disobeying social distancing, or not.

[gardenmom5]

35 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Gardenmom, did you see last night on the news that your city now has a place on the city app to report large gatherings of people?  Their purpose for this is to keep people from calling 911 for things like that. 

OK jean - here's the link from the local paper about what this really is.

eta: if you'd like to link your news article, that would be more helpful, because I'm not seeing anything about people being encouraged to turn each other in.

I could see them making an app/having a phone# just to get complainers off 911.  the police don't want to arrest anyone or hand out tickets.  they're making it clear that would only be an extreme response.  

Edited March 28, 2020 by gardenmom5

[DesertBlossom]

10 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Gardenmom, did you see last night on the news that your city now has a place on the city app to report large gatherings of people?  Their purpose for this is to keep people from calling 911 for things like that. 

Personally, I think encouraging people to turn each other in for being in groups is every bit as scary as this pandemic.

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Personally, I think encouraging people to turn each other in for being in groups is every bit as scary as this pandemic.

kinda makes you think of the earliest days of communist countries.

 

though there is a lot of video coming out of Italy of the mayors of various towns going around yelling at people in parks, etc. to go home.  some of them are calm, some are clearly desperate and very passionate.

eta: I have found nothing on any official pages from my city about people being encouraged to turn in their neighbors for congregating.  

Edited March 28, 2020 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

In Italy - people do have to have papers saying they're allowed to be out.  It came up on one woman's youtube video of the things she wished she knew to prepare before they were locked down. - to have extra printer cartridges and paper for printing those papers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

31 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

OK jean - here's the link from the local paper about what this really is.

This is a more specific link about the app.  https://patch.com/washington/bellevue/bellevue-police-ask-neighbors-report-stay-home-violations

[Murphy101]

On 3/27/2020 at 7:41 AM, Where's Toto? said:

I think part of the problem is the concept is easy but the execution isn't necessarily, even for those of us who aren't social  

Plus...

IF I didn't have high risk people in my family (including me, asthma) and 

IF dh didn't work in pharmaceuticals and was already seeing the difficulties in getting API and supplies a month ago and

IF we didn't both have a decent understanding of the science behind it (him chemistry and statistics, me biology) and 

IF we weren't watching the news and hearing about what's happening in other areas on here and

IF we weren't in an area that's being hit pretty hard and did early lockdowns, but especially if I was in an area where the people in charge were being wishy-washy....

It may be easy to convince myself it was no big deal and the restrictions were just suggestions and there was no reason to not continue on with those activities that aren't against the law.

This is my entire state right now.😖

[DesertBlossom]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

In Italy - people do have to have papers saying they're allowed to be out.  It came up on one woman's youtube video of the things she wished she knew to prepare before they were locked down. - to have extra printer cartridges and paper for printing those papers.

Most people I interact with on social media are posting about their social isolation and coping fairly well. I understand that some people don't think this is a big deal. But when you have to get permission from your government to leave the house.... it's mind blowing. And really, it ought to bother people that the government is asking people to turn each other in.

[DesertBlossom]

56 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

kinda makes you think of the earliest days of communist countries. 

Years ago I read Left to Tell by Immaculée Ilibagiza. It's her story of the Rwandaan genocide. One of the most shocking thing to me was how quickly neighbors turned against neighbors and slaughtered them!!  I know this is not that. But the government encouraging citizens to turn on each other is not the direction we need to be heading. Even a little bit.

[Sneezyone]

So, yeah, can you imagine your grandparents reporting misuse of ration coupons in wartime? Were there penalties and social shame associated with misusing scarce resources? YES. I blame, AGAIN, the lack of civics education in this country. Public health emergencies are akin to war and government is afforded similar powers during those times. This may come as a shock to people but these powers have always been available. The best way to not get named, shamed, and shunned out of town is to, as Spike Lee said, do the right thing.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

 

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

kinda makes you think of the earliest days of communist countries.

 

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

Personally, I think encouraging people to turn each other in for being in groups is every bit as scary as this pandemic.

Asking people to report large gatherings that put people's lives at risk, so that police can tell those people to go home, is just as scary as a pandemic that is overwhelming hospital systems and killing thousands of people, including many doctors and healthcare practitioners? Seriously???

No one is suggesting anyone report their neighbor for walking a dog or a family for riding bikes together. No one is being arrested. The city just wants to know if large gatherings are happening, in defiance of the governor's orders, so police can break them up. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

Personally, I think encouraging people to turn each other in for being in groups is every bit as scary as this pandemic.

Really? Should people also not report, say a drunk driver? Or a domestic abuse situation happening in their view? Or a robbery they witness? People getting together in groups are going to KILL people. I'd say that is even worse than if they were just breaking into a car to steal a purse! But no one would say it was scary that people are encouraged to report a robbery if they see one. 

10 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Years ago I read Left to Tell by Immaculée Ilibagiza. It's her story of the Rwandaan genocide. One of the most shocking thing to me was how quickly neighbors turned against neighbors and slaughtered them!!  I know this is not that. But the government encouraging citizens to turn on each other is not the direction we need to be heading. Even a little bit.

Um, if we want to survive, it is. Killing your neighbor is NOTHING like reporting your neighbor to save his life or the lives of others. It is much more like calling the police to report a drunk driver or child abuse or domestic abuse. Of course, plenty of people think we shouldn't get involved in that stuff either, but I'd hope not here. If I see a group of young adults having a volleyball game, say 20 of them, when we are supposed to be on stay at home orders and people are dying because of that kind of selfishness? Yeah, I'm going to report it. 

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So, yeah, can you imagine your grandparents reporting misuse of ration coupons in wartime? We’re there penalties and social shame associated with misusing scarce resources? YES. I blame, AGAIN, the lack of civics education in this country. Public health emergencies are akin to war and government is afforded similar powers during those times. This may come as a shock to people but these powers have always been available. The best way to not get named, shamed, and stunned out of town is to, as Spike Lee said, do the right thing.

Seriously. That lack of attention to how this is a patriotic duty to stay home is weird to me. Should have been framed that way from the start. 

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, ByeByeMartha said:

In some states, basketball courts are roped off and tennis courts are locked. But--hey liquor stores and pot shops are open! 🙄

How can you play basketball while staying 6' away from everyone else on the court?

As long as people at the liquor store and dispensaries are staying 6' away while purchasing, and then are going home to self-medicate in isolation, I don't see any issue with that. Its no different from buying groceries.

[Jean in Newcastle]

18 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Years ago I read Left to Tell by Immaculée Ilibagiza. It's her story of the Rwandaan genocide. One of the most shocking thing to me was how quickly neighbors turned against neighbors and slaughtered them!!  I know this is not that. But the government encouraging citizens to turn on each other is not the direction we need to be heading. Even a little bit.

Nope.  This isn't anything even remotely like that . The police were getting 911 calls.  They needed to stop that.  If they get notified via the app AND if they have time, they will go and do some education of the public on the very real  need to social distance. 

[DesertBlossom]

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So, yeah, can you imagine your grandparents reporting misuse of ration coupons in wartime? We’re there penalties and social shame associated with misusing scarce resources? YES. I blame, AGAIN, the lack of civics education in this country. Public health emergencies are akin to war and government is afforded similar powers during those times. This may come as a shock to people but these powers have always been available. The best way to not get named, shamed, and stunned out of town is to, as Spike Lee said, do the right thing.

Do you assume that everything the government asks you to do is morally right?

[DesertBlossom]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Really? Should people also not report, say a drunk driver? Or a domestic abuse situation happening in their view? Or a robbery they witness? People getting together in groups are going to KILL people. I'd say that is even worse than if they were just breaking into a car to steal a purse! But no one would say it was scary that people are encouraged to report a robbery if they see one. 

Um, if we want to survive, it is. Killing your neighbor is NOTHING like reporting your neighbor to save his life or the lives of others. It is much more like calling the police to report a drunk driver or child abuse or domestic abuse. Of course, plenty of people think we shouldn't get involved in that stuff either, but I'd hope not here. If I see a group of young adults having a volleyball game, say 20 of them, when we are supposed to be on stay at home orders and people are dying because of that kind of selfishness? Yeah, I'm going to report it. 

Seriously. That lack of attention to how this is a patriotic duty to stay home is weird to me. Should have been framed that way from the start. 

Getting together in groups MIGHT result in spreading COVID which MIGHT result in someone's death. But it's not a given. This not even remotely comparable to drunk driving or domestic abuse.

There's a difference between telling people they have a patriotic duty to stay home and charging people with a misdemeanor for gathering at a park.

Edited March 28, 2020 by DesertBlossom

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, ByeByeMartha said:

You can shoot hoops by yourself or with your own son or daughter.

I don't see liquor stores and pot shops as necessary in a time like this. (Frankly I don't see them as necessary at all but that's just me.) People aren't allowed to gather outside of their family (family also=people they live with) so this could encourage some people to drink alone.

No one is saying you can't shoot hoops by yourself or with your kids, are they? It is groups that are being reported. 

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

There's a difference between telling people they have a patriotic duty to stay home and charging people with a misdemeanor for gathering at a park.

Right, and if the former worked, no one would have to resort to the latter. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Getting together in groups MIGHT result in spreading COVID which MIGHT result in someone's death. But it's not a given. This not even remotely comparable to drunk driving or domestic abuse.

There's a difference between telling people they have a patriotic duty to stay home and charging people with a misdemeanor for gathering at a park.

Did you read the link? They are not arresting people or charging them.

As the reports are filed, the app will show officers hotspots throughout the city.

“As officers are available, they will respond to these reports and use this opportunity to inform and educate people about the state’s stay-at-home mandate,” explains Major Andrew Popochock, who oversees the patrol division.

“We are not going to arrest people; we are educating them to stay home. The ‘Stay home, stay healthy’ mandate is for everyone’s safety,” Popochock added.

These are informational reports only and officers will respond on an availability basis.

[DesertBlossom]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

Right, and if the former worked, no one would have to resort to the latter. 

I disagree then on what the government has the right to do to its people. 

[DesertBlossom]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Did you read the link? They are not arresting people or charging them.

 

 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/03/25/summit-county-orders/

"Anyone who violates the order can be charged with a Class B misdemeanor. In Utah, that is punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $1,000."

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/03/25/summit-county-orders/

"Anyone who violates the order can be charged with a Class B misdemeanor. In Utah, that is punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $1,000."

Bellevue is not in Utah. . Linking random laws to random counties that have nothing to do with what I referenced or linked to is. . .  what. . . disingenuous at best. 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, ByeByeMartha said:

Yes, they are. You are not allowed to shoot hoops at the public basketball court. They are roped off with signs saying you are not allowed to enter.

No one has a right to play basketball whenever and wherever they want. It is unfortunate that people couldn't follow the social distancing rules, and ruined it for those that would. But if they close my pool down due to contamination with a bacteria or something, that doesn't mean they are violating my rights. Closing down a public space where people are violating the directives to social distance, in order to save lives during a time of a global pandemic, is not particularly outrageous. One will have to practice passing drills, dribbling, etc at home or on the public sidewalks. 

4 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I disagree then on what the government has the right to do to its people. 

Obvoiusly. But in general, enforcing regulations is one of the things governments do. I think you are upset with the directive, not the enforcement of it maybe? That it should have just been a suggestion, not a requirement?

In my area the CAN fine people, but flat out said they will be warning people, and only if people refuse to disperse would it resort to fines. 

[ktgrok]

And yes, that particular gathering may or may not end up making someone sick. But that could be said of drunk driving - plenty of people do it and don't end up hurting anyone - they get lucky. We still arrest them. 

[Sneezyone]

23 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Do you assume that everything the government asks you to do is morally right?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. This is tho. No question.

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I disagree then on what the government has the right to do to its people. 

Take it up with the Constitution and SCOTUS.

[Sneezyone]

A homeschooling mama I know of is PG with her seventh child, in Maine of all places, is a presumptive positive and having trouble breathing and speaking. What is it going to take to put others before self?

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, ByeByeMartha said:

I pay taxes for all these parks and services. But I realize that a govt that gives you something is the same govt that can take it away. I understand thoroughly what is going on and my family and I are extremely law-abiding citizens. I just think some "rules" have been taken much too far and will affect people's health negatively. While social-distancing is wise and will save lives from COVID-19, I think a lot of people will suffer loss in health as a result of staying indoors for extended periods of time--such as: increased anxiety, depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, Type 2 Diabetes, asthma, allergies, etc.  (not to mention what happens to the mental & physical health of the unemployed segment of the population). We make jokes about the "Quarantine 15" but in reality it's no laughing matter. Too many people are very unhealthy in our country as it is. 

Clearly you haven’t seen videos of Chinese folks jumping rope in their apartments, putting on family plays, doing viral dance challenges, etc. Nope, these things aren’t enough for everyone, but there are ways to stay healthy and productive with calisthenic exercises done at home. Sit-ups, push-ups, running in place, etc. Most of us can even do these things outside in a small yard too.

[Murphy101]

If we want to claim not obeying shelter in place/social distancing is some kind of educated civics lesson then I’m game for that. 

If fighting Covid is a war, and it is in more ways than not, people selfish enough to knowingly do things we know significantly raises the risk of the invasion spreading and have warned against doing for that reason, sounds like treason in war time to me. Having their business license revoked or a cop or neighbor yelling at them from 6ft away to go the hell home seems a pretty tame response to a treasonous act that could kill me or my husband. 

They can take their bs claim of “their rights to do whatever they want” and shove it. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Murphy101

[DesertBlossom]

12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

A homeschooling mama I know of is PG with her seventh child, in Maine of all places, is a presumptive positive and having trouble breathing and speaking. What is it going to take to put others before self?

I am really sorry to hear this. That is awful. From what I understand all of this social distancing and staying at home is meant to "flatten the curve" so as not to overwhelm the hospitals. But this will continue to spread and a lot of people are going to get sick. It's an unfortunate fact. Using one person's illness as proof of other's selfishness isn't really fair. 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I am really sorry to hear this. That is awful. From what I understand all of this social distancing and staying at home is meant to "flatten the curve" so as not to overwhelm the hospitals. But this will continue to spread and a lot of people are going to get sick. It's an unfortunate fact. Using one person's illness as proof of other's selfishness isn't really fair. 

Each and every additional infection post-social distancing requests, pleas, orders is proof of someone’s selfishness.

[DesertBlossom]

.

Edited March 28, 2020 by DesertBlossom

[DesertBlossom]

4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

 Deliberately giving someone your life-threatening contagious disease is a felony in some places, a misdemeanor in others.   Fair has nothing to do with attempted murder.

 

Is there proof that it was deliberate? Honest question. 

[DesertBlossom]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Each and every additional infection post-social distancing requests, pleas, orders is proof of someone’s selfishness.

So you are expecting the social distancing to eliminate COVID completely, assuming we do it long enough?  Do you have a source for this? Are there doctors and scientists saying this as well? 

[Murphy101]

It is not like that pg woman is the only person with Covid!?

Every person who doesn’t stay home risks spreading this faster and to more people. That’s a fact.

The more people stay home, the slower it will spread and the fewer people it will spread to. That’s a fact. 

The drs and hospitals can only treat so many people.  That’s a fact.

Medical professionals are not immune, so there will be waves where they go down to Covid and there’s even less people to help at the hospital. That’s a fact.

While I or my husband or some of my kids, or millions of others, might die of Covid no matter what availability there is at the hospital, the chances of our survival is significantly, exponentially, higher if we can get medical care.  That’s a fact.

The slower the spread, the more likely a better treatment will be available for those who get it is also a fact.

For the general population to suggest with a seemingly shrugging attitude that oh well people just gonna die anyways so damned if they are going to be bothered to reduce how many have to die because they want to go play or make money is the very definition of selfish and ignorant.  It’s morally wrong and doesn’t deserve my respect. It’s shameful.

I wish I could delete my thread about not being overly worried about Covid. I never really thought of myself as naive, I actually tend towards cynicism, but apparently I greatly over valued the ability of my countrymen to do basic arithmetic, have any willingness at all to be inconvenienced to save lives, or have a fundamental understanding that freedom is not to do anything we want but to be free to do the right thing for others.  I wasn’t overly worried bc in large part my life is unchanged.  Oh we are very inconvenienced bc no one in my house is leaving the house, and we have many health and financial fears.  But we never questioned the need to stay home for myself and others. I never questioned the need to continue making meals for others or placing grocery orders for others.  It never occurred to me that so many people, (a majority even!) couldn’t drum up enough honor to just be decent to others in their community. I mean literally all they have to do is stay the hell home, which may be hard but let’s be real it’s not the hardest thing in the world.  A Christian nation? What a blasphemy. 

[gardenmom5]

Ok - one of the things that may have gotten press and led to some misunderstandings (and misreporting . . . . ) is police presence at a grocery store that has had a long history of shoplifters.   they parked something in the parking lot there because of this issue.  Right now, that could be an even bigger problem.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

So you are expecting the social distancing to eliminate COVID completely, assuming we do it long enough?  Do you have a source for this? Are there doctors and scientists saying this as well? 

Again, no. I am expecting it to break the chains of transmission such that we can test, isolate, and appropriately treat victims. We are not anywhere near that now. You are more than welcome to google and read for yourself. Start with WHO and CDC and any reputable newspaper you can find. Avoid talking heads on TV.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

It is not like that pg woman is the only person with Covid!?

Every person who doesn’t stay home risks spreading this faster and to more people. That’s a fact.

The more people stay home, the slower it will spread and the fewer people it will spread to. That’s a fact. 

The drs and hospitals can only treat so many people.  That’s a fact.

Medical professionals are not immune, so there will be waves where they go down to Covid and there’s even less people to help at the hospital. That’s a fact.

 

This.  and just because a medical professional isn't working directly with a covid19 patient doesn't mean they're not possibly exposed in another part of the hospital.  My dd is a pharmd - and is working two shifts instead of her previous one.  while her exposure is less, it's not non-existent.  (her dh is working from home.)

my niece is a L&D RN - she was also a suspected case of covid19 (she tested negative.)

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Is there proof that it was deliberate? Honest question. 

in the referenced case, I've no idea.

that there are people who have tried to DELIBERATLY infect someone else?  there are definitely cases there too.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Bellevue is not in Utah. . Linking random laws to random counties that have nothing to do with what I referenced or linked to is. . .  what. . . disingenuous at best. 

yeah- no kidding.  completely different state.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

Is there proof that it was deliberate? Honest question. 

Of course not but clearly that was a risk someone who was exposed/infectious was willing to take.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

Most people I interact with on social media are posting about their social isolation and coping fairly well. I understand that some people don't think this is a big deal. But when you have to get permission from your government to leave the house.... it's mind blowing. And really, it ought to bother people that the government is asking people to turn each other in.

seattle (I'm in a 'burb) was having a huge issue with people NOT obeying social distancing, packing parks, etc..  Seattle is a fairly liberal city btw.  THAT is what prompted our fairly liberal governor to enact a "shelter-in-place" order for the entire state.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

This is a more specific link about the app.  https://patch.com/washington/bellevue/bellevue-police-ask-neighbors-report-stay-home-violations

Ok.  From reading the other - the problem has been the number of people calling 911 to report the issues.  I can see how they'd want to get them off the emergency lines.   

I haven't seen anything I'd really consider an issue.  I've seen kids playing in their own yards with siblings.  (and there aren't many kids on my street.).  I've seen people walking down my street as it's part of a path - no issue there either.   DH and I did go to the botanical garden before the order was in place, and people there were generally very conscientious about distancing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In democratic countries I think that the best weapon against this virus is education.  Well, education and social distancing.  Or education about social distancing.  For 80% of the people (this is just pulling a number out of my head so nothing scientific!).  if the education is done well and with enough factual information, this is good enough to get people to do the right thing.  But then there are those people who either don't understand even the best explained science or who are just so stubborn that they have closed themselves off to listening.  For those people the government has to get more firm - not draconian but education has to be replaced by outright changes in law whether the people understand them or not.  But if people don't obey those outright laws, then what?  Our local police are actually being very gracious in going back to education as a way to enforce those laws.  I suspect that it is partly because in a pandemic they don't want to lock more people up in close proximity to each other but also because they really don't want to escalate things.  But some people - like the people who are using coughing/threats of COVID19 as a weapon - have to be locked up just to protect the majority's freedoms from their gross abuse of their "freedoms" (which have crossed into abuse of other's rights). 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[Sneezyone]

48 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Wow, I'd seen on some of the other forums some people mention y'all had gone full Gestapo here so I had to come check it out for myself.

Crazy to see how many of you would be Pro-Japenese Internment camp "for the safety of the Country" with your justifications of denying people of rights and due process- you are using the exact same arguments. Y'all are truly terrifying, and also why governments get away with oppressing people in numerous circumstances.

*Oh we are so social justice minded except when it's a risk that might actually affect us and then, by all means, take everyone's rights away!*

 

Seriously? Gestapo references are so far over the line as to not even be worth discussing. No one is being incarcerated, lynched, gassed, shot by firing squad, or indefinitely detained. What’s being discussed is public shaming and approbation for those who cannot follow basic public safety rules. These rules aren’t race/ethnicity/income based. They’re behavior-based, like locking up actual criminals who harm others is behavior based. I love when people who have little/no actual experience with American discrimination attempt to wear the mantle like they have any freaking idea what that REALLY means. The risk to me, personally, is minuscule. I work from home and DH can live on the ship if need be. I actually care about my friends and family tho, shocking as that may be. I also care to be ACCURATE with respect to the war/public health emergency powers of our government. I know there’s a pandemic going on but you may still be able to find help for your persecution complex if you stomp your feet hard enough.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Hey, you can justify all you want. I'm sure in the past a lot of people who violated people's rights and then eventually moved into actual physical harming those people started with public shaming, and The Karen™ and/or (What's the guy name for a Karen™ btw?) crowd applauding them on then helped move them into physical violence.

The crazy thing about liberties is you hand them over in one area and they have a way of disappearing in others.  I've seen this story play out before a few times. Spoiler alert! You're all going to lose a lot of rights if people don't start pushing back in the courts. 

While I'm self-immolating here, can I also note the irony of seeing people who for the last three years have been constantly handwringing over a Federal government abuse civil rights in multiple areas now wanting the exact same government to lock everyone in their houses? 

1) no one is advocating locking people in their homes. We are being asked to maintain 6-feet distances.

2) Self-immolate away.

3)Voluntarily doing the right thing by your fellow citizens requires no justification.

4)My rights are preserved when government DOESN’T use its powers to compel me

5) There’s an election in 6 months. Exercise your rights as I will mine.

6) Bless her heart, Karen (TM) is a caricature of every white woman who feels entitled to do as she pleases, damn the consequences, and have police enforce her personal preferences. This is a perfect illustration.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Wow, I'd seen on some of the other forums some people mention y'all had gone full Gestapo here so I had to come check it out for myself.

Crazy to see how many of you would be Pro-Japenese Internment camp "for the safety of the Country" with your justifications of denying people of rights and due process- you are using the exact same arguments. Y'all are truly terrifying, and also why governments get away with oppressing people in numerous circumstances.

*Oh we are so social justice minded except when it's a risk that might actually affect us and then, by all means, take everyone's rights away!*

 

NO ONE here would be "pro Japanese internment" — why do people keep referencing  situations where people were targeting and persecuting innocent people for their ethnicity or religion??? Religion and ethnicity are not contagious! No police department is hauling off people to internment camps for playing basketball or picnicking in the park. The only people who have been arrested have been people who are literally licking and coughing on things in stores. This paranoid hyperbole is ridiculous. 

[wendyroo]

4 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

*Oh we are so social justice minded except when it's a risk that might actually affect us and then, by all means, take everyone's rights away!*

Isn't the bolded government's primary role?

People do not have the right to drive as fast as they want on public roads because it poses a risk to all.  People do not have the right to scream "Fire" in a movie theater because it could endanger others.  People are punished for not paying taxes because that lack of funds means less vital services for everyone.  People can't operate Ponzi schemes or lie about HIV status or pore used motor oil down the sewers...heck, there can be legal ramifications if a person rakes their leaves directly into the street.  Those things are not allowed because collectively we have made laws restricting each person's individual freedoms for the benefit of everyone.

My state governor is not an authoritarian dictator executing people for speaking out against her, she is a legally elected official who has exercised her right to issue a stay at home order for the health and safety of her constituency.  I fully support her right (and duty) to enforce that order using legal means at her disposal as she sees fit.  That is the whole point of a representative democracy...it doesn't mean you get complete individual freedom, it means you get to vote for who is allowed to restrict your freedoms.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Welp. Seeing as I spent a lot of years working for a certain group of men who were ostracized for a contagious infectious disease and had their rights hacked away at a fundamental level until they had people stand up for them in court, I beg to disagree.  If only powers were so easily contained.......but they aren't. 

But I'm not expecting to change your mind or Sneezy's. I did pop over to see the hub bub though and saw @DesertBlossom starting to get piled on a little so thought I'd come lend her my support. 

Dessertblossom is pissed that the public parks aren't open and available for her to congregate at will. That's the definition of a KAREN (TM) move.

[wendyroo]

2 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Welp. Seeing as I spent a lot of years working for a certain group of men who were ostracized for a contagious infectious disease and had their rights hacked away at a fundamental level until they had people stand up for them in court, I beg to disagree.  If only powers were so easily contained.......but they aren't. 

But I'm not expecting to change your mind or Sneezy's. I did pop over to see the hub bub though and saw @DesertBlossom starting to get piled on a little so thought I'd come lend her my support. 

So do you support an HIV-positive patient's right to have sex with someone without disclosing their HIV status?

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, ByeByeMartha said:

I pay taxes for all these parks and services. But I realize that a govt that gives you something is the same govt that can take it away. I understand thoroughly what is going on and my family and I are extremely law-abiding citizens. I just think some "rules" have been taken much too far and will affect people's health negatively. While social-distancing is wise and will save lives from COVID-19, I think a lot of people will suffer loss in health as a result of staying indoors for extended periods of time--such as: increased anxiety, depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, Type 2 Diabetes, asthma, allergies, etc.  (not to mention what happens to the mental & physical health of the unemployed segment of the population). We make jokes about the "Quarantine 15" but in reality it's no laughing matter. Too many people are very unhealthy in our country as it is. 

eta: so on that note I'm out for my run with my DD so I don't stay parked by the computer which is also unhealthy in many ways 🙂 

No one says you can't go outside, or exercise. Free workout videos about, pushups are available everywhere, walking and jogging is specifically named as allowed, and in my county stay at home order they also allow golfing and tennis and fishing as long as you keep 6 ft away from people. And as I said before, you can dribble a basketball in a driveway or parking lot or sidewalk, or work on passing skills with a family member all you want. You just can't get together in a group to do it. I don't remember playing basketball in groups greater than 10 as being some kind of inalienable right. 

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

If we want to claim not obeying shelter in place/social distancing is some kind of educated civics lesson then I’m game for that. 

If fighting Covid is a war, and it is in more ways than not, people selfish enough to knowingly do things we know significantly raises the risk of the invasion spreading and have warned against doing for that reason, sounds like treason in war time to me. Having their business license revoked or a cop or neighbor yelling at them from 6ft away to go the hell home seems a pretty tame response to a treasonous act that could kill me or my husband. 

They can take their bs claim of “their rights to do whatever they want” and shove it. 

Isn't the old adage "your rights end where mine begin"? When what you want to do risks the lives of others, you may have a problem. 

3 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

I am really sorry to hear this. That is awful. From what I understand all of this social distancing and staying at home is meant to "flatten the curve" so as not to overwhelm the hospitals. But this will continue to spread and a lot of people are going to get sick. It's an unfortunate fact. Using one person's illness as proof of other's selfishness isn't really fair. 

It will spread more and faster if people are selfish. People will die specifically because people were selfish. 

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

It is not like that pg woman is the only person with Covid!?

Every person who doesn’t stay home risks spreading this faster and to more people. That’s a fact.

The more people stay home, the slower it will spread and the fewer people it will spread to. That’s a fact. 

The drs and hospitals can only treat so many people.  That’s a fact.

Medical professionals are not immune, so there will be waves where they go down to Covid and there’s even less people to help at the hospital. That’s a fact.

While I or my husband or some of my kids, or millions of others, might die of Covid no matter what availability there is at the hospital, the chances of our survival is significantly, exponentially, higher if we can get medical care.  That’s a fact.

The slower the spread, the more likely a better treatment will be available for those who get it is also a fact.

For the general population to suggest with a seemingly shrugging attitude that oh well people just gonna die anyways so damned if they are going to be bothered to reduce how many have to die because they want to go play or make money is the very definition of selfish and ignorant.  It’s morally wrong and doesn’t deserve my respect. It’s shameful.

I wish I could delete my thread about not being overly worried about Covid. I never really thought of myself as naive, I actually tend towards cynicism, but apparently I greatly over valued the ability of my countrymen to do basic arithmetic, have any willingness at all to be inconvenienced to save lives, or have a fundamental understanding that freedom is not to do anything we want but to be free to do the right thing for others.  I wasn’t overly worried bc in large part my life is unchanged.  Oh we are very inconvenienced bc no one in my house is leaving the house, and we have many health and financial fears.  But we never questioned the need to stay home for myself and others. I never questioned the need to continue making meals for others or placing grocery orders for others.  It never occurred to me that so many people, (a majority even!) couldn’t drum up enough honor to just be decent to others in their community. I mean literally all they have to do is stay the hell home, which may be hard but let’s be real it’s not the hardest thing in the world.  A Christian nation? What a blasphemy. 

This. (and this explains why we were so confused by that thread! I think the rest of us were anticipating people being jerks more than you were. We knew you were the type to do the right thing, which is why it was so confusing - didn't occur to me that you just thought others would too if need be.)

25 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Wow, I'd seen on some of the other forums some people mention y'all had gone full Gestapo here so I had to come check it out for myself.

Crazy to see how many of you would be Pro-Japenese Internment camp "for the safety of the Country" with your justifications of denying people of rights and due process- you are using the exact same arguments. Y'all are truly terrifying, and also why governments get away with oppressing people in numerous circumstances.

*Oh we are so social justice minded except when it's a risk that might actually affect us and then, by all means, take everyone's rights away!*

 

SERIOUSLY?!?!?! Saying you have to stick to individual sports and exercise for the time being, in order to slow the spread of a pandemic, is the equivalent of internment camps? Being told by the police to go home, and if you refuse to stop playing your fun game of basketball or whatever, getting a fine, is equivalent to a Gestapo state??

It is totally consistent with social justice to care about 'the least of these" and want to protect the rights of those who are at risk. You know, rights like the right to being alive. That seems to trump the right to have a kegger on the beach, or a barbecue at the park. And no one group is being singled out, unless you include selfish as a group. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Actually people CAN now lie about HIV status in many states- it's no longer criminal- nor is lying about a whole other host of diseases....... As for the others' I'm not a Constitutional Lawyer. However, I am fleetingly familiar with Public Health law (guessing you aren't) and process is being annihilated all over this country right now at the state level. Unfortunately when they close the courts they get to run a little rough shod for a while before the white knights at the ACLU and other organizations will get things back in check. 

 

HIV used to be a death sentence. It is not any longer. Still, there are MULTIPLE states, most in fact, that still consider deliberate infection/non-disclosure an assault or criminal enhancement. 

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/states/exposure.html