Anyone want to talk about Falwell opening Liberty University back up?

[Ginevra]

I tell you one thing: if my college kid was enrolled there, they wouldn’t be anymore. (Or, if it’s an option, they would finish this year on-line and then move on.) I seriously cannot imagine what Falwell hopes to accomplish. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/us/liberty-university-reopens-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

 

[fairfarmhand]

My first thought in reading the title is “Falwell is still alive? Who knew?” He’s gotta be getting pretty old.

ETA:

aha. I googled. This is jerry Falwell senior.

Edited March 24, 2020 by fairfarmhand

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

My first thought in reading the title is “Falwell is still alive? Who knew?” He’s gotta be getting pretty old.

This is junior.

[regentrude]

What the hell are they thinking? And what is the point of bringing them all back if all instruction is conducted online anyway?

[G5052]

They have moved most of their classes online, but are offering that as an option. 

I polled my two college kids, and they said NO! They are not fond of online learning and say that some professors are not-so-great so far, but they'd rather stay away from the virus concerns. I'm guessing that many students and parents will feel the same. Out of an abundance of caution, I would pull a big "MOM SAYS NO" here if one of mine wanted to do that.

Thankfully their college is being wiser about it. 

[Terabith]

The faculty (who don't have tenure and are on year to year contracts and can be fired for things like complaining about parking) are required to host in person office hours and teach online classes from their offices.  But these young, healthy students who wind up needing hospitals are going to spread it throughout the community and have dibs on scarce resources in triage situations.

[gardenmom5]

25 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

My first thought in reading the title is “Falwell is still alive? Who knew?” He’s gotta be getting pretty old.

ETA:

aha. I googled. This is jerry Falwell senior.

I believe you mean Jr.  sr died.

[gardenmom5]

I think it's not going to end well.

but my son who is currently in university was already online for most things (and what wasn't was easy to switch).

[RootAnn]

Well, I don't agree with having them leave for Spring Break & then return to campus, but I could understand them offering to provide shelter & meals to those students who don't have a good home life, good internet, or somewhere else to go.

There are students like that & I believe kicking the kids off campus (separate from not having them return after spring break) caused more unnecessary travel (parents flying or driving to pack them up, for example).

If they were reopening to in person classes, I'd be more upset with them. As it is, I feel it is unwise, but there are probably some kids who are very grateful to have internet access in a room that they consider their "home" without more upheaval right now.

[katilac]

47 minutes ago, Quill said:

I seriously cannot imagine what Falwell hopes to accomplish. 

He hopes to accomplish not giving out any refunds: 

and for students to be able to return to their dorms and use the campus dining services that they paid for," the statement said

7 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

 but I could understand them offering to provide shelter & meals to those students who don't have a good home life, good internet, or somewhere else to go.

Other schools are accomplishing this via exemptions, rather than having all of the students return. 

[Renai]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

He hopes to accomplish not giving out any refunds: 

and for students to be able to return to their dorms and use the campus dining services that they paid for," the statement said

Other schools are accomplishing this via exemptions, rather than having all of the students return. 

All the students aren't returning though. It says they expect about 5000, out of 14000 or so (can't remember the exact number right now). Right now there's 1900 students there.

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, Renai said:

All the students aren't returning though. It says they expect about 5000, out of 14000 or so (can't remember the exact number right now). Right now there's 1900 students there.

That's by choice, though. If I read the article correctly, any and all of the students could have chosen to return. 

[Terabith]

Faculty don't have any choice about coming onto campus and having face to face meetings with students and other faculty.  

[katilac]

I hope they are at least spreading the students out, one to a room! Surely that would help somewhat? 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, katilac said:

I hope they are at least spreading the students out, one to a room! Surely that would help somewhat? 

Maybe, but in my non-authoritative opinion, part of what is bad about this is the message it send to an age group “we” have already felt doesn’t, as a collective, take this virus and it’s contagiousness seriously enough. There was already a ton of frustration about younger age groups being dismissive (and/or unaware) about the harm they could cause.

This is the wrong message. This is the wrong message! It’s right in line with the earlier rhetoric about, “it’s just the flu/mostly only old people get really sick or die.” 

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

How does this fit in with what the VA govt expects people to do?  

Asking.  

 

Virginia governor shut down everything that is not essential.  I honestly don't know how this is getting by, legally.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

How does this fit in with what the VA govt expects people to do?  

Asking.  

 

I wonder about this, too. Can they get around that because it is a Christian school? 

[Terabith]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

I wonder about this, too. Can they get around that because it is a Christian school? 

No, I don't think that's an exemption.  Churches aren't explicitly closed, although supposed to not have more than ten people together.  Virginia doesn't have an actual lockdown; it's more of a "non essential businesses" closed order.  I don't know how the dining hall is working, honestly.  

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

 I don't know how the dining hall is working, honestly.  

I was curious enough to check, and it's takeout only. 

[I talk to the trees]

As a Virginian, I am absolutely appalled by this! There is no way Northam should be allowing this! I will echo what was said above by a PP- The students who become sick and need critical care will be diverting necessary health resources from the area hospitals. Selfish brats! And to keep this board family-friendly, I think I’ll go for the Forrest Gump approach now with, “That’s all I have to say about that.”

[AngieC]

12 hours ago, ByeByeMartha said:

Wow, that's just very mean-spirited. 😥

 

Not really.  If *someone* has to get sick, I would rather is be a person who isn't following protocal than a person who is trying their best to follow it and then catches the infection from the someone who intentially is not.  The people at Liberty are not only putting themselves in danger, but they are putting everyone with whom they come in contact at risk, too.  And they don't have to, they're choosing to.

edited:  spelling

Edited March 25, 2020 by AngieC

[1shortmomto4]

I'm not sure why Liberty has been what seems like the only school in VA not to close for the semester and go to online learning but I've seen a lot of social media complaining about parents wanting refunds  for monies spent for the semester for housing and food.  At one point, they were telling students that if you didn't have a  course that required in-person learning (say nursing, PA - medical field) then they recommended that you not return and finish the courses online.  Something changed along the way but not sure what.  I will share that my ds graduated from there this past December and most of his senior courses were only offered online so why stay anyways?  They had way more offerings and strength in their online courses before it was a "thing" so not sure why the push not to return to that for now.  My dd, finishing her Masters at another VA school (GMU), went all online and the students have to be signed in and basically on camera during the full course time.  They also tacked on another week of class work to make up for the extra week of Spring break they took to get things in order to teach online.  They don't have a big online course system but maybe now they just might develop one.

Their student health system is abysmal, to put it nicely.  My ds had to visit twice over the 2 years he was there and they couldn't diagnose an ear infection!  They would, in no way, be prepared for any kind of outbreak.  And the excuse for internet - theirs is shoddy at best but perhaps with much less students using it then it might be able to handle the demand.  My only guess is they had issues with the numerous foreign students who are on visas studying at the school; that could be the real issue.

They don't have any financial problems as can be seen from their social media posts this week - they showcased two new big buildings (one is a basketball sports complex) they were opening in the Fall. 

The optics of how this playing out is not good, not good at all.

And the Governor closed all elementary/high schools - public and private but didn't say a word about colleges.

[ThisIsTheDay]

17 hours ago, Patty Joanna said:

How does this fit in with what the VA govt expects people to do?  

Asking.  

 

 

17 hours ago, Terabith said:

Virginia governor shut down everything that is not essential.  I honestly don't know how this is getting by, legally.

"Essential" in Virginia includes any department store that sells groceries (hello Target and Walmart!), liquor stores, home improvement stores (Lowe's!), auto repair/maintenance stores, garden centers, pet and seed supply stores, just for starters. Businesses that don't qualify as "essential" can open if they limit the number to 10 and maintain a 6' distance. That means something like Yankee Candle could potentially remain open; my nail salon cannot, since they can't maintain a 6' distance. And of course grocery stores have zero limits, all restaurants are open for carryout/delivery, and liquor laws have been relaxed to permit curbside service.

Imo, that's not really "shut down."

16 hours ago, I talk to the trees said:

As a Virginian, I am absolutely appalled by this! There is no way Northam should be allowing this! I will echo what was said above by a PP- The students who become sick and need critical care will be diverting necessary health resources from the area hospitals. Selfish brats! And to keep this board family-friendly, I think I’ll go for the Forrest Gump approach now with, “That’s all I have to say about that.”

There is a limit on what Northam gets to "allow." "Selfish brats"? Get a grip and show some compassion. As in any school, there is a significant number of students who have limited options for a variety of reasons. At my son's school, international students must receive a waiver to remain on campus. Where else are they supposed to go? Not every student has a bedroom open at mom and dad's waiting for them to return home. What about students that didn't leave for spring break to begin with? They might be very well funding their education by working on or off campus, and to leave would cause undue hardship. Since groups of 10+ are prohibited, classes continue online only. Dorm rooms certainly have less than ten people. And plenty of students continue to live off campus, wherever they go to college. They are not returning "home." They are already at home.

[Guest]

On 3/27/2020 at 12:49 PM, myblessings4 said:

According to friends who still live in the area, there isn't nearly as much activity or presence on campus as the governor or media has led everyone to believe, and no more than at any other school in Virginia that has a good amount of international students.  

Medicmom, sorry they're not addressing those issues.  Hopefully they will catch up.

This is not an attempt to take up for Falwell or not.  While from there, we have never been Falwell fans, but haven't really had anything against the school.

Well, I believe all of VA is now under SAH order? Until June. Isn’t that right? So I don’t understand how any college, business, group, team or whatever could flout that order. 

[Bootsie]

Totally shutting down universities and dorms is much more complicated than it sounds on the surface.  I am not sure what the percentage of their on campus student body is international, but it can be difficult for those students to return to their home.  For some universities, the vast majority of the dorm students can return to their home within a few hours drive.  For other schools, the majority of the students have to catch flights to go home.  This is complicated by the fact of whether they will come back to actually move out of the dorm at some point.  Some students have jobs that provide essential services in the town where they are attending college.  

I do not know the setup for the dorms at this particular school, but many dorms now either have private rooms with baths or suite type of arrangements with a private room and sharing the bath with one or two more people (if the dorm is full).  It is unclear that students in these types of dorm rooms are not able to practice social distancing more than they would be if they had to travel the their parents' house and share the living space with mom, dad, and several siblings.

[Farrar]

You all saw that LU students have tested positive for CV since he re-opened, right?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/liberty-university-coronavirus-student-positive-jerry-falwell-jr

[Bootsie]

26 minutes ago, Farrar said:

You all saw that LU students have tested positive for CV since he re-opened, right?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/liberty-university-coronavirus-student-positive-jerry-falwell-jr

One student has tested positive.  One negative.  And one does not have results.  The article also states that this student did not live on campus.  The situation that student is living in may be the student's "home."   

[livetoread]

All universities have had to figure out what to do about international students. AFAIK, no others have said any student is welcome back after spring break. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html
Mr. Falwell initially said only international students or those with nowhere else to go would remain. Then he welcomed back a much larger group of about 1,900 students to campus housing last week, in addition to faculty members and staff. Others returned to off-campus rentals in Lynchburg.

 

Students who remained at home had to return last week to clean out their rooms, a requirement that was later relaxed. Faculty members were at first ordered back to campus, even though they would be teaching online. Then some were allowed to work from home.

Mr. Falwell also waffled on whether the school would issue refunds to students who did not return for the semester, before announcing on Friday that most would receive a $1,000 credit for next year’s bills.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by livetoread

[AngieC]

4 minutes ago, livetoread said:

All universities have had to figure out what to do about international students. AFAIK, no others have said any student is welcome back after spring break. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html
Mr. Falwell initially said only international students or those with nowhere else to go would remain. Then he welcomed back a much larger group of about 1,900 students to campus housing last week, in addition to faculty members and staff. Others returned to off-campus rentals in Lynchburg.

 

Students who remained at home had to return last week to clean out their rooms, a requirement that was later relaxed. Faculty members were at first ordered back to campus, even though they would be teaching online. Then some were allowed to work from home.

Mr. Falwell also waffled on whether the school would issue refunds to students who did not return for the semester, before announcing on Friday that most would receive a $1,000 credit for next year’s bills.

 

 

I was just coming here to say the same thing.  The big difference between Liberty and most other univereities is that Liberty opened to anyone, regardless of their need, while most universities closed to all except those who had no other choice.

One of the students at Liberty who was tested for Covid was was told to self quarantine pending results and chose to go home instead - if the student could go home that easily, why were they ever allowed back in the first place?

Edited March 31, 2020 by AngieC
clarification

[Chris in VA]

My daughter told me the newest order closes all colleges and unis.

[1shortmomto4]

Perhaps getting more info from the actual source might be helpful:  only 1 has tested positive and 1 pending.

https://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&mid=379372

 

[Farrar]

At least a couple of the articles I saw about this said that a dozen students had symptoms. We all know how hard it is to get tested. It's just irresponsible. Monday's state Virginia order should shut them down this time.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, 1shortmomto4 said:

Perhaps getting more info from the actual source might be helpful:  only 1 has tested positive and 1 pending.

https://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&mid=379372

 

Does the lead physician at Liberty University count as an "actual source"? Because he has been quoted as saying that 12 students showed symptoms and were quarantined, yet only 3 have been tested. What happened to the other 9? Were they among the 800 students, out of the 1900 who returned to campus, who chose to go back home? If so, then they could spread it in their communities, but any positive test results wouldn't appear in Liberty's statistics.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Corraleno

[KungFuPanda]

Will parents continue to send their kids there once it becomes clear that the guy in charge can't even grasp the concept of exponential growth?  

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Will parents continue to send their kids there once it becomes clear that the guy in charge can't even grasp the concept of exponential growth?  

I'm pretty sure LU is one of those Christian institutions that opposes some types of mathematical modeling. So I'm thinking it's a feature, not a bug.

[I talk to the trees]

All of the the state universities somehow managed to take care of international students and dealt with the logistics of getting students off campus into safer situations. Even the behemoth that is Virginia Tech managed to move all classes online, with only a week of additional break. Why can’t LU? Oh, yeah, I forgot. The answer to any question which starts with “Why don’t they ...”  is invariably “Money.”  DD’s college is in the process of issuing refunds to students for room and board. Falwell doesn’t  want to let a penny slip away. 

The thing that is both heartbreaking and maddening is that when those students that made the CHOICE to go back onto campus get critically ill, they will be a burden to the healthcare system which should be taking care of first responders, healthcare workers, and elderly/high risk populations. Yes I am angry that such reckless stupidity exists so close to home. 

[1shortmomto4]

The Liberty physician? from the health center?  If that is so, trust me, he was unable to diagnose an ear infection - twice.  After the students returned from break they identified 4 students who had come from NY - they told them they had to go home or be quarantined - 2 went home, 2 went into quarantine.  They then identified 7 students that had been around those 4 and told them - go home or go into quarantine.  They went into quarantine.  None have shown symptoms.  None have been tested.  There were 3 students - all living off campus that have been tested.  1 negative, 1 positive and 1 still unknown.  Only 1 student actually visited that health center with any symptoms and only because he had established a doctor/patient relationship - he is a graduate student who has, since the fall lived off campus.  There was a news story by the NYT I believe stating that 11 were sick with symptoms but that just wasn't the case.  I'm not in favor or against.  Everyone has their own opinions but I do believe there has been a fair amount of false reporting on this situation and it is just fueling panic and anger which isn't helpful to anyone.  I've seen one to many stories making its rounds on the internet written by big news corporations that later are proven to be false or exaggerated. 

As for the new governor's orders - nothing has really changed.  This is not going to be a big change on how Liberty is proceeding.  People can still go to the stores, etc. and move around but not supposed to be in groups.  Should cut down your shopping, etc. No beaches, parks, etc. but these were very same recommendations 2 weeks ago but now the police can be called and they can give you a ticket/fine/jail.  After the Governor announced the stay at home orders people got in their cars and headed out to all the stores.  I had no seen that much traffic for 2 weeks until 2 hours after that news conference.  I had to pick up my ds who works at one of those big box stores and the place was full and people couldn't follow the signs to stand on the round dot to keep your distance, wait until the cashier calls you, etc.  Customers were impatient as cashiers tried to wipe down surfaces before the next customer.  It sure has brought the worst out in us - in the stores at least.

[Bootsie]

31 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Will parents continue to send their kids there once it becomes clear that the guy in charge can't even grasp the concept of exponential growth?  

I don't know all of the facts of who is on campus and what is opened, but I don't see how this conclusion can be drawn from what is available.  First, the student who has tested positive was said to live off campus.  Second, there is no indication of when and where the student was exposed.  Third, if there was an exposure while still on campus, there may have been MORE transmission if these students were traveling to what some would consider their home, interacting with their families, and their families spreading broader in more communities

[Terabith]

I originally was slightly sympathetic to Liberty, because of international students and the like, but then I read that in addition to those (and other students who just wanted to come back), that they were requiring students to do projects that required resources that are only available online (machine shop, etc), and certain classes were continuing to meet in person....(aeronautics, fine arts, nursing, etc).  And, I don't know how you deal with those types of classes, but not only are they not allowing students to drop classes without having to pay back financial aid, but other schools have figured out alternatives to those classes.  So there were a sizable number of students who might not have wanted to return to campus but were sort of stuck with needing to return in order to complete classwork.  Originally Liberty said those classes weren't exceeding 100 (and before that limit came down, they were refusing to cancel classes period), but now that the limit is ten, I don't know how that impacts things.  

[Bootsie]

36 minutes ago, I talk to the trees said:

All of the the state universities somehow managed to take care of international students and dealt with the logistics of getting students off campus into safer situations. Even the behemoth that is Virginia Tech managed to move all classes online, with only a week of additional break. Why can’t LU? Oh, yeah, I forgot. The answer to any question which starts with “Why don’t they ...”  is invariably “Money.”  DD’s college is in the process of issuing refunds to students for room and board. Falwell doesn’t  want to let a penny slip away. 

The thing that is both heartbreaking and maddening is that when those students that made the CHOICE to go back onto campus get critically ill, they will be a burden to the healthcare system which should be taking care of first responders, healthcare workers, and elderly/high risk populations. Yes I am angry that such reckless stupidity exists so close to home. 

Did all of the state universities in Virginia really manage to take care of all of their international students (which from the rest of the post I would assume means get them off campus)?  I know in my state that has not been possible.  I doubt that all students who have been moved off campus are in safer situations.  I know talking to my college students that I have some who left a campus apartment they shared with one roommate to travel (increase their exposure and the exposure they brought to others) to now be in a house with a sibling who came home from New York (also traveling), and mom and dad, and younger brother.  Going on to a college campus does not make one ill and staying off of a campus does not keep someone from getting critically ill.  

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I don't know all of the facts of who is on campus and what is opened, but I don't see how this conclusion can be drawn from what is available.  First, the student who has tested positive was said to live off campus.  Second, there is no indication of when and where the student was exposed.  Third, if there was an exposure while still on campus, there may have been MORE transmission if these students were traveling to what some would consider their home, interacting with their families, and their families spreading broader in more communities

As I understand it, with the exception of the international students who remained on campus, the 1900 students who returned to campus after spring break were already either home or had been traveling elsewhere. Those students — some of whom had been in hotspots like NY — were invited to come back to campus for the rest of the semester, and then 800 of the 1900 who came back to campus later decided to return home again. So by encouraging students who were already home to come back to campus, while nearly every other college was shutting down and sending as many students as possible home, he greatly increased the amount of travel involved and the number of people potentially exposed. 

 

[Farrar]

As I understand it, Monday's Virginia order is like ours here and adds teeth to the prohibition on non-essential businesses remaining open and having employees or students physically report. They could be fined by the state. They absolutely should be if they keep kids or staff on campus who don't absolutely have to be there.

[Reefgazer]

On 3/24/2020 at 5:29 PM, regentrude said:

What the hell are they thinking? And what is the point of bringing them all back if all instruction is conducted online anyway?

So they can say classes aren't cancelled and they don't have to pay out refunds for room and board.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

As I understand it, Monday's Virginia order is like ours here and adds teeth to the prohibition on non-essential businesses remaining open and having employees or students physically report. They could be fined by the state. They absolutely should be if they keep kids or staff on campus who don't absolutely have to be there.

I don't know about Virginia, but in some states "institutions of higher education" are considered essential services.  I do not know in this situation that the are requiring students to report.  I really cannot understand why it is so much more of a risk for a person to be physically present on a property that is designated a college campus, simply because it is a campus, than it is for that same person to be physically present in a crowded apartment complex.  

[Corraleno]

39 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I really cannot understand why it is so much more of a risk for a person to be physically present on a property that is designated a college campus, simply because it is a campus, than it is for that same person to be physically present in a crowded apartment complex.  

Most dorms, including at Liberty, have bedrooms that accommodate 2-4 people, with communal bathrooms and living spaces, and no kitchen (or one kitchen for the entire dorm). Even in suite-style rooms, where anywhere from 2-8 students share a bathroom, living spaces are generally shared with larger groups. Any student without access to a kitchen is going to be relying on daily take-out from dining halls, which adds multiple opportunities for exposure and infection every day, while a student in an apartment with a private kitchen and living room can limit outside exposure to an occasional grocery run.

 My son lived in a dorm as a freshman, and he was sick all the time — he had multiple cases of respiratory infections and stomach bugs throughout the year. This past year he lived in an apartment off campus and he had one mild cold.  Many apartment buildings in his area are only one or two stories, with direct entry from the outside, so those people wouldn't necessarily have any contact with neighbors, and even those in high-rise buildings wouldn't need to do more than push an elevator button with an elbow (or take the stairs) and touch the handle of the front door. Students in dorms with communal bathrooms and living spaces have no control over the numbers of people that touch the things they need to touch multiple times a day — and if the assumptions about aerosolized feces causing infection are true, that's a huge risk for those sharing bathrooms with lots of other people.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Corraleno

[Denise Still in Florida]

On 3/24/2020 at 10:00 PM, ByeByeMartha said:

Wow, that's just very mean-spirited. 😥

Mean spirited yes, but accurate. He is choosing to put these students and his employees at unnecessary risk. If the virus spreads through campus it would be no less than he deserves if he gets it too. 

[JennyD]

A Liberty student is suing to recover fees for campus activities and services.  

[mumto2]

7 hours ago, JennyD said:

A Liberty student is suing to recover fees for campus activities and services.  

I know there is some serious protesting at my kid’s Uni to recover fees as well.  So I think it is probably a thing at most Universities.....have to wonder why the student at liberty skipped right to suing. I suspect they will eventually refund the activity fees etc.  

We(parents) just received our refund for season baseball tickets.

[mom31257]

Our alma mater, Lee University, is refunding portions of the dorm fee and meal plan fee. I can't believe they wouldn't do that! 

 

[Guest]

Meanwhile, my daughter's Community college refunded, as far as I can tell, the entire student fees for the semester. Which really aren't high-I think it's about $25/credit hour.