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Ktgrok

church and Covid19

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Just now, Murphy101 said:


That’s always been possible though. It’s true every flu season.  It’s true every time someone can’t be vaccinated.  It’s true when people are getting cancer treatments, recovering from organ transplants and more.  I guess all those people the rest of the year are an acceptable risk.  A common cold did my mother in after the treatment for cancer left her with basicly no immune system.  There’s millions of people with severely compromised immune systems all year long.  That argument for not offering mass at all is not holding up.

If we can slow the spread of Covid-19 through social distancing we can potentially save thousands or even millions of lives--by not having it spread exponentially through the population and overwhelm our medical system.

We haven't in our lifetime seen a widespread, novel illness as severe as this. The fact that it is new to the entire population of the world means it can spread faster and farther than common illnesses like the flu, which many people have acquired at least partial immunity to through previous exposure or vaccination.

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I would find it acceptable to only offer mass once a month and have 24 hour adoration available.

In fact, in crisis, I would totally understand that due to the high number of funerals or anointing of the sick, or maybe higher numbers of confessions requested, the priests have to reduce the number of masses offered. 

That is completely different kettle from a preemptive shuttering. 

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Our bishop just closed down everything until further notice.  I'm another one pushed over the edge by this news 😢

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Just found out that services are cancelled for March 15. "Out of an abundance of caution, we are cancelling services...."

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

If there’s no need/value for healthy people to go to Mass or even adoration during a “plague”, then I’m not sure what the need/value is when there isn’t a one.

I find it incomprehensible that there is no way at all to manage having mass.

 

Here's how they're doing it in Rome (although I think these people are standing too close to each other, frankly):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-rome-churche/rome-catholic-churches-ordered-closed-due-to-coronavirus-unprecedented-in-modern-times-idUSKBN20Z3BU

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45 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

That is completely different kettle from a preemptive shuttering. 

Have you read any of the accounts from Italian hospitals?  People are being left in the hallways to die because some hospitals are operating at 200+% capacity and there are simply no rooms or medical supplies to go around.  Doctors and nurses and lay people and anyone else that can be pressed into service are caring for the sick around the clock until they themselves almost inevitably get sick (because masks and other safety equipment are in short supply) and then they are (hopefully) out of commission for 14 days unless they are part of the not insignificant percentage that die.

Now is the only chance we are going to get to delay the spread and impact of the disease here.  And every single day we can delay the spread is going to save countless lives.  Most of us are going to get sick eventually, a certain percentage will require hospitalization, and of those some will needs intensive ICU care.  I think that is pretty much a given, so all we can do now is try to control how many of those patients will need medical services at the same time.  In countries and regions with adequate medical facilities, the fatality rate of COVID is around 1%.  That pales in comparison to the fatality rate in country's whose medical infrastructure is overwhelmed past the breaking point and therefore is offering subpar care to the sick.

If one contagious person, who isn't even showing any symptoms yet, attends a large church gathering, they can easily spread the virus to hundreds of people which will quickly becomes thousands as each goes about their daily lives.  Within days hospitals can be inundated and brought to their knees.  OTOH, if people avoid all large gatherings and self-isolate as much as possible, then we can slow the spread of the disease and the hospitalizations and ensure that everyone receives the best possible care and that the fatality rate is kept as low as possible.

Wendy

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59 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Here's how they're doing it in Rome (although I think these people are standing too close to each other, frankly):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-rome-churche/rome-catholic-churches-ordered-closed-due-to-coronavirus-unprecedented-in-modern-times-idUSKBN20Z3BU


I think that’s thoroughly acceptable.👍

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Our church just sent out an email that services are cancelled this weekend.  The Bishop has given everyone dispensation from attending mass.

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Since the early 1600's the citizens of Oberammergau, Germany have produced the Passion Play every 10 years, which they promised to do if God spared them from the plague.  Ironically, this year's production is in jeopardy of being cancelled.  

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6 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Have you read any of the accounts from Italian hospitals?  People are being left in the hallways to die because some hospitals are operating at 200+% capacity and there are simply no rooms or medical supplies to go around.  Doctors and nurses and lay people and anyone else that can be pressed into service are caring for the sick around the clock until they themselves almost inevitably get sick (because masks and other safety equipment are in short supply) and then they are (hopefully) out of commission for 14 days unless they are part of the not insignificant percentage that die.

One of the problems in Italy is that when the northern territory was placed on lockdown, people fled out of the area to southern regions like Puglia.  Not only did this cause contact with large amounts of people and further spread of the virus, it placed many people in regions that are less well-equipped to handle large populations of critically ill. 

A colleague in China said that Hubei province suffered so dramatically because people rushed to the hospital in a panic, making it difficult to triage and care for those who really needed it.  Having lived through this in China he says that he is not convinced that quarantine is the best in that it can result in deaths in other ways (which the statistics do not pick up).  He says that the main thing is not to stir panic.

I think the church gathering as a community brings lots of benefits.  Some of those with the greatest needs are isolated and need the care of the church community.  While we should certainly be mindful of the risks of gathering as a community, we also need to be aware that there are other risks.  

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Well we’ve just had a cancellation for any non essential gatherings over 500 which affects the big churches . The PM suggested staggered services so there’s smaller groups.  I really don’t know if that would achieve much but we will see.

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Ours suspended services last night and requested people watch live stream. And please still give financial offerings. 

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Our services are going live streaming, too.  Other regular events at the church will continue, as they are smaller.

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13 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

The Church already offers dispensation to the infirm or the ailing and to those who need to be their caregivers. It always has.  People may need sternly reminded of that by their bishops, but there doesn’t need to be a special dispensation.

I’m pretty hard core that there is never a good enough reason for the RCC to refuse to have mass entirely.  How far will this go? No anointing of the sick/last rites?  No baptisms or confirmations?

I have only ever seen that explained as a dispensation for people who are already ill orwho are homebound, never as for all elderly or medically high risk. (ihave heard of people getting an individual dispensation in extreme health cases).  If you have some resources that show that it is much broader, can you please link?

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11 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

If there’s no need/value for healthy people to go to Mass or even adoration during a “plague”, then I’m not sure what the need/value is when there isn’t a one.

I find it incomprehensible that there is no way at all to manage having mass.

 

There will be masses no matter what, they just might be private masses without the people present. They will still have all the infinite value of Jesus’ sacrifice.

 

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If I were Pope... 😉

1. I'd require every priest (including those who aren't pastors ... all those administrator bishops can let the paperwork go for a while) to offer more Masses -- multiple per Sunday. Reinstitute the minor orders of Porters and Usher, immediately ordaining younger laymen (viri probati!) on an emergency basis as Ushers for the traditional task of guarding the entrance, limiting admission to any given mass. Hand massgoers a schedule of the new, plentiful mass times. Ushers guide attendees to their pews, one pew per family. Low masses only, 30 min. max, tell the elderly to go home and stay home. More Masses, not fewer, is safer.

2. Cessation of distribution of the Eucharist. The point is the Mass, not Communing. On the flip side of the new mass schedule will be instructions for making a Spiritual Communion.

3. General dispensation from Mass obligation in any area affected by Coronavirus. Most Catholics are under the impression they have no Mass obligation anyway; maybe a dispensation would remind them they in fact have to go every Sunday.

4. Seize the opportunity to permanently suppress Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers, Communion on the (nasty germy) hand, Communion under both species, and the Sign of Peace outside a High Mass where it stops at the Subdeacon and the congregation has nothing to do with it.

5. So as not to be too Traddy, Pope Violet would revive the 1980s tradition of Communal Absolution outside of auricular Confession. This would take place 10 minutes before Mass started, and end with a prayer to St Rocco, the too-long-ignored patron invoked against plague. 

Meanwhile, the Crown family will behave as if these things were already the case.

Edited by Violet Crown
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36 minutes ago, Spudater said:

I have only ever seen that explained as a dispensation for people who are already ill orwho are homebound, never as for all elderly or medically high risk. (ihave heard of people getting an individual dispensation in extreme health cases).  If you have some resources that show that it is much broader, can you please link?


I don’t have a particular source because it’s always been that way. Some people may have chosen to interpret it more strictly but the wording is not as strict or narrow as you suggest. At some point we have to look at the actual words and take them at face value.

Lenten sacrifice is a great example of the RCC not being as strict and narrow as many rightly practice. For example, the rules of fasting and abstaining are relaxed for anyone over 70, under a certain young age I’m blanking on (I *think* 12), AND anyone sick or infirm.  It doesn’t say “over 70 and too sick to do it” though that is most often how it is interpreted in the spirit of intent to do good. And rightly so.

And there is usually nothing wrong with taking that narrower stance bc those rules are in place intending to meet a valid need - not as a catch all excuse to not do what we know we should do.

But the actual words have value too. Over 70? That alone is enough to materially excuse. If there is nothing else going on and they are just 70 and want a steak on Friday and are pulling this rule as a reason to do that? Imo I’d agree that is probably worthy of some spiritual scrutiny for them to address with their confessor, but not anything the general population would be able to know. 

So I say again. No one in the laity needs a special dispensation to avoid contagion spread.

Edited by Murphy101
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30 minutes ago, Violet Crown said:

If I were Pope... 😉

1. I'd require every priest (including those who aren't pastors ... all those administrator bishops can let the paperwork go for a while) to offer more Masses -- multiple per Sunday. Reinstitute the minor orders of Porters and Usher, immediately ordaining younger laymen (viri probati!) on an emergency basis as Ushers for the traditional task of guarding the entrance, limiting admission to any given mass. Hand massgoers a schedule of the new, plentiful mass times. Ushers guide attendees to their pews, one pew per family. Low masses only, 30 min. max, tell the elderly to go home and stay home. More Masses, not fewer, is safer.

2. Cessation of distribution of the Eucharist. The point is the Mass, not Communing. On the flip side of the new mass schedule will be instructions for making a Spiritual Communion.

3. General dispensation from Mass obligation in any area affected by Coronavirus. Most Catholics are under the impression they have no Mass obligation anyway; maybe a dispensation would remind them they in fact have to go every Sunday.

4. Seize the opportunity to permanently suppress Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers, Communion on the (nasty germy) hand, Communion under both species, and the Sign of Peace outside a High Mass where it stops at the Subdeacon and the congregation has nothing to do with it.

5. So as not to be too Traddy, Pope Violet would revive the 1980s tradition of Communal Absolution outside of auricular Confession. This would take place 10 minutes before Mass started, and end with a prayer to St Rocco, the too-long-ignored patron invoked against plague. 

Meanwhile, the Crown family will behave as if these things were already the case.


I could be on board with all of that. 👍

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4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:


I don’t have a particular source because it’s always been that way. Some people may have chosen to interpret it more strictly but the wording is not as strict or narrow as you suggest. At some point we have to look at the actual words and take them at face value.

Lenten sacrifice is a great example of the RCC not being as strict and narrow as many rightly practice. For example, the rules of fasting and abstaining are relaxed for anyone over 70, under a certain young age I’m blanking on (I *think* 12), AND anyone sick or infirm.  It doesn’t say “over 70 and too sick to do it” though that is most often how it is interpreted in the spirit of intent to do good. And rightly so.

And there is usually nothing wrong with taking that narrower stance bc those rules are in place intending to meet a valid need - not as a catch all excuse to not do what we know we should do.

But the actual words have value too. Over 70? That alone is enough to materially excuse. If there is nothing else going on and they are just 70 and want a steak on Friday and are pulling this rule as a reason to do that? Imo I’d agree that is probably worthy of some spiritual scrutiny for them to address with their confessor, but not anything the general population would be able to know. 

So I say again. No one in the laity needs a special dispensation to avoid contagion spread.

It’s what I’ve been told by priests my whole life. I’ve never found anything to contradict them and support your interpretation in the years I was getting a BA in theology or the years since I’ve been teaching catechism to my kids. I’ve been googling it to see ifI can find anything. 🤷‍♀️  

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19 minutes ago, Spudater said:

It’s what I’ve been told by priests my whole life. I’ve never found anything to contradict them and support your interpretation in the years I was getting a BA in theology or the years since I’ve been teaching catechism to my kids. I’ve been googling it to see ifI can find anything. 🤷‍♀️  


Okay. We can argue interpretation like Protestants or we can take the words as the facts that they are. Intent does matter, but the fact that the words are not written that narrowly matters too. There’s a valid reason for it. Such as plagues and other factors. 

It also doesn’t say exactly at what wind speed we don’t have to attend mass but  I don’t need a special dispensation to not go  to mass during tornadic conditions. It still doesn’t mean I’m valid to say I don’t have to go to mass on days with a slight summer breeze because what I really want to do is go fly a kite. And if I did do that, my confessor would be entirely right to correct me. Same as my confessor would be entirely right to correct me for scrupulously if I insisted on driving up to the church while the tornado sirens are going off.

Again, I’m fine with the bishops reminding the laity that they have dispensation.  My quibble was that they don’t need to create  a special general dispensation to give. 

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1 hour ago, Violet Crown said:

So as not to be too Traddy, Pope Violet would revive the 1980s tradition of Communal Absolution outside of auricular Confession.

I am impressed with your list except for this small section. I'm too Traddy to be on board w/Pope Violet on this one.

But I'm definitely looking up St Rocco. Sounds like a good saint to be asking for intercession from at this time.

No word on Masses locally, but since my area still has their head in the sand, I'm expecting Mass to go on as scheduled for now. I will have to decide if I allow my sons to serve next to our glad-handing Parish Priest. He'll definitely get it if it is in our community. (He's young but he gets sick easily.)

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15 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

The Church already offers dispensation to the infirm or the ailing and to those who need to be their caregivers. It always has.  People may need sternly reminded of that by their bishops, but there doesn’t need to be a special dispensation.

I’m pretty hard core that there is never a good enough reason for the RCC to refuse to have mass entirely.  How far will this go? No anointing of the sick/last rites?  No baptisms or confirmations?

Dallas' Bishop offered a dispensation yesterday to people deemed high risk by the CDC -- the particulars are listed in his statement (people over 60, with chronic illnesses, etc.).

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35 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:


Okay. We can argue interpretation like Protestants or we can take the words as the facts that they are. Intent does matter, but the fact that the words are not written that narrowly matters too. There’s a valid reason for it. Such as plagues and other factors. 

It also doesn’t say exactly at what wind speed we don’t have to attend mass but  I don’t need a special dispensation to not go  to mass during tornadic conditions. It still doesn’t mean I’m valid to say I don’t have to go to mass on days with a slight summer breeze because what I really want to do is go fly a kite. And if I did do that, my confessor would be entirely right to correct me. Same as my confessor would be entirely right to correct me for scrupulously if I insisted on driving up to the church while the tornado sirens are going off.

Again, I’m fine with the bishops reminding the laity that they have dispensation.  My quibble was that they don’t need to create  a special general dispensation to give. 

Nevermind. I was going to post pictures from the CCC and the Baltimore Catechism and a link to canon law and why I don’t think it’s at all obvious that people who are merely high risk but not actually ill are dispensed but I really don’t don’t see the point in arguing with you.

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Here is the email our church sent out, which strikes a pretty good balance, I think.  I snipped a few bits out but I’m pleased they finally decided something, I was poking them all day yesterday.
 

Quote

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

 

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." These are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ from John 14:27.  Having told his disciples that he was going away, he comforted them with the knowledge that the Holy Spirit would always be with them.

 

Brothers and sisters, as the world tries to understand what is going on with the COVID-19 virus, we are observing a level of fear in our nation that most of us have not previously experienced.  Life is changing before our eyes as schools close, events are canceled, and people are running to the supermarket to stock up on supplies.  Hospitals are preparing for the worst and government officials are taking drastic measures.

 

Dear church family, as God's children, we should not be overcome by this fear.  Our Jesus reigns.  He cares for us and he knows what we need.  We must not allow our actions to be motivated by unbelief, but rather now is the time to trust Jesus as you may have never trusted him before!  God is faithful!  Let not your hearts be troubled!

 

Even as we trust God through this time of uncertainty, it seems prudent based on the recommendation of our government officials and medical experts to modify some of our activities so that we can show love to one another and to our neighbors here in this area. Here is our plan until further notice:

 

  • There will be no 9:00 Sunday School classes until further notice.
  • There will be no nursery care until further notice.
  • Our 10:30 am Sunday morning worship will continue as normal.
  • Our 6:00 pm Sunday evening service will continue as normal.
  • We are canceling the fellowship meal scheduled for March 29.
  • The church office will remain open as normal.
  • If you are planning to stay home and watch live stream look for another email with instructions on how to connect to the live stream video.

 

As we seek to love one another, please bear in mind the following guidance:

 

  • If you or your children have any cold or flu symptoms of any kind (runny nose, sore throat, fever, coughing, sneezing, etc.), please consider your neighbors and do not come to church gatherings.  COVID-19 can present as a cold in children, but be serious for others.
  • If you or your children have had within 2 weeks any cold or flu symptoms, please stay away.
  • If you are older or have a chronic disease like diabetes, heart disease, or respiratory problems, you should stay away.  We will find ways to minister to you!
  • If you decide you must self-quarantine, please let your elder know so that we may be aware and pray for you!
  • While present at our gatherings, try to refrain from touching others (shaking hands, hugging, etc.) if at all possible.
  • We are actively working to acquire technology that will improve our ability to stream our services at a higher quality and hope to have that online as soon as possible.

 

The elders will continue to monitor this situation and make any needed changes to the plan if the situation warrants or the guidance from government officials and medical experts changes.  Please pray for us to have God's wisdom in this as we lead.

 

Finally, the elders would like to remind everyone that we have here a God-ordained opportunity.  The world is watching to see how Christians will respond in this situation.  Will we hoard soap and toilet paper and food? Or will we reach out to others with the love of Christ and consider others as more important than ourselves? Will we panic? Or will we exemplify a peace that passes all understanding?  Will we hide our light under a bushel?  Or will we shine it brightly?  Now is a great opportunity for gospel witness!  Let's embrace it with uncommon joy!

Edited by Arctic Mama
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17 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m pretty upset at the idea of all catholic masses being canceled. It seems to me the better response would be to add more masses so that people can attend in smaller groups and be more spread out in the pews.  Possible permit outdoor masses to reduce spread as well.

We will be at mass if we are not sick.

I think it is awful that the Bishop of Oregon, and Oregon is a hot spot, will still be doing communion on the tongue.  Talk about spreading disease-outrageous

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17 hours ago, Spudater said:

The feasibility of that will depend on your local conditions. Canon law allows a priest to say a maximum of three Masses on a Sunday. Our parish Mass schedule is chock full and both priests are already saying their maximum. And there are definitely too many of us there to spread out. For us, I think it would be a better move for the bishop to issue a blanket dispensation from the Sunday obligation for all elderly and those with health conditions that increase their risk. Frankly, way too many Catholics think it makes them extra pious to come when sick.  My second oldest almost died as a baby from a virus we caught at Mass. I’m pregnant right now and the number of Catholics on social media saying they will come to Mass no matter what and we all just need to have faith is seriously stressing me out. I would love a dispensation for myself right now...

Please don't go.  God is a God of Grace.  God is in charge, not any human.   As it is, the Archbishop in Milwaukee, has issued a dispensation.  Do not think that God is interested in hierachical wars--- just take his dispensation and stay home.  https://fox6now.com/2020/03/12/archbishop-listecki-catholics-are-free-of-obligation-to-attend-sunday-mass-for-a-couple-weeks/

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10 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I think it is awful that the Bishop of Oregon, and Oregon is a hot spot, will still be doing communion on the tongue.  Talk about spreading disease-outrageous

He did say that the health authorities told the diocese it wasn't any more hazardous than communing on the hand. I know the talking point in trad circles lately is that the priest's fingers don't touch lips or tongue unless the communicant does it wrong, but that isn't my experience (especially when one of the priests used to the New Mass gets drafted to help distribute).

The obvious thing is to suspend distributing the Eucharist to the laity at all. But Catholics today tend to think communion is the whole point of Mass, so somehow this standard practice of the previous 2000 years is unthinkable now.

ETA: Pretty sure no bishop has the canonical right to forbid communion by mouth unless all communing is banned.

Edited by Violet Crown
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17 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

 

All this. And I don't mean it lightly. Honestly, churches not having services is kind of the thing tipping me over the "oh wow this is super serious" ledge. But I know the catholic churches here have maybe 500 per service, with standing room only, with 1 on saturday and 4 on sunday already. Even if you add 3 more on Saturday...still not enough and who would do it? And since the virus can live on surfaces, you'd have to have a team sanitizing the pews in between, or you could catch it from an empty pew. And with stores OUT of sanitizing cleaners, out of alcohol, out of nearly everything (I snagged some peroxide when I ordered today, but not at all confident it will actually be delivered), plus no hand sanitizer available, so you can't say, well, use that...it's bad. 

And the priest does "wash" with water before handing out communion, but certainly not for 20 seconds with soap. And of course, the idea of a priest who can't touch you at all..it's very distressing all around. I don't knw what the right answer is, but I think a dispensation for anyone worried about the virus is a good idea. And I agree that it is VERY upsetting when I hear about people who seem to think it makes them holy to show up to church no matter how sick. 

Totally agree.  Here is the dispensation from Milwaukee Archbishop= https://fox6now.com/2020/03/12/archbishop-listecki-catholics-are-free-of-obligation-to-attend-sunday-mass-for-a-couple-weeks/

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16 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

The Church already offers dispensation to the infirm or the ailing and to those who need to be their caregivers. It always has.  People may need sternly reminded of that by their bishops, but there doesn’t need to be a special dispensation.

I’m pretty hard core that there is never a good enough reason for the RCC to refuse to have mass entirely.  How far will this go? No anointing of the sick/last rites?  No baptisms or confirmations?

Look at what Lombardy area of Italy is doing.  Take that as an example.  Remember, Jesus said that after Loving God, the second rule is Love Your Neighbor.  Your neighbor includes the medical staff that gets overwhelmed with patients and some of whom die, even though not old or with underlying conditions  Your neighbor includes the elderly.  Your neighbor includes the people with underlying conditions.  Jesus preached all the time how love is more important than rules (which was why the Pharisees and Sadducees were upset with him).

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12 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Have you read any of the accounts from Italian hospitals?  People are being left in the hallways to die because some hospitals are operating at 200+% capacity and there are simply no rooms or medical supplies to go around.  Doctors and nurses and lay people and anyone else that can be pressed into service are caring for the sick around the clock until they themselves almost inevitably get sick (because masks and other safety equipment are in short supply) and then they are (hopefully) out of commission for 14 days unless they are part of the not insignificant percentage that die.

Now is the only chance we are going to get to delay the spread and impact of the disease here.  And every single day we can delay the spread is going to save countless lives.  Most of us are going to get sick eventually, a certain percentage will require hospitalization, and of those some will needs intensive ICU care.  I think that is pretty much a given, so all we can do now is try to control how many of those patients will need medical services at the same time.  In countries and regions with adequate medical facilities, the fatality rate of COVID is around 1%.  That pales in comparison to the fatality rate in country's whose medical infrastructure is overwhelmed past the breaking point and therefore is offering subpar care to the sick.

If one contagious person, who isn't even showing any symptoms yet, attends a large church gathering, they can easily spread the virus to hundreds of people which will quickly becomes thousands as each goes about their daily lives.  Within days hospitals can be inundated and brought to their knees.  OTOH, if people avoid all large gatherings and self-isolate as much as possible, then we can slow the spread of the disease and the hospitalizations and ensure that everyone receives the best possible care and that the fatality rate is kept as low as possible.

Wendy

That one person scenario is why South Korea has had that huge outbreak.  That one person went to a megachurch and the people who had no idea they were infected because of no symptoms went on with their lives.

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 I go to a Protestant mega church....I am really frustrated to hear that they haven’t said anything yet.  We won’t be going.  
 

 The first case was just confirmed here in Alabama today, but we all know it’s been here for a while.  

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Our church is cancelled and it is viewed as a sacrifice, a love your neighbor sort of thing.  We're not terrified and we want to meet but being proactive to not spread disease is more important than us meeting as usual.

I see some people irl being proud to not take precautions and they label everyone else as fearful.  It is not fearful in our case, it is loving

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34 minutes ago, Violet Crown said:

ETA: Pretty sure no bishop has the canonical right to forbid communion by mouth unless all communing is banned.

According to Fr. Ralph (he who said, "Please don't lick the priest.") they can't forbid communion by mouth but at our parish, the priests and eucharistic ministers would very much appreciate people receiving communion on their hand. 

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1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I am impressed with your list except for this small section. I'm too Traddy to be on board w/Pope Violet on this one.

But I'm definitely looking up St Rocco. Sounds like a good saint to be asking for intercession from at this time.

No word on Masses locally, but since my area still has their head in the sand, I'm expecting Mass to go on as scheduled for now. I will have to decide if I allow my sons to serve next to our glad-handing Parish Priest. He'll definitely get it if it is in our community. (He's young but he gets sick easily.)

I am not on board with the general absolution either, but if we all just go be traddy all of the rest is already in place in the TLM.  If it could be implemented other places it would make it easier to find an acceptable Mass when going on vacation (when we get to have those again).

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Ours just announced online for the foreseeable future.

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I just saw a fb post from our church that basically sounds like they aren’t cancelling anything.  I am pretty much livid.  We are talking thousands of people every Sunday.  

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1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

I am not on board with the general absolution either, but if we all just go be traddy all of the rest is already in place in the TLM.  If it could be implemented other places it would make it easier to find an acceptable Mass when going on vacation (when we get to have those again).

I'm just thinking of all those people with their faces close up against the screen, while Father leans over close to hear.

A friend who used to go to the Central American "magnet" parish in town said confessions there were generally outdoors, with Father in a chair against a tree trunk, facing away from the confession line, and penitents kneeling on the other side of the tree. It's really hard to overhear in the open air, so there's privacy and hygiene in one place. I could go for that solution.

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3 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Here is the email our church sent out, which strikes a pretty good balance, I think.  I snipped a few bits out but I’m pleased they finally decided something, I was poking them all day yesterday.
 

That is excellent!

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13 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

That is excellent!

I thought it was good!  I emailed and asked them to please be cautious because we have so many vulnerable congregation members, and at the same time some of the men (of course) were getting riled about forced closures applying to churches and first amendment protection, which our church is particularly sensitive to because we have a very close relationship with churches in China that are being ransacked by government regulation and barred from meeting, people imprisoned we know, etc.  One of our elders and his wife were Chinese citizens, and now are dual.  So it’s something they worry about for sure.

Throwing all that in the hopper for the elders meeting last night they came up with a solution that was very balanced for our particular congregation and needs - we have a lot of seating and with individuals quarantining who need to the main sanctuary shouldn’t be a total cesspool, plus we broadcast, and the areas of church we have seen transmission like wildfire (nursery and children’s ministry) are just shut down.  In home discipleship groups can still meet as people want and are able, but the caution on that is obviously that anyone sick or with sick family stay out.

I feel like they didn’t ignore the concerns of either side, and that’s about the best one can do.  And I did very much appreciate the biblical encouragement.  I figured if any other churches are struggling that I’d share the response here to give them ideas, if nothing else.  This is a TOUGH situation to handle in a way that loves our neighbor and also doesn’t forsake teaching, prayer, and fellowship.

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My church announced today that they are cancelling the next 2 Sundays of services and will reevaluate after that.  They will live stream 2 services each week from the church (one traditional service and one contemporary).  Small groups are still meeting at the discretion of the leaders of those groups.  One of the Sundays a Baptism was scheduled, that will continue as planned with only the babies and parents present (siblings from one family...not multiple families).  

My church is also collecting food and supplies for those in need.  They will have someone collecting the items directly from you as you drive up so no need to even get out of your car.  I thought this was very kind and a nice thing to do.

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3 hours ago, happi duck said:

I see some people irl being proud to not take precautions and they label everyone else as fearful.  It is not fearful in our case, it is loving

 

+1

All the churches (of any size) in our diocese are closed until further notice. I'm really glad, because some people in church were openly antagonistic about any health measures whatsoever being taken. 

https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2020/03/13/diocese-by-diocese-list-of-announcements-in-response-to-coronavirus-outbreak/

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Our church just sent out their plan (subject to change). Their adding services so that the gatherings can be smaller. They're also taking steps to make everything touch-free (no food in the cafe, gloves door holders and such). 

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4 hours ago, Violet Crown said:

He did say that the health authorities told the diocese it wasn't any more hazardous than communing on the hand. I know the talking point in trad circles lately is that the priest's fingers don't touch lips or tongue unless the communicant does it wrong, but that isn't my experience (especially when one of the priests used to the New Mass gets drafted to help distribute).

The obvious thing is to suspend distributing the Eucharist to the laity at all. But Catholics today tend to think communion is the whole point of Mass, so somehow this standard practice of the previous 2000 years is unthinkable now.

ETA: Pretty sure no bishop has the canonical right to forbid communion by mouth unless all communing is banned.

Well and that is why the Catholic Church needs to get modern and also go with the Bible.  There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about how communion will be shared.   But I already knew that the Catholic Church isn't looking out for disabled and sick people.  Recent stories about how the autistic boy won't be able to get communion,  how the celiacs can't ever get communion, and now this-  legalism above love.  And Jesus preached Love and Grace-  not legalism.

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19 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

+1

All the churches (of any size) in our diocese are closed until further notice. I'm really glad, because some people in church were openly antagonistic about any health measures whatsoever being taken. 

https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2020/03/13/diocese-by-diocese-list-of-announcements-in-response-to-coronavirus-outbreak/

Same here.  Last week a couple guys made a big show of shaking hands during the peace when we had just been asked not to.  They weren't "giving in to fear".  Ugh.  I don't get that attitude.  (Presuming it is fear)

We have so many ways to "meet" nowadays.  I really appreciate that face-to-face isn't seen as the only thing that "counts"

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7 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well and that is why the Catholic Church needs to get modern and also go with the Bible.  There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about how communion will be shared.   But I already knew that the Catholic Church isn't looking out for disabled and sick people.  Recent stories about how the autistic boy won't be able to get communion,  how the celiacs can't ever get communion, and now this-  legalism above love.  And Jesus preached Love and Grace-  not legalism.

Okay.

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40 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

+1

All the churches (of any size) in our diocese are closed until further notice. I'm really glad, because some people in church were openly antagonistic about any health measures whatsoever being taken. 

https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2020/03/13/diocese-by-diocese-list-of-announcements-in-response-to-coronavirus-outbreak/

There have been at least four attendees at a meeting of an Episcopalian Consortium have been diagnosed with coronavirus.  The rector at my church is one of them (and was the first case in my area.)

 

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4 hours ago, Violet Crown said:

 

The obvious thing is to suspend distributing the Eucharist to the laity at all. But Catholics today tend to think communion is the whole point of Mass, so somehow this standard practice of the previous 2000 years is unthinkable now.

ETA: Pretty sure no bishop has the canonical right to forbid communion by mouth unless all communing is banned.

Agree entirely. They need to show leadership by making that decision themselves, not relying on the parishoners to figure it all out. That's the whole point of a magesterium!

4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Look at what Lombardy area of Italy is doing.  Take that as an example.  Remember, Jesus said that after Loving God, the second rule is Love Your Neighbor.  Your neighbor includes the medical staff that gets overwhelmed with patients and some of whom die, even though not old or with underlying conditions  Your neighbor includes the elderly.  Your neighbor includes the people with underlying conditions.  Jesus preached all the time how love is more important than rules (which was why the Pharisees and Sadducees were upset with him).

YESSSSS And I'd add that how we love our neighbor is how we love God. How we treat the least of these is how we treat God. Perhaps a paraphrase along the lines of, "I was a senior with COPD and you infected me" might go a long way. 

4 hours ago, happi duck said:

Our church is cancelled and it is viewed as a sacrifice, a love your neighbor sort of thing.  We're not terrified and we want to meet but being proactive to not spread disease is more important than us meeting as usual.

I see some people irl being proud to not take precautions and they label everyone else as fearful.  It is not fearful in our case, it is loving

Yes! They claim it is not giving into fear, but I have a feeling it is more the sin of pride. 

39 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

+1

All the churches (of any size) in our diocese are closed until further notice. I'm really glad, because some people in church were openly antagonistic about any health measures whatsoever being taken. 

https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2020/03/13/diocese-by-diocese-list-of-announcements-in-response-to-coronavirus-outbreak/

And despite having cases here, my diocese has crickets. Figures. 

16 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well and that is why the Catholic Church needs to get modern and also go with the Bible.  There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about how communion will be shared.   But I already knew that the Catholic Church isn't looking out for disabled and sick people.  Recent stories about how the autistic boy won't be able to get communion,  how the celiacs can't ever get communion, and now this-  legalism above love.  And Jesus preached Love and Grace-  not legalism.

I hear your concerns and share some of them, but I don't think Christians attacking Christians is a good thing right now. Peace. 

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20 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well and that is why the Catholic Church needs to get modern and also go with the Bible.  There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about how communion will be shared.   But I already knew that the Catholic Church isn't looking out for disabled and sick people.  Recent stories about how the autistic boy won't be able to get communion,  how the celiacs can't ever get communion, and now this-  legalism above love.  And Jesus preached Love and Grace-  not legalism.

I am very sad that you think this is a charitable way to address your brothers and sisters in Christ.  Maybe it is coming across wrong?   

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2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

And despite having cases here, my diocese has crickets. Figures. 

 

 

Well give it a minute. This was a hard turn from the release put out less than a week ago, which basically said "meh." I am paraphrasing lol.

Edited by OKBud

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29 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well and that is why the Catholic Church needs to get modern and also go with the Bible.  There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about how communion will be shared.   But I already knew that the Catholic Church isn't looking out for disabled and sick people.  Recent stories about how the autistic boy won't be able to get communion,  how the celiacs can't ever get communion, and now this-  legalism above love.  And Jesus preached Love and Grace-  not legalism.


You can’t get more biblical than Jesus specifically saying he did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.  Jesus had no issue with the law.  His issue was with people perverting the law to suit their own desires. He actually preached love and grace and law.  People walked away bc he told them the law and they didn’t like it  He did not change the law to whatever would make it easier.

I can have compassion and love for the struggles of my fellows without agreeing with them.

6 minutes ago, SilverBrook said:

I am very sad that you think this is a charitable way to address your brothers and sisters in Christ.  Maybe it is coming across wrong?   

 
I think it came across just fine.  She is free to be honest and I am free to honestly explain why I think she is wrong in that stance.

Love is not dependent on agreement or acceptance of opinions.

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