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mamakelly

Teaching an older child who has had minimal schooling?

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How would you go about teaching an older child (10), to read? There are no learning disabilities, just a lack of teaching on the part of the homeschooling parent. Child has not been exposed to any reading/teaching to read program. What about writing and math? Again, no LD just lack of instruction. I have some ideas, but I'm curious about how others might go about this. I would work with the child 1-2 times per week a few hours at a time. I know it's not ideal, but work with me here lol, what would you do?

Edited by mamakelly

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Reading Reflex was designed for older students, that might be a place to start.

I've heard of starting formal math with Saxon 5/4, which would be grade-by-age appropriate.

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I do not yet know what the child does know, however her knowledge is very very basic. I was considering Logic of English for reading instruction. 

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Whatever program you decide on, I would focus almost entirely on reading in the beginning. If you can read, you can self-teach a lot of math. If you read enough, you will learn the basics of how to write. I would triage under the assumption that your ability to help may be cut off at some point, and you want to be able to make the biggest impact possible. A solid reading foundation is your best bet.

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1 hour ago, beaners said:

 If you can read, you can self-teach a lot of math.

Agreeing with everything you said, but not this. 

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7 hours ago, mamakelly said:

How would you go about teaching an older child (10), to read? There are no learning disabilities, just a lack of teaching on the part of the homeschooling parent. Child has not been exposed to any reading/teaching to read program. What about writing and math? Again, no LD just lack of instruction. I have some ideas, but I'm curious about how others might go about this. I would work with the child 1-2 times per week a few hours at a time. I know it's not ideal, but work with me here lol, what would you do?

Spalding would be my go-to for reading/spelling/penmanship/etc. All that is necessary is the manual, a set of phonogram cards, and a sewn composition book. As long as there are no learning issues, and the child is willing, I would expect to see really excellent results in a few months.

I wouldn't even think about writing per se until the reading is there. Spalding would cover all the mechanics, including very basic writing (it can do more comprehensive writing, grammar, and literature, but I wouldn't plan on that right now).

Here's a very interesting article about an educational experiment (nor formal math until dc were 9yo) that was done with surprising results; and it includes a scope and sequence for teaching arithmetic skills. There might be something here that you can use.

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16 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Agreeing with everything you said, but not this. 

I was going from the point of view that you can read about how to do math, but you can't use math to learn how to read. Not that it is ideal or a kid should be expected to do things that way.

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8 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Here's a very interesting article about an educational experiment (nor formal math until dc were 9yo) that was done with surprising results; and it includes a scope and sequence for teaching arithmetic skills. There might be something here that you can use.

That's a lovely and thought-provoking experiment, but it involved the kids doing lots of hands-on math in the form of games and other activities. It's not clear whether this child had this level of exposure to mathematical ideas or not... that's why I was asking. 

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25 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That's a lovely and thought-provoking experiment, but it involved the kids doing lots of hands-on math in the form of games and other activities. It's not clear whether this child had this level of exposure to mathematical ideas or not... that's why I was asking. 

I know that's why you were asking. Did you read the other two parts?

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6 hours ago, Ellie said:

I know that's why you were asking. Did you read the other two parts?

Other parts of what? Sorry, not sure what you mean.

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I'd treat it as if I was teaching a person who did not know English.  Start with words in the environment and survival skills that he is interested in knowing and use them to teach words & phonics. If he has internet access, point him at starfall.

Edited by HeighHo

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Phonics Pathways can be used with most any age. It is one book-- and not too pricey.  And not too demeaning for an older learner. I would do copywork/dictation/spelling from this book as well (there are instructions in the back of the book on how to use it as a spelling program).

Elizabeth B's Phonics lessons might be useful as well.  http://thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/phonicslsnslinks.html

This thread may have some food for thought about teaching math (it applies to an older child, but some of it may help)

 

Edited by Zoo Keeper
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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

Other parts of what? Sorry, not sure what you mean.

The article actually has three parts. Part I opens at the link. Parts II and III are at the very bottom. Here's Part II. It gives an actual plan on how to teach arithmetic, which I thought might be helpful with the child you're working with. It doesn't include "games and other activities."

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As another poster said, if the child truly cannot read, I would start with reading.  I don't think it actually takes a lot of formal instruction to learn basic elementary arithmetic, and that sort of stuff can be incorporated as needed with games at the beginning and ending of each lesson.  But reading is really the foundation of everything and learning the mechanics of it is the most basic step.  So if the child really cannot read, I would hook up with Elizabeth B and work her stuff.  

If the child can *read* but not at grade level and/or struggles with comprehension, I would go with a reading/writing combo.  Basically....read X, write Y about it.  You can work on writing mechanics, plus discuss the reading to work on the comprehension.  You can focus the writing assignment towards what has been read.  

At both levels, I would focus on reading for both tutoring sessions.  At the first level, I would do all reading, with a beginning and ending math based game.  At the second, I would probably consider doing like 1/2 or 3/4 reading, with math at the end.  

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2 hours ago, Ellie said:

The article actually has three parts. Part I opens at the link. Parts II and III are at the very bottom. Here's Part II. It gives an actual plan on how to teach arithmetic, which I thought might be helpful with the child you're working with. It doesn't include "games and other activities."

I’ll take a look when I’m home. It doesn’t build on their earlier activities?

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42 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It doesn’t build on their earlier activities?

No. It assumes you're starting with a 6yo child who knows nothing. I think you could use some of the ideas to figure out what this child knows, and how you might be able to help him catch up/fill in the blanks so he can begin working at age level.

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I did not read until I was 12, but I was in a print based environment for the previous 6 years.  It took me 3 months of solid personal effort many hours a day once I had the basics down. Without any learning disabilities, assume the best but prepare for the worst. 

 

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5 hours ago, Ellie said:

No. It assumes you're starting with a 6yo child who knows nothing. I think you could use some of the ideas to figure out what this child knows, and how you might be able to help him catch up/fill in the blanks so he can begin working at age level.

I looked through the links. It does start with a 6 year old who doesn't know anything, but then it runs them through reasoning practice. He has the kids do lots of numerical work, just no formal arithmetic. I'd be curious how much of this work has been done with this child. Can they tell time? Can they fluently use money? How far can they count? 

For what it's worth, Benezet's report strikes me as completely believable. I've seen the reasoning issues he reports in a vast majority of the college students I've taught. I don't know if I agree that you absolutely have to put off formal arithmetic (I didn't take that tack with my daughter), but I make sure that every symbol we work with stands for something. It's had excellent results so far. 

So I agree with you, really :-). I just wonder how well this is going to apply to this student. 

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This is all really good food for thought. . Hopefully I'll be able to meet with the child in the next few days and try and assess what they do know. I hate to do an actual assessment, but I may see if I can find something to keep track of what needs to be worked on. 

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1 minute ago, mamakelly said:

This is all really good food for thought. . Hopefully I'll be able to meet with the child in the next few days and try and assess what they do know. I hate to do an actual assessment, but I may see if I can find something to keep track of what needs to be worked on. 

Want some "assessment" games?? I do a bunch of those in my homeschool math classes in real life. They are VERY helpful. And the kids like them. 

Edited by square_25

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Want some "assessment" games?? I do a bunch of those in my homeschool math classes in real life. They are VERY helpful. And the kids like them. 

Yes please!! That's exactly what I was hoping to find. 

 

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24 minutes ago, mamakelly said:

Yes please!! That's exactly what I was hoping to find. 

 

I like playing VERY hands-on games with the kids, because I really want to check their mathematical sense and not just the ability to shuffle symbols on the page! Let me start the list, and you tell me how they sound, and I'll keep going if you like them. 

First game: Addition War: have you played War before? It's very similar. You play against a kid and put down two cards at the same time as they put down two cards. The winner is the person with the highest total sum. (And if there's a tie, you have a war! Want me to explain that?) The winner takes all the cards and puts them at the bottom of their deck. Rinse and repeat until someone has all the cards! 

This lets you check a couple of things. First of all, you can see how many sums to 20 a kid remembers. Secondly, you can see how many strategies they can use. Are they using counting on? Near doubles? Counting up from 1? 

 

Edited by square_25
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4 hours ago, square_25 said:

I looked through the links. It does start with a 6 year old who doesn't know anything, but then it runs them through reasoning practice. He has the kids do lots of numerical work, just no formal arithmetic. I'd be curious how much of this work has been done with this child. Can they tell time? Can they fluently use money? How far can they count? 

For what it's worth, Benezet's report strikes me as completely believable. I've seen the reasoning issues he reports in a vast majority of the college students I've taught. I don't know if I agree that you absolutely have to put off formal arithmetic (I didn't take that tack with my daughter), but I make sure that every symbol we work with stands for something. It's had excellent results so far. 

So I agree with you, really :-). I just wonder how well this is going to apply to this student. 

Part II doesn't talk about a 6yo child. Here's an excerpt:

In the fall of 1933 I felt that I was now ready to make the big plunge. I knew that I could defend my position by evidence that would satisfy any reasonable person. Accordingly, a committee of our principals drew up a new course of study in arithmetic. I would have liked to go the whole route and drop out all the arithmetic until we reached the seventh grade, for we had proved, in the case of four rooms, that this could be done without loss, but the principals were more cautious than I was and I realized, too, that I would now have to deal with the deeply rooted prejudices of the educated portion of our citizens. Therefore, a compromise was reached. Accordingly, on September 1, 1933, we handed out the following course of study in arithmetic:

 

  • Grade I - There is no formal instruction in arithmetic. In connection with the use of readers, and as the need for it arises, the children are taught to recognize and read numbers up to 100. This instruction is not concentrated into any particular period or time but comes in incidentally in connection with assignments of the reading lesson or with reference to certain pages of the text.

    Meanwhile, the children are given a basic idea of comparison and estimate thru [sic] the understanding of such contrasting words as: more, less; many. few; higher, lower; taller, shorter; earlier, later; narrower, wider; smaller, larger; etc.

    As soon as it is practicable the children are taught to keep count of the date upon the calendar. Holidays and birthdays, both of members of the class and their friends and relatives, are noted.

     

  • Grade II - There is no formal instruction in arithmetic.

    The use of comparatives as taught in the first grade is continued.

    The beginning is made in the telling of time. Children are taught to recognize the hours and half hours.

    The recognition of page numbers is continued. The children are taught to recognize any numbers that they naturally encounter in the books used in the second grade. If any book used in this grade contains an index, the children are taught what it means and how to find the pages referred to. Children will naturally pick up counting in the course of games which they play. They will also easily and without formal instruction learn the meaning of "half," "double," "twice," or "three times." The teacher will not devote any formal instruction to the meaning of these terms if the children do not pick them up naturally and incidentally.

    To the knowledge of the day of the month already acquired is added that of the name of the days of the week and of the months of the year.

    The teacher learns whether the children come in contact with the use of money at all in their life outside the school. If so, the meaning of "penny," "nickel," "dime," and "dollar" is taught. In similar fashion, and just incidentally, the meaning and relation of "pint" and "quart" may be taught.

It continues through grade 8.

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4 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Part II doesn't talk about a 6yo child. Here's an excerpt:

In the fall of 1933 I felt that I was now ready to make the big plunge. I knew that I could defend my position by evidence that would satisfy any reasonable person. Accordingly, a committee of our principals drew up a new course of study in arithmetic. I would have liked to go the whole route and drop out all the arithmetic until we reached the seventh grade, for we had proved, in the case of four rooms, that this could be done without loss, but the principals were more cautious than I was and I realized, too, that I would now have to deal with the deeply rooted prejudices of the educated portion of our citizens. Therefore, a compromise was reached. Accordingly, on September 1, 1933, we handed out the following course of study in arithmetic:

 

  • Grade I - There is no formal instruction in arithmetic. In connection with the use of readers, and as the need for it arises, the children are taught to recognize and read numbers up to 100. This instruction is not concentrated into any particular period or time but comes in incidentally in connection with assignments of the reading lesson or with reference to certain pages of the text.

    Meanwhile, the children are given a basic idea of comparison and estimate thru [sic] the understanding of such contrasting words as: more, less; many. few; higher, lower; taller, shorter; earlier, later; narrower, wider; smaller, larger; etc.

    As soon as it is practicable the children are taught to keep count of the date upon the calendar. Holidays and birthdays, both of members of the class and their friends and relatives, are noted.

     

  • Grade II - There is no formal instruction in arithmetic.

    The use of comparatives as taught in the first grade is continued.

    The beginning is made in the telling of time. Children are taught to recognize the hours and half hours.

    The recognition of page numbers is continued. The children are taught to recognize any numbers that they naturally encounter in the books used in the second grade. If any book used in this grade contains an index, the children are taught what it means and how to find the pages referred to. Children will naturally pick up counting in the course of games which they play. They will also easily and without formal instruction learn the meaning of "half," "double," "twice," or "three times." The teacher will not devote any formal instruction to the meaning of these terms if the children do not pick them up naturally and incidentally.

    To the knowledge of the day of the month already acquired is added that of the name of the days of the week and of the months of the year.

    The teacher learns whether the children come in contact with the use of money at all in their life outside the school. If so, the meaning of "penny," "nickel," "dime," and "dollar" is taught. In similar fashion, and just incidentally, the meaning and relation of "pint" and "quart" may be taught.

It continues through grade 8.

I’m not sure where we’re miscommunicating here. I saw the whole thing. The formal work seemed built on the earlier informal work. Or were you suggesting starting with the informal work with an older child? I may just be misunderstanding.

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A lot of kids will learn number recognition and number sense in daily life. Especially if a child gets to watch any kind of educational tv and even more especially if they have an environment that uses numbers. 
 

Same for letter recognition and basic phonics. Explode the Code has some basic placement tests that test for phonemic awareness etc.  

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11 hours ago, square_25 said:

I’m not sure where we’re miscommunicating here. I saw the whole thing. The formal work seemed built on the earlier informal work. Or were you suggesting starting with the informal work with an older child? I may just be misunderstanding.

In Part II, he has a scope and sequence for no formal arithmetic before 9; that's what I copied and pasted (not the whole thing, of course, because that's in the article). I was suggesting that the scope and sequence the school board came up with might give you a guideline on how to figure out what this child knows and doesn't know, and how to build on that knowledge to the point where the child can do formal work.

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Just now, Ellie said:

In Part II, he has a scope and sequence for no formal arithmetic before 9; that's what I copied and pasted (not the whole thing, of course, because that's in the article). I was suggesting that the scope and sequence the school board came up with might give you a guideline on how to figure out what this child knows and doesn't know, and how to build on that knowledge to the point where the child can do formal work.

Oooooh, I understand now! I apologize! Yes, that sounds like a great idea. 

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The Addition Facts that Stick/Subtraction Facts That Stick sold here on Well Trained Mind are actually meant to be used to help older students.   It involves short visual lessons followed by a week of printable math games to play that work well for that age.   But  practicing with the games works better if you do it every day.   If the parents are willing to do that with him at home, it would work.   If not, it could work but would just take longer.  I've used these when tutoring but it's harder when you're not there every day.

So, I don't have a suggestion for reading that that age, but when he's seems to start picking up reading and  can write letters  I'd try All About Spelling.   It's a very non-babyish spelling program, plus just a good program in general.  With this, again if the parents are cooperative, you could do the lessons with him during your session and then send home cards or copies of cards for them to practice with at home.

For handwriting, if you find he knows some but needs work, I suggest Print Path Raise the Roof (you can find it on Teachers Pay Teachers).   It's designed to use with kids who are going from 3 lined paper  to regular school lined paper, but also works on catching and dealing with any problems that have developed.   I used selections from it with my 13 year old to help him with writing problems that had crept up when he was at school.  It's good if you are only filling in gaps or correcting errors.  (Their whole program is similar to handwriting without tears in letter formations and such). 

 

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On 2/26/2020 at 4:52 PM, maize said:

Reading Reflex was designed for older students, that might be a place to start.

I've heard of starting formal math with Saxon 5/4, which would be grade-by-age appropriate.

 

I forgot about Reading Reflex!! It's really good.

OP, I did this once with a 9 year old. I used OPGTR and she zipped right through. It went great. Math was bumpier but ultimately she did well there too. I used Strayer Upton and McGuffey...so we could do a lot out loud together. She really needed me to sit with her and talk the whole time. 

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4 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

I forgot about Reading Reflex!! It's really good.

OP, I did this once with a 9 year old. I used OPGTR and she zipped right through. It went great. Math was bumpier but ultimately she did well there too. I used Strayer Upton and McGuffey...so we could do a lot out loud together. She really needed me to sit with her and talk the whole time. 

 

This time it really is random curiosity ;-). How old is this child now? What's she doing? 

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7 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

This time it really is random curiosity ;-). How old is this child now? What's she doing? 

 

She's 15. She does ballet 🙂 

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Abecedarian is not silly or young, and it is VERY easy to accelerate it, much more so than most phonics programs. You could do a lesson a day instead of a lesson a week with a 10 year old and get through several grade levels - and they have "short" versions of their levels specifically for kids who have some basics, don't need as much handwriting, etc. 

I might do CTC math, which lets you access any level at once and will judge what they need to learn and self adjust. Or khan. 

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On 2/27/2020 at 4:52 PM, square_25 said:

I like playing VERY hands-on games with the kids, because I really want to check their mathematical sense and not just the ability to shuffle symbols on the page! Let me start the list, and you tell me how they sound, and I'll keep going if you like them. 

First game: Addition War: have you played War before? It's very similar. You play against a kid and put down two cards at the same time as they put down two cards. The winner is the person with the highest total sum. (And if there's a tie, you have a war! Want me to explain that?) The winner takes all the cards and puts them at the bottom of their deck. Rinse and repeat until someone has all the cards! 

This lets you check a couple of things. First of all, you can see how many sums to 20 a kid remembers. Secondly, you can see how many strategies they can use. Are they using counting on? Near doubles? Counting up from 1? 

 

This sounds great. Any more you could share would be helpful.

Update- I did a reading assessment, she is at a mid-3rd grade level which is far better than I was lead to believe. Writing skills are poor, no actual ability to form letters. Starting with HWT's slate to remediate that. Will be doing a k-3 math assessment next time. I was told she still counts on her fingers, so I'm guessing, back to basics for math as well.

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23 minutes ago, mamakelly said:

This sounds great. Any more you could share would be helpful.

Update- I did a reading assessment, she is at a mid-3rd grade level which is far better than I was lead to believe. Writing skills are poor, no actual ability to form letters. Starting with HWT's slate to remediate that. Will be doing a k-3 math assessment next time. I was told she still counts on her fingers, so I'm guessing, back to basics for math as well.

Mid-3rd grade sounds MUCH better than what you were told -- yay! You really do need reading if you're going to learn anything else. 

If she's still counting on fingers, I don't know if you'll get much past Addition War :-(. The other thing you could check is understanding of place value. For my class, I bought a whole bunch of different colored poker chips (they are pretty cheap on Amazon), and used greens as 10s and blues as 1s. You can then use these for just about anything. A good place value game is Don't Break The Bank: you roll a die 7 times, and each time, you look at the number showing, then you pick that many green chips or that many blue chips. (So for example, if you rolled a 3, you'd take 3 greens or 3 blues.) Your goal is to get as close as possible to 100 without going OVER 100. To figure out your total, it's much easier to use place value than to count, so I would see if she knows that, say, 7 greens and 6 blues is 76 without counting. Of course, you'll also want to see if she has any strategies at all for figuring out what it is! 

The other thing I've done with the poker chips in my class is play blackjack with the kids, with the poker chips used for the "betting." (Since it's basically just keeping score and doesn't involve money, it's not really betting, I think.) I play with a deck without face cards, although you could just play with the normal deck with face cards worth 10 (that's how it usually is -- I just replace those with actual 10s), and the game is simplified. I give the kids a certain number of blue and green poker chips to start with -- say, I might start them all with 5 green and 5 blues, which means they have an amount equivalent to 55 blues.  Before you get your cards, you place your "bet" -- I usually restrict the possible range of bets (often I say it has to be between 0 and 10), although you don't have to. After the bet is placed, each player gets 2 cards and so does the dealer, but one of the dealer's cards is face down. Your goal is to beat the dealer without going over 21 -- going over 21 is called going bust. If you say "hit", you get another card, if you say "stand" you don't get anymore. After everyone else has played, the dealer shows the face down card and plays his hand, where the rule is that the dealer hits if they have 17 or less and stands otherwise. If you get more than the dealer without going bust (going over 21), you get your bet back, as well as the same amount on top of it. If you bust or are beaten by the dealer, you lose your bet (it goes into the dealer's stash.) If you tie with the dealer, you get your bet back, but you don't get anything extra. 

I find this really excellent for both working on addition and on place value, because as the kids win and lose poker chips, they have to trade green 10s for blue 1s, and I also encourage them to trade in blue 1s for green 10s if they wind up with too many blue 1s. And of course, they have to add to figure out the total in their hand! 

The poker chips were inspired by this article, by the way: 

http://www.garlikov.com/PlaceValue.html

Please let me know if any of the suggestions are helpful and how things go!! I've had to do a certain amount of concept remediation in my classes, even though the kids are largely not unschooled, so I do have a bit of experience :-). 

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Print Path is very similar to Handwriting Without Tears, but with regular 3 lined paper not 2 lined. It was also done by an OT, and is on Teachers Pay Teachers. We LOVE it. My son couldn't form ANY letters at the beginning of this year, despite doing handwriting all last year. We started Print Path and it was miraculous. 

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