CDC group size

[gardenmom5]

CDC has new group size recommendations of <= 50 - and they are recommending them for the next EIGHT WEEKS.

 

Therefore, CDC, in accordance with its guidance for large events and mass gatherings, recommends that for the next 8 weeks, organizers (whether groups or individuals) cancel or postpone in-person events that consist of 50 people or more throughout the United States.

[math teacher]

I wonder if this will impact how many people are allowed into a store at one time. I know they aren't in there socializing, but I did wonder about it.

[EmilyGF]

5 minutes ago, Math teacher said:

I wonder if this will impact how many people are allowed into a store at one time. I know they aren't in there socializing, but I did wonder about it.

In Italy, people have to take a ticket and then get called into the store as people exit by people guarding the doors. It totally could.

[Scarlett]

This changes everything,  

[Guest]

Guess piano recital is out, then. Maybe we can do it at the end of the summer?

[Junie]

I was invited to a wedding next month.  I feel so bad for the bride and groom. 😞

[Murphy101]

Well shit.

Tried to come up with better but can't.

They limit the size much further and we'll have to start quarantining rooms off our house.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Is this required or suggested?  I'm wondering about church services and the like.  Most area churches around here are requesting those at risk (elderly, immunocompromised) stay home and are offering streaming services, but are allowing those that choose to venture out.  Will churches be required to shutter their doors?

[Murphy101]

Hang on a sec.

It says this does not apply to schools, universities, or businesses.

WTH Okay maybe I'm just cranky or extra stupid tonight bc I have to say that seems like a useless policy if it doesn't cover the places where most sickness of any kind is typically contracted - schools and places of employment aka businesses.

[sassenach]

23 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Well shit.

Tried to come up with better but can't.

They limit the size much further and we'll have to start quarantining rooms off our house.

The Duggars are gonna have to ship some kids out!

[gardenmom5]

47 minutes ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

Is this required or suggested?  I'm wondering about church services and the like.  Most area churches around here are requesting those at risk (elderly, immunocompromised) stay home and are offering streaming services, but are allowing those that choose to venture out.  Will churches be required to shutter their doors?

I don't even know if it's required in my county  to close churches (I can see that being a big sore spot.) - and we have the most cases  (over 10,000 tested, and still <800 positive) and most deaths in the country.   I know in Italy (by far the worse affected, with over 400 cases per million of population.  china was 56.) - they were going to close the churches and the people had fits.

Our church has an online study platform, and we have all been encouraged to use it.  Church meetings themselves have been shut down.  we do have our major conference coming up - but it will be entirely streamed. 

Last week the WA gov required nothing over 250 people.  with new CDC guidelines - he's dropped it to 50, and bars, entertainment, etc. etc. are required to close.  restaurants can do take out and delivery.     

 

eta: Grocery stores, banks, retailers and pharmacies can remain open as long as they meet public health directives.    (so, social distancing and no more than a max of 50 people.)

Edited March 16, 2020 by gardenmom5

[TravelingChris]

I will have to tell my dh to tell others they have to cancel the retreat.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Junie said:

I was invited to a wedding next month.  I feel so bad for the bride and groom. 😞

We have a few weddings coming up in our event centers.  Wondering if this "recommendation" means we have to force the brides to reschedule ... it would not surprise us if the governor follows up with an order, making it not our call anyway.

Ugh ... kinda wish they would have done this all at the same time instead of gradually.  First they excluded weddings from the limitations, and they also went from 250 to 100 and now to 50 people.  People having to reassess multiple times per day.  And a wedding is not something easily moved, especially if it's this coming weekend.  😕

[Starr]

NYC is shutting down schools, restaurants, bars, theaters etc. They can do take out. It doesn't matter the size. Sadly so many businesses won't survive. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

CDC has new group size recommendations of <= 50 - and they are recommending them for the next EIGHT WEEKS.

 

Therefore, CDC, in accordance with its guidance for large events and mass gatherings, recommends that for the next 8 weeks, organizers (whether groups or individuals) cancel or postpone in-person events that consist of 50 people or more throughout the United States.

That is for events that have people from multiple areas congregating and then returning - not for local events with no outsiders coming in. It is to prevent people from Maryland contracting it in Arizona and bringing it back, etc. 

 

[I talk to the trees]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Hang on a sec.

It says this does not apply to schools, universities, or businesses.

WTH Okay maybe I'm just cranky or extra stupid tonight bc I have to say that seems like a useless policy if it doesn't cover the places where most sickness of any kind is typically contracted - schools and places of employment aka businesses.

The very same thought crossed my mind, I must be super cranky too, because the the first word out of my mouth when I read it was “Idiots.” There might have been a few embellishments on that as well. 🤬

[happi duck]

I'm part of planning a benefit concert and auction at the end of April.  I'm guessing this answers that!  I wonder if the woman in charge will cancel or postpone?

[Junie]

21 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

That is for events that have people from multiple areas congregating and then returning - not for local events with no outsiders coming in. It is to prevent people from Maryland contracting it in Arizona and bringing it back, etc. 

 

The cdc website includes weddings in the list. 😞

Large events and mass gatherings can contribute to the spread of COVID-19 in the United States via travelers who attend these events and introduce the virus to new communities. Examples of large events and mass gatherings include conferences, festivals, parades, concerts, sporting events, weddings, and other types of assemblies. These events can be planned not only by organizations and communities but also by individuals.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

That is for events that have people from multiple areas congregating and then returning - not for local events with no outsiders coming in. It is to prevent people from Maryland contracting it in Arizona and bringing it back, etc. 

 

that is certainly NOT what the goal is in my county/state.  it most definitely includes local, public, events. Even those that only draw local people.  it is to prevent people carrying to mix with people who aren't.

Edited March 16, 2020 by gardenmom5

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

We have a few weddings coming up in our event centers.  Wondering if this "recommendation" means we have to force the brides to reschedule ... it would not surprise us if the governor follows up with an order, making it not our call anyway.

Ugh ... kinda wish they would have done this all at the same time instead of gradually.  First they excluded weddings from the limitations, and they also went from 250 to 100 and now to 50 people.  People having to reassess multiple times per day.  And a wedding is not something easily moved, especially if it's this coming weekend.  😕

There's a psychological component to gradually phasing in restrictions, or floating the possibility of a restriction at least a few days before it happens. Apparently restricting things gradually or having an adjustment time causes less psychological/emotional trauma. Or so I have read from several sources. Of course that may be true for the majority of people. Individuals within any group may react differently, of course.

[SKL]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

that is certainly NOT what the goal is in my county/state.  it most definitely includes local, public, events. Even those that only draw local people.  it is to prevent people carrying to mix with people who aren't.

What ktgroc said agrees with what the CDC announcement itself said about that particular recommendation.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

There's a psychological component to gradually phasing in restrictions, or floating the possibility of a restriction at least a few days before it happens. Apparently restricting things gradually or having an adjustment time causes less psychological/emotional trauma. Or so I have read from several sources. Of course that may be true for the majority of people. Individuals within any group may react differently, of course.

I understand that some people probably believe that, but I'm doubtful that it's true for most people.  Always waiting for the other shoe to drop is really stressful.

[Pawz4me]

Just now, SKL said:

I understand that some people probably believe that, but I'm doubtful that it's true for most people.  Always waiting for the other shoe to drop is really stressful.

Ehhh. I don't assume the way I react to things always corresponds to the data on how large groups react to the same thing. We all judge our own response as normal (that's human nature, I think), but that's not always the case.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

There's a psychological component to gradually phasing in restrictions, or floating the possibility of a restriction at least a few days before it happens. Apparently restricting things gradually or having an adjustment time causes less psychological/emotional trauma. Or so I have read from several sources. Of course that may be true for the majority of people. Individuals within any group may react differently, of course.

I think some of the constantly changing restrictions is also based on what they're learning.

22 minutes ago, SKL said:

What ktgroc said agrees with what the CDC announcement itself said about that particular recommendation.

if it were only about keeping people from geographic region mixing with people from another geographic region - they'd shut down transportation.

I'm in the hotspot - it's about keeping people at home and away from everyone else who already lives here.

[SKL]

20 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Ehhh. I don't assume the way I react to things always corresponds to the data on how large groups react to the same thing. We all judge our own response as normal (that's human nature, I think), but that's not always the case.

Well the other thing is that it's impractical and unfair for people to be fooled like that.  No, it's not the end of the world to have to reschedule events, but the closer to the event it happens, the more damage is done.

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think some of the constantly changing restrictions is also based on what they're learning.

if it were only about keeping people from geographic region mixing with people from another geographic region - they'd shut down transportation.

I'm in the hotspot - it's about keeping people at home and away from everyone else who already lives here.

Well then the CDC lied in its announcement ... also if it was about keeping everyone home, why a 50 person limit, why not 5 or 2?

Whether they should shut down transportation is another question.  I assume that for  now, they still consider it essential.  Maybe like hospitals.  You are going to see a lot of transmission there, but shutting them down isn't the answer.

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

that is certainly NOT what the goal is in my county/state.  it most definitely includes local, public, events. Even those that only draw local people.  it is to prevent people carrying to mix with people who aren't.

 

43 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think some of the constantly changing restrictions is also based on what they're learning.

if it were only about keeping people from geographic region mixing with people from another geographic region - they'd shut down transportation.

I'm in the hotspot - it's about keeping people at home and away from everyone else who already lives here.

Right - your state has other restrictions and goals, I just meant that the actual nationwide CDC statement linked was about that - not that the individual areas or even other reccomendations by other national figures or other CDC statements don't advise other things. 

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, Plum said:

Yes.
I think it’s also seeing how people and states are responding. If they see some states failing to act, a recommendation from the CDC gives them a push to act and takes it out of their hands. Same goes for states that maybe don’t have the power to act yet, maybe they haven’t declared a state of emergency yet or something, that would give them a boost to be able to act. At least it makes it so we’re all on the same page, less variables. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Not to point out the obvious, but if some states are doing significantly less restrictions than others and the other states think those people coming in would make their states unsafe, states will close borders.

I agree I'm very concerned about the small businesses and the severe economic harm this can cause by letting it go on too long.

[Pen]

From Paul Herscu, ND, MPH (I cannot make Links work again  — but had it when I quoted him on the long thread.  Repeating it now.  ) People should expect more and more tightening of restrictions. If you are able to limit yourself without orders from on high, all I have seen from Italy urgently tells us to do that. 

Quoting Herscu:

“

Quarantine. I would like to talk about one final piece here, the concept around quarantine, social distancing, self-isolation etc. And I want to start with the most confusing part right off the bat. I know it must seem extremely confusing, frustrating, and maddening to try to understand why it is that people are not just closing down the whole country right now. Why are not all the schools closed, and all public gathering deferred? Why are news conferences still occurring in closed spaces with many, many people there, and hotels still open? Why do restaurants still serve food? And so on. It has to do with risk/benefit analysis of quarantine versus non-quarantine. An epidemic, especially at the start is a very fluid and dynamic time. Closing things down early winds up causing more problems than keeping things going. In short, and this is a big discussion, the main question revolves around Person, Place, and Time. And what may seem appropriate at one time is inappropriate at other times. For example, at this moment, parts of China are loosening restrictions, while parts of Europe are becoming more tightly restricted, and at the same time parts of the USA are becoming hypervigilant and ready to move into action. But the reason municipalities are not being overly restrictive is that the downside of restriction at this time is greater than the upside. And this is coming from one of the first guys who suggested the quarantine in Ebola 6 years ago. I take it very seriously. Here, instead of crying foul and saying that municipalities are not acting correctly, it’s best to understand the fluid nature of quarantine, and that you want to limit disruption in the long term, by acting appropriately, relative to information on the ground, which changes daily. Not understanding that there are also risks to quarantine, has led to food shortages, mask shortages, beatings of people, and ultimately more problems than the virus would cause if we all acted rationally. Or put another way, the sheer health costs to people is worse over time when we over react or react inappropriately. 

 

I want to take one specific example here. At this moment, public health officials suggest limiting large gatherings. Which sounds reasonable until you try to make sense of it and realize you don’t really know what they mean by ‘large gathering.’ For example, how can they say this and at the same time keep restaurants and hospitals and schools open? Here is what they mean, simply. This is a calculation that the more people in a group leads to a higher likelihood that someone may carry this or any other virus, but as I said this is a fluid calculation. At this time, in Washington state, they are asking not to congregate in ‘large groups’ but without definition. What they really meant to say and what we see is that the large marathons and very large concerts, with a cast of thousands are closing, at this time. But in the groups that do not have an identified carrier, groups of scores and hundreds are still meeting. This will change. OVER TIME. If my numbers are right, over the next days, or next week or the week after they will still say that you should not congregate in ‘large groups,’ but then shrink the size of the group they mean to the dozen. We will be able to recognize this time because at that time, whole school systems will close. And if it gets worse, then the group will just be the family. Meaning that restaurants and hotels close. And if it gets worse, then the group is just an individual. 

 

I hope this makes sense. At this point in time, in Washington, more benefit is gotten by going about your day, in a proper hygienic fashion, then by hunkering down. Because if things do go poorly, by the time you should be hunkering down, you would have run out of both tangible and emotional resources and begin to actually cause problems for yourself the rest of the community. What groups like WHO have noted is that improper use of quarantine sometimes adds to the epidemic, adds to emotional turmoil, adds to resource dislocations, and in short, adds to problems, rather than a hopeful solution.”

[plansrme]

Y'all do know the CDC can recommend all they want, but it is not binding?  The CDC has no police power or even regulatory power, for that matter.  Your organization or governing authority can choose to implement their recommendations, or not, but unless or until they do, it's just an advisory along the lines of, "Get a flu shot."

[Murphy101]

15 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

In Italy, people have to take a ticket and then get called into the store as people exit by people guarding the doors. It totally could.

 

Right.  Bc clustered in a crowd outside the doors makes people somehow not contagious? None of this makes any sense. 

[Wheres Toto]

New Jersey just updated:

All schools and colleges/universities must close beginning on March 18 and remain closed until deemed to be safe for in-person classes to reopen;
New Jersey will join New York and Connecticut in closing all movie theaters and gyms effective this evening. Gyms must close by 8 p.m. and will remain closed indefinitely.
All casinos, racetracks and theaters will be closed;
Bars and restaurants will be closing today at 8 p.m., but will be allowed to re-open daily to offer take-out and delivery services. Food establishments will be prohibited from offering eat-in services.
Gatherings of more than 50 people will be prohibited.
The Governor will recommend that residents should not travel between 8 p.m. and 5 a.m.
Establishments such as supermarkets, pharmacies, medical offices and gas stations will not be affected by the mandatory 8 p.m. closures. They will remain open to provide service to all residents.

Stores and services that are considered non-essential can remain open if they follow social distancing and limitations but will close at 8pm.

[EmilyGF]

59 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Right.  Bc clustered in a crowd outside the doors makes people somehow not contagious? None of this makes any sense. 

According to my source (a friend who lives in northern Italy), they stay outdoors until they get called in. The ticket means they don't have to cluster (and they aren't allowed to) in some sort of line.

[mom2scouts]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Right.  Bc clustered in a crowd outside the doors makes people somehow not contagious? None of this makes any sense. 

No, I know someone in Italy who posted a picture of him standing in line at the grocery store. Each person is required to stand in a line at least 6 feet behind the person in front of them.

[Matryoshka]

8 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

No, I know someone in Italy who posted a picture of him standing in line at the grocery store. Each person is required to stand in a line at least 6 feet behind the person in front of them.

Unlike the cray cray lines at the airports here...

[Pen]

14 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

That is for events that have people from multiple areas congregating and then returning - not for local events with no outsiders coming in. It is to prevent people from Maryland contracting it in Arizona and bringing it back, etc. 

 

 

Leaving aside CDC official jurisdiction and how they may have to word things because of USA federal and state separate sovereignty issues—

Do you really think it is good for potentially infectious but asymptomatic people from Orlando to potentially transmit virus at gatherings in Miami for non essential events — or the opposite? Or from either place to some small Florida town?  

 

ETA: Or even for that matter, just within a single city? Is a group gathering in Orlando somehow specially protected more than a church in South Korea? 

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Pen

[SKL]

Now my state's governor has issued an official order to keep gatherings to less than 50.  There go all the weddings.

[mom2scouts]

Did anyone else just see the President speak? The guidelines now say to reduce group size to TEN or less.

SKL, I think you're in my state. Did you watch all of the press conference? They got information in the middle of it and now it's ten people or less.

Edited March 16, 2020 by mom2scouts

[Murphy101]

Just now, mom2scouts said:

Did anyone else just see the President speak? The guidelines now say to reduce group size to TEN or less.

wait what? My understand was if it is a high risk group they should be less than 10. Such as elderly or other immunocompromised.  

[mommyoffive]

Yes this is going to change. 

[Rachel]

I just heard that, wow!

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

The Governor will recommend that residents should not travel between 8 p.m. and 5 a.m.

How is that supposed to help?

[mom2scouts]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

wait what? My understand was if it is a high risk group they should be less than 10. Such as elderly or other immunocompromised.  

No, the doctor who spoke made it clear that they want to reduce all group sizes. She made a specific plea to millennials.

From the President: “My administration is recommending that all Americans, including the young and healthy, work to engage in schooling from home when possible, avoid gathering in groups of more than ten people, avoid discretionary travel and avoid eating and drinking in bars, restaurants, and public food courts,”

[mommyoffive]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

How is that supposed to help?

 

Would it just be keeping people off the streets and hope that there is not going to be violence?   

[Pawz4me]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

How is that supposed to help?

In most areas it will mean people have to stay home (social distancing). It will also probably cut down on traffic accidents, which could in a small way help hospitals from being so overwhelmed.

[Wheres Toto]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

How is that supposed to help?

 

5 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

 

Would it just be keeping people off the streets and hope that there is not going to be violence?   

That's what I"m thinking.   Limit violence, maybe avoid looting?  If everything is closed, those who would rob places might see it as an opportunity.   Make it easier for police, maybe?

Jersey City and Hoboken, which are two cities where young people tend to do a lot of bar crawls on weekends, started with the curfews.    I think it's to make closing everything early more acceptable, and if nothing is open, why would people need to be out?  

[Scarlett]

I am pretty sure I heard the president say work at home if possible.

[Pen]

4 hours ago, plansrme said:

Y'all do know the CDC can recommend all they want, but it is not binding?  The CDC has no police power or even regulatory power, for that matter.  Your organization or governing authority can choose to implement their recommendations, or not, but unless or until they do, it's just an advisory along the lines of, "Get a flu shot."

 

Are you just commenting on CDC Powers ?

Or are you advising people to party hearty, despite what CDC (groups max 50), or President (groups Max 10), guidance suggest? 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

Did anyone else just see the President speak? The guidelines now say to reduce group size to TEN or less.

SKL, I think you're in my state. Did you watch all of the press conference? They got information in the middle of it and now it's ten people or less.

 

No , but I read the report in Reuters

not meaning to be political just giving factual information:

“WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump issued new guidelines on Monday to help fight the coronavirus, including a recommendation that people avoid social gatherings of more than 10 people, discretionary travel, and going to bars, restaurants and food courts. 

Trump said the new guidelines from his coronavirus task force applied for 15 days and were meant to slow the spread of the virus.”

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

In most areas it will mean people have to stay home (social distancing). It will also probably cut down on traffic accidents, which could in a small way help hospitals from being so overwhelmed.

 

It also cuts down load on emergency first responders for problems .  Possibly allows more rest time for stressed medical and emergency services.