Literature centered vs history centered

[WoolC]

For those that take a more literature-centered approach a la the great CiRCE threads from years ago as opposed to box curricula that is heavy on historical fiction, do you just plan it all yourself or is there a curriculum out there that balances this well?  We’ve been doing AO up to year 4,  but as we keep going my kids just aren’t connecting with several of the books, and dragging out a book you don’t particularly love for an entire year is really killing the joy of learning.  

We’ve been doing some Layers of Learning units for a change of pace and while we’re enjoying it, the amount of time devoted to history and science reading doesn’t leave a lot of time for great literature.  I’ve been looking at various curricula (SCM, Winter Promise, Biblioplan) and they all seem heavy on historical fiction and light on literature (specifically fairy tales, myths, good/great books).   I’m pretty sure I need to make diy plans for our upcoming year, but the pull of new shiny curriculum is strong right now.  I’ve been looking through the “plague purchases” thread, the uncertainty right now has me itching to buy, but nothing really fits what I’m looking for.  Any curricula I’m overlooking?  Tell me about your literature focused diy plans!

[lulalu]

We focus more on lit than history at this point. But for us (2nd grade) our literature is read alouds. I pick my own books to read. Books I think we will all like. I picked 2 books that are connected to our history this year for read aloud time. 

We simply talk about literary elements, thoughts on character actions, vocabulary that comes up, connections to other books. 

In years to come we may need to add more, but I feel this is enough for elementary ages. 

[Ellie]

I'm a little confused: do you want something for literature, or something for history that is literature-based?

I don't think you'll find a literature-based history that includes all the genres you're wanting.

[WoolC]

7 minutes ago, Ellie said:

I'm a little confused: do you want something for literature, or something for history that is literature-based?

I don't think you'll find a literature-based history that includes all the genres you're wanting.

I’m sorry for not communicating more clearly!  

I’m not looking for a literature-based history.  I’m referring to the old Circe threads where many said they were moving their focus away from historical fiction to make more room for great literature.  Angelina Stanford recently did a podcast interview on how history as the center of the curriculum does not hold; so I know there are others out there thinking about this.  However, when I look at most box curriculum it is centered around history and includes a lot of historical fiction, biographies, etc.  If one does all of the scheduled history readings with these programs it really crowds out the ability to read plenty of mythology, tales, epics, poetry, Shakespeare, etc.  

I was hoping to hear from some who have prioritized literature. Do you pretty much make your own book lists, plans, etc? Do you just stick to one or two history and science readings a week from a spine book to keep time carved out for other studies?  I love the look of all of the book packages from curricula  providers but the quality literature seems light and the history is heavy.  Looking for insight from others who have taken a different approach.

I hope that makes more sense!

[happypamama]

I get what you're saying. My solution has been to have at least a couple of books going at once. For kids who can read, they are typically assigned historical fiction that corresponds to history studies as independent reading, and readalouds of classic literature are bedtime/lunchtime family books that we enjoy together. My one son is currently reading Tales from Ancient Egypt on his own, while I'm reading The Moffats to him and his brothers. For non-readers, I may just have a couple of readalouds going at once. And we also always have a book of poetry going too. 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

It's the way I have been teaching for the last several yrs.  This yr my 4th grader is working through Chronicles of Narnia and my 8th grader is working through LoTR.  I loosely correlate history (history of England, Middle Ages, etc).  Some of my other favorites are Anne of Green Gables, (I reservedly say Little House on the Prairie.....I don't know if I can stomach doing it again.  I have read them so many times and they are not my favorite.  I like a few of them, but not a whole yr of them), Wind in THe Willows, Imaginarium Geographica (not great lit but great for incorporating great lit), The Secret Garden and The Little Princess, etc.

In terms of pre-planned, I have never found anything I have used as is.  Some I have gleaned some useful tips from but still end up developing more my own than following are Further Up Further In, Literary Lessons from LOTR, Where the Brook and River Meet, Prairie Primer

[ScoutTN]

For my family, this looks like doing English and History seperately. Some years we may have courses that sync as many of the classical providers and curricula do, some years not. We strive to keep a strong interest-driven element, so it depends on what they have wanted to do. My ds is now in school, but he spent almost two years on WW2 for history. Dd and I made up her English class this year somewhat randomly with books she wanted to read, some writing I thought she should do and nice slow pace, taking time to go deep on each book. Next year she will have an outsourced, faster paced American Lit class, and a light american History and Governement at home. Her choice to sync them all and do a different flavor English class. 

It also means that for my high schooler, who doesn't love history, we choose something lighter and leave more time (and money and energy) for English.  We do include some literature and movies in her history studies, but not lots and lots. Many of the combo curricula or courses are super history heavy, with lots of non-fiction reading. That would not be a fit for my dd. She  wants to read poetry, novels and plays, not treatises on government or political philosophy. Why homeschool if we can't tailor to our kids' interests?

When my kids were younger, we did once through a typical four year cycle and enjoyed it, but I wouldn't want to do that over and over. Just us. 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Emily ZL]

Yes, I agree with OP. I heard the same podcast and totally was convicted by Angelina Stanford's arguments. I don't have a boxed curriculum to offer. Here's what I did/am planning: this year we were doing ancients, and after the podcast I took out the historical fiction completely. I focused less on names and dates (we were doing famous men of Rome) and focused on the stories we should know (I started focusing on Greek myths, retellings of the Odyssey, etc). Chances are he was never going to remember those Roman emporers anyway. Next year we are doing middle ages and I want to focus on Vikings, Norse myths, tales like Robin Hood and King Arthur, and Shakespeare, and possibly parts of Our Island Story and the children's version of pilgrim's progress that MP uses. (And so on for the other periods, asking what are the key stories and/or primary sources.) In other words, it's still sort of combining history and literature, but I'm prioritizing the literature by thinking about what kinds of stories and myths were heavily influential in the culture. My theory is that no one, not even homeschoolers, retains much of the details of history lessons, but we all remember stories. The Trojan horse is vivid in our minds long after we forget everything else about that project we did on Homer. So yeah, I know curricula are shiny but I'd just diy, and don't overthink it. I'd rather do too little and throw in interest driven reading than try to do too much, personally.

[Porridge]

We focus more on literature than history. I have a history spine for each child. If possible, I choose quality literature (not Historical fiction)  from or reflective of the historical time period. But I prioritize quality literature over having everything match the historical time period. 

 For example, the kids are going through medieval history this year. The older is reading Ivanhoe, The Ballad of the White Knight, Beowulf, among other books. It happens to mesh well with the historical time period. My younger is reading from the Ambleside year 4 literature list (Kidnapped, Washington Irving, prince and the Pauper, etc) . It doesn’t match our medieval history, but, oh well!

I do end up making my own book lists.

[WoolC]

59 minutes ago, Emily ZL said:

Yes, I agree with OP. I heard the same podcast and totally was convicted by Angelina Stanford's arguments. I don't have a boxed curriculum to offer. Here's what I did/am planning: this year we were doing ancients, and after the podcast I took out the historical fiction completely. I focused less on names and dates (we were doing famous men of Rome) and focused on the stories we should know (I started focusing on Greek myths, retellings of the Odyssey, etc). Chances are he was never going to remember those Roman emporers anyway. Next year we are doing middle ages and I want to focus on Vikings, Norse myths, tales like Robin Hood and King Arthur, and Shakespeare, and possibly parts of Our Island Story and the children's version of pilgrim's progress that MP uses. (And so on for the other periods, asking what are the key stories and/or primary sources.) In other words, it's still sort of combining history and literature, but I'm prioritizing the literature by thinking about what kinds of stories and myths were heavily influential in the culture. My theory is that no one, not even homeschoolers, retains much of the details of history lessons, but we all remember stories. The Trojan horse is vivid in our minds long after we forget everything else about that project we did on Homer. So yeah, I know curricula are shiny but I'd just diy, and don't overthink it. I'd rather do too little and throw in interest driven reading than try to do too much, personally.

Yes!  This sounds exactly like what I’ve been thinking.  Thank you for sharing how you are doing this.  I think I will move forward with confidence putting together my on plan for the fall.

[Meriwether]

We read loads of historical fiction and biographies that relate to our history. We also read good literature. Sometimes the literature lines up with the history and sometimes it doesn't, but I try to line it up.

[WoolC]

10 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm only a first year homeschooler so warning...

I have prioritized literature over history in our homeschool. I make my own lists and plans because I've never found a LA curriculum that fit our needs.

However, I've come to dislike many of the books often recommended by people in the Circe world. I do not believe that older books are superior or that literature should be used to teach virtue. 

Tell me more.  I’ve been moving to more of a BraveWriter/ Brave Learner mindset in a lot of our practices including book choices lately.  Right now, we’re having a blast reading the Percy Jackson series,  I find my kids connect more and have far better conversations when they find the book engaging and humorous.  At the same time, we really find historical fiction dull and we do enjoy the classic fairy tales and mythology, so in that regard some of the older stuff is a good fit for us.  I’d love to hear where you pull some of your literature choices from.

We’ve been homeschooling for six years, and I have been enamored with Charlotte Mason and CiRCE’s ideal vision for much of that time, but it honestly doesn’t work well for my kids and I’m becoming disillusioned with much of it.  I still want to have a strong literature focus but I’m also hoping to shake things up and breathe some life and joy into our homeschool.

[Porridge]

One thing that helps me feel better about not pairing literature strictly with history is our timeline. Each child had as timeline - DD has a large Leuchterm notebook; DS is coding his own timeline with html. They are each making connections about history as they add to the timeline weekly.

Where we pull our literature sources from — I look at the 1000 good books list, Ambleside, Mensa, etc.  @Lori D.and others on this forum also offer a wealth of suggestions! There is also @Hunter‘s Rainbow curriculum list.

 

[KeriJ]

The way I handled it was to look at Memoria Press and how they do history.  We are not a Latin family at all, so rather that following the LCC model with being Latin heavy, I just pulled my inspiration from how MP does the history and filled up the rest of the time with subjects that mattered more to us.  (it's not reflected in my signature.  I've done a lot of tweaking since writing that)

Edited March 24, 2020 by KeriJ

[LostintheCosmos]

Our homeschool is literature-centered. I see the ultimate goal of general education as being the cultivation of the arts of linguistic expression. I moved in this direction not so much because of Circe-related stuff, but after reading more about the actual history of classical education, its revival in the Renaissance, and also the work of more recent Jesuit educators like Fr. Francis Donnelly. I haven't found any curriculum that matches my goals or the methods I'm hoping to use (not that I've looked at absolutely everything out there), so we're making it up as we go! For our formal studies, I tend to rely on classic authors because my goal is for us to learn how to use the English language well from those who have mastered its use (that being said, I am happy to hunt around to find something that engages the kids and move on from something that doesn't even if it's what's on book lists or whatever). 

For this coming year, I'm planning a big grammar push, but I'm using resources that focus on the rhetorical impact of grammatical choices, not grammar rules or diagramming. And we're going to do a lot of comparing how grammar works in the different languages we study. I'm using short stories for most of our literature selections, so that we can  look for similarities and differences in how authors use language and also get exposure to many different styles.

[8filltheheart]

23 hours ago, WoolC said:

 I still want to have a strong literature focus but I’m also hoping to shake things up and breathe some life and joy into our homeschool.

Why not pick literature the literature you want to focus on for a  couple months, semester, or school yr and see if there are any general historical themes that can developed into focused study.  For example, the industrial revolution, cartography and the discovery of longitude, space exploration, Westward expansion, etc.   

[Sarah0000]

Our nuclear family are big readers, and a lot of our closest extended family, some of us are authors too. Lit is a lifestyle here. My kids will often read for hours a day anything I put out for them to see. Books I want to use for a specific homeschool lesson are usually picture books done during family read aloud. My kids are young though, and that will probably change ince they reach middle school.

[WoolC]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Why not pick literature the literature you want to focus on for a  couple months, semester, or school yr and see if there are any general historical themes that can developed into focused study.  For example, the industrial revolution, cartography and the discovery of longitude, space exploration, Westward expansion, etc.   

This is what I’m beginning to do.  We’ve always followed some kind of outside scope and sequence like Ambleside or Memoria Press, so it’s a little nerve wracking for me, but we’re breaking out of the mold and doing what works.  

[WoolC]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

+1

It's good in a thought-provoking way, and conducive to conversations (obviously here lol) but at the end of the day, there's nothing much to it except what we, the parents, create. Which we do anyway, of course. And they get kind of mean when people don't toe the line. And they had some shenanigans with Classical Conversations. 

The shenanigans with Classical Conversations and the latest kerfuffle with Cindy Rollins have made me take big step back.  I love all of the big conversations and philosophy, and I have a tendency to buy into idealism and then judge myself harshly when I don’t live up to it.  I’m finally realizing none of this is helping me on on a Monday morning with my atypical learners.  Airy-fairy nonsense is an apt description 😂 and it looks like many of you have recognized it for what it is far more quickly than I have.  
 

I’m going to go off-road this year with a stack of good books and topics that the kids care about.  We can always go back to someone else’s tidy plan next year if it’s a total bust.  

[forty-two]

32 minutes ago, WoolC said:

latest kerfuffle with Cindy Rollins

What kerfuffle?  (Although I always want to say kerfluffle, with an extra 'l'.)

ETA:  Although I'm not 100% sure I'm up on the "shenanigans with CC" either.  Is it that Circe's somehow entangled with CC's MLM-ish business practices, since CC uses LToW?  Or am I behind the door here, too?

Edited March 25, 2020 by forty-two

[WoolC]

55 minutes ago, forty-two said:

What kerfuffle?  (Although I always want to say kerfluffle, with an extra 'l'.)

ETA:  Although I'm not 100% sure I'm up on the "shenanigans with CC" either.  Is it that Circe's somehow entangled with CC's MLM-ish business practices, since CC uses LToW?  Or am I behind the door here, too?

I actually spelled it with the extra ‘'l' but my autocorrect removed it, lol.  

 So this is probably a big can of worms to open here, but I think you can still read all of the drama on Cindy Rollins-Writer Facebook page and in the Mere Motherhood group on Facebook.  The main gist is that when CiRCE published Cindy’s Morning Time handbook there was no contract and she understood them to be publishing it as a free pamphlet to give away at events.  They actually sold it for a profit and she doesn’t receive royalties, though she was paid a small fee when she gave them the publishing rights.  She has also posted several vague posts calling her publisher (CiRCE) a wolf in sheep’s clothing, questioning their honor, and accusing them of using spiritual rhetoric to dupe naive homeschool moms.  Yesterday she made a post calling the men and publishers of Christian classical education companies ”vultures.”. So...there’s that.  I find a lot of her rhetoric on the issue over the top.  If moms want to use certain curricula or programs, I don’t think they’ve necessarily been duped.  At the same time, some of her posts have been concerning and given me pause.  CiRCE has been publicly silent on all of this.
 

And yes, Circe is entangled with CC and they have deleted negative comments about CC from Facebook groups that they manage.  It’s also rumored at this point that CiRCE is involved in whatever “big announcement” CC is rolling out with later this week.

[8filltheheart]

Just seals my opinion on $$, not homeschooling and not quality of education, being the main motivation behind current homeschooling providers.

[8filltheheart]

29 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I wouldn't consider Circe to be a homeschooling provider. I think they are more oriented towards serving private classical schools. 

 

Yes and no. Andrew Kern and the entire teaching from a state of rest "movement"  are interconnected. No sure if/how financially.

[birchbark]

My homeschool was profoundly impacted by those old Circe threads. It felt like they had a couple glory years back then. I loved their blog, went to a conference... then the well kind of dried up for me. The final straw was Cindy's departure. I wasn't gleaning much from them anymore, and I just figured it was me; that they met the need I had at that particular stage of my journey. But I've been getting a fuller picture as I hear from others' perspective.

As far as the OP, I don't think I would call my curriculum literature-based. I've tried to make it 3R-based, and that certainly includes literature. The Circe thread (more the ladies who posted than Circe) inspired me to drop the history base, and it was very freeing. My homeschool is more Robinson-style than anything. I schedule in math and English, then everything else gets thrown into a big reading list (once the kids are working independently). Along with plenty of literature I include some science reading and at least one history survey. (I have a post on my blog about why we don't do history cycles that explains my thinking on this.) We also do a "Morning Time" and a bedtime read-aloud.

WoolC, you may be interested in Bonnie Landry's booklet on making literature into the curriculum. I enjoyed reading it although I haven't tried doing it like she does.

 

[WoolC]

8 hours ago, birchbark said:

My homeschool was profoundly impacted by those old Circe threads. It felt like they had a couple glory years back then. I loved their blog, went to a conference... then the well kind of dried up for me. The final straw was Cindy's departure. I wasn't gleaning much from them anymore, and I just figured it was me; that they met the need I had at that particular stage of my journey. But I've been getting a fuller picture as I hear from others' perspective.

As far as the OP, I don't think I would call my curriculum literature-based. I've tried to make it 3R-based, and that certainly includes literature. The Circe thread (more the ladies who posted than Circe) inspired me to drop the history base, and it was very freeing. My homeschool is more Robinson-style than anything. I schedule in math and English, then everything else gets thrown into a big reading list (once the kids are working independently). Along with plenty of literature I include some science reading and at least one history survey. (I have a post on my blog about why we don't do history cycles that explains my thinking on this.) We also do a "Morning Time" and a bedtime read-aloud.

WoolC, you may be interested in Bonnie Landry's booklet on making literature into the curriculum. I enjoyed reading it although I haven't tried doing it like she does.

 

I just read your blog post on history cycles and I LOVE how you tackle history!  Thank you so much for sharing, it’s really helping me to bring my thoughts and goals into focus.  I’ll check out Bonnie Landry’s booklet as well.

[Zoo Keeper]

Whoa!  I had no idea about the whole Rollins/Circe dust up. 

Food for thought...

[barnwife]

7 hours ago, WoolC said:

I just read your blog post on history cycles and I LOVE how you tackle history!  Thank you so much for sharing, it’s really helping me to bring my thoughts and goals into focus.  I’ll check out Bonnie Landry’s booklet as well.

Which blog post are you referring to? (Did I miss a link somewhere?) 

[WoolC]

1 hour ago, barnwife said:

Which blog post are you referring to? (Did I miss a link somewhere?) 

It’s right here.  The general blog link is in birchbark’s signature.

http://unembellishedliving.com/?p=1456

[birchbark]

8 hours ago, WoolC said:

I just read your blog post on history cycles and I LOVE how you tackle history!  Thank you so much for sharing, it’s really helping me to bring my thoughts and goals into focus.  I’ll check out Bonnie Landry’s booklet as well.

 

Thanks! I think I got the idea from another poster here. Mrs. Twain maybe?

Also, it looks like Circe may have pulled Cindy's handbook (the publication in question) from their site.

[WoolC]

2 hours ago, birchbark said:

 

Thanks! I think I got the idea from another poster here. Mrs. Twain maybe?

Also, it looks like Circe may have pulled Cindy's handbook (the publication in question) from their site.

Interesting, it sure looks like they did.  It was on the site last weekend, and it’s still featured in some of their promotional photography.

[KBadd]

This thread has been really interesting. I read WTM when my oldest was a preschooler and followed pretty much all of SWB's recommendations for him and his brother.  That was my first introduction to classical education. A

Fast forward 8 years to today... I came to the conclusion that I love SWB but disagree about centering on history. I tried MP but prefer the WTM curriculum and outline of teaching writing. I have always combined this with Cindy Rollins' morning time practice and memory work. I liked how MP included great literature, without worrying about what historical period it discusses.  I have recently been looking for a booklist-type curriculum like AO or AGF but I have decided to use some of MP's literature, WTM recommendations for skill subjects, continue reading SOTW for now and fill in with some more nonfiction books, and just read all the good literature I can find.

My 2 oldest are 10 and 9 and they devour books. I think my oldest has never encountered a story he didn't like 😂 they read a ton of nonfiction books, including history and science. We go to the library once every week or two and I akways make sure they pick out at least one fairy tale, history, science, and biography book. They often pick more science books or books about war. 😂 My 10 year old just finished reading The Sign of the Beaver and started Centerburg Tales. He loves Hardy Boys too. My 9 year old just finished reading the Narnia series, which I read aloud about 4 years ago. 

For read alouds, I use both old and new books.  We're reading The Secret Garden right now because I've always wanted to read it in the spring and now I get to watch the movie again with them 😂  

Anyway, I'm not sure if this is helpful at all. I just understand where you're coming from.

Also, what podcast are you referring to from Angelina Stanford? Can anyone post a link?

Thanks!

[8filltheheart]

I have never understood why classical education and history-centered or even cyclical history are intertwined in the same definition.  Thank goodness history does not need to be studied cyclically to be mastered or my kids would be doomed to never understand history in context b/c we have never approached history cyclically in over 26 yrs.  🙂

[WoolC]

2 hours ago, KBadd said:

Also, what podcast are you referring to from Angelina Stanford? Can anyone post a link?

It was this one.  

https://www.scholesisters.com/ss60/
 

And really, she’s not arguing that literature should be the center of the curriculum, but that we shouldn’t feel bound to the history cycle in choosing our literature, art, music, etc.  So it sounds like, what you’re doing isn’t far from what she’s describing.