Introduction and an odd question.

[LucyHoneychurch]

I came across The Well Trained Mind as part of research I was doing in grad school about alternative educational systems. I don’t yet have children, but I want to eventually homeschool them using a combination of classical ed and world/travel schooling. I’ve read threads here for a while and I joined as well because I recently graduated and got a job offer as a home educator (presently on hold and maybe kaput because of the virus situation, very bummed) and I am trying to aggregate information and ask questions as I create curricula and plans and organize activities for my students.

 

The off topic question is - now that I’m self-quarantining, I’ve been spending more time online and an internet forum I visit has recently become over-run with angry misogynists spouting quite a lot of nonsense that I’d like to address in a logical way, but I’m having some trouble because things like that upset me quite a lot. Which made me think of the emphasis on logic and good thinking here - even formal logic as something to teach. I’ve not yet taught formal logic, but I was curious if maybe someone with a good knowledge of fallacies (or just someone with a clearer head) could give feedback on some of the arguments they’re presenting? I know that a lot of it is incorrect but I’m in the odd position of not being able to really articulate precisely why or back it up factually maybe in part because the arguments themselves are difficult to follow and seem to rely on a frame of reference which I lack (I also don’t speak English natively so that might be part of it). I’m trying to view this as an opportunity to clarify my own stance because when I say MRAs are wrong to consider women evil and themselves oppressed victims I should know why clearly and be able to express it and back it up with sources/evidence,

But I also really don’t want to be incendiary and some of it is pretty vile and would normally need some sort of content warning. It also has literally nothing to do with homeschooling - only with bad/good thinking. I read that political posts are not permitted and I don’t know if misogyny then counts? I’m just really trying to put something together to say beyond what my friends would respond with which is just one—off dismissal or insult or saying “you are a misogynist/ horrible person” and leaving it at that. So I’m not sure if it would be appropriate to paste some of what their arguments are here to examine and respond to logically?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Welcome. 
 

I personally would rather you sanitize their arguments and present them as arguments rather than cut and pasting hateful things here, if you really must. But honestly?  You can’t argue someone out of misogyny. So if you don’t mind some advice from someone old enough to be your mama, you need to spend your time on different sites with better people. 

[Rosie_0801]

As a moderator around here, don't cut and past MRA vitriol here. I'll only delete it.

As Jean said, there's nothing you can do to make these people change their minds. Their emotions are lot stronger and more persistent than your logic. 

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

As a moderator around here, don't cut and past MRA vitriol here. I'll only delete it.

As Jean said, there's nothing you can do to make these people change their minds. Their emotions are lot stronger and more persistent than your logic. 

This is the key to understanding.

Humans in general are not nearly as logic-driven in our thinking as we like to imagine. And human reasoning tends to work backwards--we start with a conclusion we are inclined towards, usually for entirely logic free reasons, then we find a way to rationalize that conclusion.

And group think is a real thing--if you are hanging out somewhere where a bunch of folks are reinforcing each other's opinions, your lone attempts at reason aren't going to sway anyone's mind.

Frustrating I know.

Come hang out here instead.

Edited March 25, 2020 by maize

[LucyHoneychurch]

23 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Welcome. 
 

I personally would rather you sanitize their arguments and present them as arguments rather than cut and pasting hateful things here, if you really must. But honestly?  You can’t argue someone out of misogyny. So if you don’t mind some advice from someone old enough to be your mama, you need to spend your time on different sites with better people. 

Thank you! I think part of the issue is I can't quite understand where or what the argument is. Like, I know what it's supposed to show, but not how they get there. But it's a fairly point that they probably won't listen or care what any response to them is. And they're not really misogynistic sites, they're (usually) normal ones that this sort of thing has been creeping into. For instance, I got threats on a discussion forum about media usage during the Cold War?

[LucyHoneychurch]

14 minutes ago, maize said:

And group think is a real thing--if you are hanging out somewhere where a bunch of folks are reinforcing each other's opinions, your lone attempts at reason aren't going to sway anyone's mind.

Frustrating I know.

Come hang out here instead.

I think that's definitely part of it that they construct their online presence in a way that they rarely hear anything else. Thank you! And I will! I have been reading a lot of priors in the education board and I'm hoping it will make me a much better and effective teacher one day! I really admire the commitment to good thinking. 

[Lori D.]

Welcome!

You might find this short video from Smarter Every Day interesting: "How Trolls on Reddit Try and Manipulate You (Disinformation and How to Beat It)". It is the fourth in a series on the four big social media platforms (the first three were on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube).

Basically, it's pointless to engage with intentionally inflammatory/emotional rhetoric. Your best bets are to:
1. report if the content or the way the post is presented goes against the site's policies
2. do not engage (i.e. "don't feed the troll") by responding in kind or allowing yourself to get swept away by the emotional tactic

If you wish to continue to participate, then it means actively working to defuse the goal of that type of post. Goals of these extreme posts tend to be to shut down real conversation and sow chaos through:
- narrowing the conversation to a debate of just 2 extreme/black & white sides
- polarizing people via identity attacks
- escalating the language into emotional tirades and aggressive attacks

Continuing to participate could be done through NOT responding to the emotional/aggressive post, but adding new posts worded with kindness, calmness, and respect, that re-open the conversation with the wide range of views to keep it from being throttled down to 2-polar-opposite views, and emotional/aggressive attacks. Helping to keep others calm and re-focused on multi-faceted reality comprised of a multitude of views helps everyone stop "feeding the trolls". 😉 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Lori D.

[LucyHoneychurch]

15 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Misogyny exists broadly throughout society, and under pressure, people with those attitudes may find it more difficult to mask them.

 

Great point! I was especially puzzled by the recent uptick.

[LucyHoneychurch]

14 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Continuing to participate could be done through NOT responding to the emotional/aggressive post, but adding new posts worded with kindness, politeness, and respect, that re-open the conversation with the wide range of views to keep it from being throttled down to 2-polar-opposite views, and emotional/aggressive attacks. Helping to keep others calm and re-focused on multi-faceted reality comprised of a multitude of views helps everyone stop "feeding the trolls".

Thank you for the background and suggestions! That information is also really useful just generally as someone who engages with arguments on the internet (and in real life).

[MercyA]

Oh, my, this was me so often. Maybe I am wiser now, maybe more mellow, maybe just tired. 😉 

I still think some things are worth speaking up about, particularly when it involves those who can't speak for themselves. But I think it helps to not go into it with an argumentative frame of mind--I am RIGHT, and they are WRONG, and I will prove it. 😉It is better to think--I will share some truth and what they do with that is entirely up to them. 

Share information. No one has anything to fear from information. Share it gently and kindly. Plant seeds and they will grow on their own. Don't bombard people with lots of information. Their cognitive dissonance will cause their mind to shut down. A succinct, truthful, factual comment, gently shared here and there, can do much good.

Welcome to the forum!