Thoughts on summer / fall

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

At this point, I don't even know how the schools are going to manage letting students clear out their lockers of personal items. And returning things that are school property that students may have at home, like sports uniforms, computers, calculators, etc. Our schools didn't have students clear everything out before they closed, because the initial  plan was only to be closed for three weeks.

This was a discussion at the last school board meeting. They have a plan but don’t want to announce it too quickly because they don’t want to give the impression everything is just “over”.

[SKL]

26 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We homeschool now but if your kid is at home with you and you have to coordinate all of the work the kid does, I'd rather homeschool and do my own assignments. I'm amazed that more parents aren't coming to that same conclusion. 

I can't speak for others, but personally I am not coordinating my kids' work.  I wake them up and threaten them to make them submit all their work by the deadlines.  I don't know how to even see what they are doing (it's mostly online), and I'm not sure I want to even if I could.  After all, I don't see what they do in school all day when we aren't on lockdown.

I have enough to do with a full-time job (working at home), managing a reasonably peaceful/orderly home, and making sure people do what is needed for good health.  My role in their schooling currently is to encourage them, be here for questions (they are not asking any though), deal with any messages from their teachers, and a few tasks the school has specifically assigned to parents.

But my kids are 13.  It would probably be different if they were much younger.  I wonder how it's going for folks whose kids are struggling to learn to read etc.  Many of us are still working full time and/or have little idea how to help a struggling learner.

I agree they are extremely unlikely to fail kids based on what happens in the 4th quarter, and I personally am willing to accept it if my kids get worse grades than usual (if they do get grades).  But I did tell my kids they need to do the work or they wouldn't graduate from 8th grade.  This was to get their cooperation, as I can't stand over them and crack a whip all day.  As long as they submit everything before midnight, IMO it's up to their teachers to figure out what to do about any learning issues right now. 

(I do have one of my kids signed up for an online math course that she will take over the summer.  I don't think it's right to make her do it now in addition to online school.)

[Storygirl]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This was a discussion at the last school board meeting. They have a plan but don’t want to announce it too quickly because they don’t want to give the impression everything is just “over”.

Our school board meeting is available to watch online, and I haven't yet, but I will. It's two hours long. Right now in our state, schools are closed through May 1, but the superintendent did release an announcement to seniors (but available for all to read) that they don't expect classes to continue, and they set an alternate graduation ceremony date and prom date for July.

So I bet they have discussed a plan for emptying out the buildings of personal possessions and are waiting to release it until schools are officially closed.

Our governor has said that he doubts schools will reopen but has not issued the orders yet. I expect it may be coming soon, as he has been proactive on many things and has not waited until the last minute to announce things. But technically, he could wait until May 1 to decide.

[SanDiegoMom]

2 hours ago, dmmetler said:

Our governor "Strongly recommended" schools stay closed for the remainder of the year. I suspect the local districts would have anyway, but this triggered the official announcement. I'm having a harder time with it than I thought I would. (My community center follows school cancellations and closings). I'm really wondering if I'll have a program left at all by the time things reopen.

Our governor cancelled school for the rest of the year VERY early, and then soon after did a stay at home order until June 10. It was shocking and we grieved when it happened, but now it feels better to have a long time frame that might get lifted earlier, than an ever shifting target. Easier to deal with psychologically at least. 

[mom2scouts]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh! i do think that idea of having the highschool and maybe middle school students stay home and do online classes, and then use those buildings to spread out the little kids, makes sense. The only issue is - that requires way more teachers for the little kids. But maybe fewer for the older kids? 

I don't agree that this is a good idea. Older students are more likely to have classes that can't be done at home or can't be done well online. I'm thinking of lab science classes, vocational programs, or shop type classes. 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I don't agree that this is a good idea. Older students are more likely to have classes that can't be done at home or can't be done well online. I'm thinking of lab science classes, vocational programs, or shop type classes. 

Plus, while my older kids could stay home alone, it's really hard for them to self teach Spanish 3 or algebra or chemistry or AP History.  

[amyx4]

18 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I don't agree that this is a good idea. Older students are more likely to have classes that can't be done at home or can't be done well online. I'm thinking of lab science classes, vocational programs, or shop type classes. 

I have two in college and a high schooler that's dual enrolled at the CC.  StateU and the CC have moved to online classes.

They each have at least two lab classes. They are complaining loudly about the "missing labs" or having to recreate labs at home.

They are all talking about not taking lab classes in the fall if the fall semester is online.  I've suggested that they wait to the last possible minute to register for the fall semester. I'm out of ideas or suggestions for them.

I have huge sympathy for younger students and their teachers in traditional schools

Edited April 16, 2020 by amyx4

[Terabith]

Honestly, I wish schools would allow an "opt out" program.  I would be okay with my kids repeating grades rather than trying to slog through this.  Or let us opt out and just fully homeschool.  Just start back when it's safe to start back and stop trying to keep going.  

[Sherry in OH]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, I wish schools would allow an "opt out" program.  I would be okay with my kids repeating grades rather than trying to slog through this.  Or let us opt out and just fully homeschool.  Just start back when it's safe to start back and stop trying to keep going.  

 

Me too.  I emailed younger Ds's principal asking if he could test out of the remainder of the school year.  She was adamant that students had to finish the year.  Ds is so bored.  We considered pulling him but the district has 14 days to process homeschool paperwork.  The student must remain enrolled those 14 days.  There are 28 days left in the school year.  

My older son likes his online classes. Most of them are live and interactive which makes a big difference.  

[Terabith]

My kids don't really have online classes.  They have online assignments but are having to self teach and self complete assignments.  It's annoying.  

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I see what some of my teacher friends are describing and it's amazing.  But those are mostly teachers in private or in small charters who are well supported by admin, and are allowed to design what works for them and their students.  Their kids are playing in games, and meeting in small groups in online breakout spaces, and completing research with tools the schools already had.  

My friends in large public districts are basically teaching with their hands tied behind their back.  The teachers are just as strong, but they are so restricted that what they're doing is really limited.  A large district near me waited 4 weeks to start online learning and the first day went so badly that they have canceled the rest of the week to problem solve.  The issue seems to be a combination of a computer network that couldn't handle all the online classes, and a lack of security features that allowed kids to log in anonymously and spam the classrooms with porn.  

The district I live in is doing slightly better, but not hugely better.  Kids get maybe 1 zoom class a week, and some worksheets.  

Oh yeah, I don't blame our teachers at all.  It's an impossible demand.  

[Terabith]

7 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I didn't think you were.  I don't think online schooling is an impossible demand, especially for older kids.  I think there are places that are already doing it well, both established online programs, and smaller schools or maybe smaller districts that have been positioned to respond quickly to the crisis.  

But I think that if large school districts are going to have an online option in the fall, it needs to be a real online option.  They need to buy a curriculum that's already written for online learning, implement training, and do it right.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be better than what they're offering now.  

Yeah, there's definitely ways to do it well.  (Though not for the little kids.)  This was just thrown into quickly with no preparation, with no curriculum, and with a school system where a huge percentage of families don't have internet or enough devices. 

[ElizabethB]

On 4/13/2020 at 6:30 PM, dmmetler said:

I honestly don't know how to manage in a school setting. If our preschool reopens, I will probably do one class a day, rather than doing all my classes on one day, so I have time to clean instruments, and not use some of the wood instruments that are not Clorox wipes friendly. My load was never below 25 class sections a week while teaching in a public K-8. There would be no way to clean everything. Having been that specialist, and having taught specialists, the safest thing would be to not have specialist music classes in elementary at all-but I can't see that going over well for either kids or classroom teachers, both of whom definitely need that break in their day. 

Students could clean the instrument they are using, teach how first, then spend first few minutes of class everyone cleaning with you monitoring cleaning.  

ETA: It's kind of yucky to not continue doing that, now that I think of it!!  Much  more hygienic, a decent practice to continue.

Edited April 16, 2020 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

22 hours ago, Terabith said:

So we shorten the school day....  When I've taught in elementary school, kids were NOT ALLOWED to wash their hands at any point, because hand washing for 20 plus kids took too much time.  And it really does take like 25 minutes for each child to thoroughly wash his or her hands.  If we go back, we have to include hand washing time.  That's going to eat into our time schedule.  

Plus, I worry about teachers, who are frankly more vulnerable than most school aged students, who are still being exposed to 30 kids a day, even if it's in shifts.  But frankly, the real reason we have school is to provide, not so much an education, but food and child care.  Both sets of kids would need to eat at least lunch.  And the child care situation is still significant.  

I agree that I'd rather do alternating days.  Honestly, elementary could easily be done in half day shifts.  I'm really concerned about high school though.  They need the full day.  

Round hand washing stations!  Probably expensive to add in after the fact, unfortunately.  Very efficient and easy to monitor, though.  

 

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

Round hand washing stations!  Probably expensive to add in after the fact, unfortunately.  Very efficient and easy to monitor, though.  

 

Yes, any classroom I've ever been in, I would have killed for a few sinks to allow for hand washing and clean up of paint or glue, etc.  

[Rosie_0801]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

My kids also have assignments for art, music, gym, AR reading, and Spanish, which frankly pi$$es me off.  Must be a state law requirement or something.  With my kid having to teach herself math that is hard for her, submitting the assignments near midnight every night, she doesn't need a freaking sketch book assignment.

 

So far, my kid only has an assignment for PE, to answer some questions, and to plan and cook a meal in the next month for Home Ec. 
But she's year 7, which is the first year of high school here, so not very important in the scheme of things.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Plus, while my older kids could stay home alone, it's really hard for them to self teach Spanish 3 or algebra or chemistry or AP History.  

Lots of kids take those classes online in my state. The problem is that is via FLVS, and the kids home now for stay in place are not using that system. But supposedly it can be done. It's a big deal here. 

[ktgrok]

I wonder if they could do "lab intensives" like whatever that company was that did them for homeschoolers. So each weekend at the school someone is there to teach SMALL groups of kids a bunch of lab stuff, do labs, etc then write them up and turn them in to regular class during the week? So each kid goes maybe once a month to the lab, but for several hours at a time?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

Can I share your quote on Facebook? 

Sure.

[SKL]

They might have to change the course sequence so labs are taken in a later semester or later year.

[Wheres Toto]

The only class of mine that is continuing is an algebra class.  I share my screen showing my powerpoint and using a drawing tablet to work out problems so they can see.

One of the reasons I haven't continued any other classes is because I don't want to be just talking at them.  My classes were all very hands-on.

[PinkTulip]

Our governor announced about a week ago that schools will be closed for the rest of this school year. Then today, our school district announced that 4th quarter grades will be: A / pass / incomplete. I’m so relieved because my 11th grader’s teachers have definitely overcompensated with the work. I’m trying to work full-time from home and it’s been hard helping him stay on top of everything and get my own work done. 

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, ElizabethB said:

Round hand washing stations!  Probably expensive to add in after the fact, unfortunately.  Very efficient and easy to monitor, though.  

 

 

Our elementary school has half-round washing stations outside the restroom proper. (only toilets behind the door. So the teacher can monitor against playing around with water while waiting students are lined up)

The middle schools have no soap in the restrooms though 😞

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by vonfirmath

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/us/cdc-fema-national-strategy/index.html

I don't know if anyone has posted this. But the preliminary leaked national recommendations includes schools opening first, before businesses.

Which makes sense from a childcare perspective and because young people are supposedly less likely to get it. But it does not make sense when you factor in that there are adults working in schools, and that children will be able to carry the virus home to family members, even if they themselves don't acquire symptoms.

I don't know what the answers will be, but it won't be easy. I don't think that schools can just say, "Yay, we are open again!" and go back to normal. Which means they need time to put new measures into place. I think most schools will not reopen before fall, despite what this leaked report suggests about them reopening in the first phase.

I suspect a lot will vary by governor, and whether they retain control or hand it over to counties/districts the way (at least here) they started out when it came to closings. Based on the mixed things I’m hearing about my own district, they might be stupid enough to to do dumb things if allowed. I’d like to say that my governor will keep a strong hand, but there have been reasons for me to think he doesn’t really understand my particular region very well.

[mom2scouts]

3 hours ago, Sherry in OH said:

 

Me too.  I emailed younger Ds's principal asking if he could test out of the remainder of the school year.  She was adamant that students had to finish the year.  Ds is so bored.  We considered pulling him but the district has 14 days to process homeschool paperwork.  The student must remain enrolled those 14 days.  There are 28 days left in the school year.  

My older son likes his online classes. Most of them are live and interactive which makes a big difference.  

From your username, I assume you're in Ohio? When you send homeschool paperwork, you can remove your child immediately. You do NOT need to wait until the school processes it.  Your child does not remain enrolled for those 14 days. The school has 14 days to ask for more information, but they can take as long as they want to process it. The second you send your notification, your child is a homeschooler. If your school has told you otherwise, they're making that up. You can send your paperwork tomorrow and ditch the online stuff immediately.

[Kassia]

2 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

From your username, I assume you're in Ohio? When you send homeschool paperwork, you can remove your child immediately. You do NOT need to wait until the school processes it.  Your child does not remain enrolled for those 14 days. The school has 14 days to ask for more information, but they can take as long as they want to process it. The second you send your notification, your child is a homeschooler. If your school has told you otherwise, they're making that up. You can send your paperwork tomorrow and ditch the online stuff immediately.

 

That's what I thought, too.  It always used to be that way but I don't know if anything has changed.  I was always told that OH is a notification state and not an approval state.  So, once you send in your notification, you are free to withdraw your child from public school. Many times the schools have no idea what the law is and/or they want you to do whatever is best for them, which you are not obligated to do.  

Many years ago, before I knew of any homeschooling groups online, I tried to withdraw dd from public school and was given misinformation by the homeschooling coordinator for the county that led me to believe I wasn't allowed to when I actually was.  I ended up using a virtual school instead and it was fine, but it still makes me mad that no one in charge seems to know what they are doing (or care).  Many many districts have no idea what the homeschooling laws are or they try to overreach their authority.  

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Someone has to create the materials for the high school and middle school kids, run their online classes, mark and grade work, support students, continue their own professional development in online learning etc. You can't do that with fewer teachers, or rather, you can try, and the online learning environment for those kids will be cr*ap. Because teachers can't magic up an adequate online environment at short notice, with minimal training AND understaffed.

 

I'd think they would do some kind of training over the summer? Like I said, my state already has robust K-12 online schooling. Most students arleady take at least one class via online learning at some point. It would be a matter of ramping up, not starting from scratch. 

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Yeah, I think there are better models than all sitting and staring at each other on Zoom while the teacher talks.  I don't think that lecture based classrooms work real well to begin with, but if you're going to lecture, then you'd still want to be projecting your powerpoint, or an interactive whiteboard or something.  

Yeah, that's pretty crazy. My husband teaches online now, and he records 2 out of 3 weekly lectures and does a live lecture with Q and A time once a week. For the recorded ones at least, he does not use video of himself -the video portion is powerpoint slides, and he records himself talking as he explains each one. 

[Sk8ermaiden]

2 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Yeah, I think there are better models than all sitting and staring at each other on Zoom while the teacher talks.  I don't think that lecture based classrooms work real well to begin with, but if you're going to lecture, then you'd still want to be projecting your powerpoint, or an interactive whiteboard or something.  

You can put your powerpoint or notes up on Zoom if you are the meeting host. I'm on a board of directors that uses Zoom to meet frequently and our president does it all the time. If you ever use Outschool (which uses Zoom), the teachers use screen sharing intensively to teach.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Sk8ermaiden

[AngieW in Texas]

I teach public high school. We are definitely limited in what we can do. We have permission to use zoom with students but with all kinds of threats about losing our license. I'm recording videos of my desktop using screencastomatic and posting that for my students. Once I have had several students with the same question, I post a new video explaining that. I'm available by email and I have a google voice number that parents can call or text me on (provided by the school). We are required to touch base with every family where the student has not turned in an assignment the week before. We don't start grading until this week, but we haven't been given grading guidelines yet. The board meeting was a few hours ago and they should be sending us grading guidelines in the morning.

There is no way to socially distance at all in schools right now. We'd have to cut the school population in half either by having a morning shift and an afternoon shift or by having alternating days.

We have an idiot governor. I'm afraid he's going to say that schools go back May 4th, despite the fact that we are still going up and our peak is several weeks away. While the Travis county judge is good. Our judge is not. He was mostly following along with the Travis county judge, but two weeks ago he "borrowed" fire fighter equipment and drove it out to his grandson's house to go to his birthday party while we were all under his "stay at home" order. He's hiding now.

 

[CAJinBE]

46 minutes ago, AngieW in Texas said:

I teach public high school. We are definitely limited in what we can do. We have permission to use zoom with students but with all kinds of threats about losing our license.

Can you explain what you mean about losing your license?

[Hilltopmom]

As a teacher In upstate NY, we don’t even have curriculum materials provided to us for any subjects other than math. We cobble together our own stuff for each subject based on the standards we are supposed to cover. So, to think a district is going to purchase “all online designed curriculum” to implement is probably a pipe dream. There’s zero money for that. We don’t even have any textbooks. I buy my own units off Teachers Pay Teachers.

Signing kids up for something like K-12 would work, but our state doesn’t recognize K-12 as an educational option.

It would be nice if we could offer all grades the same well designed online curriculum, but I don’t see it happening. We are training ourselves on how to use our online platform and I’ve put together my curriculum so far using Teaching videos, read alouds, worksheets, YouTube videos, and educational sites like Brainpop & Mystery Science. But it’s very much a hodgepodge. I’m doing the best I can with limited choices. Oh and not every area in my district can even get internet / phone access for streaming- it doesn’t exist in all of our rural area. So some kids are just getting crappy packets of worksheets with no instruction or interaction other than a phone call from me.

If we knew we would be out in the fall we could prepare better options, working all summer to prep for new content, and not getting paid for it as usual-  at this point we don’t even know who is teaching what grade in the fall (there’s always some movement). Add in the complication that I’m a special Ed teacher trying to provide support to kids in gen ed classes and things get complicated.  My students need a lot of support they aren’t getting & my kids with behaviors are not doing any work at home for their parents- I can barely get them to do anything at school.

Right now I simply cannot teach my own kids at home, teach my current students from home, and plan excellent remote instruction for fall.

Feeling pretty defeated about the whole thing this morning.

[Hilltopmom]

4 hours ago, CAJinBE said:

Can you explain what you mean about losing your license?

I can. In my district we have been told to use the platform provided by the school (Schoology)- it’s like google classroom.
If we use something else like zoom and there are any problems, the school will not support us legally. some places teachers are doing 1:1 video chats with students but that’s getting iffy - no supervision. 

[BlsdMama]

21 hours ago, bolt. said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine the virus taking a full year to resolve completely. Why not offer an extra years' educational services to review, refresh, and sort of "make up for" the sometimes-chaotic semi-learning that is on offer in the meantime?

 

Hm. This is interesting because it’s a different perspective. 
 

I don’t view the purpose of the quarantine to stop, avoid, or resolve the virus. I see the virus as an ever present, continually evolving virus, like the flu.  I see the quarantine as a solution to hospital capacity. As a novel virus, there is no one immune. The hospitals would be overwhelmed if we couldn’t slow the spread. Even as a high risk, very careful person (for now) I do not believe I can always avoid this virus. Exposure is inevitable. I just want to avoid getting it at the peak so I can ensure myself the best case scenario in the hospital.

Once a large group has been exposed and healthcare workers have been exposed and recovered, I see no reason to continue the quarantine. Thoughts?

[Sherry in OH]

14 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

From your username, I assume you're in Ohio? When you send homeschool paperwork, you can remove your child immediately. You do NOT need to wait until the school processes it.  Your child does not remain enrolled for those 14 days. The school has 14 days to ask for more information, but they can take as long as they want to process it. The second you send your notification, your child is a homeschooler. If your school has told you otherwise, they're making that up. You can send your paperwork tomorrow and ditch the online stuff immediately.

 

Thanks, but I am no longer in Ohio.  If I were I would still be homeschooling.  

In the grand scheme one month isn't worth fussing over.  We have told ds to do the minimum.  If he ignores the extra optional assignments, many of which are remedial, and links to additional resources, ds can finish in 2-3 hours. That gives him the remainder of the day to play, read, or study topics of interest to him.  If he does all the assignments, many of which are remedial, school takes all day.    His grades may fall, but as long as submits the daily attendance assignments, won't fall enough to jeopardize grade advancement.  

I need to focus my attention on the summer.  One of his summer camps has been canceled.  I won't know about the others until May, but suspect that one will be canceled and the other run as an online course.   In the past, I have required math, reading, instrument practice, and one hour of physical activity on days he didn't have outside activities.  I want to add a bit more this year but not so much that it becomes drudgery.

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

 

Hm. This is interesting because it’s a different perspective. 
 

I don’t view the purpose of the quarantine to stop, avoid, or resolve the virus. I see the virus as an ever present, continually evolving virus, like the flu.  I see the quarantine as a solution to hospital capacity. As a novel virus, there is no one immune. The hospitals would be overwhelmed if we couldn’t slow the spread. Even as a high risk, very careful person (for now) I do not believe I can always avoid this virus. Exposure is inevitable. I just want to avoid getting it at the peak so I can ensure myself the best case scenario in the hospital.

Once a large group has been exposed and healthcare workers have been exposed and recovered, I see no reason to continue the quarantine. Thoughts?

I think even after healthcare has widespread immunity, you still have to work to prevent the system from being overwhelmed with patients. Everyone should have reasonable access to needed care. The problem here is that our system runs at 95% capacity in normal non-flu season times—it doesn’t take much to overwhelm it. At that rate, it would take over a decade to get herd immunity.

[meena]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Hm. This is interesting because it’s a different perspective. 
 

I don’t view the purpose of the quarantine to stop, avoid, or resolve the virus. I see the virus as an ever present, continually evolving virus, like the flu.  I see the quarantine as a solution to hospital capacity. As a novel virus, there is no one immune. The hospitals would be overwhelmed if we couldn’t slow the spread. Even as a high risk, very careful person (for now) I do not believe I can always avoid this virus. Exposure is inevitable. I just want to avoid getting it at the peak so I can ensure myself the best case scenario in the hospital.

Once a large group has been exposed and healthcare workers have been exposed and recovered, I see no reason to continue the quarantine. Thoughts?

I've thought the same as you regarding this quarantine period. But then I see people talking about not resuming activities until a vaccine is in place, which seems to be a very different benchmark. If we are operating in ways to flatten the curve (versus trying to eliminate chance of infection), I feel like schools should be able to resume in the fall but having rolling starts and modified schedules to reduce total number of students in a building at one time. I also think high schools, and possibly middle schools, should adopt a hybrid model, where students don't need to be on campus full-time. My local high school was already doing this before all of this started to reduce population on campus and prevent over-crowding. 

Everyone I've talked to IRL has been supportive of the quarantine in this area ending in early summer as long as our medical system is doing well. It's only on this message board and in some news articles that I've heard of people thinking that the quarantine will be extended until there is a vaccine and/or a way to ensure zero exposure. That doesn't seem realistic to me to change the intent of social measures from flattening the curve to disease eradication.

[Arcadia]

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/education/story/2020-04-16/uc-san-diego-might-stick-with-online-classes-this-fall-due-to-coronavirus-crisis

“UC San Diego Chancellor Pradeep Khosla said Thursday that the school might stick with online courses for the fall quarter due to the coronavirus, but that he doesn’t see it becoming a permanent arrangement. 

He said the University of California system is considering the option for its undergraduate campuses and that UC executives will make the final decision. 

“I think (staying with online) is completely within the realm of possibility,” said Khosla, whose school has nearly 39,000 students.

“We have not made a decision about the fall quarter yet. We are looking at multiple models and have activated a continuity of education task force, a continuity of research task force and are also working with public health experts to help inform such a decision in concert with the UC system.””

[SKL]

I know this is a summer/fall thread, but some folks are mentioning current school year, and I don't know where else to put this.

My kids' school has [finally] started posting grades for the "quarantine period" work.  (This is our 5th week out of school.)  So far, they are mostly getting 100% for participation (or so it seems).  A few grades came through as 75% (3 out of 4 possible) which may or may not mean incomplete work.

I hope nobody thinks these grades are meaningful.  My kid who got 100% on the online math test probably spent the entire day with the math book at her side just to get through that one (presumably multiple choice) test.  It doesn't mean she's gonna do great in math next year....

[Guest]

I told my parents that we will be online for piano for the summer session.  I follow the schools on closings and they are not reopening this year or doing summer school/summer camps except online, so it seems the right choice-and it avoids the questions as to whether the community center will reopen or not. I'm not happy about it, and I expect to lose even more students, but I think it's the least bad choice right now.

[meena]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've written that life won't return to normal until there is a vaccine. I don't think that's the same as extending the quarantine. A long term quarantine isn't realistic or sustainable. Based on what we know today (information keeps changing), it does not appear safe to resume activities that require crowded indoor spaces without herd immunity. I think children can return to school with some modifications to allow for less crowded conditions. Our children must be cared for and educated so it's unreasonable (IMHO) to require disease eradication before resuming school. 

But it's not unreasonable to avoid certain activities without a vaccine or herd immunity. Do we need to attend football games, concerts, plays? Is that as necessary as providing an education to our children? I don't think so. That's why I say life won't return to normal without a vaccine or herd immunity. Even if those events are allowed by the government, enough people will avoid them to have an impact. 

I guess I see it differently. The idea of flattening the curve is built on the notion that people will still be exposed and potentially ill, just in a manner that doesn't overwhelm health care systems to the point of not being able to treat people properly. I do think that testing needs to be more available and consistent, so that there's less mystery about who is asymptomatic and so those who are take proper precautions. Once testing becomes standard, I think people will be more open to attending public gatherings.

I disagree that those types of events aren't necessary for education. I feel like a huge part of education is participation in the human experience, including social and cultural events. Beyond that, there are so many large group experiences that bring book learning to life, that turn facts into knowledge. Events like mock trials, robotics competitions, 4-H/FFA shows, hands-on/lab classes, etc. I can't imagine how to modify or eliminate every variety of group events like that for as long as it will take to establish a vaccine or herd immunity.

[mathnerd]

18 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've written that life won't return to normal until there is a vaccine. I don't think that's the same as extending the quarantine. A long term quarantine isn't realistic or sustainable. Based on what we know today (information keeps changing), it does not appear safe to resume activities that require crowded indoor spaces without herd immunity. I think children can return to school with some modifications to allow for less crowded conditions. Our children must be cared for and educated so it's unreasonable (IMHO) to require disease eradication before resuming school. 

But it's not unreasonable to avoid certain activities without a vaccine or herd immunity. Do we need to attend football games, concerts, plays? Is that as necessary as providing an education to our children? I don't think so. That's why I say life won't return to normal without a vaccine or herd immunity. Even if those events are allowed by the government, enough people will avoid them to have an impact. 

Kids who are vulnerable (underlying conditions, asthma, immune disorders etc) are never going to be able to attend school even with "distancing" because they need vaccines. When schools say that they are going to "wipe surfaces frequently", that is a long shot because kids need to go to the bathroom all the time, kids put hands on their faces all the time (mine will not remember even if I explicitly tell him not to), teachers can have underlying conditions, cash starved school districts can not come up with more staff at short notice etc. So, how do we stop infection spread within a school and creating a closer of infections within each school as soon as we start in Fall? This disease is carried by asymptomatic carriers who can shed the virus to their surroundings. In the first week of March, when there was serious community spread in my area, I saw kids in my local PS crowding together on play structures, holding hands, few kids sharing a single laptop with all the kids putting hands on the keyboard etc. This was after there was heightened awareness in the community about the virus and reported deaths in the neighborhood. Reopening schools after flattening the curve sounds reasonable until the first child deaths or teacher deaths due to infection in schools hits the news. Nobody wants to see those things happening.

One idea that I came up with: since the weather will be great, why not hold classes outside in the Fall (wherever possible) for a few months? That could prevent spread from circulating air and buy us more time to come up with a vaccine.

[meena]

16 minutes ago, SKL said:

I know this is a summer/fall thread, but some folks are mentioning current school year, and I don't know where else to put this.

My kids' school has [finally] started posting grades for the "quarantine period" work.  (This is our 5th week out of school.)  So far, they are mostly getting 100% for participation (or so it seems).  A few grades came through as 75% (3 out of 4 possible) which may or may not mean incomplete work.

I hope nobody thinks these grades are meaningful.  My kid who got 100% on the online math test probably spent the entire day with the math book at her side just to get through that one (presumably multiple choice) test.  It doesn't mean she's gonna do great in math next year....

Good teachers know how to assess where students are realistically at. This is true even outside of the current circumstances. When I taught in a public school, I knew not all of my students were operating at their grade ability level even when they had made decent grades the previous years. I spent the first few weeks of class doing review and getting a feel for how the students were performing. I can imagine teachers this fall will spend plenty of time on review and assessment, knowing that this last quarter of the school year was not ideal. It would be great if schools could set up tutoring and/or small group learning protocols when school starts back for students who passed/earned participation grades during this time but really didn't learn all that much.

[HeartString]

11 minutes ago, meena said:

I guess I see it differently. The idea of flattening the curve is built on the notion that people will still be exposed and potentially ill, just in a manner that doesn't overwhelm health care systems to the point of not being able to treat people properly. I do think that testing needs to be more available and consistent, so that there's less mystery about who is asymptomatic and so those who are take proper precautions. Once testing becomes standard, I think people will be more open to attending public gatherings.

I disagree that those types of events aren't necessary for education. I feel like a huge part of education is participation in the human experience, including social and cultural events. Beyond that, there are so many large group experiences that bring book learning to life, that turn facts into knowledge. Events like mock trials, robotics competitions, 4-H/FFA shows, hands-on/lab classes, etc. I can't imagine how to modify or eliminate every variety of group events like that for as long as it will take to establish a vaccine or herd immunity.

The rate of hospitalization from this virus scares me.  As long as so many still need to be in the hospital for 2-4 weeks with a risk of long term damage after, we will be keeping social activities to a minimum.  I won't be going to a movie theater, sitting in a restaurant, or anything else like that until it feels safe.  Getting better care while spending 2-4 weeks in the hospital is not going to cut it.  My son loves doing his 4H archery and I'm not sure what we'll do about that.  Its inside a cramped area and distancing would be impossible.  I'm iffy on doing co-op too.  Those are the only 2 things I'm even considering and we don't have anyone high risk in our house.  I do worry about my husband, he has chronic Vitamin D deficiencies and tends to get sick more often that I do.  

We love all of those same group experiences that you mentioned, but we can take time off from them or figuring out to do them differently on a way that doesn't put us at risk.  I'm not saying they shouldn't happen. but I wouldn't feel comfortable participating unless there is a major break through in treatments and testing, and I can't be the only one.  Wide spread testing still won't catch the asymptomatic people, unless we expect people to just randomly get themselves checked, or require it to be done on a regular basis, neither of which I think is going to happen.   

[meena]

1 minute ago, Cnew02 said:

The rate of hospitalization from this virus scares me.  As long as so many still need to be in the hospital for 2-4 weeks with a risk of long term damage after, we will be keeping social activities to a minimum.  I won't be going to a movie theater, sitting in a restaurant, or anything else like that until it feels safe.  Getting better care while spending 2-4 weeks in the hospital is not going to cut it.  My son loves doing his 4H archery and I'm not sure what we'll do about that.  Its inside a cramped area and distancing would be impossible.  I'm iffy on doing co-op too.  Those are the only 2 things I'm even considering and we don't have anyone high risk in our house.  I do worry about my husband, he has chronic Vitamin D deficiencies and tends to get sick more often that I do.  

We love all of those same group experiences that you mentioned, but we can take time off from them or figuring out to do them differently on a way that doesn't put us at risk.  I'm not saying they shouldn't happen. but I wouldn't feel comfortable participating unless there is a major break through in treatments and testing, and I can't be the only one.  Wide spread testing still won't catch the asymptomatic people, unless we expect people to just randomly get themselves checked, or require it to be done on a regular basis, neither of which I think is going to happen.   

Are most hospitalizations lasting 2-4 weeks? The only person I know locally who has tested positive was not hospitalized and recovered at home; the total time from feeling sick to recovery was about 14 days. From the way his wife described it, he was very ill but not in serious distress to warrant going to the hospital. She's a nurse and he's a doctor, so I trust their judgment and descriptions. I've heard that those in the hospital don't remain there for the entire recovery period. I know that recovery times differ depending on other underlying issues, so I'm wondering about people who don't have risk factors.

If testing becomes widely and easily available, I could see it being required randomly in hot spots/areas of higher risk to catch asymptomatic carriers until vaccines are in place. I think a lot will also depend on if there are spikes of infections when activities start to begin again.

[Arcadia]

There are teachers among the fatalities 

https://abc7ny.com/coronavirus-teacher-deaths-nyc-update-corona-virus/6100157/

“NEW YORK CITY (WABC) -- Twenty-one New York City public school teachers are among the 50 Department of Education employees who have died of coronavirus, DOE said Monday.

"Our thoughts are with their families, loved ones, and school communities during this difficult time. Upon notification of each passing the DOE is providing school communities with the mental health and emotional supports to process these losses. We are also supporting staff in notifying their communities in the most appropriate way possible, while respecting the wishes of families," the DOE wrote in a statement.

As of April 10, 2020, the 50 employees who have passed as reported by their family members and loved ones:

22 are paraprofessionals
21 are teachers
2 are administrators
1 is a facilities staffer
1 is a guidance counselor
1 is a food service staffer
2 central office employees
1 employee listed above was also staffing a REC”

[HeartString]

38 minutes ago, meena said:

Are most hospitalizations lasting 2-4 weeks? The only person I know locally who has tested positive was not hospitalized and recovered at home; the total time from feeling sick to recovery was about 14 days. From the way his wife described it, he was very ill but not in serious distress to warrant going to the hospital. She's a nurse and he's a doctor, so I trust their judgment and descriptions. I've heard that those in the hospital don't remain there for the entire recovery period. I know that recovery times differ depending on other underlying issues, so I'm wondering about people who don't have risk factors.

If testing becomes widely and easily available, I could see it being required randomly in hot spots/areas of higher risk to catch asymptomatic carriers until vaccines are in place. I think a lot will also depend on if there are spikes of infections when activities start to begin again.

I haven’t seen new reporting saying it’s been shortened.  All of the reporting I have seen about hospitalization is that it’s needed I. somewhere between 10-20% of those who get it and that it’s a long disease.   
 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/clinical-guidance-management-patients.html

 

Among patients who developed severe disease, the medium time to dyspnea ranged from 5 to 8 days, the median time to acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) ranged from 8 to 12 days, and the median time to ICU admission ranged from 10 to 12 days.

 

 

Pardon the typos, typing on a phone is a pain.  

Edited April 17, 2020 by Cnew02

[Sneezyone]

30 minutes ago, meena said:

Are most hospitalizations lasting 2-4 weeks? The only person I know locally who has tested positive was not hospitalized and recovered at home; the total time from feeling sick to recovery was about 14 days. From the way his wife described it, he was very ill but not in serious distress to warrant going to the hospital. She's a nurse and he's a doctor, so I trust their judgment and descriptions. I've heard that those in the hospital don't remain there for the entire recovery period. I know that recovery times differ depending on other underlying issues, so I'm wondering about people who don't have risk factors.

If testing becomes widely and easily available, I could see it being required randomly in hot spots/areas of higher risk to catch asymptomatic carriers until vaccines are in place. I think a lot will also depend on if there are spikes of infections when activities start to begin again.

 

My uncle a ~65 YO white male has been in the hospital on/off a vent for the last two and a half weeks. Doctors are hopeful he will come off the vent in the next week. He was sick for 4-5 days before my aunt insisted that he go to the hospital. Those people who need to be hospitalized are typically there for quite some time.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, meena said:

I guess I see it differently. The idea of flattening the curve is built on the notion that people will still be exposed and potentially ill, just in a manner that doesn't overwhelm health care systems to the point of not being able to treat people properly. I do think that testing needs to be more available and consistent, so that there's less mystery about who is asymptomatic and so those who are take proper precautions. Once testing becomes standard, I think people will be more open to attending public gatherings.

I disagree that those types of events aren't necessary for education. I feel like a huge part of education is participation in the human experience, including social and cultural events. Beyond that, there are so many large group experiences that bring book learning to life, that turn facts into knowledge. Events like mock trials, robotics competitions, 4-H/FFA shows, hands-on/lab classes, etc. I can't imagine how to modify or eliminate every variety of group events like that for as long as it will take to establish a vaccine or herd immunity.

 

We are an opera/ballet/theater-going, gymnastics and cheer-competition attending, track and field loving family. We see these as 100% necessary for education purposes. We're also willing to delay these activities for however long we need to whether that's this fall or next spring.  My kids have had LOTS of experiences of this nature and that will continue when its safe to do so.

[meena]

8 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't believe that the events are "unnecessary" but they are not necessary all of the time. And if those events were actually necessary then everyone would be able attend and that's never been the case. 

It's hard to imagine but it's happened many times throughout history. We are ignorant of the need to modify our behavior because of a virus because of vaccines. My mother remembers needing to avoid certain activities as a child due to the polio epidemic. 

And what is the overall goal - to flatten the curve (good for society) or to protect your family and friends (really only matters to you)? If you attend a large crowded gathering and become exposed and then visit an elderly family member, you have just connected your elderly relative to everyone surrounding you at that gathering. That dramatically increases the risk to the elderly relative. I'm not comfortable with that risk so I will avoid crowded events. If enough people are also concerned, it will have an impact. 

I agree that people will be more open to attending these events if there is widespread and frequent testing available. That's not available today. And even if it was available, how do you know that everyone sitting around you at the movie theatre has tested negative? 

The polio virus was isolated in 1908 and the first large-scale vaccine trial was in 1954. People didn't avoid large gatherings for that entirety of time. Were there other types of community behavior modifications going on? My relatives have never shared anything about needing to do anything like that, so I don't really know much about those times. Polio is similar to Covid, in that it produces no or few symptoms in many of those infected, so there were asymptomatic carriers. Those who did show symptoms were quarantined. I'm curious to know how/what type of precautions communities took during those times.

As far as not knowing if people around have tested negative or not, well, you don't. But if testing is more available, more people will be tested more frequently. I've talked to and read about many people who have had a little cough or throat tickle and would have gladly been tested if they could just for the reassurance. If that starts occurring, people are going to know sooner and with more certainty and will be able to adjust their social behaviors right away. Quite a bit of community spread has been from people continuing to do their regular activities despite not feeling well because they didn't realize what they were walking around with. The doctor I mentioned above became ill because of a co-worker who attended a meeting despite not feeling well (this was early on, right before social distancing became a thing and it's allergy season so was easy to explain away symptoms on something else). I think people will have a better understanding now, that if they do get a positive, they need to stay home and recover. Not everyone will do that (my MIL is like that), but many will because we are being taught during this time to take having this sickness seriously. I do think that people who are in contact with someone at higher risk may need to more carefully consider their activities.

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, meena said:

I've thought the same as you regarding this quarantine period. But then I see people talking about not resuming activities until a vaccine is in place, which seems to be a very different benchmark. If we are operating in ways to flatten the curve (versus trying to eliminate chance of infection), I feel like schools should be able to resume in the fall but having rolling starts and modified schedules to reduce total number of students in a building at one time. I also think high schools, and possibly middle schools, should adopt a hybrid model, where students don't need to be on campus full-time. My local high school was already doing this before all of this started to reduce population on campus and prevent over-crowding. 

Everyone I've talked to IRL has been supportive of the quarantine in this area ending in early summer as long as our medical system is doing well. It's only on this message board and in some news articles that I've heard of people thinking that the quarantine will be extended until there is a vaccine and/or a way to ensure zero exposure. That doesn't seem realistic to me to change the intent of social measures from flattening the curve to disease eradication.

 

I haven't seen anyone here advocating zero exposure. I HAVE seen people waiting for adequate testing and contact tracking capacity.