On the importance of LEAVING THINGS ALONE (a rant)

[Gil]

A relative of mine has began to homeschool her 4 kids and asks me my advice constantly.  She has a K, 2nd, 4th and 6th grade student.
The K and 2nd can't read, the 6th grade student is very behind in mathematics, the 4th grader is mostly on grade level, but coming from a bad public school that's not saying much.

I have told her "Simple > Complicated";
I have given her a copy of my Homeschool Commandments.
I have given her my opinion on some curriculum and I keep telling her the same thing over and over again--do little and do it often. Do a max of 3hours of focused academics every day--(even weekends)--and just wait. Give the kids a chance. Give yourself a chance. Give homeschooling a chance and in the meantime stay off of homeschool related YouTube, Pinterest, Instagram, forums, Facebook, blogs and every search-result link that is in anyway related to homeschooling.

At her request, I have gone over to her place 3 times in the last 12 days to "show her what it looks like" or "demonstrate what I"m talking about."
Each time it's setting the kids up with ZERO distractions, coaching them through their work, actively teaching and drilling the K and 2, supervising the 4th and 6th do their reading, checking everyones math and then turning them loose. It takes 3.5 hours from beginning to end and she always talks about how it's easy to do it if she just does it. But then less than 2 days later she's bugging me about all the stuff that's NOT built into the routine.
What about XYZ? ABC? GHI? and JKL?

She keeps asking for my advice, direction or input but won't listen to any 2 words that I say. It is making me nuts. She wants to change what she's doing every 1.48 days. She's a stay at home mom right now so she has nothing to do but drive she and myself NUTS with her nuttery about home school. I want to gently and kindly try to convince her that it's important to LEAVE things ALONE and just friggin WAIT for at least 60 days.

How? What do you say to a relative who is asking lots of (stupid or annoying) questions--repeatedly--but not able to "hear" your response. I know that she's not doing it on purpose. I actually like this relative, and The Boys are excited that the kids are being homeschooled now too. I agree with her reasons for taking them out of school, I know that she want's what is best for her kids and that she's willing to do it. But how do I help her understand that sometimes it's more important to NOT DO things if there isn't a compelling reason to do them?

In the course of me writing this, she's texted me twice three times about different ideas to complicate her day and adding some task she could to the agenda to burden herself and/or her kids with and some idea for something from somewhere that's a TERRIBLE idea to add or substitute.

She's annoying me to the brink of death, but won't even leave me to die in peace.

 

 

 

[Ellie]

Bless her heart.

And bless your heart. 🙂

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ask her to repeat to you what you've told her? 

[klmama]

She obviously respects your opinion, or she wouldn't keep asking.  Why do you think she's not listening to your answers?  Does she have untreated ADHD? 

Perhaps you should tell her one more time what you think, then say, "Relative, dear, I have explained to you how I would do it, and I have shown you.  You know now what I think.  But I am not you.  My kids are not your kids.  We don't have to homeschool exactly the same way.  If you want to do it differently, go ahead.  We will still love you, no matter how you choose to homeschool.  You don't have to run everything past me."  And stop speaking to her about it.  If she wants to pursue other things that will make her days crazy, that's absolutely her choice.  She is going to have to figure out some things for herself.

 

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Gil said:

What do you say to a relative who is asking lots of (stupid or annoying) questions--repeatedly--but not able to "hear" your response. I know that she's not doing it on purpose. I actually like this relative, and The Boys are excited that the kids are being homeschooled now too. I agree with her reasons for taking them out of school, I know that she want's what is best for her kids and that she's willing to do it. But how do I help her understand that sometimes it's more important to NOT DO things if there isn't a compelling reason to do them?

 

"Relative, you seem really anxious about this process. How are you feeling/doing? What are your worries?" And then I'd sit back and listen.  If I had to bet, I'd say what was driving this is fear, which she'll have to work through in her own time.  How long has she been homeschooling? A few weeks?  

Edited to add: Rather than discouraging her from reading other blogs and fb, maybe what she needs to to read All The Things about homeschooling, so she's not burning you out on the topic. I know when I first started homeschooling, I had LOTS of opinions and stupid ideas, lol. Lots of fear, too. I talked about homeschooling way too much. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by MissLemon

[El...]

"Oh, relative,  I couldn't respond to your text(s) until today because we've been very busy here. I'm glad to hear you're working on your plan! How goes the reading drill?" Ignoring all extraneous questions. Being too busy to hold hands. 

[CAJinBE]

She might be in the phase where she is afraid that she is ruining her kids lives forever by taking them out of school. Maybe she is a perfectionist. Just try to listen. She will eventually find her own way.

[Ausmumof3]

Ugh isn’t that all of us the first 2 years of homeschooling.  Or maybe 10!  Just don’t answer texts/calls when you don’t feel up to dealing with it.

[8filltheheart]

Write down a detailed schedule for her to follow and insert explicit....after this they have free time to do x,y,z. Repeat tomorrow and leave the rest of today alone. ???

No real idea. I would tell her you are only available for 1 hr between x-y and she can text you during that time and you'll respond but the constant interruptions are impacting your ability to be with your boys.

[purpleowl]

You're not her, and she's not you. Your kids and her kids are not the same. You will not do things the same way. I think a lot of times new homeschoolers have in their minds that there is A Right Way or A Best Way to do things, and it's just not true. Instead of helping her imitate you, which is obviously not working for her, try to help her figure out what will work for her. You might even start with the way you would do things and ask her what's one aspect that she would change to make it feel more "her." And when she asks, "What about ABC, XYZ, etc.," you can say, "I wouldn't choose to do that, but it might work for you. What about that is making you think it would be a good idea?" 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Gil said:

In the course of me writing this, she's texted me twice three times about different ideas to complicate her day and adding some task she could to the agenda to burden herself and/or her kids with and some idea for something from somewhere that's a TERRIBLE idea to add or substitute.

Fwiw, I would treat her like any learner and cut her free and ALLOW HER TO MAKE HER MISTAKES. 

She hasn't learned yet, because she has to learn the same way we all have, the hard way.  So I would move yourself to mentoring mode and reply wow, it sounds like you have a plan here, tell me how it goes! No more replying, no more showing her what to do. You cannot smooth her way. She HAS to try these things for herself and figure it out. She has to grow her own wings of confidence.

PS. You can change how her texting number rings, so it *doesn't* hehe. That way, you don't get notified and don't see her posts till later. I would just slow walk it, give her some time to try her ideas and fail/succeed and work it out. And then you'll be able to say honestly that you didn't see her text, because you won't be seeing them till later, haha.

Edited February 21, 2020 by PeterPan

[Another Lynn]

I agree with others, that most of us have to learn the hard way that all these worries are not what we should be paying attention to.  On the other hand, is there a story that illustrates this idea that might help her understand?  An aesop, a fairy tale, or something else, a parable of sorts to help her understand the idea that when we want to help too much, when we make decisions out of fear, we sometimes hasten the very thing we were so afraid of.  

[Miss Tick]

Maybe she needs her own hobby to occupy her hands and mind. Knitting? Sudoku? Candy Crush?

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, SusanC said:

Knitting?

Would help with that anxiety too, lol. 

If she's never been home, she may be feeling squirrelly and need somewhere to put her brain energy. It's one of the things people figure out, that even teaching their kids is not going to use up all their mental power and leave them satisfied/done. You still have to have a life, pursue some hobbies, etc. If she has been working a job, she's used to structure, validation, and more go go. Trying to do too much can be a clear sign you're BORED and have too much time/mental energy reserves on your hands. She needs to get her brain busy enough that she doesn't have time to pour more than necessary into homeschooling. A hobby, a class, exercising, something for herself. 

And you know, there are polite ways to help her sort through that. You could say "Do you think it's that they NEED more, or are you BORED and needing to take up a hobby or something to use up this mental energy?" And she can reflect and sort that out. She may not have given herself permission yet to take care of herself. You can ask her what she's doing for herself and encourage her to prioritize that before adding more for the kids.

Edited February 21, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 21, 2020 by PeterPan

[annegables]

6 hours ago, CAJinBE said:

She might be in the phase where she is afraid that she is ruining her kids lives forever by taking them out of school. Maybe she is a perfectionist. Just try to listen. She will eventually find her own way.

Have her kids been in the public school up until now? Because if what @CAJinBE said applies, then it sounds like the local school has already not done its job, so she does not need to worry about ruining her kids. 

What can be so hard is knowing and believing that education is a marathon, not a sprint. I had to remediate reading in my son after I pulled him out at the end of first grade. It took 2 long years to undo the damage done (thanks for nothing, whole language!) and I had to have the long view in mind when spending 20min a day on phonics. I had to take to heart your advice: 

9 hours ago, Gil said:

I have given her my opinion on some curriculum and I keep telling her the same thing over and over again--do little and do it often. Do a max of 3hours of focused academics every day--(even weekends)--and just wait. Give the kids a chance. Give yourself a chance. Give homeschooling a chance and in the meantime stay off of homeschool related YouTube, Pinterest, Instagram, forums, Facebook, blogs and every search-result link that is in anyway related to homeschooling.

Same goes with math. If the child doesn't have LDs, then it is doable to get him up to speed with a year or two. 

I remember that weight of responsibility I felt after I pulled my oldest out halfway through 2nd grade. This decision is not for the faint-of-heart and it sounds like she is fully experiencing that. The super annoying part is asking for loads of help but not taking it. 

[annegables]

9 hours ago, Gil said:

I have given her a copy of my Homeschool Commandments.

Care to share here? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Janeway]

When she calls, avoid answering. Then call her back later (hopefully when she does not answer) and leave a message saying you saw she called and wanted to call back, but don't have time right now, very busy, cannot answer phone during school day-teaching kids and all. The less available you are, the more she will have to make things work on her own. She is using you as a sounding board, not for real answers. She wants someone to bounce her thoughts off of. I get it, I have been there so many times. But it would likely help her more now to get a good nudge from the nest.

[EKS]

I've known homeschoolers like this.  They drive themselves crazy with activities and then wonder why their kids are behind academically.  They always act so amazed at my homeschooling ability and the education my kids have gotten, but the secret is only to place academics as the first priority, not as something you fit in around everything else.  

That said, I'm pretty sure the people I know who are really hardcore this way also have untreated ADHD.  It messes with their time management abilities in a big way.  I wouldn't jump to the ADHD conclusion with your relative just yet though as she may just be excited about her new found "freedom."  It can take a while to realize that homeschooling has its constraints too.

I don't think there is anything you can do other than only answer her queries maybe once per day or week or whatever works for you.  

[domestic_engineer]

How about suggesting she keeps a journal / notes in these first days/weeks/months?  It'll be a place for her to process and keep details.  Homeschooling 4 kids means there's a lot of details flying through a parent's head, especially if she wants to customize each child's education.  You can even say that some more experienced moms (this one!)  get overwhelmed by all the details to keep track of for homeschooling, let alone life.  She can free up some brain capacity by using the notebook as a "parking lot", of sorts.  And this more experienced homeschool mom (feel free to blame it on us) would liken it to feeding your baby at the middle of the night --- a parent comes up with some grand, interesting plans during those feedings in the wee hours of the morning, but experience tells you to hold off on acting on any of those ahem wacky plans made in the middle of the night until you've had some time to process and reevaluate those plans during normal waking hours.

I would guess that she's just lacking confidence and afraid of making a mistake.  AND she has *you* to compare herself to; I'm even intimidated to compare myself to you!  You seem to have it all together and your kids are obviously thriving.  She probably just needs some encouragement to keep trying and taking one step at a time and she'll eventually find the groove that works for *her* family.  And hey - a journal would be a great way to look back in a year to see how she's grown!

Edited to add:  have you pointed out that her Time and Energy are also valuable commodities?  So before she commits to spending those assets, she needs to know what she's gaining from that expense? For example, paying for grocery delivery may sometimes be a better use of her time. (It doesn't sound like this idea would resonate with her, but it might be a different angle to take.)

Edited February 21, 2020 by domestic_engineer

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

I wouldn't jump to the ADHD conclusion with your relative just yet though as she may just be excited about her new found "freedom." 

Haha, since op said the kids needed limited distractions to function, I figured it was kind of obvious there was an apple and tree thing going on. 

[Lori D.]

((hugs)) if this is a JAWM rant. 😉

Perhaps she needs to have an outlet for her excitement? Maybe encourage her to STICK TO THE 3.5 hour schedule in the morning, but once she has completed the "daily dailies", she gets to research and plan ONE extra to do in the afternoon, on several days a week. And that could be anything she wants to add for fun and to be fulfilling for her, and great supplement for the kids:
- field trip
- fun family read aloud
- a project -- arts and crafts, handcrafts, history, art, etc.
- science exploration/hands-on
- educational video
- etc.

The key is that she doesn't get to have this "dessert" each day until the "main meal" has been completed. 😉 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Lori D.

[73349]

Some people are tweakers and second-guessers. Is this somebody who also keeps rearranging her furniture? Switching her diet?

I'd be annoyed with her, too, and probably ask her not to ask me about something again until she's tried it for forty school days. That's a decent length of time to see if something works or not, and then she can reflect on how it's going for her. If she brings it up again, ask how many days into it she is. Under 40? Well, keep going, dear, and let's talk when you get to 40.

Edited February 22, 2020 by whitehawk

[domestic_engineer]

maybe you should just plan a multi-day field trip for you and the kids to a place without cell service. 😄

[lewelma]

I have a friend like this. I kept telling her that her expectations were too high and that she was going to burn out. She lasted 2 years. Her kids are now back in school, and she told me yesterday that I was right. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You can show her how to teach, or at least give her a very good starting place. You've DONE that. 

You can't cure her anxiety, which is what this is. I kind of agree with the previous poster who said to stop telling her NOT to read all the homeschool social media -- I know it's counter-productive to her homeschool, and God help her kids as she works through this, but she's trying to get to the other side of a paradigm shift. She's trying to see herself as a homeschooling parent. Better the social media immersion than ringing your phone off the hook!

And about that, I also agree with @8FillTheHeart that you should tell her you've done all the "Intro to Hs'ing" that you can do for right now, and you have to teach your kids, so you'll only be available for questions and convos for specific (limited) times. Try to get her to hook up with local homeschool groups and resources, if that's possible. Try to get the family time back to kids playing and parents supporting each other, because this new definition of your relationship with her isn't really working out. You'll all benefit from family time together, but it needs to be that, and not a constant homeschool seminar.

*Thank you* for helping her. A lot of these newbies who are hs'ing as a last resort after a bad ps experience are very shell shocked and anxious. They do need somebody to help them get started.

But I've seen this panicked codependency for myself, and I've heard of it from others. It doesn't work. Unless we're going to teach their kids, we have to get some detachment and they'll have to find their feet. Not totally alone, but not texting us three times per hour, either.

 

 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, whitehawk said:

Is this somebody who also keep rearranging her furniture?

Hey! LOL I love rearranging furniture, lol. I was doing it last night in fact. I pull the furniture out to run the Roomba and then it's like hey, could we put this back a different way? And turns out ds is really good at visualizing it, so he was telling me where to put things.

[Gil]

Thanks everyone. I've decided to combine advice from @8FillTheHeart, @purpleowl, @PeterPan, @SusanC, @domestic_engineer, @whitehawk and @Lang Syne Boardie (hopefully I didn't miss anyone).

I can't cure her anxiety. She has to work through this on her own, so I write her a schedule to follow for 42 days that explicitly states the school day is done after essential tasks A, B and C are completed, however, if they're finishing early, too easily or growing bored, then try one thing--just one--after C for a few days and see how it goes. I'll strongly encourage that she journal and document the process because it's invaluable to have your data that's relevant to your family-culture and your kids. For the duration of this trial, I will take and answer specific questions from her on specified "check in" dates and if she gets nutty during a check-in, then I will whip out the psuedo-socratic questioning to keep her at bay.

 

20 hours ago, Spudater said:

I feel like you and my dh should commiserate over a beer or something. 😉. I NEVER feel like I’m doing enough in any area of my life and he has to talk me down once amonth or so. If she’s prone to anxiety and perfectionism, like I am, making such a major life change may have kicked it into overdrive. 
Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t set boundaries, though, but you’ve already gotten a lot of good advice on that. 🙂 

I'm 10 years, 10 months and 1 week sober so I can't drink, but I do commiserate from the bottom of my heart. I am certain that Relatives husband would not put up with this level of nuttery about home school, which is part of the reason that I'm so deeply in this mess.

 

[Gil]

So, Relative called me to ask me a question and I just deflected the conversation at every turn. Finally she said" So you're really not going to help me, huh?"
I'm a fairly direct and straight-forward person. So it's really noticeable to anyone who knows me when I'm not being straight-forward and direct.

I told her "Look, Relative, I am helping you. You don't have to accept it, but at this point, this is what my help looks like. If you want to do something different, do it. If you want to do what I advise, follow the instructions and process that I've given you. But I can't help you with over-complicating a simple process. I've had long-term success with adhering to a simple process, but you do you.

We discussed current events for 10 minutes and she got off the phone. Finally. I just have to keep this up for the next 40 days. *long suffering sigh*

On 2/22/2020 at 9:01 AM, Spudater said:

Sorry about that. Congrats on staying sober!

There is no need to apologize and thanks for the congrats. My sobriety is one of my proudest accomplishments. It's not like I was really going to come over to your house just to drink and commiserate with your DH anyway, but I'm not shy, sad, hesitant or ashamed to say that I'm sober when someone offers me alcohol. Also, I won't lie. I'm stoked that I can say I'm 10+ years sober. I have probably mentioned it more this year than the last 4 or 5 years combined.

[kiwik]

10 years is a significant time.

[Gil]

On 2/21/2020 at 9:19 AM, annegables said:

Care to share here? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

On 2/21/2020 at 10:33 AM, domestic_engineer said:

I would guess that she's just lacking confidence and afraid of making a mistake.  AND she has *you* to compare herself to; I'm even intimidated to compare myself to you!  You seem to have it all together and your kids are obviously thriving.  She probably just needs some encouragement to keep trying and taking one step at a time and she'll eventually find the groove that works for *her* family.  And hey - a journal would be a great way to look back in a year to see how she's grown!

Re: Comparisons.
In general comparisons don't do a ton of good for anyone and are more likely to cause harm than they are to have no effect. Comparing can be helpful to know where your kids are in relation to societal expectations/standards at large and of course it's helpful to know where they are in your sequence of study for your particular goals, but beyond that then what is the good of comparing yourself, not just to others, but to a highly niche sample such as another home school?

I think that I'm more content because, for the most part,  I design the gaps that are or will be in The Boys primary education. I know where I am placing the gaps and so the fact that they exist or will exist doesn't bother me. It can't. I'm just one guy, there are only 24 hours in my day. During those hours I still have to parent, have family time, eat, sleep, work, run errands, and so forth. It's important to me that The Boys get a significant portion of those hours  to be kids or learn things that I can't be absorbed at a school table. 

I committed early on to giving them the highest quality education that I can. Using the skills, experiences knowledge and resources that I have or can obtain. If I focused instead on trying to give them  a education that is well rounded--as defined by others--then I would lose out on the option of giving them a higher-quality oblong education.  I avoid trying to give The Boys a "well rounded" education. I am giving my kids the highest quality education that I can give them. If they really want to fit through round holes, then have the skills, support and the time to pursue rounding themselves off on their own.
 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Gil

[domestic_engineer]

2 minutes ago, Gil said:

Re: Comparisons.
In general comparisons don't do a ton of good for anyone and are more likely to cause harm than they are to have no effect. Comparing can be helpful to know where your kids are in relation to societal expectations/standards at large and of course it's helpful to know where they are in your sequence of study for your particular goals, but beyond that then what is the good of comparing yourself, not just to others, but to a highly niche sample such as another home school?

I think that I'm more content because, for the most part,  I design the gaps that are or will be in The Boys primary education. I know where I am placing the gaps and so the fact that they exist or will exist doesn't bother me. It can't. I'm just one guy, there are only 24 hours in my day. During those hours I still have to parent, have family time, eat, sleep, work, run errands, and so forth. It's important to me that The Boys get a significant portion of those hours  to be kids or learn things that I can't be absorbed at a school table. 

I committed early on to giving them the highest quality education that I can. Using the skills, experiences knowledge and resources that I have or can obtain. If I focused instead on trying to give them  a education that is well rounded--as defined by others--then I would lose out on the option of giving them a higher-quality oblong education.  I avoid trying to give The Boys a "well rounded" education. I am giving my kids the highest quality education that I can give them. If they really want to fit through round holes, then have the skills, support and the time to pursue rounding themselves off on their own.
 

Yes, that is very well-said.  But I think this perspective is not present in the majority of parents as they begin their homeschool journey.  Even if you look at experienced homeschool parents, only a portion will come to this conclusion, but that doesn't diminish your wisdom above.

[vonbon]

On 2/20/2020 at 9:04 PM, Gil said:

I have given her a copy of my Homeschool Commandments.

 

Another request: Any chance you'd be willing to post?  I'm so intrigued!  

*******

FWIW, I've been homeschooling for 7 years and drove my DH nuts for the first 2-ish years.  He's had to cut me off many times over the years.  😆 Actually, he had to stop me on a regular basis until about 2 years ago.  What you said about the possibility of her DH not being "available" in that way and you filling in rings true.  Very patient guy.  

Same scenario happened with a friend of mine...we discussed homeschooling for years...I wrote out, linked, emailed, discussed, listened to and provided a ton of ideas and suggestions...all the ins and outs...all the details and what ifs... Her DH was not interested on a detailed level.  It all ramped up the summer before they pulled DC out of school...  I was happy to help my friend and she has good boundaries, so I never felt inundated.  She didn't know and homeschoolers and didn't have much support in the decision (same way I started out).

They homeschooled for a few months and then returned to PS.  I tried to detach myself emotionally from the whole process and tried to remain an objective / non-judgy supporter of what would be best for their family.  But on some level, I'm a bit sad / miffed because I think they could have gotten so much out of the journey and repaired some of the social / behavioral issues that are cropping up with DC due to the PS environment.  I have to let it all go and not regret the sheer number of hours spent "coaching"...  The friendship is built on many things, so it will remain strong.  It's probably natural to feel a bit disappointed when you pour out over time and the ideas / discussions don't come to fruition or aren't put to use / real life...

[vonbon]

Not to sound harsh or flippant, but it seems like, for all / most? homeschoolers, at some point, one is either going to "sink or swim".  The person in charge (usually but not always Mom) has to make the decision to just persevere and make it happen.  Perhaps this looks different if a person has a ton of support (DH who is involved in academic details, MIL who takes on part of teaching, $$ to outsource subjects, etc.)? 

Not to get too far off the topic...  Just musing about those who "make it" or continue to persevere in the face of all the insecurities and anxieties and initial process OP has described.  I'm not entirely sure how I made it through the part OP is describing...  I didn't have anyone like OP to bounce things off of.  These boards were a ***humongous*** help (thank you!) and I think sheer doggedness and desire to provide some very specific things (academics, faith formation, homelife) to DC were keys.  

(My brain's not fully awake...not sure I'm writing this clearly--)

[vonbon]

Just reviewed the thread and saw the 10 Commandments...Love those!!!!!!!!!!!  Thanks!!!!!  👏❤️

I'm going to print those out for a quick glance and a good laugh when I'm planning each week!  😆

[ktgrok]

Maybe encourage her to start writing down or making a folder or bookmarsk on the computer or whatever of all these great ideas so that when she goes to plan NEXT YEAR she has a list she can work from. Just do the basics this year, see what works, take notes, and then she can use all that new great stuff for NEXT YEAR. By then she may be over it, lol.