Am I the only one not overly worried about Covid19?

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

It's not that so many kids are in homes where parents have the financial means to feed them but choose not to, but that so many families don't have the financial means to feed their children adequately.  They don't want to give money to families, so they feed the kids (crap cafeteria meals) at school to 'solve' the problem.

Seems more likely, but was not was the poster I was responding to was saying I don’t think.  She was saying there’s already financial support and it doesn’t work.  Anyway I reckon that’s all going to turn political.  
 

one news site said the “NBD” versus the let’s plan crowds were divided on political lines in US.  I kind of didn’t believe it but maybe it’s true.

[Ausmumof3]

I know I’ve seen in Aus there are Extra measures being taken to try to stop it getting into remote indigenous communities.  I can’t remember exactly what but I’m glad it’s being planned for.

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 one news site said the “NBD” versus the let’s plan crowds were divided on political lines in US.  I kind of didn’t believe it but maybe it’s true.

In the media, yes, but among everyday people, not so much.  Of course some people are reacting based on what the media is saying, but most are reacting based on what life experience and common sense teaches them.  (At least among people I interact with.)

The same media that is now encouraging extreme responses was initially pushing back when the early steps were taken to reduce risk.  IMO that is evidence of media being political vs. neutral or logical.  But we are used to that, so we have a "healthy" skepticism about what we hear in the media.

[SKL]

Although the US has some of the largest populations of Chinese people living outside China (i.e. people who were most likely to have traveled to & from China recently), the US also has one of the lowest rates of infection so far vs. comparable countries.  So far the evidence doesn't support the argument that US reaction is going to lead to Armageddon.  Of course time could prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

[Ausmumof3]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

In the media, yes, but among everyday people, not so much.  Of course some people are reacting based on what the media is saying, but most are reacting based on what life experience and common sense teaches them.  (At least among people I interact with.)

The same media that is now encouraging extreme responses was initially pushing back when the early steps were taken to reduce risk.  IMO that is evidence of media being political vs. neutral or logical.  But we are used to that, so we have a "healthy" skepticism about what we hear in the media.

Interesting 

it’s been the opposite here.  commercial Media were pushing back quite hard against the official “no big deal” messaging and questioning stuff.  
 

I would say from what I’ve seen on this forum it seems to be somewhat along party lines but I don’t know everyone’s affiliations obviously, just based on the usual discussions here.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Pawz4me]

18 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:
 

I would say from what I’ve seen on this forum it seems to be somewhat along party lines but I don’t know everyone’s affiliations obviously, just based on the usual discussions here.

I think you’re right, at least for the majority of posters. 

[Pawz4me]

39 minutes ago, SKL said:

The same media that is now encouraging extreme responses was initially pushing back when the early steps were taken to reduce risk.  IMO that is evidence of media being political vs. neutral or logical.  But we are used to that, so we have a "healthy" skepticism about what we hear in the media.

I swear I wonder where some of you people get your news. I truly do. Or are perceptions truly that different?

Edited March 10, 2020 by Pawz4me
Typo

[Pen]

40 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Seems more likely, but was not was the poster I was responding to was saying I don’t think.  She was saying there’s already financial support and it doesn’t work.  Anyway I reckon that’s all going to turn political.  
 

one news site said the “NBD” versus the let’s plan crowds were divided on political lines in US.  I kind of didn’t believe it but maybe it’s true.

 

What’s NBD stand for?

I don’t think irl I know that “let’s plan” people are from a particular political line.

 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

What’s NBD stand for?

I don’t think irl I know that “let’s plan” people are from a particular political line.

 

No big deal

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Which is why better social security systems are a good idea.  

 

No argument from me.  I have long been  proponent of the minimum income concept and universal healthcare and family-friendly work policies.

[Paige]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Seems more likely, but was not was the poster I was responding to was saying I don’t think.  She was saying there’s already financial support and it doesn’t work.  Anyway I reckon that’s all going to turn political.  
 

one news site said the “NBD” versus the let’s plan crowds were divided on political lines in US.  I kind of didn’t believe it but maybe it’s true.

I don't know what the other poster meant, but we have programs to help people with food, but people's lives are complex. I imagine if your budget is tight and you *plan* to have your kids eating free or reduced breakfasts and lunches at school, if there's prolonged, unexpected school closures there may not be money left in the budget to go out and buy more food. Also, many people prepay for school lunches so the money may have already been spent, but now won't be available to feed their kids until school resumes.

If your budget is really tight, even if you have been as responsible as possible, unexpected expenses can mean tough choices. There are neglectful parents, but those aren't the only ones whose kids may suffer. I hope if we do have to close schools that there are plans in place and funds available to help these kids.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Although the US has some of the largest populations of Chinese people living outside China (i.e. people who were most likely to have traveled to & from China recently), the US also has one of the lowest rates of infection so far vs. comparable countries.  So far the evidence doesn't support the argument that US reaction is going to lead to Armageddon.  Of course time could prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

Uh, we have no tests. Like, virtually none. We know this is super-contaigious and we're doing *nothing* to figure out who has it before it explodes exponentially.  Why do you assume we have low infection? We are doing a poorer job with testing  and factual reporting of stats than China itself. 

If you don't look, you don't find it. Until so many people are sick it's too late.

When they have bothered to contact trace even half-heartedly, it doesn't look good. A number of known cases out of one meeting in Boston, for example. How many people from just that meeting are non-symptomatic and spreading it?

Edited March 10, 2020 by Matryoshka

[TravelingChris]

On 3/8/2020 at 1:29 PM, Murphy101 said:

That makes me so mad. It can’t be all that uncommon for someone to need to travel or they get sick and can’t get to the pharmacy. So if only the week you can get it refilled before you will run is also the week you are required to be on an out of town business trip? Or you get the flu? 

The Canadian pharmacy we use sends out a weather notice that they will allow early orders to avoid snow or ice preventing people getting their meds in a timely manner. They do the same during The worst of summer too so that meds doing go bad in the heat despite being packed with ice.  Seriously. I happily sing the Canadian anthem.  My husband would be screwed without them for insulin. 

That is my insurance policy too.  And the people at the other end say if your state declares an emergency, you can get early refills. Well in my part of the state, tornadoes are the normal main threat- - and the emergency declerations only come after things are destroyed or power is out or you have to evacuate.  No help at all.  We can use early renewal two times in a year.

[TravelingChris]

On 3/8/2020 at 9:10 PM, happysmileylady said:

have a question about "high risk populations."  

Given the symptoms of this (cough, fever, shortness of breath) aren't those populations *already at high risk* this time of year?  I mean these high risk populations are more likely to die of CV19 than I or my kids are.  BUT....is this more likely to be deadly to those high risk populations than the flu or other diseases that immunosuppressed populations are at risk of?   If an 80 yr old catches this, is it more likely to be deadly than if she catches influenza?  Other than the fact that it's currently a new virus that no one in the high risk population has any sort of immunity to, is it way more dangerous to these people than any of the other diseases that could kill them?

Yes, yes it is.  I will not die of flu because I have been vaccinated (and the vaccines have worked on me for 35 years).  I will not be getting 36 strains of diseases that cause pneumonia because I have had both pneumonia vaccines within the last three years.  But I am a very high risk person because I have more than one respiratory illness or illness that causes respiratory issues, and also have treated high blood pressure and also am on immuno-suppressants and finally, I am only 3 years younger than 60.    

This disease damages lungs in a particularly harmful way.  Many people get two very serious lung complications.  getting lung collapses is also a risk with this disease and I have had a partial lung collapse before and that puts me at risk for another one--- one that I didn't mention above when recounting my risks.

I was not worried but cautious.  But that has changed with the CDC recommendation to have us high risk patients basically isolate.  I can no longer go to my classes, Bible study, church, women's group, restaurants, stores, concerts, plays, etc, etc.  And that isn't for 14 days-  it is for the time this thing is a big problem here in the States.    So Yes- it is a huge problem.  And this recommendation was relayed to me by the Arthritis Foundation for all of us with autoimmune forms of arthritis.  I am sure that other autoimmune diseases are also in the high risk group.

[Pen]

5 hours ago, kand said:

 

@SKL said:

People citing death rates from the flu - it depends on what flu you're talking about.  There have been various flus that have had higher death rates.  I have never in my 53 years seen recommendations for well people to stay home (unless certainly exposed to something like ebola).

 

Sorry @kand it was @SKL who said that — I thought I could use quote and get one in the other but it didn’t work. 

@SKL  since it is happening now for first time in your 53 years, as some major (and minor) universities are shifting to online, some major corporations asking employees not to travel, etc, do you think heads of Princeton, Uof Washington, Amazon, etc are all extremely stupid and hysterical? 

 

[Ausmumof3]

20 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, yes it is.  I will not die of flu because I have been vaccinated (and the vaccines have worked on me for 35 years).  I will not be getting 36 strains of diseases that cause pneumonia because I have had both pneumonia vaccines within the last three years.  But I am a very high risk person because I have more than one respiratory illness or illness that causes respiratory issues, and also have treated high blood pressure and also am on immuno-suppressants and finally, I am only 3 years younger than 60.    

This disease damages lungs in a particularly harmful way.  Many people get two very serious lung complications.  getting lung collapses is also a risk with this disease and I have had a partial lung collapse before and that puts me at risk for another one--- one that I didn't mention above when recounting my risks.

I was not worried but cautious.  But that has changed with the CDC recommendation to have us high risk patients basically isolate.  I can no longer go to my classes, Bible study, church, women's group, restaurants, stores, concerts, plays, etc, etc.  And that isn't for 14 days-  it is for the time this thing is a big problem here in the States.    So Yes- it is a huge problem.  And this recommendation was relayed to me by the Arthritis Foundation for all of us with autoimmune forms of arthritis.  I am sure that other autoimmune diseases are also in the high risk group.

Yes this seems like a way of dealing without dealing.  If we are asking high risk groups to stay home so the rest of us don’t have to what extra supports are we putting in place for people in those groups.  If we’ve decided it’s going to be endemic and we aren’t stopping it they may have to stay home for months not just a couple of weeks.

[TravelingChris]

Yes. that is what the CDC decided.  Instead of testing back in late Jan and February and even now, it has come to the point that millions are told to stay home--not the ones who traveled on those cruise ships or to the countries,  And unfortunately, the stay home deal applies to my 23 year old daughter too who can't stay home- she works.  She can do more work at home but not all of it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Our local schools are closed. It is very obvious that the people in charge were listening several weeks ago when the CDC said to make plans. It's not perfect; they can't provide childcare and the school can't solve parents' work and income problems. But they did the best they could. There is a plan for two meals and snacks for any family that needs them (to be picked up in a no-contact manner), and there is a plan for schoolwork. They have e-learning set up, but they also have paperwork packets for families that do not have internet access. They offered a lot of guidance and advice, and said that the school district had worked with the state department of education, the county health commissioner, the state department of health, and the CDC, to formulate their plan. 

I learned tonight that adjacent districts are likely to do exactly the same, because there were massive countywide sports and academic events this past weekend, and there's no way that students from all the other schools were not exposed to the families that are symptomatic and have been diagnosed. So it's comforting to me that the first district to close has set an example that includes feeding the children.

Other state preps are not going quite as smoothly -- the call center was quickly found to be understaffed, for example. It became pretty much useless, and people are being told to contact their doctor again. But I find no reason to criticize the state and county response. They are doing what they can, and trying to pivot as quickly as information changes. They DO have a plan, and commitment. I feel that they deserve to have that selfless competence met with proper and honest leadership, and of course, the citizens deserve to have this pandemic managed as precisely and expertly as possible. We ain't gonna get it, but that's what we all deserve....

as we begin to see tremendous suffering and inevitable death as a result of negligence and mismanagement, I hope we will all do our best to stay calm, listen to local authorities and cooperate with their instruction, and be thankful for the tireless work on the part of people who are facing terror. "We" -- meaning the so-called healthy and young -- might not feel terrified, but the people working in hospitals right now, who are watching Italy, know they are facing a war zone as they won't have enough gear for personal protection or enough beds and medicines.

Those of us who manage not to get the infection at all, and the 80% of us who do get it but who will only have a mild version that might be manageable at home, should consider ourselves to be at war, too, at least as far as our attitudes about getting through this. No panicking, no hoarding, no selfishness. Toughen up. Do without. Care about others and try to contain symptoms, if sick, and at least do NOT break quarantine if it's assigned. If we're healthy, support our neighbors who have family members either under treatment or working in hospitals. Again, if we're well and low- risk, consider helping with child care. But at the least, don't become a totally unnecessary problem by indulging in selfishness (whether hoarding or breaking quarantine) if we have no symptoms. 

For the majority of our nation who are expected to somehow carry on in retail and food service and gig economy jobs, without proper healthcare, and without any kind of guarantee or safety net for staying home sick (or staying home with children when their school closes) -- while I'm saying what I think, I'll say that I think 100% of Americans should be just pummeling Washington to fast-track the bills that have been written, regarding paid leave and health care coverage. It's an emergency. Putting this on the backs of the poor is unacceptable and we should all commit to that belief. Not "just" for this moment, to cause some pressure about the bills, but in the voting booth.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Lang Syne Boardie

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I just realized I posted in the "overly worried" thread. I'm just going to assume that the gravity of the response is adjusting to the gravity of the situation for people.

"Overly" worried = panic. That's never helpful. But "OK, I get it now, what should I be doing?" would be a very reasonable upgrade in a time of pandemic.

 

[Pen]

Germany apparently urging people to stay home as much as possible 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-spahn/coronavirus-germany-promises-support-to-companies-urges-public-to-stay-home-idUSKBN20V0PK

 

[EmseB]

7 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

For the majority of our nation who are expected to somehow carry on in retail and food service and gig economy jobs, without proper healthcare, and without any kind of guarantee or safety net for staying home sick (or staying home with children when their school closes) -- while I'm saying what I think, I'll say that I think 100% of Americans should be just pummeling Washington to fast-track the bills that have been written, regarding paid leave and health care coverage. It's an emergency. Putting this on the backs of the poor is unacceptable and we should all commit to that belief. Not "just" for this moment, to cause some pressure about the bills, but in the voting booth.

This just reminded me, somewhat ironically, that my gig economy job that would have allowed me to work from home without risking contagion or loss of income during a quarantine was just recently outlawed by the state I live in and millions of others are in the same boat. Just realized that when I read your post, which most of the actionable things you were talking about I agree with btw.

[Ausmumof3]

 

“In #Italy we made a terrible mistake Everybody kept saying "It's just a flu" and now our intensive care units are collapsing. Our grandparents and parents, our friends, are dying Please, learn the lesson. Now!”

https://mobile.twitter.com/TumminelloFabio

[SKL]

I read last night (in a mainstream news source) that the coronavirus 19 is less easy to spread than the regular flu.  Anyone know if that is true or false?

[SKL]

If they close our schools, a lot of nurses will have to stay home with their kids.  Not sure how that's going to help.

[SKL]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Sorry @kand it was @SKL who said that — I thought I could use quote and get one in the other but it didn’t work. 

@SKL  since it is happening now for first time in your 53 years, as some major (and minor) universities are shifting to online, some major corporations asking employees not to travel, etc, do you think heads of Princeton, Uof Washington, Amazon, etc are all extremely stupid and hysterical? 

 

Like I said, I think it is great in general for universities to offer more online options, so that was probably already in the works and this was just a logical time to launch / accelerate / expand.

As for the rest of it - university policy is rarely my source of common sense. 

Postponing unnecessary travel to certain locations is logical for many reasons.  Yes, it will hurt some economic sectors, but it still makes sense to me.  That said, it is actually not a bad idea to travel to someplace where there is less risk, if such places exist.

[Ausmumof3]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

I read last night (in a mainstream news source) that the coronavirus 19 is less easy to spread than the regular flu.  Anyone know if that is true or false?

I’ve heard there’s less asymptomatic transmission.  But can spread via faeces, droplets and maybe aerosol.  I don’t know how that compares.

as far as surfaces go its 24 Hours for flu versus up to 9 days for coronaviruses (I don’t know if there’s studies for this specific one).

so it may be less contagious than flu but more deadly (and more contagious than SARS but less deadly).

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Seems more likely, but was not was the poster I was responding to was saying I don’t think.  She was saying there’s already financial support and it doesn’t work.  Anyway I reckon that’s all going to turn political.  
 

one news site said the “NBD” versus the let’s plan crowds were divided on political lines in US.  I kind of didn’t believe it but maybe it’s true.

It’s enormously true. Like, tremendously evident, particularly on FB in people who put up a ton of political posts to begin with. I have even seen a meme that suggests there is a “crisis in every election year” and it goes on the list their lining up, of Ebola, say, or the threat of the Y2K bug that never materialized. 

I have seen someone post, as though suspicious of a conspiracy, “Does anyone know first hand of someone having coronavirus?”

The Europe travel group I belong to on FB is almost unbearable at the moment with “factionizing” going on between those who are staunchly committed to their vacations and those who argue for rescheduling. It makes me “happy” in a way that Italy has taken drastic steps to stop travel because if people literally cannot enter, or they can go but can’t do anything but sit in a hotel room sipping espresso, those who would go in spite of the virus will be prevented. Saved from their own stupidity, perhaps. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I read last night (in a mainstream news source) that the coronavirus 19 is less easy to spread than the regular flu.  Anyone know if that is true or false?

https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html
 

this article has it as both more contagious and more deadly.  However because it’s so new info is being updated all the time and this is four days old.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I read last night (in a mainstream news source) that the coronavirus 19 is less easy to spread than the regular flu.  Anyone know if that is true or false?

I suppose it depends somewhat on what the person meant by "spread." The transmission rate (RO or "R naught") for this coronavirus is estimated to be about 2.2 (each infected person will on average infect 2.2 other people) while for influenza it's around 1.3. So that means this coronavirus is significantly more transmissible. But again--I suppose one could argue the semantics of what the speaker meant by "spread."

Source of above info

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

If they close our schools, a lot of nurses will have to stay home with their kids.  Not sure how that's going to help.

I did wonder how Italy handled it.  In China some kids are with grandparents anyway.  I guess if other jobs are work from home or don’t work then the partners of nurses are presumably available for childcare.

[SKL]

19 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I did wonder how Italy handled it.  In China some kids are with grandparents anyway.  I guess if other jobs are work from home or don’t work then the partners of nurses are presumably available for childcare.

Other than the single moms who are nurses ....

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Other than the single moms who are nurses ....

True.  I think both Italy and China are maybe slightly connected family wise.  There were certainly mistakes in China though like the kid who was found who’d been alone in the house with his dead grandpa for five days.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[SKL]

31 minutes ago, Quill said:

It’s enormously true. Like, tremendously evident, particularly on FB in people who put up a ton of political posts to begin with. I have even seen a meme that suggests there is a “crisis in every election year” and it goes on the list their lining up, of Ebola, say, or the threat of the Y2K bug that never materialized. 

I have seen someone post, as though suspicious of a conspiracy, “Does anyone know first hand of someone having coronavirus?”

The Europe travel group I belong to on FB is almost unbearable at the moment with “factionizing” going on between those who are staunchly committed to their vacations and those who argue for rescheduling. It makes me “happy” in a way that Italy has taken drastic steps to stop travel because if people literally cannot enter, or they can go but can’t do anything but sit in a hotel room sipping espresso, those who would go in spite of the virus will be prevented. Saved from their own stupidity, perhaps. 

 

Interesting.  In my group of adoptive moms (leans liberal) someone posted about whether there were travel concerns, and the vast majority of responses were along the lines of common sense / wait and see.  Only 1 response was negative on travel.

And FTR I happily canceled all of our near term vacation plans despite not being of a certain political stripe.  And despite the fact that the slowing of travel will hurt us personally since we just opened a rehabbed hotel last week.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SKL

[TechWife]

On 3/6/2020 at 2:10 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Agreed.  I do think both ‘sides’ assume the worst characterization of one another in this, unfortunately. 

To be honest, I think this is an odd way to think about it. There aren't "sides" to illness. As much as we like to tout our independence from one another and individuality in our culture, we live in community and illness knows no "sides."

 

[EmseB]

I am not sure this falls neatly on political lines. One of my most liberal friends is currently posting instastories from her spring break vacation in Paris. And it's my more right-ish friends who are preppers.

I personally don't watch hardly any cable news except maybe what's on in waiting rooms and such because all of it gives me a headache.

Edited March 10, 2020 by EmseB
Adding thoughts

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

I am not sure this falls neatly on political lines. One of my most liberal friends is currently posting instastories from her spring break vacation in Paris.

I agree. I have Canadian/NY (Syracuse area) adoptive mom friends who are incredibly sanguine and people further south, NE and in the PNW who are much more concerned. All lean left.

[Sneezyone]

7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I did wonder how Italy handled it.  In China some kids are with grandparents anyway.  I guess if other jobs are work from home or don’t work then the partners of nurses are presumably available for childcare.

I have 10-14 yo students who are home alone all day while the parents must work.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[hippiemamato3]

14 hours ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Yes, but if those kids’ parents & grandparents are dead...   🤷‍♀️

There’s a middle ground.  Will people, including children, be affected?  Yes.   That’s when neighbors have to help neighbors.  Aunts & uncles check in on nieces & nephews.  Teachers call their students families.   Church members call people who’ve visited the church or are members.  Cops stop and check in with rural families.  Etc, etc, etc.   But common sense should reign.  Plane travel for anything but work reasons? No.   Cruise vacations? No.  Etc. 

If  only this was a reality. There are so many people without support systems. This ideology would fail them. 

[Murphy101]

I’m a purple party kinda of gal. The Goldilocks space here in the middle is cozy and yet looking too far to the left or the right can make a person more than a little bit nervous for humanity.🧘‍♂️

 

[chiguirre]

5 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I meant sides as in those who are on the ‘remain calm and the severity is probably overstated because of denominator issues’ end of the spectrum vs the ‘it’s being downplayed and is significantly more alarming and dangerous as a public health crisis than most people seem to realize’ side.  Ends of the spectrum of responses in this discussion, was what I meant.

The thing is, both of these statements are true.

Most people will be in the lucky 80% who don't experience severe symptoms. They may even be asymptomatic carriers. That's what we're seeing in South Korea which has massive testing and a super low Case Fatality Rate of 0.7%.

But, if enough people get sick at the same time, hospitals will collapse with the 5% who need critical care. That's what we're seeing in Italy.

If we can take steps to slow the infection rate, we'll be able to treat more severely ill patients. If all the cases bunch up, a lot more people will die for lack of critical care.

[EmseB]

55 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

The thing is, both of these statements are true.

Most people will be in the lucky 80% who don't experience severe symptoms. They may even be asymptomatic carriers. That's what we're seeing in South Korea which has massive testing and a super low Case Fatality Rate of 0.7%.

But, if enough people get sick at the same time, hospitals will collapse with the 5% who need critical care. That's what we're seeing in Italy.

If we can take steps to slow the infection rate, we'll be able to treat more severely ill patients. If all the cases bunch up, a lot more people will die for lack of critical care.

I agree steps should be taken, but it is important to remember that Italy, as far as I understand, has many fewer ICU and critical care beds per capita than the US. The differences between Italy's situation and S. Korea does not come down to only testing or the rate of cases. I wouldn't want to be sick in an Italian hospital under the best of conditions, honestly.

Since the US is so diverse and spread out, a lot of this comes down to local/state resource management and local public health officials based on what is happening in any given community. That is scary since populations vary so widely, but it's also the reason we can't expect or even desire a uniform federal management of things (among other reasons). 

[Pen]

Tag at people who see travel as a way to support airline workers. 

I think that’s commendable. And yet still think travel puts people (not necessarily you the individual healthy traveler, but people in general) at greater risk from rapid international viral transmission—from where departure points to destinations, and back again.  So for people who think their Local Costco is a source of potential transmission, why further take that potential on to your destination? 

I would like to suggest that Perhaps another excellent option as a way to help, would be to put all the money that would otherwise be spent on travel (whether voluntarily cancelling, or if airline or ship or whatever means to be used ends up cancelling ) toward a crowd source or other charitable fund to help workers impacted by the pandemic. 

[TechWife]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

Tag at people who see travel as a way to support airline workers. 

I think that’s commendable. And yet still think travel puts people (not necessarily you the individual healthy traveler, but people in general) at greater risk from rapid international viral transmission—from where departure points to destinations, and back again.  So for people who think their Local Costco is a source of potential transmission, why further take that potential on to your destination? 

I would like to suggest that Perhaps another excellent option as a way to help, would be to put all the money that would otherwise be spent on travel (whether voluntarily cancelling, or if airline or ship or whatever means to be used ends up cancelling ) toward a crowd source or other charitable fund to help workers impacted by the pandemic. 

Yes, or donate that amount of money to a local charity that will be impacted trying to help people - food banks, clinics, etc..

[Corraleno]

38 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I agree steps should be taken, but it is important to remember that Italy, as far as I understand, has many fewer ICU and critical care beds per capita than the US. The differences between Italy's situation and S. Korea does not come down to only testing or the rate of cases. I wouldn't want to be sick in an Italian hospital under the best of conditions, honestly.

I agree — the situation in Italy in no way resembles what we are likely to see in the US. In South Korea, the death rate is 0.8%, which I believe is very close to the death rate in China outside of Wuhan. I think that is actually a much more accurate rate when there is aggressive testing and adequate medical care, and I think that's much closer to what we'd likely see in the US if we were actually testing. The apparent US policy of avoiding testing and contact tracing and just shutting everything down is so stupid and counter-productive.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Tag at people who see travel as a way to support airline workers. 

I think that’s commendable. And yet still think travel puts people (not necessarily you the individual healthy traveler, but people in general) at greater risk from rapid international viral transmission—from where departure points to destinations, and back again.  So for people who think their Local Costco is a source of potential transmission, why further take that potential on to your destination? 

I would like to suggest that Perhaps another excellent option as a way to help, would be to put all the money that would otherwise be spent on travel (whether voluntarily cancelling, or if airline or ship or whatever means to be used ends up cancelling ) toward a crowd source or other charitable fund to help workers impacted by the pandemic. 

I assume at least a large # of the workers are trained in emergency response, so they could be utilized in other ways should the need arise.  Of course they should be compensated.

[Matryoshka]

49 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I agree — the situation in Italy in no way resembles what we are likely to see in the US. In South Korea, the death rate is 0.8%, which I believe is very close to the death rate in China outside of Wuhan. I think that is actually a much more accurate rate when there is aggressive testing and adequate medical care, and I think that's much closer to what we'd likely see in the US if we were actually testing. The apparent US policy of avoiding testing and contact tracing and just shutting everything down is so stupid and counter-productive.

Yeah - but we're not.  And I'm not sure in the more rural parts of the country that access to critical care beds and doctors per capita is all that great here either.

We have been doing far, far, less to contain this than Italy.  We don't have universal healthcare (they do).  Why is there this feeling that it couldn't possibly be as bad as Italy here?  Why is everyone assuming that Italy's healthcare system is such crap compared to ours?  I just did a little Googling, for healthcare rankings by country.  Uh-oh. In the 2019 WHO rankings, Italy comes in number TWO in the world (okay, that surprised me too.).  The US is ranked 37.  It does appear that these rankings vary widely by year, so take that with a grain of salt, but Italy is not some medical backwater.

South Korea's response to this was swift and proactive, a vastly different response to ours.  Like 180-degrees different.  Can anyone give me an example of one country we know of who has bungled the response this much?  I can only think maybe some of the countries we haven't heard from at all (like India? - seems unlikely they'd have nothing by now...)  I feel like we're getting more transparency from flipping Iran, which is... worrisome.  I mean, HOW is it that the staff of that nursing home in WA have not been tested yet?  

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

Tag at people who see travel as a way to support airline workers. 

I think that’s commendable. And yet still think travel puts people (not necessarily you the individual healthy traveler, but people in general) at greater risk from rapid international viral transmission—from where departure points to destinations, and back again.  So for people who think their Local Costco is a source of potential transmission, why further take that potential on to your destination? 

I would like to suggest that Perhaps another excellent option as a way to help, would be to put all the money that would otherwise be spent on travel (whether voluntarily cancelling, or if airline or ship or whatever means to be used ends up cancelling ) toward a crowd source or other charitable fund to help workers impacted by the pandemic. 

Dr. Fauci said yesterday that while the elderly and those at higher risk may want to consider avoiding unnecessary air travel, there is no reason a healthy person can't fly. 

And obviously no one is traveling for the sole purpose of keeping airline personnel employed. 🙄 My kid has to stay at school over spring break due to mandatory varsity practice and he asked if I could visit this week, so I did. I am very concerned about all the workers, not just airline employees, who are going to be severely financially impacted by widespread shutdowns and closures and quarantines, much of which could have been avoided if the idiots in power had realized that aggressive testing and contact tracing and transparency is far more efficient, and leads to far less human and economic damage, than trying to hide the number of cases.

You posted in the other thread that you were not curtailing your son's social activities at all and had no plans to travel anyway, so insisting that no one else should travel has zero effect on you. I have no plans to play sports, or go to church, or eat in a restaurant, or even go to Costco at any time in the foreseeable future, so maybe I should suggest that everyone else stop doing those things as well. I could even go as far as suggesting that anyone who does those things clearly doesn't care about those who are elderly or at higher risk and think it's fine for them to die. /s

I could easily stay home for 2 weeks after I get back from visiting my son, so my total "hours of public exposure" will still be lower than 99.999% of the American public — including most of the people wagging their fingers about spending a few hours on an airplane. I always have at least 2-4 weeks worth of food in my house because I buy quinoa and rice and lentils and beans in bulk and I have a freezer full of frozen fruit and veg. My normal grocery shop is a quick stop at TJs for fresh fruit & veg once a week, so staying home for 2 weeks would mean skipping a single 20-minute exposure (or getting what I need from Whole Foods with same day delivery). If I choose to spend my "hours of public exposure" on visiting my kid instead of shopping or eating out or attending sports events or whatever everyone else is doing, that's my choice, and I am still putting far fewer people at risk than the vast majority of the American public.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Corraleno

[Pawz4me]

Regarding the situation in Italy and thinking it can't or won't happen here --

 

 

[Corraleno]

7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah - but we're not.  And I'm not sure in the more rural parts of the country that access to critical care beds and doctors per capita is all that great here either.

We have been doing far, far, less to contain this than Italy.  We don't have universal healthcare (they do).  Why is there this feeling that it couldn't possibly be as bad as Italy here?  Why is everyone assuming that Italy's healthcare system is such crap compared to ours?  I just did a little Googling, for healthcare rankings by country.  Uh-oh. In the 2019 WHO rankings, Italy comes in number TWO in the world (okay, that surprised me too.).  The US is ranked 37.  It does appear that these rankings vary widely by year, so take that with a grain of salt, but Italy is not some medical backwater.

South Korea's response to this was swift and proactive, a vastly different response to ours.  Like 180-degrees different.  Can anyone give me an example of one country we know of who has bungled the response this much?  I can only think maybe some of the countries we haven't heard from at all (like India? - seems unlikely they'd have nothing by now...)  I feel like we're getting more transparency from flipping Iran, which is... worrisome.  I mean, HOW is it that the staff of that nursing home in WA have not been tested yet?  

My point was that an accurate death rate for this virus should be drawn from areas where widespread testing is likely to have picked up most of the cases, versus countries where many, if not most, cases are never counted. The death rate in S Korea is 0.8%, in China outside Wuhan it's 0.7% (and falling) and outside of Hubei it's less than 0.2%. If you only test the people that are seriously ill, then of course the death rate looks much higher. In S Korea, which has been aggressive with testing, they reported that 99% of confirmed cases were mild.

Given how little we are testing in this country, I think the death rate in the US may end up looking like one of the highest in the world — but that doesn't mean COVID-19 would actually be killing a higher percentage of Americans than any other country, it just means we never tested most of the people who had it. I think there would be a lot less panic if people knew that the actual death rate was likely to be less than 1%. 

[Matryoshka]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

My point was that an accurate death rate for this virus should be drawn from areas where widespread testing is likely to have picked up most of the cases, versus countries where many, if not most, cases are never counted. The death rate in S Korea is 0.8%, in China outside Wuhan it's 0.7% (and falling) and outside of Hubei it's less than 0.2%. If you only test the people that are seriously ill, then of course the death rate looks much higher. In S Korea, which has been aggressive with testing, they reported that 99% of confirmed cases were mild.

Given how little we are testing in this country, I think the death rate in the US may end up looking like one of the highest in the world — but that doesn't mean COVID-19 would actually be killing a higher percentage of Americans than any other country, it just means we never tested most of the people who had it. I think there would be a lot less panic if people knew that the actual death rate was likely to be less than 1%. 

Isn't Italy testing widely? 

I totally agree with you about the death rate seeming worse if only the sickest are tested. What I'm worried about here is that by not testing, it will spread so fast that it will overwhelm our system,  and people that would/could have recovered will not due to lack of the intensive care so many seem to need once hospitalized. So that overwhelm could also raise the relative real death rate compared to countries who have taken a more aggressive approach.  That whole high curve / flat curve idea that's been posted, I think also in this thread...

Eta: yeah, the one Pawz4me just posted above. Also, more beds and docs per capita in Italy than US, wow.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Matryoshka