's eyes for it to be a disaster.  

 

I suppose soap and water would be better than nothing. Peroxide is pretty safe, but can bleach clothes and wouldn't be good in the eyes. I'm thinking a teacher or whomever could spray each desk,and the kids wipe them?

I mean, they manage hand sanitizer, and that isn't great in the eyes either. 

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Cleaning and disinfecting are two different things. According to the CDC (and common sense), it's important to clean before the disinfecting process. I think kids could be responsible for wiping desks to do a cursory clean and then have the janitorial staff sweep through and spray disinfectant across desks and other highly touched surfaces at the end of the day. If nothing else, it would give the kids a sense of awareness and agency about the importance of cleanliness. Also, if the school community is taking care of some of the easier cleaning tasks, it could allow the janitorial staff more time to devote to doing the deeper cleaning/disinfecting.

Most schools have day and evening janitors, with the bulk of them working in the evening after schools is out. Schools will need to hire more janitors in general, and add more day staff to disinfect hot spots throughout the day (playgrounds, other highly touched surfaces).

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One thought I've had is that school districts will really need a strong, ongoing virtual option that runs parallel with whatever in-person time we're able to have. The way I think about it, there's two groups of kids -

1. Kids for whom it's just not safe to be in a school building for the next 2+ years until we're fully on the other side of this virus (preexiting conditions or high risk family members) and/or families who want to keep their kids home for the duration but don't feel prepared to homeschool. I would love to see states offer a virtual school for these students (either contracting with an existing company or building on resources that already exist). I think each district trying to create their own full-time virtual program is untenable. What those kids do doesn't need to be tied to the local district's pacing or plans.

2. Kids who choose to attend brick-and-mortar schools (even in a hybrid/part-time situation). At some point individuals or whole schools that are exposed are going to have a repeat quarantine situation. There'll need to be programs in place so kids who are coming to school can miss 2-3 weeks while self-quarantining, then come back and keep going with the regular class. Personally, if we're back in the fall, I plan to videotape most of my lessons. I could see a situation where kids can skype into class or teachers keep an updated bank of videos/resources for the topics they're covering in class that kids can access from home.

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10 minutes ago, cabercro said:

At some point individuals or whole schools that are exposed are going to have a repeat quarantine situation. 

Many people around me do not seem to understand that there can be a repeat quarantine scenario when schools open back up in the Fall (especially crowded spaces like dorm rooms where bathrooms are shared etc). They think that once SIP is lifted, then they can go back to their lives as usual. 

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55 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

5YO girl developed meningitis as a complication of COVID19. 5-Year-Old Daughter of Cop & Firefighter Dies of Coronavirus

Adding here because if there are more of these stories, parents will start getting scared. (of course that's why the disinformation campaign has already started with claims that she had meningitis before COVID but there was already a documented connection between COVID and meningitis)

 


There was a story today about a man losing his leg b/c his blood thinners were causing internal bleeding, also COVID related.

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20 hours ago, Terabith said:

 

I can imagine safer ways to do elementary school, like the Danes are.  I'm not sure how to do high school, with specialist teachers, buildings set up for three thousand students, mandatory pe and fine arts classes (with over a hundred kids in the gym at a time).  There's no way to create smaller bubbles in that the way a classroom functions as a bubble in primary school.  

They could work on it!  Most students are on a general academic track...I was with most of the same students in Chemistry, Calculus, Advanced English, ETC. They could try to block certain kids already together in similar classes.  With today's computing power, they could set up class schedules to limit the mixing...although then they would have challenges with moving to different classes, they might have to have longer breaks between classes and stagger moving between classes. So, you take all the kids in Chemisty and Calculus and put them in the same electives, but the computer figures out the best mix with the least amount of children mixing between classes.

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16 hours ago, mathnerd said:

If we are talking about fogging the buildings with chemicals on a nightly basis, I am not even sure that school districts have personnel, budget etc to do that. I think that janitors can not clean every single desk and chair and door every single day. My mind is boggling thinking about how much labor is involved: in my area, high schools are built for 2000 students with many buildings.

 

The students can wipe their own areas before each class with hydrogen peroxide and a paper towel, hydrogen peroxide emits no VOCs.

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